My nephew just got orders for Iraq - I really want Bush* gone

[Wickerman]

and other sleepless musings.

My nephew joined the service prior to 9-11. He went in out of sense of duty, I think, and to help pay for education. He's a great kid, super bright, funny. Anyway, he has one of those jobs where he can't talk about what he does and has traveled a lot. We kinda figured he was safe from deployment there. Nope, yesterday he let my sister know he is going to Iraq for a year.

I know, nothing new here, lots of kids are going.

The pisser is that his brother was one of the first into Iraq - he spent a year there, and just Monday went back to Afghanistan for another year. He saw a lot of action the first go 'round and we hope Afghanistan isn't heating up like it seems to be. :sigh:

So, my sister will soon have her two boys fighting Bush's wars.

Yeah, I was one of those who originally questioned if it was prudent to go into Afghanistan in the first place. Did we have cause - the hi-jackers were, after all, mostly Saudis? When we did go in, did we bungle it by leaving the hills to the North open where someone, even 7 foot tall Muslim with a dialysis machine and an entourage of 50 could sneak through in the cover of daylight? The list goes on.

Unfortunately, it didn't suit the agenda of the Bush* maladministration to take a slow approach and decide which is the most effective course to deal with terror. No, they took the easy and emotional response and went heavy into Afghanistan - then, because of short attention span pResident GW they never bothered to finish their task and shifted focus to Iraq. Not learning from the Soviets, we will be in Afghanistan for years to come - a vicious war without end cycle. All that to fight an illegal and unjust war in Iraq.

Now they have fucked up Iraq so well that I can imagine we will see civil war there for the next two decades minimum.

And for what? We are no safer - actually, as was reported yesterday we are less safe - seems there were some "clerical" errors in that report on world terror that was released early in the year. Seems terrorism isn't down worldwide - its up 35%.

So, through failings of our election watchdogs, massive failures of our press, and the weakness of our elected democrats we allowed the freaking village idiot to come in with all his PNAC buddies to make a grab for domination of the world. Sweet, ain't it? Even when they screw up, and screw up they have - they win. Why? They and their buddies have fingers in all defense related industries you can think of - and some that probably aren't relevant but such that they still manipulate defense contacts.

Folks, thanks to BushCo we are going to be in war for a long time. We have two fronts going and these wars will occupy much of the first half of this century. Its likely my 6 year old stepson will fight there, or, perhaps my 12 year old daughter. Friends of my kids will surely die there in the next decade.

I'm not confident that Kerry (or anyone, for that matter) can fix the mess that Bush* has created. However, its imperative that we make certain Bush* isn't allowed to do even more damage than the hell he has unleashed in Iraq and Afghanistan. Hell, the moran has his plate so very full and he still badgers North Korea, Iran and Jordan.

We need to make certain Kerry is elected and that we get a solid majority in at least one of the houses or we, and my kids, perhaps your kids, or grandkids are screwed. As for my nephews and the 150k+ that are fighting Bush*'s battles for him? We can only hope and pray for their safety and hope President Kerry brings them home safe sooner rather than later.

Nothing new here, but some sleepless and incoherent ramblings - screw it, I am going back to bed. Thanks.

[DevinDNC]

1. Unlike George Bush...your nephew is a brave soldier.

As a 24 year old former Marine, I would like to wish your brave Nephew a safe tour in Iraq. Your Nephew is just the latest soldier who has been sent to war by a man who was too much of a coward to go himself. Bush is scum, he is a shame on America.

[Wickerman]

43. Thanks Devin!

:hi: Ya, I got a problem with Bush starting wars that aren't needed when he was unwilling to fight himself. I'm ex-military myself - I got no problem with defense of the country but I didn't sign on for aggressive actions and I don't expect my nephews to fight in that kind of theater either.

[Name removed]

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[Skittles]

3. no, you are not a realist

you have bought too much bullshit. I'm shocked that a soldier would support such utter crap. You're expected to be called on to protect your country - not illegally bomb, invade and occupy a country whose people DO NOT WANT YOU, people who never did ANYTHING to harm America - all a the direction of an incompetent, unelected piece of SHIT "president".

[Name removed]

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[Skittles]

7. LOL

you are deluded. I don't recall my fellow soldiers craving war - unless they were brainwashed republican wingnuts.

[Name removed]

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[Media_Lies_Daily]

50. You just didn't give up while you were way behind, did you?

[Qanisqineq]

10. every soldier wants to have a war to prove himself?

my husband is currently a soldier and has been for the last 9 years. He spent 10 months in Iraq. Few soldiers he knows wanted to be deployed and no one wanted to "prove" himself. To do the job they were trained for meant killing people and no one wanted to prove he could kill someone. Are they willing to put their lives on the line for their country? Yes. But willing does not equal wanting.

[Name removed]

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[Qanisqineq]

16. I have a problem with your use of "EVERY"

because you don't know every soldier. I know a helluva lot of soldiers and I wouldn't say NO soldiers want to go to war -- that would be just plain stupid. As is your use of absolutes and comparing football to killing.

[Name removed]

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[Qanisqineq]

25. I'll pass that on to my husband

that he is not a "real" soldier and he can then pass it on to his friends. I'm sure they'll get a kick out of it. How many wars did you fight in? How many people did you kill? I guess if you say none, you must not be a "real" soldier either.

[Name removed]

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[Qanisqineq]

37. ask most veterans and they will tell you what real soldiers want

PEACE.

It wasn't a challenge and it was a rhetorical question. I don't care to hear numbers or even whether or not you killed someone, i.e. a rhetorical question. I am not arguing that the job of the army is not war. I am arguing with your definition of a "real" soldier. You say a "real" soldier wants to go to war and that the job of the army is war, but at the same time you say it's not about killing people. Color me confused. (And off to work! Nice chatting and welcome to DU!)

:hi:

[Blue Wally]

45. Thinking Back To 1967

when our battalion was deploying to Vietnam. I would have to say that their was a kalaidoscope of feelings among the 900 or so of us. Fear of the unknown, fear of letting our buddies down, desire to do a good job both four ourselves and our friends, feeling that we were embarking on a "great adventure", sadness and fear at leaving our families behind, patriotism as inspired by JFK in his "pay and price, bear any burden" speech, confusion as to the "domino theory" and geopolitics, but firm in the knowledge that we were fighting to turn back "the godless hordes of communism". We didn't seek this and we were a bit aprehensive, but we were excited as well. Maybe that is what Snowman is talking about.

[coyote]

4. I wonder how long you will last here....

Why do you say "I Love Liberals - We're So Crazy" in your profile? ...just curious

[RoyGBiv]

5. What's a fair weather American?

Are you suggesting that Americans who question their leaders decisions are disloyal? That's certainly what it sounds like.

Her "rant" was a result of realism. Our people are dying for a bad cause. It would have been a bad cause if they weren't dying, but since they are, those who are feeling that pain or may potentially feel it are saying so.

[Name removed]

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[LibertyorDeath]

12. the Iraq war was a natural move in a Realist mindset.

You should ease off on the Koolaid there just a tad.

"As far as the Realist comment I don't think you really want me to go into a lecture about theoretical International Relations about systemic structures and the like do you?"

Yes I do lets hear more of this theoretical International Relations
It sounds riveting.

"the argument is over the war in Iraq - there is where the neo-realism comes into play."

"neo-realism" Please enlighten us oh great sage of neo-realism

"the Iraq war was a natural move in a Realist mindset."

Wow come on everyone lets all say it together "the Iraq war was a natural move in a Realist mindset."

You talk this kind of shit all the time or is this a special occasion

[Name removed]

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[Sirveri]

18. Even I'm curious. Go for it.

Me, I was thinking that we should use containment. Even peak oil doesn't give us a good enough reason to go in there. The oil fields are trashed, they've been pumping oil back into the fields instead of water! It's insane!

[Name removed]

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[Sirveri]

27. What's your point?

Has Castro ever actually done anything to us?
How about the USSR. What exactly did they DO to us?

Here's a thought. How about nothing. They did absolutely nothing to us. We rattled sabers at each other and then one of them got sick and died and the other turned into a old man. Oh my, how horrible that containment worked out for us.

[Name removed]

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[Sirveri]

31. OK lets talk about Iran then.

Before Iran had a radical Islamic coup, we were freindly because the dictator was our guy. Then some other two bit tin pot dictator got up there who we didn't like. And the people were pissed so they took hostages. Then they released hostages. Then we sold them a whole bunch of weapons and gave it to the Sandistas in Nicaragua. Then we kinda sat there and looked at them funny up until now when we got Bush who rattled our saber at them a couple times for good measure.

What has Iran done to us? Nothing, well aside from giving us some of the most highly skilled civilians that country had to offer as refugees. In fact though, this, like Cuba, is a area where containment might not work as well as... I dunno, Diplomacy.

Yes, Diplomacy. Talking solves oh so many problems. It's too bad the administration doesn't have the slightest clue how to go about doing that.

[Name removed]

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[LibertyorDeath]

20. Oh that's rich mr 10 posts

You have spewed more shit in this one thread alone than I've seen on the Site all day.

You are speaking shit strait up 100% illogical shit.

[Name removed]

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[RC]

14. the Iraq war was NOT a natural move in a Realist mindset.

This is a neo-con grab for money, power and oil. At best this administration LIHOP. There is more than enough evidence they needed the 9/11 Pearl Harbor to jump start their greedy agenda.
If this administration were working with the best interests of the people of the US and the world in mind;

1) 9/11 would have been stopped. They KNEW!

2) If for some reason 9/11 could not be stopped, a world wide police action was called for. We had the sympathy of the world with us, US and bu$h&co blew it big time.

[murielm99]

15. Yes, go ahead.

Go into a lecture about theoretical international relations and systemic structures. We are dying to hear your bullshit. Post away. There are people here who will argue rings around anything you say.

As far as anyone spitting on Nam vets -- prove your urban myth with reputable links. Or, ask my husband.

Three generations of my family have served in the military precisely so we can agree or disagree with any American policy we choose. I know that none of my family members went into combat itching to kill someone. Most of them just wanted to stay alive.

[fujiyama]

19. I'm hoping the mods

don't tombstone him yet. I'm quite interested in his take on "neo realism".

[Name removed]

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[Sirveri]

34. No, it's because they explicitly stated in the TOS

that this board is for progressives and people of their ilk. Or to cut and paste directly from the rules page.

Quote
---------
WHO IS WELCOME ON DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND, AND WHO IS NOT

We welcome Democrats of all stripes, along with other progressives who will work with us to achieve our shared goals.

This is a "big tent" message board. We welcome a wide range of progressive opinion. You will likely encounter many points of view here that you disagree with.

We ban conservative disruptors who are opposed to the broad goals of this website. If you think overall that George W. Bush is doing a swell job, or if you wish to see Republicans win, or if you are generally supportive of conservative ideals, please do not register to post, as you will likely be banned.

If you have been banned from Democratic Underground, you are not permitted to log on again using a different username. Previously banned members will be immediately banned, regardless of behavior.

People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, antisocial behavior, will be banned. It doesn't matter if you are a progressive or a long-term member of this board.
---------
End Quote

[Name removed]

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[LibertyorDeath]

29. Congrats That is the biggest pile of shit ever posted at the DU

Why does the stench of freeper shit cling to all your posts.

[Sirveri]

30. The answer makes sense. But it's the wrong answer.

Mainly because;
A) The world is LESS stable now than it was pre-Iraq.
B) Our security has been further compromised because we have
B1) Drastically increased our debt load
B2) Increased global terror by 35%
B3) Isolated our freinds and allies.

So basically, by our actions we've helped to create a 'multipolar' system. We have the EU rising again as a unified front. China surging to dominance in Asia, and Putin doing his best to keep Russia from collapsing in upon itself, and he's succeeding for the most part.

Hell even South America is starting to shy away from us and towards other trading partners.

So yeah, try again.

[Name removed]

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[Sirveri]

38. Right

Well first off, who ever said that Europe was isolating us? If anything they want better relations and for us to stop acting like idiots. Or at least that's the way I see it. We are after all, one of their largest trading partners.

So either way, this makes no sense. I mean, I thought major combat operations were done in Iraq. So I guess we're not technically at war with them, are we? And what the heck is going to happen when the government comes up and says, get out? Well I guess we're done here so lets go home? I mean, technically I guess that means we won right? How exactly are we suppossed to 'win' this war? Clearly, as far as I can see, all I can tell is that the Iraqi's are going to keep shooting at us until we leave... So why not just... leave?

And last but not least. Didn't Russia have the exact same thought in Afghanistan?

See here's the problem. It doesn't f'ing matter if we're a unipower or multi power or what the hell ever power. All that matters is that the entire world does not hate us. Because we can not conquer the entire world, the populace doesn't have the stomach for it and we don't have the troops. So maybe it's time to play nice with Europe, and South America, and Russia, and China, and get them all on our side. Then nobody will be trying to isolate us and we'll still be the dominant super power on the planet. Well until oil runs out, but that's another topic.

[LibertyorDeath]

33. I'm saving this for the day crowd man the laughs

were gonna have. :)

We'll poll it as the most imbecilic thing ever posted in the history of the site.

I think your a lock for a win Snowman12 :bounce:

Let me be the first to congratulate you

[sangha]

42. Well, there's some pretty stiff competition

but this one is definitely a contender

[Wickerman]

44. One of the best I have seen

the way he takes his political biases and applies them in a coat of good of the world through massive military might with an unnatural and uncaring sheen was brilliance - and we got all that on a progressive board. I give him a vote.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

40. I have two questions

It sounds like for your domino theory to work, the Arabs and Iranians and whoever else is involved will have to want to cooperate with this and peacefully go about building the new democratic systems. What happens if they don't want to cooperate? Do we force them to? And if force is your solution, how do we go about doing that?

Also, they are very mad about the Israel/Palestinian situation and likely don't want to cooperate over that problem alone. How do you plan to deal with that?

And feel free to dumb it down for us.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

17. I'd like to hear it too. What is the big realistic plan for Iraq?

I'd love to hear it all layed out.

[acmavm]

39. Who was this guy? Can anyone really think that way? I'm sure that there's

a job for him at CACI in his future.

Seems to me that he's swallowed the bullshit that this war is comparable to WWII. This war was pointless, unnecessary, immoral, and with the torture scandals thrown in, possibly illegal. There were no good intentions here. There was no 'protect the world from terrorists' justification. Because of this war, the terrorists are multiplying like rabbits. No nation has the right to invade a country without provacation. War is a last resort, not a sport. That's what this guy reminds me of, some blustering fool from wrestling (my kid watches that stuff, drives me crazy).

This country is now isolated foreign policy-wise, we can't find out way out of that country because of the shit we've stirred up, we can't get any country commit more troops to this mess because they have a big problem with committing troops to a fight that was started over false pretenses and lies, and the people of Iraq are in desparate straits because we're not helping them one damn bit. Instead of dumping money into the Iraqi infrastructure, we're dumping it all into fighting them, in their own country. The hospitals are without medical equipment and vaccines, the people are without work, and we're spending money shipping in foreign workers when the Iraqis could have and should have been employed to rebuild their own country. They could have done it cheaper and probably better, and saved us billions at the same time. The US has treated them like they are a bunch of ignorant hut dwellers instead of a country with a history thousands of years older than our own.

Yes, the military exists to fight. But only in our own defense. War is not some kind of proving ground to see how macho a person is. It is the last resort, not an political prop so that you can claim that you're a 'war president' and a real tough guy. Especially when the people who sent this country to war have never had a taste of it themselves.

[Sirveri]

47. Darn, I was hoping he'd stick around.

I like shooting their ideas out of the water. It entertains me so very much.

[Wickerman]

41. If you didn't understand my rant, then you didn't read it

I am not complaining that my nephews are in the military. I would be unhappy, but I would understand them fighting a just war.

GROW UP AND QUIT CRYING?

I don't even know where to start. I didn't want the fucking war. I didn't think we should go into Iraq or Afghanistan. That we did Iraq was insane, that we did so without finishing in Afghanistan was criminal.

FAIR WEATHER AMERICAN?

You don't know dick about me. Every male in my family has served in some branch of the US military. I largely consider myself a pacifist but I served just short of 6 years - sorry there was no war during which I could go show you how duty bound I was.

You addressed not a single fucking point in my post. I am confident you only read the header and thought, oh, here is another bleeding heart liberal concerned that war is affecting his family. Wrong, buddy, spend some time reading before you cast blanket dispersions on someone who is trying to work through his feelings for his family's role in an unjust war.

[Booster]

49. My nephew also...

will be going to Iraq in August and I am certainly not happy about it either - neither is he. He is a Marine and was in Bush Sr's Gulf War, but I think this one scares him more because of the way it's being fought. Not smart at all. I sympathize with you on this, but as my nephew said, they have to go because Bush is the "boss" - that made me want to throw up. I really hate the Bush's - all of them.

[UrbScotty]

46. DANG IT -- BUCK FUSH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr::grr:

[Solly Mack]

48. I understand all too well. If there is anything you need or want to talk

about, please don't hesitate to say...

If there is anything I can do for either of your nephews, let me know.

[Wickerman]

53. Thanks Solly

That is a really great offer. DU is full of some wonderful folk!

[mopaul]

51. .

[Carolina]

52. hoping and praying as I read your post

that your nephews will return from their respective tours safe and whole. What a nightmare for your sister; may she find some small comfort and peace of mind knowing that there's a whole community of people out here wishing her and her sons well and doing their damned best to see that Bush is gone come January 20, 2005. God that seems like a lifetime away.

Peace and Godspeed :hug:

[Wickerman]

54. Than you Carolina

and MoPaul above for the kick. Oh, I cannot wait for Jan 20th 2005 either.

I wouldn't have a problem with my nephews fighting to defend America, but am horrified they have to do this deed for such an unjust cause and for such madmen as the PNAC crowd.

I'll express you sentiment to my sister and I will return her thanks in advance!

:bounce: