Does patriotism bug you?

[Gothic Sponge]

I'm not saying it's wrong to feel pride for your country. I just never understood the "us against them" mentality. It'at all levels of life. I remember when i was in high school "our school can kick their school's ass!" and "our town is better than your town!" "Our state is better than your state!" and so on. Maybe i'm too damn utopianistic.

[DebJ]

1. 'I'm better than you" does not strike me as a definition of

patriotism....not American historical patriotism, anyway, which to me was more along the lines of sharing our blessings with those in less fortunate places.

[DebJ]

2. Your description is better for 'bigotry' or 'ethnocentrism'

[Mr. Blonde]

3. Yeah, but seriously

my school can kick your schools ass.

[Gothic Sponge]

8. True

However, i'm not talking about open-minded people (most on DU) i'm talking about the average American that has hijacked what patriotism once stood for.

[0007]

87. I goes hand in hand, think about it!!

Believing in the superiority of one's own state of being is part of the same act as patriotism.

[WindRavenX]

4. You're confusing, as many are, Nationalism with Patriotism

There's nothing wrong with patriotism. I love my country. But I am not blind to the faults of my country...
Nationalism, on the other hand, is what you speak of: "us v.s. them" "my country, right or wrong". That kind of crap. If you can stomach it, watch FOX News for that kind of crap. But real patriotism has lost its meaning...

[Gothic Sponge]

16. Good point

Thanks

[Solon]

18. What's the difference?

na·tion·al·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nsh-n-lzm, nshn-)
n.

1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.

pa·tri·ot·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr--tzm)
n.

Love of and devotion to one's country.

[Raskolnik]

21. See below.

I didn't see your posts before, but you may be interested in my post below.

Thanks.

[WindRavenX]

22. Yes but

I would argue the difference in the degree of fevor. In which case, nationalism has the more...ah, intense element to it. Nationalism also seems to be, well, more of a collective mindset, whereas patriotism is more individual oriented, IMO.

[Raskolnik]

24. Don't agree.

I would argue that it is a difference in kind, not in degree.

(I will concede that at some point a difference in degree BECOMES a difference in kind, but we'll set that aside for a moment)

Because Nationalism and Patriotism are based on different things and are manifested by different actions, I would say that increased Patriotism does not beget Nationalism.

[JohnLocke]

36. You're confusing, as many are, jingoism with nationalism.

[primavera]

46. Well put

I always make a strenuous point in conversations of insisting that I am a patriotic American, precisely because I criticize the shrub and his neocon ilk for doing their damndest to undermine the very things that made this country great and worthy of worldwide respect, for the sake of those things that make us a country to be feared. Patriotrism is not about brainless flag-waving and jingoism; I flatly, categorically refuse to allow repukes to abscond with yet another perfectly legitimate word in the English language and corrupt it for use as a political weapon.

[greekspeak]

60. Good point

Nationalism is like patriotism on roids. Welling up when you hear the national anthem is Patriotism. Demanding complete allegiance to the strongest single national leader is nationalism.

Telling people who disagree with you to move to Afghanastan is nationalism. Encouraging those who seek to become American citizens is patriotism.

Remembering the sacrifices of those who died defending our rights is patriotism. Using the names of those who died defending our rights to demand total allegiance to one ideology is nationalism.

Learning about the true history of one's country, good and bad, is patriotism. Blindly spouting empty jingoism you found on the internet is nationalism.

[Gore1FL]

84. Nationalism vs Patriotism

Nationalism == My country, right or wrong

Patriotism == My Country, lets make sure its right

[SarahB]

78. I was going to say something along these lines.

:thumbsup:

[indypaul]

5. As someone once said,

"Being patriotic and being a Christian is a lot like being
ladylike. The more you try to convince me you are the
more I believe you ain't." Pretty much applies to the
present day "patriots" and bible thumpers in my estimation.

[samhonk]

6. No.

But jingoism sure does. The sort of thing you're describing is, in my opinion, not patriotism but purest jingo.

I've never understood the desperate need to have an enemy. I don't think you're too utopian.

[Tyler Durden]

7. No you're not, and yes it does bug me.

Patriotism, as it has become: the flashy and well-dressed cousin of Nationalism (and now, Neofascism) has become as irrelavent as Britain is becoming to the European Union.

Interesting you see the violent Winner/Loser dynamic inherent in all competition. When there is one winner and 10,000 losers, then the system needs a revision.

My prediction: some form of world "socialism" by 100 years from now, with the concept of world harmony well intrenched,

or,

THE NEW DARK AGE.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

9. Not really...there are positive and negative types of patriotism.

I think the lyrics to Finlandia say it best...they are patriotic, but also universal...


This is my song, O God of all the nations
A song of peace for lands afar and mine
This is my home, the country where my heart is
Here are my hopes and dreams, my holy shrine
But other hearts in other lands are beating
With hopes and dreams as true and high as mine.
My country's skies are bluer than the ocean
And sunlight beams on clover leaf and pine
But other lands have sunlight, too, and clover
And skies are everywhere as blue as mine
O hear my song, thou God of all the nations
A song of peace for their land and for mine.

[DebJ]

14. Wow that's beautiful! Thanks for sharing!

[Suspicious]

10. What we're witnessing in this country is not patriotism.

It is rabid nationalism. It's dangerous.

[stevedeshazer]

15. Whoops, that's it

It's not patriotism, it is NATIONALISM.

[mmonk]

11. Patriotism for the old republic doesn't

I don't feel any pride for this new America. It is foreign in its ideas.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. It does if

it is taken to an extreme.

---------------------
An open letter to John Kerry and the DNC:
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/OpenLetter.htm

[Berserker]

13. Are you a sports fan?

Vikings RULE packers Suck! Is that what you mean? And yes I am Patriotic I am an American and I love my country I can't help it if it's being run by bunch of Neocon Bastards but I still Love my country. We just need to change things! And change things we will!

[Solon]

17. I don't understand Collective pride myself...

so I am not a patriot, I cannot say I am Proud to be American no more than I can say I am proud to be white. Nationalism and Patriotism are basically the same in this regard, the only difference are the actions taken to present this point of view. Patriotism is not the last refuge of a scoundrel it is the first, as someone used to say. I would say that it is simply primitive tribalism repackaged. In the past, tribalism allowed humans to survive in a harsh world where we were physically weak but at the same time extremely innovative. Now it will lead to our extinction if we don't fight it, through our own arrogance and stupidity.

[Djinn]

47. Ditto!

I've never understood "proud of my country" what exactly are you suposed to proud of, the people that live there? (surely both good and bad) it's history (surely both good and bad) the flora and fauna, weather (all good and bad)

and even if one is from a magical land with nothing but nice people and non lethal animals and a blemish free history - how can one be proud that one happens to have been born there??

[dolo amber]

57. Precisely

That's exactly how I feel...no, I'm not 'proud to be an American'...If I've felt anything in that regard it's more often been shame than pride. But for the biggest part of the time I could really care less either way...what am I supposed to be *proud* of? That my dad knocked up my mom and then she bore me on American soil? Cos that's really about all it took to make me an *AMERICAN*...

Whatever. :eyes:

[Vickers]

19. No. Fake patriotism does.

"Look, look! I have TWO lapel flags!!!"

:eyes:

[Raskolnik]

20. Patriotism vs. Nationalism

I believe what you dislike is Nationalism, not Patriotism.

The British historian John Lukacs does the best work I've seen making the distinction between the two. Nationalism is usually marked by aggression, a shared sense of racial or ethnic destiny, and sublimation of individual identity in favor the the group.

Patriotism, on the other hand, is based on the love of one's country and shared values. It can emphasize positive aspects of one's country without needing a foil.

I think a good way to think of the two is to remember that Churchill was a Patriot and Hitler was a Nationalist.

[JohnLocke]

37. What he dislikes is jingoism.

[Djinn]

48. but how is that possible

"Patriotism, on the other hand, is based on the love of one's country and shared values"

the values that people at DU cvonsider shared values are markedly different to those folks a freeville, who gets to be right?

[JohnLocke]

93. Not necessarily.

Differing political opinions don't necessarily preclude shared national values.

[myomy]

23. Patriotism is love of country, not love of government.

.

[WLKjr]

25. They way I feel

I disgust those who are all gung ho support the prez no matter if he is wrong kill kill kill.

Funny thing is when the finger gets pointed at them.....who shits thier pants first???? that's right, the flag waver so called patriot.


The True patriot has love for ones country and it's peoples rights and will fight to the death for them. Also is one who has a very high sense of integrety and honesty along with goodwill towards his/her fellow citizens and works together for the common good.


Blind Patriotism reminds me of Nationalists, Facists, and Communists
.

[Berserker]

26. WLKjr

:yourock:

[WLKjr]

35. Thank you but

I am just another citizen, just like you.

(I tend to blush and cowar when complimented, I always have becuase I just do and say what I feel is right, that's all.)

[Jade Fox]

27. Patriotism as it is currently practiced...

seems to have very little to do with love of country (how come all those
self-proclaimed Patriots seem to dislike so many Americans?) and is mostly
about giving ourselves permission to kill people in other countries.

After 9/11, when flags were going up all over my neighborhood, I knew
we were making ourselves feel okay so we could start the killing.
And I wasn't wrong.

[Raskolnik]

28. Then it really isn't Patriotism, is it?

That's the problem when people confuse the two.

[Jade Fox]

31. No, its Nationalism. People in this country are deeply confused...

about the difference between the two.

A dialog desparately needs to be started in this country about this.
Since you have clearly thought a lot about the issue, write an email
and send it to columnists who seem like they might be receptive.
Joel Connelly would be a good start. Lots of others come to mind--
Steve Chapman, Eric Alterman, etc.

Good luck! We will all owe you one! :)

[Art_from_Ark]

105. People are confused because of the ambiguity of the terms

Essentially, "patriotism" has its roots in the Greek, while "nationalism" is rooted in the Latin, and they both refer to love for country (the land of one's birth). Webster's New World dictionary defines "patriotism" as "love and loyal or zealous suppoort of one's country", while "nationalism" is defined as an exact synonym of "patriotism" in meaning 1a, while in 1b it is defined as "excessive, narrow, or jingoistic patriotism".

The connotations of "jingoism", however, are decidedly unambiguous, as it is "boasting of patriotism and favoring an aggressive, threatening, warlike foreign policy; chauvinism".

[mwar]

29. It's all been perverted...

Patriotism is now a Republican loyalty oath.
Flag waving is dick waving.

[LearnedHand]

72. HAR-HAR-HAR!!!

Flag-waving. Dick-waving. NOW I get it. <<<< slaps knee and wipes tears from eyes >>>>

[Obamarama]

30. My paper is publishing my LTTE on this very subject this week.

Ever since George W. Bush made his foray into Iraq, it has become increasingly fashionable and acceptable to refer to those of us who oppose the Iraqi war as “unpatriotic.” For me, Linda Leonard’s May 30 letter to the editor was the last straw.

Leonard’s letter took Minority House Leader Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) to task for criticizing the Bush administration’s war in Iraq. She didn’t say so in as many words, but I’m willing to bet Leonard’s implication is that Rep. Pelosi is unpatriotic. What’s worse, she thinks Pelosi’s opinions are actually dangerous to our country. On the contrary, I believe Leonard’s views are the ones that are dangerous, and part of what I see as a disturbing trend evolving in our country.

Before pledging blind support for the actions and policies of any president, Republican or Democrat, I implore Ms. Leonard, and all Americans, to closely examine the subtle but vast differences between patriotism and nationalism.

Patriotism requires of its adherents serious, analytical, rational thought. Nationalism, on the other hand, demands that the people not give any serious thought to the affairs of the government and instead, wrap themselves in the flag and let someone else do their thinking for them.

Patriotism encourages thoughtful disagreement because those who cherish it understand the positive results that come the confluence of ideas and opinions.

Patriotism isn’t threatened with the creative chaos that comes from a confluence of differing viewpoints; it understands that freedom and liberty sometimes are messy. Nationalism fears dissent and requires conformity of thought. That’s why it produces hollow, lock-step slogans like "America - Love It or Leave It," or "My Country, Right or Wrong."

Patriotism doesn't play an all-or-nothing game, but rather seeks answers that simultaneously benefit our nation’s interests and those of the rest of the world. Nationalism believes it can win only if others lose.

In a nutshell, patriotism seeks to win the both the hearts and minds of the people. Nationalism seeks to win only hearts; check your brain at the door please

Ms. Leonard’s statements, undoubtedly fueled by her own sense of “patriotism,” would give the Bush administration permission and authority to act as it sees fit without the need to answer to anyone but themselves. Anyone truly motivated by patriotism would never make such statements, much less write about them in their local newspaper.

Nationalism camouflaged as patriotism has enabled leaders throughout history to rise to power and exert their narrow, self-serving agendas over millions, all in the name of the Fatherland, the Motherland, or as in our present case, the Homeland. This faux-patriotic mindset demands that we support the decisions of our leaders without question, regardless of how malignant their objectives might be. It’s both dangerous and alarming that those like Rep. Pelosi are consistently and openly attacked as unpatriotic enemies of the state by nationalists in patriot’s clothing.

To subscribe to the pure brand of patriotism upon which our great nation was founded, we must be free to think, speak and act as individual patriots. Until such time that our constitutional rights are sufficiently gutted by the contradictory “Patriot Act,” I am compelled to remind Ms. Leonard and those of her ilk that patriotic Americans still have the right and obligation to determine for ourselves the difference between a justifiable war of self-defense, and one of pillage devoid of principle or righteous cause.

[Poiuyt]

32. I like Mark Twain's definition of patriotism

"Patriotism is loving your country all the time and your government when it deserves it."

[Jade Fox]

34. Then there is the ever popular.....

"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel"--Samuel Johnson

[Mechatanketra]

38. We need more Mark Twains.

In fact, here's a little more Twain on the same subject.

In the public schools we teach our children to salute the flag, and this is our idea of instilling in them patriotism. And this so-called patriotism we mistake for citizenship; but if there is a stain on that flag it ought not to be honored, even if it is our flag. The true citizenship is to protect the flag from that dishonor -- to make it the emblem of a nation that is known to all nations as true and honest and honorable.

And:

Citizenship should be placed above everything else, even learning. Is there in any college of the land a chair of citizenship where good citizenship and all that it implies is taught? There is not one--that is, not one where sane citizenship is taught. There are some which teach insane citizenship, bastard citizenship, but that is all. Patriotism! Yes; but patriotism is usually the refuge of the scoundrel. He is the man who talks the loudest.

Good stuff. Practically all the (serious) discussion in these forums can be boiled down to the reactions of sane citizenship to insane citizenship.

[HEyHEY]

33. Sort of

When I was younger I used to say "Canadians aren't patriotic enough"
But then Molson started this serioes of ads which seemed to make the whole country overpatriotic and it bugged me.

But when it comes to hockey watch out cause I'm like a freeper in mating season.

[slinkerwink]

39. it's not patroitism...it's jingoism that bothers me

[InformedSource]

40. "God bless America" bugs me.

I think God has blessed America way too much and should ought to spread blessings around to some of the rest of the world.

I'm not patriotic. I don't choke up when I hear the national anthem (my WWII generation parents do) or when I see the flag flying.

But I understand that other people aren't like me and they do respond to these things.

[IranianDemocrat]

45. Too bad...

You should love the country and what it stands for, I'm sure glad that I have freedoms here my relatives only dream of abroad. Don't take the freedoms for granted, and don't let Ashkroft take them away.

[Djinn]

49. what does it stand for

there isn't one set of things a nation stands for. What YOU beleive the USA stands for is disputed by others. How does one "love" a country.

You can happy that one lives in a nation where you wont get shot for saying what you think (you may be arrested on suspiscion of being a terrorist however) but that isn't pride - how can you be proud of something that existed before you were born, that you had no hand in creating?

[Raskolnik]

52. At our best.

Do you have any conception of what the rest of the world is like? We SHOULD be proud of our country. We have our problems, certainly, but at our best, our nation's ideals are the pinnacle of human freedom and we should be proud of them.

Being proud isn't limited by what you had a hand in directly accomplishing. I'm proud of my grandparents for coming through the Depression and then winning WWII, and I'm proud of my parents for being decent honest people. I don't find anything wrong with being proud of them, but I certainly can't take credit for their actions.

[Djinn]

62. Guarantee that I've not only SEEN more of the world

than you I've also LIVED in more of it than you. So yes I have a pretty good idea but condescension is always a good argument.

There are MANY nations with more "freedoms" than you.

Do you think the ideals YOU value as part of US heritage are the same ones freepers value? are they not as American as you? which values are the important ones, the defining ones. "Freedom" is a little vague and NOT exclusive to the USA.

[Raskolnik]

63. Testy, aren't you?

I'm not sure of your point.

In your extensive world travels, what places in particular outshine the U.S. in their history of liberty?

Just curious.

[Djinn]

67. me testy?

I'm not the one who started with the "do you have any concept" line of haughty questioning

First of all yuo need to defibne "liberty" I'm presuming you mean freedom to criticise one's government, the right to a free trial by a jury of one's peers, the right to legal representation, the right to own propery - just as a start

Australia
New Zealand
Switzerland
Germany
UK
Ireland
Canada

Those are just one's I've lived in - tell me have you ever been outside the US

If we're talking about history - again not something you had anything to do with - please tell me how the slave trade was a demonstration of "liberty" tell me how persistent support for dictators overseas demonstrates a "love of liberty"

No-one ever said there are no "good" things about the US, just that there are plenty of "bad" things too are you "ashamed" as well as "proud" if not how is it you can be "proud" without feeling concomitant shame? are the "bad" things irrelevant?

Interesting that you joined DU on the day of the great Reagan wars?!?

[Raskolnik]

68. We can do this.

All right lets start this over and be civil to each other this time, agreed?

I did not at any time suggest ignoring the bad things in our past. A mature patriotism requires the honest examination of what our country's past holds. I just think it is silly and rather counter-productive to think that we shouldn't be proud of the good things our country has done and good people who made them possible. If we ignore those things, I believe we stop trying to maintain them.

You questioned how a person could be "proud" of something they didn't have a hand in creating, and I believe I offered some good examples of how it is possible to do just that. I am exceedingly proud that the U.S. has been a fairly successful experiment in liberal democracy for a while now and most likely will continue to be so. Is that crazy?

Out of your list of countries (what are you, Bill Bryson?), they certainly share a western, liberal bent with the U.S. What they also share is a checkered past (some more checkered than others). Are you arguing that these places are somehow free of the maladies that you pointed out for the U.S.? Keep in mind one of them is Germany. (Germany! for God's sake!)

I hope you understand that I am not arguing that the "best" is an objective standard that can be proven mathematically. I realize it is subjective, and that is why I'm arguing my case rather than implying that its fact.

[Djinn]

74. that's exactly my point

yes those countries have dodgy pasts, some of them have yet to accept that and make amends (Australia has an atrocious record in dealing with the indigenous population) - so does the USA - very few of the slaves thought much of the US experiment in liberal democracy.

I doubt many non whites up till the early 70's thought much of it either. It's NOT a democracy when large sections of teh population are refused (or effectively barred from) the vote.

Any "pride" felt in a country (and again being conceived and born somewhere is an accident of chance) is surely tempered by an equal amount of "shame" in it - don't they cancel each other out.

[Raskolnik]

75. No, they don't cancel each other out.

I would agree with you if I thought the scales were balanced between the good the U.S. has done and the bad. (both slippery terms, I know) But I don't think that even for a second. For all the evil in our country's past, we have always maintained a momentum toward increased liberty.

We made it through the Civil War, the Depression, and WWII with our Constitution intact and freedom's preserved or enhanced. That is nothing to sneeze at. Even though we've got a long way to go, just think how far we've come just in the last hunded years...quite a damn ways in my opinion.

I am curious if you feel it would be appropriate to feel pride in the overall accomplishments of any nation in the world, or do you feel that every nation bears too much baggage to merit it?

[Djinn]

76. No I don't

my stance isn't an anti-US one - I'm not "proud" of being a citizen of either of the two nations that I hold a passport too.

Being born of Scottish parents had ZERO to do with me, they moved to Australia and got citzenship on my behalf when I was a kid - I can't really be "proud" of it - I had nothing to do with it.

That's the real reason I don't consider myself "patriotic" not because I think "my" country is "bad or "good" just that it a term that really means nothing.

Although I'd argue that "For all the evil in our country's past, we have always maintained a momentum toward increased liberty." that's true when applied to white males, it's a pertty recent development for others. It's also certainly not exclusive to the US.

[Raskolnik]

77. A question of terms then.

"that's true when applied to white males"

I wholeheartedly disagree. I am the first (ok, not the first, but I'm at least in line) to agree that the U.S. has a history of not living up to the ideals of its founding. When I say the momentum is toward increased liberty, I mean that with a few notable exceptions, we have been getting closer and closer to those ideals.

Its demonstrably true that we've progressed from a society that only allowed white male property owners to vote to one that embraces universal suffrage. That's a good progression, no matter how you look at it. We've got to measure our progress both against our ideals (in which case we've still got some distance to travel) and the backdrop of world society (in which case we've got reason to be proud)

C'mon man, give it a try: "Say It Loud!: I'm_a_Scottish_Australian_American_Citizen_And_I'm Proud!"

See, that was fun, wasn't it?

[Djinn]

79. Except that I'm not and never will be

and American citizen, and I wont be mouthing meaningless platitudes about Aus or Scotland anytime soon.

[Raskolnik]

81. Call the airline!

Did you check you sense of humor at customs and forget to pick it up on one of your trips?

Jeez man, lighten up. That was supposed to be a joke (James Brown? "I'm Black And I'm Proud"? Familiar?...)

[Djinn]

82. must be a cultural thing

we tend to laugh at funny stuff !

[Raskolnik]

88. Yeah, the culture of friggin' HILARIOUS!

Oh my god! You really aren't capable of laughing at yourself, are you?

When did *dour* become the default position for an international jet-setter such as yourself? Live a little! The world is your oyster, apparently.

[Djinn]

89. Like YOUR sense of humour

over the Reagan threads that had you pissing in your pants about what the freepers would say about us.

Now THEY were funny posts. Give it up sad case

[Raskolnik]

97. Did I offend you with my CRAZY decorum?

Was I speaking to you in this thread?

By the way, if you actually have something of value to offer on the whole Reagan subject, why don't you contribute to the thread trying to find constructuve outlets for that passion.

Or you can just keep bitching about how terrible it is to be asked to act like a decent human being. Your choice really.

[Djinn]

101. "be decent be decent the freepers are coming" YAWN

[Raskolnik]

106. Do you have an example?

When did I express concern over the people at FR? Or are you just making that up?

[T Town Jake]

103. Gawd, but you're nasty...

...I thought accusing someone of being a "Freeper" was not allowed here, BTW. At least I think that's what the rules I read said... You're trying to get around that rule by sly implication, which is pretty cowardly, IMO.
You need to ease up.

[DNA]

53. As it happens

my relatives come from a country in Western Europe where, in many respects, they have more freedoms than we do here. This makes me envious, not vain and arrogant.

It's all relative, of course, but I think patriotism is part of the problem, not the solution. What passes for patriotism here and in most countries is really a sort of silly egocentrism. It's self-worship, not a struggle for freedom, as you suggest. Someone posted a Mark Twain definition. The Twain definition of patriotism I remember is that patriotism = the belief that your country is better than all the rest because you happen to live here. Sounds about right.

[InformedSource]

41. "God bless America" bugs me.

I think God has blessed America way too much and should ought to spread blessings around to some of the rest of the world.

I'm not patriotic. I don't choke up when I hear the national anthem (my WWII generation parents do) or when I see the flag flying.

But I understand that other people aren't like me and they do respond to these things.

[JCMach1]

42. Don't confuse patriotism with Fascism

they aren't the same thing

:)

[Just Me]

43. I am loyal to the principles of democracy and justice and equality.

My loyalty precludes anyone who acts against such principles,...and extends to all those who advocate for such basic values.

[July]

51. I like the way you put it, Just Me.

And I find your statement much more comfortable than "I love my country." For me "love" doesn't have anything to do with my relationship with my country, but I feel very strongly about the system we've set up in our constitution, which is one that has been embraced in other countries, as well.

Thank you for your succinct expression of a rational belief.

[JohnLocke]

44. No.

[MI Cherie]

50. It used to be ...

... considered to be your patriotic duty to vote and pay taxes.

It was the price one paid for the freedom to live in a civilized society.

It was un-patriotic and disrespectful to desecrate the flag as some have done with the "false patriotism" of today.

It would have been considered un-American to move a company overseas to avoid paying fair wages or taxes.

Could it be the more people don't vote or want to pay taxes, the more uncivilized they become?

:shrug:

[Delano]

54. "My Country Right or Wrong" is NOT patriotic.

If you truly love your country, you expect it to be the best it can be, and will work to that end, not support it in any idiotic war it decides to declare. We are critical of Germans who did and said nothing during the Nazi rise and atrocities, but then ridicule (or worse) those who would protest American wars of aggression overseas.

But chauvinism of this sort is not a uniquely American trait, we just haven't been smacked down as often as other countries, so we've yet to learn any humility.

(Here's the part where the right-wingers say "See! The liberals WANT us to LOSE the WAR!" - missing the point entirely...)

[PROGRESSIVE1]

55. "Us against Them" is no Patriotism, it's NATIONALISM!

[JohnLocke]

96. No, that's jingoism.

[Cleita]

56. Not genuine patriotism, like we have here at DU.

Most of us are really concerned about the direction our country is going in and that to me is real patriotism. Waving flags and coopting tired platitudes to prop up a bunch of criminals who have taken our government hostage is not true patriotism and it's digusting to watch.

[Zen]

58. Patriotism, as abused by the Reicht, is a way to mind control

stupid "rednecks" into thinking they are getting something from their Repuke party. These ignorant people feel like they get a certain "power" to compete with us "elitist" (intelligent) Democrats by using these symbols as a "divider" between "us and "them". It's so silly it borders on the retarded - but without mindless morons there wouldn't be much in the way of a Repuke party so...?

[DNA]

59. Quotes on patriotism and nationalism

(who said what matters less than the message, I think)

Patriotism ... is a superstition artificially created and maintained through a network of lies and falsehoods; a superstition that robs man of his self-respect and dignity, and increases his arrogance and conceit.
Nationalism is a silly cock crowing on his own dunghill.
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you were born in it.
A nation is a society united by a delusion about its ancestry and by common hatred of its neighbours.
Patriotism is proud of a country's virtues and eager to correct its deficiencies; it also acknowledges the legitimate patriotism of other countries, with their own specific virtues. The pride of nationalism, however, trumpets its country's virtues and denies its deficiencies, while it is contemptuous toward the virtues of other countries. It wants to be, and proclaims itself to be, "the greatest," but greatness is not required of a country; only goodness is.
The most tragic paradox of our time is to be found in the failure of nation-states to recognize the imperatives of internationalism.
Patriotism ruins history.
Patriotism, the virtue of the vicious.
He is a poor patriot whose patriotism does not enable him to understand how all men everywhere feel about their altars and their hearthstones, their flag and their fatherland.
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country and mankind its citizens.
To him in whom love dwells, the whole world is but one family.
In the United States, doing good has come to be, like patriotism, a favorite device of persons with something to sell.
I have no country to fight for; my country is the earth, and I am a citizen of the world.
The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naïve and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
The stench of the trail of Ego in our History. It is ego - ego, the fountain cry, origin, sole source of war.
I have no sense of nationalism, only a cosmic consciousness of belonging to the human family.
Men in authority will always think that criticism of their policies is dangerous. They will always equate their policies with patriotism, and find criticism subversive.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
Our country is the world, our countrymen are all mankind. We love the land of our nativity, only as we love all other lands. The interests, rights, and liberties of American citizens are no more dear to us than are those of the whole human race. Hence we can allow no appeal to patriotism, to revenge any national insult or injury.
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong.
You'll never have a quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are hatched.
I am not an Athenian or a Greek, I am a citizen of the world.
It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a single small globe against the stars.
Patriotism is often an arbitrary veneration of real estate above principles.
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind.
During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism.
Heroism on command, senseless violence, and all the loathsome nonsense that goes by the name of patriotism - how passionately I hate them!
Can anything be stupider than that a man has the right to kill me because he lives on the other side of a river and his ruler has a quarrel with mine, though I have not quarrelled with him?
I love America more than any other country in this world, and, exactly for this reason, I insist on the right to criticize her perpetually.
The government is merely a servant -- merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.
What is patriotism but the love of the food one ate as a child?
Patriotic societies seem to think that the way to educate school children in a democracy is to stage bigger and better flag-saluting.
If you want a symbolic gesture, don't burn the flag; wash it.
To me, it seems a dreadful indignity to have a soul controlled by geography.
The love of one's country is a splendid thing. But why should love stop at the border?
Patriotism is the willingness to kill and be killed for trivial reasons.
If I knew something that would serve my country but would harm mankind, I would never reveal it; for I am a citizen of humanity first and by necessity, and a citizen of France second, and only by accident.
When a whole nation is roaring Patriotism at the top of its voice, I am fain to explore the cleanness of its hands and the purity of its heart.
Patriotism... is not short, frenzied outbursts of emotion, but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime.
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

61. In America, patriotism (wanting what's best for your country)

is too often confused with

1. chauvinism: "This is the greatest country in the world and all other countries suck and should be glad we let them stay on the same planet as us!"

or

2. militarism: "You're patriotic if wave the flag a lot and fight in whatever stupid wars come up during your lifetime or at least rant a lot about 'kicking ______ ass."

Those are the two perversions of patriotism that infuriate me.

[Darranar]

64. Blind, arrogant patriots bother me a lot...

people who refuse to hear any criticism of their nation/state/school/etc.

[DemoTex]

65. Jingoism, a trump card of Reagan and Bu$h, bothers me.

Patriotism, as I understand it after 250 combat missions in Vietnam, does not.

[baldguy]

66. Thoughtless patriotism bugs me.

Patriotism of the mob. Patriotism without sense, or reason, or humility.

America is better than that.

[JanMichael]

69. "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel."

Hope I was the first one to post that beauty....

[Walt Starr]

70. Patriotism is a cool thing

All the Faux patriotism going on in this country bugs the shit outta me, though.

[LearnedHand]

71. Let me count the ways!!!

Jee-zus! What a topic. "Bug" is too mild a word. "Anger on a very deep, atavistic level" is a bit closer to the truth.

I teach Freshman English at a local community college, and whenever we examine how language is used to control and/or create behaviors or beliefs, I always make the students define "patriotism." I live in a fairly liberal state, but there are always three or four who believe patriotism means agreeing with the president and his policies no matter what.

I just do NOT get it how the nationalistic zealots (oh, did I mean patriots?) are unable to see how close we are to goose-stepping and zeig-heiling. :scared:

[jakefrep]

73. I'm sick and tired

of the "America's shit doesn't stink" crowd bitching about the so-called "Blame America First" folks.

[burrowowl]

80. No but chauvinism does

and chauvinism is what passes for patriotism today.

[Gore1FL]

83. Patriotism is great Nationalism is the problem

IMHO.

On edit -- I missed it, but this is discussed above in greater detail.

[JohnLocke]

94. Nationalism is not the problem.

Nationalism isn't inherently bad. Jingoism is:

"Nationalism is a frequently misunderstood term as its most general definition is broad and has been controversial throughout history. Often the most negative consequences of the clash of nationalisms, ethnic tension, war, and political conflicts within states, are taken for nationalism itself. Under many definitions, nationalism does not necessarily imply that one nation is better than another, simply that nations are better off when they are permitted to govern themselves, following their own political, economic, and cultural interests independently. Jingoism is a more extreme ideology that emphasizes the superiority of one nation over another."
Wikipedia

Jingoism is a term describing chauvinistic patriotism, especially with regard to a warmongering political stance.
Wikipedia

[timtom]

85. Territoriality

is a function of the reptilian brain stem. It's an evolutionary hold-over. (Hopefully, the higher cortical functions will kick in and humankind will move forward. It's looks we've taken a turn for lthe worse lately.)

[NewEmanuelGoldstein]

86. Patriotisim is great

Nationalisim us what bugs me.

[JohnLocke]

98. Nationalism isn't inherently bad. Jingoism is:

"Nationalism is a frequently misunderstood term as its most general definition is broad and has been controversial throughout history. Often the most negative consequences of the clash of nationalisms, ethnic tension, war, and political conflicts within states, are taken for nationalism itself. Under many definitions, nationalism does not necessarily imply that one nation is better than another, simply that nations are better off when they are permitted to govern themselves, following their own political, economic, and cultural interests independently. Jingoism is a more extreme ideology that emphasizes the superiority of one nation over another."
Wikipedia

Jingoism is a term describing chauvinistic patriotism, especially with regard to a warmongering political stance.
Wikipedia

[BlackActivist]

90. Voluntary patriotism ... absolutely not. Pressured patriotism .... yes.

People have a constitutional right to hate this country.

[ScreamingMeemie]

91. The loving of one's country doesn't bother me at all. The taking it in

one's own hands to decide who is patriotic and who is un-American is. The most patriotic thing one can do, is to be involved, no matter what your politics. What's the most patriotic thing I can do this year? Vote my conscience and speak my mind. It's what we as Americans are allowed to do. Remember Teddy Roosevelt.

[UrbScotty]

92. I consider myself patriotic

...but I'm not so much a 'go-get-em' person.

For instance, I consider most Canadians, Francs, Poles, Germans, Brits, Japanese, and other people to be nice and friendly. But I think of myself as a patriotic American, as I am sure many people in those other countries are patriotic Poles, Francs, Brits, etc.

To me, patriotism is about loving your country like you'd love your mother or father. You wouldn't attack someone on the playground because they don't have the same parents as you, would you?

[cmf]

95. Jingoism bugs me, patriotism does not

When it's taken to the extreme, and coupled with a foreign policy that endorses invading other countries for no good reason at all, that's what bugs me.

[Cooley Hurd]

99. It didn't used to, but it does now...

I think it has more to do with age than cynicism (or maybe both? :shrug:). I've noticed that lately I'm sneering a lot more at pickup trucks adorned with flags...x(

[Shadowen]

100. I don't mind patriotism.

It's jingoism I mind.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

102. I can't stand jingoism which most people think is patriotism

patriotism is quiet and strong. Patriotism feels no need for the newest Fourth of July Old Navy t-shirt. Or a cheap ripped-up American flag flapping on your SUV.

Patriotism is quiet. It falls under the "still waters run deep" category.

Jingoism, nationalism, now those are different creatures. And yes, they annoy me mightily.

[pauliedangerously]

104. Patriotism is a rallying word for fools

Though it's not as bad as "pride," which is one of the seven deadly sins. I wonder how many fundies have "Proud to be American" stickers on their cars. The horror...the horror...

[jokerman93]

107. Patriotism isn't patriotism

Patriotism isn't patriotism when it is buttressed with self-deluding lies and fueled by fear and stupidity.

That's called jingoism and it has always been the civic religion of tyrants.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

108. "..Patriotism is the passion of fools."

Full quote: "Patriotism is the most foolish of passions and and the passion of fools." Schopenhauer

A pissing contest for politicans and arms makers.