How important is DU in the larger perspective?

[WilliamPitt]

There's been a lot of fire and fury on the board since Reagan shuffled loose the mortal coil, a lot of which centered around how outsiders - Rush, Hannity, Boortz and the like, along with their fans and listeners - would percieve us. People who were turning backflips were denounced, and then championed, then the denouncers were championed, and the champions were denounced, and everyone walked away with a bloody lip.

This leads to a disquieting thought: Does DU accomplish nothing positive, and only supplies negative ammunition to be used by our foes?

I can't speak for very many others, but I can tell you what positive effect DU has in my sphere.

A lot of the stories we run on truthout come from people who post them here. We reach over 3,000,000 a month, including many on Capitol Hill and other 'interesting' places.

Most of the articles I write have somewhere between a little and a whole freakin' lot of data I found here because people posted it.

I wrote two books, and am working on a third, because of the data people post here.

There are a lot lot lot of other people who use the information posted h3ere for positive uses, and it has had its demonstrable effect.

DU is an online think tank for the alternative news media, a media that is clawing its way towards being less alternative and more mainstream by the day. Of all the 'growing' media influences among Americans, the internet is growing by far and away the fastest.

So...

1. Yes, our 'negative' crap can get used for ill;

2. The positive goes a lot farther and does a lot more good.

So, for my money, it is best to adopt the "Fuck those assholes" perspective. I've said it before and I'll say it again: The shit I give about Rush, Hannity and the rest is so small, it would take a team of particle physicists to find it. The shit I give about Rush, Hannity and the rest is so small, it only exists in theory, like a quark or a superstring.

Keep on doin' what your bad selves thinks is right. I, for one, thank you every single day for what you do. Every single day.

:toast:

[Walt Starr]

1. Very well said, Will

Very well said, indeed!

[Beam Me Up]

2. Wow. Couldn't agree more!

I'll get this in the thread and maybe come back and say more.

[Cleita]

3. From my POV,

I was happy to find people who were willing to think the opposite of the mental pablum and gruel they are fed day by day. Otherwise, it seems the masters of propaganda didn't think far ahead enough into the future to anticipate that people will try to find out the truth one way or the other. The dinosaurs didn't close the internet to free thought because they didn't think about it. It was like back in the old days of radio especially short wave and ham radios. They couldn't stop it then. Today, they can't stop the internet. It seems there will always be a way, I hope.

[Just Me]

25. Yes. ",...there will always be a way,..."

,...I guess that's why we choose "hope" over cynicism.

You touched my heart (my hope) with your post.

:hug:

We can all give in,...from time to time,...but we simply cannot ever give up. Yes?

[LittleApple81]

4. All I can say is that I cannot survive without DU anymore. I get

my news, exchange opinions, rant and rave... In essence, keep my sanity.
Some of the posts are way out there for me... but if I don't think it is appropriate or get fed up by the flame bait... I just hide the links and keep on going.

Thanks DU for existing.

[Carolina]

65. you said it

I too am addicted: I couldn't survive without DU either. When I want to know what's going on, I turn to DU first and foremost.
:kick:

[calimary]

70. Another DU addict here. I get TONS of great links, good ideas,

and good perspectives here, many of them thoughtfully and eloquently stated. There's also the WAY extreme stuff, but I shrug that off to lots of angry frustrated patriots who just hate what's happened to our country and just won't mince words about it anymore. Haven't we ALL felt like that? The bush effect can definitely bring out the worst in people. Including people here. Even so, I LOVE DU, I come here every day, and IT. KEEPS. ME. SANE. It's been my oasis and my refuge, and when things get really awful, I find solace coming here, and enjoying the fact that I am not alone in my feelings.

[Zomby Woof]

5. woof!

:D

[salinen]

6. Your Mom raised a good boy

smart and clean and a great judge of Scotch.

[WilliamPitt]

7. Mmmmmmmmmmmmm...

18.

:)

[Just Me]

27. What does that mean?

IF,...you don't mind my asking.

[WilliamPitt]

28. Glenlivet 18

Mmmmmmmm...

[ContinentalOp]

8. Agreed!

Well said. I also wonder what some people meant by "we're no better than them." Is the only difference between us and the freepers a little colorful language? I would hope that our differences go deeper than words and style and have to do with our ideas and ideals. I have to question the DUers who draw the line between "us and them" based on mere manners.

[BeFree]

36. Thanks ContinentalOP

We are better, no question. Some of the folks who spewed those kinds of thoughts must have been deeply hurt by the loss of their hero, eh?

Tell ya'll what...things are better, because of our being able to communicate so freely. We may not have changed the greater world much, yet, but surely DU has changed a lot of personal worlds.

Can ya tell I'm proud to be a member of DU?

[bpilgrim]

9. all part of the proccess or dimanods in the ruff

just at internet time, which is another FEATURE ;->

i am very impressped how you and many others harness its raw power to work thoughts out MUCH faster and, in the end, arrive at BETTER DATA/CONCLUSIONS/STRATS than the neoCONs can dream up talking points in a shoooooooort 24 hour spin cycle :toast:

remember, it's only inpractical if noone hear the trees fall'n.

but thanks to you and many others who lurk/post/harvest/share/rant/run/etc all CONTRIBUTE to that sound being truely heard round the world in an internet HEARTBEAT - thanks GORE :evilgrin:

ah... but wth do i know, damn bleeding-heart-liberal :crazy:

:hi:

peace

[Imperialism Inc.]

10. I think the people that were speaking up from the beginning,

did a stellar job. Someone needed to get right on top of the mainstream spin. You all did it with class by always expressing sympathy for the family and sufferers of the disease. As someone who had a family member die of Parkinson's, a similarly devastating disease, I respected that. Others, such as myself, who didn't really know what to say, got to be wimps and the information still got out.

Thanks for your efforts.

Before anyone points it out, I did read some of the less sensitive posts, but they were the minority. Besides , does anyone really think that other site would have even discussed whether it was appropriate or not? I doubt there would be many. That says something itself.

[Crewleader]

11. I can remember your first post...William

and don't forget...
the big plus is the friendships' we make! :hi:

[WilliamPitt]

13. Yeah...I kicked the crap out of Gore, one of your favorite humans,

and you gave me a very, very nice welcome.

That's because Crew RULES.

:loveya:

[David Zephyr]

17. Crew Does Rule!

Yep!

[Lisa0825]

12. Great post! I also think DU has a very positive net effect.

There have been so many events, calls-to-action, etc that I have seen posted here, and then participated in, which I never would have known about otherwise. I am sure most active members could say the same. That right there shows how valuable this site is. In addition, just being able to come and talk or just read, in a place where most of us share at least a subset of views, and the ultimate goal of re-defeating Bush, makes me feel better. I am fortunate to live in one of the few Democratic places in Texas, but I still feel like a rabbit surrounded by by hungry wolves half the time!

[Wind Dancer]

14. Eloquently stated, as usual!

DU is a wonderful research site.

[liberalhistorian]

15. Will, I understand what you're saying,

but the problem is this: WE may not give a quantum shit about what Hannutty, LIEbaugh, Ann the Man, etc., ad naseaum, think, but far too many others do. And far too many of those far too many others get their info on Dems and the left from the likes of Hannutty, LIEbaugh, Ann the Man, etc., and they think that that is the way that ALL Dems/libs think.

The wingnut media whores cherry pick the worst threads and posts from DU and present them to their "followers" as representative of Dems/libs as a whole, when nothing could be further from the truth. They love to claim that any nutball statement from one of their own is not representative of republicans and conservatives as a whole but is just an aberration from a small minority; they do not extend us the same courtesy, however. And far too many people believe them, tens of millions, in fact.

And that's the crux of the problem. WE don't care what the repukes and wingnuts and their ilk think of us, I know that it isn't possible for me to care any less what they think. But we need to be cognizant of the fact that, just because WE don't care doesn't mean how we're perceived doesn't matter and that it won't have an affect on Dems/libs as a whole. We need to recognize and deal with that.

[WilliamPitt]

18. I agree

but the attempt to curtail that stuff would put a damper on the good stuff. I think the good outweighs the bad; the bad flares up every once in a while, but the good is a constant stream of artillery fire that does not relent.

In a lot of ways, this is the place of definitions. You see something that pisses you off, you reply to it and give your opinion, someone(s) else replies, and the conversation rolls. That's a process of discovery. Get rid of the sand and you'll never grow the pearls.

[Just Me]

31. It is time to "cherry-pick" BETTER than than the "aggressors".

We don't even have to make shit up like they do. We can merely PICK out the TRUTH about these freakin' L-I-A-R-S,...and pound them (NO NICE, POLITE, RESPECTFUL OR EVEN "vengeful" GIG) with the FACTS.

Look,...we don't even have to work very hard at towing these "creatures" in.

We don't ever have to be nasty in repeating the facts,...over and over and over, again. To the contrary, while they spew bullshit,...we have no reason to go on anything other than a "factual" spew.

It is time to ACT, rather than react.

We have the ultimate weapon: TRUTH.

Whatever skeletons exist,...let them be revealed.

[Hoping4Change]

63. No matter what DUers write, repukes are on a mission destroy

their opposition no matter what. However in daily interactions with fence sitters tact has a place.

[David Zephyr]

16. Dare I Say, "Ditto"?

:thumbsup:

[Lisa0825]

23. LOL! good one!

[mopaul]

19. birds of a feather

amalgamated soap box jockeys, local 238

the internet is the mightiest sword we have. our soapbox is a constitutional right, for now.

the creators of this site are the ultimate modern practitioners of free speech and tolerance. i guess they know it, but they are democracy in action. it's the beginning of the 21st century, and we will derail this runaway train for america and history's sake.

i thank the creators and members of the democratic underground.

viva la resistance!

[Beam Me Up]

20. I don't watch television. I read DU.

I don't know how many of you out there are media gluttons but I gather many of you have more than one media input device running at a time. For me, there is only one and it is right here at DU. This IS my news and information source!

The wonderful thing about DU is it points me to so many other sources beyond itself. People post links to latest breaking news that I often find of interest. Others post information about issues of interest with links to stories around the web. Sometimes a thread will get started describing an event as it is being watched on CNN or CSPAN. On top of that, I get to observe and participate in discussion regarding the news. I've learned so much here in the past several months!

But that is not all. Even before 9/11 I'd begun finding interesting stories on the web which I then forwarded on to other people, all friends of mine that I know personally. Not one of them sits at his or her computer researching the underbelly of our Democracy the way I do. They haven't the time or the inclination. I do have the time and I do have the inclination. I'm fascinated by all this crap! I pick and choose through it the information that I feel is most interesting or relevant and often put it in emails that I send out with the appropriate links. In other words, like so many others here I assume, I am a conduit though which this news passes. I FEEL LIKE I AM PARTICIPATING IN SOMETHING IMPORTANT. This may be a kind of delusion in the truly grand scale of things, but I don't think so. I know the information packets I put together are being forwarded on to people I don't even know.

I believe that INFORMATION IS A FORCE. And I believe the more we share information, the more powerful we become.

I will also say this: We can assume to the extent we are effective, to that extent WE CAN EXPECT TO BE TARGETED. With some moderated limits, this is an open forum and an excellent place for those with agendas other than peer to peer information sharing to plant disinformation. I have no doubt that happens here. However, for the most part, there are so many knowledgeable people here (and THAT is truly what makes DU great) it often doesn't take long for it to be revealed for what it is.

Thanks DU! :hi:

Edit to fix 'smiley'

[Just Me]

21. DU = "exceptional" think tank (with some emoting struggles *LOL*)!!

DU = democratic forum

DU = debate without fear

DU = healthy environment for problem-solving

DU = backing the best humanity offers


I LOVE DU!!!

:loveya:

I really do.

[madrchsod]

22. i`ve used this board to give information

to my wife to convert four bush voters to kerry. my daughter has been reading du for about 8 months now and has alerted her friends to the up coming draft, she`s used du and the bbc for her assignments in history class..one du`er mom got ideas for her daughter to use in a school paper -she got an a+..if we would have had the web and du back in the 60`s the movement would have been alot different. and last but not least if it wasn`t for du and it`s thousands of contibutions we would not have a clue to what is going on in the world..how many thousands of links have been posted on this site since it started? where else could we find all this information? we certainly couldn`t find it on our own..
oh yes and where else can we share our personal problems, our life`s up and downs, our joys and sorrows and always recieve a heart felt response?
so fuck the freepers and what they think of us,i for one could give a shit less about them..

[Snoggera]

24. Like a pebble

in a chunk of mud.

[Just Me]

26. That, nevertheless, manages to make big waves *CHUCKLE*!!! n/t

[VelmaD]

29. Very and not at all

I know...typical Libra answer. :)

I guess it's just hard for me to fathom that this place makes much difference in the grand scheme of things. Most of the people I know would never have heard of it if it wasn't for me mentioning it.

Then again I think about each of us telling 1 other person at a time about this place and about the things we learn here and I hope it's all building into something huge.

But I agree with your basic point. Fuck 'em. It doesn't matter what we do...they're going to find things to smear us with. Hell, if we were practically perfect they'd just make shit up.

[AwakeAtLast]

30. My view

I agree very much with what you wrote. I have to add what DU is for me. It is a reinforcement of ideas and thought that I have had for many years. I could never find like-minded people around me, and I definitely couldn't find it in the media. In the few shorts weeks I have been reading on this site, I have come to realize that I have been fighting against slow and deliberate brainwashing ever since I was a child. That would be right about the time that Reagan became President. So except for the Clinton years, my entire higher-level- thinking life has been shaped by conservatives. It is a welcome relief to finally know that there are others out there who actually understand me (well, most of the time, anyway). If any member of DU tries to limit their thoughts in any way at any time, the other people out there like me will never have a chance to dig out from under the sludge that is considered information. So thank you, all of you, for never compromising your thoughts and beliefs. :yourock:

[Oddman]

32. Of course we don't make a difference!

But it sure is fun trying!!!!

[dpbrown]

33. "Be the Media"

That's what Dennis told us to do when he was in Minneapolis.

Well, that's what DU is, baby.

Have thought, have mind, have power.

Very important.

Dan Brown
Saint Paul, Minnesota

[Generic Other]

34. Very gracious of you to acknowledge the work others do here

Some of us don't do much more than stand on the sidelines and cheer, but we appreciate the opportunity to participate in any capacity.

Hurray for DU, our major source of information in the last 4 years. Better than a lot of news organizations. Hell, maybe better than some government intelligence agencies. More honest anyway.

[WilliamPitt]

37. Well,

I thank DU in both my books. The second book thank-you is three paragraphs long. I'd qualify for the Bag of Shit Hall of Fame on the first ballot if I didn't recognize how huge the work done here is.

[Generic Other]

35. Very gracious of you to acknowledge the work others do here

Some of us don't do much more than stand on the sidelines and cheer, but we appreciate the opportunity to participate in any capacity.

Hurray for DU, our major source of information in the last 4 years. Better than a lot of news organizations. Hell, maybe better than some government intelligence agencies. More honest anyway.

[Paragon]

38. I'm different politically then when I first signed up

From voting for Nader in the last election to turning into a die-hard Democrat centrist -- well, centrist compared to a fair chunk of DU, anyway.

[JCMach1]

39. DU is something quite new... something I am calling a 'Metacommunity'

because it is primarily meta-discourse that we are involved in... I am writing a scholarly article (and maybe a book) about what it is we are 'doing' here.

[proud patriot]

40. Amen

:headbang:

[maggrwaggr]

41. then let's say it nice and loud -- "FUCK THOSE ASSHOLES!"

Personally, I am all for any free publicity.

We tell the truth here (except for, uh, the more whacky theories) and these people fucking HATE the truth.

So if they direct a few curious eyes toward the truth, I say GREAT.

Thanks for the feedback, Will. A lot of times I wonder myself what the hell I'm doing here.

I justify it by writing a ton of e-mails, LTTE's, calling my congresspeople, etc. etc. etc. using the information I find here and nowhere else.

[ibegurpard]

42. Forgive me but which is it?

You see, I hear that "DU is completely inconsequential in the greater scheme of things" and I also hear what you've just said. And I've heard both coming from you. I guess it depends on what's being argued?
:shrug:

[nomatrix]

43. You are forgiven. This is my take........

Those who respond inconsequential

A. never google or research
B. seldom read links provided in posts
C. posts only their opinion
D. incite arguments (you'll spot them in the same topics, just wait)
E. all of the above


Those who find DU resourceful

A. use a search engine at least once a day
B. read the link source before clicking. (know what a think tank is)
C. usually backup arguments with journalist quality links
D. kick ass in arguments, show no fear to controversy, will admit being wrong & have a good sense of humor
E. they are INFORMATION JUNKIES! Happy Birthday Gemini DUers

DU is whatever you decide it is for you. Not what someone tells you it is. Even if it enrages you, stick around. You can learn something.

[nomatrix]

44. As usual Will

You write it better than anyone I know.

Will, wordsmith that you are, can you help me with a word that was in the movie, Judgement at Nuremburg?
Marlene Dietrich character used it to describe how they felt about Hitler. I know the spelling is wrong but IIRC,
it is pronounce "booze-shwhar", french?
It sounds like an insult (gloves in hand, across the face) type
Of course no one says it like Dietrich, except (Boston born) Madeline Kahn.
I heard it used before, I've searched, but without the correct spelling.....

Thanks. Thank you for all you do.

If anyone else knows, feel free to educate me.

[never cry wolf]

55. BOURGEOIS

Pronunciation: 'burzh-"wä also 'buzh- or 'büzh- or burzh-'
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle French, from Old French borjois, from borc
1 : of, relating to, or characteristic of the townsman or of the social middle class
2 : marked by a concern for material interests and respectability and a tendency toward mediocrity

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

[SOteric]

45. I feel the most important thing DU can offer

is a sense of community and refuge for the varying degrees of liberal found under it's big tent.

We feel free to share information, argue amoungst ourselves, build lifelong friendships and moot about questions for which we have no answers because we're amoung people who share our perspective and our values.

And of course, we get to flirt outrageously.

[DS1]

52. flirting outrageously seems to be a common theme

:bounce:

[grasswire]

69. flirting?

When/where does that go on?

[LibertyorDeath]

46. Well Will that brings tears to the eyes .Speaking of Data

Have you read this yet

JUNE 8, 2004

Bush, Cheney Indictments in Plame Case Looming

by
Michael C. Ruppert

Snip

The real reasons, contrary to the saturation spin being put out by major news outlets, have nothing to do with Tenet's role as taking the fall for alleged 9/11 and Iraqi intelligence "failures" before the upcoming presidential election.

Both resignations, perhaps soon to be followed by resignations from Colin Powell and his deputy Richard Armitage, are about the imminent and extremely messy demise of George W. Bush and his Neocon administration in a coup d'etat being executed by the Central Intelligence Agency

Much more

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/060804_coup_detat.html

[opihimoimoi]

47. The Difference is FREE THINKING... we are not Stepfordesque

and blinded by the Pub Psyops. We can SEE and we know what is right from wrong.

The Bushies are doing it all wrong.,....

[Jose Diablo]

48. DU is vital

When taken in the context of the media's role in democracy, the framers of the constitution gave special attention, privileges and immunity to the media for the purpose of keeping an informed citizenry.

Traditional media outlets have been compromised by a small segment of the political body.

The creation and growth of DU is a response to the shutting down of the traditional media in the context of how well the traditional media did in fulfilling their purpose.

People DO want and need to know what their government is doing. When they are unable to obtain this information from the traditional sources, alternate sources step-in to fill the void.

If remains to be seen if DU will become 'mainstream' at some future time. It seems to me how 'mainstream' is defined. If the body politic moves to the left in its 'average', then DU could become a center for information gathering and communication of ideas. The member count and site hits would be a good indication of how 'mainstream' DU is.

I don't know if the originators of the site really wanted DU to become what it has become, but DU has filled a void that was needed and continues to be needed.

The Internet is wonderful, is it not?

[DinahMoeHum]

49. Will, AFAIAC, DU saved my sanity from March 2002 on. . .

I felt as though I was sleepwalking for months after Election 2000 and 9/11.

Then, while surfing mindlessly through the 'Net looking for Dem organizations, I came across the essay "Stand Your Ground"
That essay led me into DU, where I lurked for a month until a thread about AG John Asswipe's singing convinced me to join up. I wasn't gonna miss out on the fun anymore.


:kick:

[GreenPartyVoter]

50. DU is a virtual Meet-Up, and I for one couldn't get by without

hanging out with all you cool guys n gals. :)

---------------------
An open letter to John Kerry and the DNC:
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/OpenLetter.htm

[WilliamPitt]

51. Kick

[bobthedrummer]

53. I've learned a great deal here and hope I've made a positive

contribution, even though a strong constitution is required to process some of my topics concerning some of what's in the shadow government.

Hey, even mind control can now be discussed openly and intelligently.

Fuck 'em all.
NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW.

[fishnfla]

54. Rush preaches to the choir, we debate to gain knowledge

No reich-winger ever changed his mind about anything by listening to Rush.

[never cry wolf]

56. It IS important, but could be so much more!

I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here and thank the stars daily for allowing me to discover this place (despite the commesurate drop off in my self employer production.)

This is a great place to learn the truth as well as alternative information sources. About the only tee-vee I watch now a days is c-span late at night after I get off DU.

I think this is an important fount of information and a virtual research factory but also feel it is not yet mainstream, but could be. I have sent links to some local columnists and have received replies thanking me. I suggest everyone do the same. Scan your local papers and if a columnist (left leaning or middle of the road) write an interesting column, sherry pick a thread on here dealing with that subject, write to the columnist, thank him/her for the article and attach a link you think they may find interesting and talk up what a great research site this is for journalists.

I'll guarantee Will is not the only writed/journalist that lurks and/or posts here. The more the merrier!

Thanks for this Will!

[Bandit]

57. I consider us a very public "Think Tank"

Can you imagine the ammunition we would have if we could see everything generated by the Heritage Foundation? It isn't pretty watching sausage being made but the sausage sells well because people like it.

[WilliamPitt]

58. .

[anarchy1999]

59. Thank you, ever so much, Will!

A much needed lift to the debate!! DU is an amazing resource and I refer at least one person a day to this site. LBN, GD, Editorials ...... how to stay sane in an insane moment of history.

edit:
I think that we are all very rich for having this community of friends across this country and around the world, even with all our differences and dissenting opinions.

[ocean girl]

61. Hi, I'm Ocean Girl and I'm a newbie DU addict

I can't stop - I don't want to do anything else - my iBook is permanently embedded in my lap!

Thanks, everybody, for being here and helping me put all this insanity into perspective. Special thanks to bobthedrummer - your short and brilliant answers amaze me.

Even though I am broke, broke, broke after 3 years of unemployment, I donated to DU after my second visit and I spend hours learning, learning, learning.

I will Keep Coming Back!

[Carolina]

68. welcome to DU!

:hi:

[tom_paine]

60. I agree: the good outweighs the bad by orders of magnitude

Unquestioningly.

Good post!

:toast: :toast:

[WilliamPitt]

62. One last kick for the freepdorks

[kodi]

64. there's only 1 thing worse than being talked about: not being talked about

the mere fact that our adversaries are using our words should be enough to recognize that we are important enough for them to note what we say.

they are afraid of us and attack us because of it.

any man's death diminishes me, but ronald reagan's presidency diminshed millions.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

66. DU is pretty irrelevant. For me, its just entertainment.

Sort of an online college bullsession around a a pitcher of beer at a bar someplace.

Mostly its just people talking shit, but sometimes theres some good info or convo.

What others think? What right wing wingnuts think? Like I really give a damn! LOL!

[Rex]

67. Target audience - ditto monkeys will believe anything their masters

tell them. So really it doesn't matter what we say here on DU in regards to swaying their opinions of the Left. IMO, DU is here for medicinal purposes for Left-thinking people. RWingers will NEVER get it, even if every post here was cooing and fawning over Reagan being the Great Communicator, Rush etc crew would still deride us and their sheep would still hate our guts.

[RBHam]

71. Well said, Pitt-dude...

There is a difference, though. When DUers blast someone, it's backed up with facts. Unlike the low foreheads over at Freeperville or Looser-anne.com, who primarily use racism, ignorance and slander to attack those they hate. And they hate alot!