How would you counter this?

[freetobegay]

"It is about time for the people who don't pay income taxes should start paying their fair share. Obviously the facts on taxes weren't reported here, but the tax burden that is REAL is that 75% of the taxes are paid by only 5-10% of the population so the meager impact on the Democrat excused "poor" is not only justified, it is about damned time in coming. The day that any American income earner is excused from paying federal income taxes should come to an end immediately. The lowest income uses are more likely mooches on the Federal breast and should start paying for their support.

No non-tax paying citizen has ever created a job. Cutting their taxes won't ever increase employment."

[Forkboy]

1. Ok,let's tax religion

[frankly_fedup2]

4. I'm with you . . .

Jerry all Jews are going to Hell Falwell should not live like a millionaire. He has worked hard, I am sure, however, a preacher that lives better than the majority of the members of his church is obviously concerned more about their money then they are about their souls.

Also, by not taxing religion, anyone can come up with anything and call it their beliefs and, therefore, their religion. It's time religion was taxed.

Also, the last 10 years of my life, I have not attended a church that in January of any year sent me a statement (like a bill), asking me what I would be contributing for the year. How the heck am I suppose to know that? I give what I can when I can. When your church starts sending out statements like bills, then it's time to move on.

It was changed in the Constitution in the early 1900's by the Republican majority to tax a man's income. Before that, men's income were not taxed and our forefathers never intended for a man, who worked hard, to have to pay taxes on that money.

Taxes were only to be paid by land owners and on imports. That seemed to keep the country going for over 100 years. Then the Republicans got greedy (big surprise) and held the majority and changed the law that takes 1/3 of our income every year.

[Mr.Green93]

10. The income tax was given to us by Wilson

and a Democratic controlled Congress. www.u-s-history.com/pages/h1053.html

[Vladimir]

2. Its not true? n/t

[ET Awful]

3. I'd point out that 60% of corporations pay NO income tax, and ask

when those non-taxpayers will start paying their fair share.

[Killarney]

5. You can talk about it in this way

Taxes are becoming more of a burden on the poor and middle class because Bush is making it a SALARY tax instead of an INCOME tax.

The rich get away with so much free, un-taxed money. Millions in inherited, unearned money. Capital gains, investments, etc... all minimally or not taxed. For example, a man might say he makes $100K per year in salary and pay 32% on that, but then he also draws in an additional $1 million per year in investments, etc that is not taxed or very minimally taxed. So, overall his INCOME tax would be extremely low.

Yet, the poor and middle class are taxed on their salary for income tax and also FICA (which the rich don't pay), then state taxes, property and local taxes, sales taxes, etc. If a man makes $50K per year and no investment income or anything else... he ends up having a much larger percent of his income taxed then the rich because the majority if not all of his income is salary.

The Rethugs are screwing the middle class by making the income tax a SALARY tax instead of the real income tax it used to be.

[freetobegay]

7. Thanks thats a great!

[Mr.Green93]

11. it is past time for a Wealth Tax

[rfranklin]

6. No one has ever amassed great wealth without labor...

Income taxes are just another tax like sales taxes and property taxes and gasoline taxes and permit fees. I would rather not pay those levies, but reasonable people know thar they are required to pay for the benefits of government that we do like, such as good roads, police and fire companies, schools, safe buildings and clean, reasonably priced water. There is a tendency for people, such as the retired, to ask, why should I pay school taxes, I don't have any kids in school. Well, there is a concept of the greater good, which has proven to be beneficial to our society and our economy. So, if evening out the income distribution through income tax helps keep our society from becoming a Third World oligarchy with the privileged few reaping all the rewards, that is a greater good. Just take a look at countries like Columbia or Brazil if you want to see an example.

Or just go back to the days before the income tax in the United States. It was just like those Third World countries. It was a shithole of child labor abuses and 80-hour weeks for subsistence wages where the life expectancy was half of what it is today.

So tell 'em to shut the fuck up!

[JuniperLea]

20. you are so right

"but reasonable people know thar they are required to pay for the benefits of government that we do like, such as good roads, police and fire companies, schools, safe buildings and clean, reasonably priced water."

and we probably wouldn't care so much if we actually were provided with such things. the police and fire companies are the only things in your post that i would agree are already great services in my neighborhood, but the people who work those jobs sure aren't paid enough for putting their lives on the line every day.

[TexasProgresive]

8. They leave out payroll taxes

when the compute these figures. FICA etal take a bigger bite out of low income people than income taxes.

[Blue Wally]

17. FICA NOT INTENDED AS A TAX

FICA was inrended as a contribution to a government retirement and disability insurance plan. We (the Democratic congress) were the culpable ones in rolling the FICA into the overall federal budget instead of keeping it in acompartmented budget treated separately every year. Yeah, use the excess to "invest" in treasury bonds, but that "trust fund" should be there to sdhow the true measures of the deficits we have been running every year since the late fifties.

Medicare/Medicaid should also be a "balkanized" budget.

Maybe we should have several balkanized federal budgets:

1. General government operations

2. Support to states and localities

3. Direct transfer payments to individuals

4. Social security/civil service/military retirement/railroad retirement

5. Medicare/Medicaid/eventual federal health insurance

6. Highways and transportation.

7. National debt interest payment and eventual retirement

Each to be a separate budget supported by its own tax base and developed separately by Congress.

[freetobegay]

9. This ended up being my response.

First I would say your generalization about non tax payers not creating jobs is an overstatement. I was a contractor who would have created many jobs if i weren't being taxed to death by governmental (state and federal) requirements like Self Employment tax and alternative minimum tax, minimum wage (actually Prevailing wage) requirements, and a host of other 'non-tax' things like Workers Compensation, and other requirements..

I will be the first to admit that the tax codes have become a convoluted nightmare which I'll bet NO one on Earth really understands because there are more inconsistancies in them than a King James Bible. The codes need revision from top to bottom, and whether they would become a flat tax (which I prefer, but with no exceptions) or a progressive tax on income would be a matter of conjecture.

As Billy suggests above, wage earners are accepting a much greater percentage of the burden than ever. You also fail to mention that 1% of the population owns 90% of the wealth, so it stands to reason that they would pay a higher percentage....but for now we will try to compare apples to apples, instead of to kumquats.

As to who is "mooching at the federal breast", please explain to me why some of the richest corporations in America get subsidies, like tobacco companies, airlines, oil companies, and the list is endless... It is all part of why the tax codes need revision and made more fair. It's almost impossible to argue about taxes because the entire system is so corrupt and unfair one would spend hours arguing endless details and setting parameters first.

To properly argue about taxation one has to first set national priorities. What is hypocritical of the so called Christian right is their presumption that a Darwinian social structure which pits poor against the plutocrats in a lopsided battle for existence. If we are to have a country of extreme idle rich who pay no taxes and working poor who have to pay for any service or benefit from the government, then we are well on our way to pre revolution France...

[0rganism]

13. Going by AGI stats from the 2000 IRS data

the top 10% earners earned around 45% of the total income, and payed about 70% of the taxes. This is, at best, a mildly progressive tax structure. I haven't bothered to seek the stats out since bush rammed through his subsidy for the ultra rich, could be enlightening.

AGI is distinct from total wealth, of course, as it doesn't include any of the amazing tax shelters so popular with the investor class, or untallied assets. Nor does this include the SSI payroll tax, IIRC.

[OneTwentyoNine]

12. OK,so raise the labor wages to where non-tax paying workers pay..

This same crap is parroted by RW talk radio on a daily basis. One of the reasons that many workers pay little or no tax is because they live on the GD edge of POVERTY even while working 40 hours per week.

Saint Ronnie had a great deal to do with that. Wages were stagnant or even went down under his bungling of the economy. Meanwhile corporations kept raising prices during the 80's like nothing had changed from the Carter years.

These RW'ers want these people to pay taxes? Then give them a meaning full raise up to at least $10-11.00 per hour. Nah...much,much more profitable to keep them beat down to $5-6.00 per hour and then bitch about them not paying "their fair share". Same old RW BS hyprocrisy...

David

[Ganja Ninja]

14. I would be all for some sort of graduated flat tax.

A tax where if you make a certain amount you pay a certain percentage regardless of whether you own a home or two homes or how big your family is or your marital status. No credits, no deductions, no exemptions, no loop holes of any kind. We could also apply the same to corporations.
I would like to see a tax code that when written out is only about as thick as a magazine.

[OneTwentyoNine]

16. I wouldn't......

Look who the majority is that REALLY want a flat tax. Yeah...millionaires like Boortz,Limbaugh and the rest. Hmmm...wonder why? Because their rate will go down about 10% on a 22% flat tax and mine and my family will go up about 7-8%. Of course that 22% is bullshit,they'll raise it year after year when they find out its not enough.

Meanwhile I pay the same price for food,tires,clothes and other goods and services as do Limbaugh and Boortz.

Its like Molly Ivins said on TV at a speech she was doing. She made about $1 million last year with her column,books etc.. and paid about $400K in taxes. That left her with $600,000 in take home pay. She then asked the audience if anyone felt sorry for her because she was left with a paltry $600,000 to try and scrape by on.


David

[Ganja Ninja]

27. I know some of the proposals for a flat tax are flawed and unfair.

The basic concept is you get rid of all the loop holes and set fair rates based on the ability to pay. The percentage you pay based on your income is still debatable. I'm sure Boortz or Limbaugh's idea of what's fair is far different than what you or I would think is fair. And I'm talking graduated here not just one rate for all. The more you make the higher the percentage just like the brackets today only skewed more to the higher income earners. Boortz and Limbaugh wouldn't like my version of the flat tax.

[Blue Wally]

15. A Little Bit Misleading

Most of the money for the things you mention that government should be doing is paid for by property taxes, not income taxes.

[JuniperLea]

21. with the rising cost of real estate

maybe the wealthy will be the only ones paying for this after all.

[Blue Wally]

23. No, Juniper

Real estate taxes paid by your landlord show up in your monthly rent if you don't own a house or condo. Even if you do own a house or condo, they are buried in your monthly payment until you pay off your mortgage. It is only then, that the twice a year property tax torpedo explodes into your monthly budget.

[doni_georgia]

18. How about this . . .

Low income persons still have to buy food, clothing, cars, etc. Let's say someone makes $2,500 a month and is supporting a family on this income (this is the 1st year teacher income in my district, and I know several teachers in this boat who are supporting families on this). Off the top, the employer takes out insurance premiums - just the bare minimum coverage here, so $100 a month deducted. That gets us down to $2400. Then as a teacher in Georgia, you have to pay into the pension fund - that's another $100 a month, that gets us down to $2300. FICA deducts another $150 - $2150 a month, medicare another $36 - $2114, state witholding another $60 - $2054, and federal witholding - $80 bringing down the monthly net income to $1974. Let's say this person has 2 kids, and so rents a 3 bedroom apartment. That's a minimum of $750 a month where I live - $1224. They have a student loan to pay back - 100 a month - $1124. Let's say one of the kids is in daycare - $400 a month minimum - $724. Now, these people have to eat. Let's say that they spend $100 a week at the grocery store - $324 a month left. They also have to buy gasoline for the car to get to work and school. Saying the person is lucky enough to live close to both we'll count $20 a week - $240 left. As a mom of growing kids, this woman probably spends about $100 a month on clothing items (outgrown or wornout shoes, etc.) - leaving her with a whopping $140 left. Oops, I forgot mandatory car insurance. Let's say she owns a clunker so her insurance is around $60 a month. Now she has $80 a month. More than likely a person in this situation could not survive without some plastic to help get her through in cases of emergency (medical co-pays, car repairs, etc.) Let's say he monthly minimum on the Visa is $50. Thus leaving a whopping $30 a month remaining.

Now, add up the monthly federal taxes paid - $960. The government is drawing interest (making money) off this money each month. The woman will get all of this back at the end of the year, but still the government has made interest on the money, so technically she is still contributing to the federal piggy bank. Also, sales tax and gasoline tax paid by this person is a much greater percent of her income than say an individual making $100,000 a year. This person uses her yearly income tax return to pay down her Visa card, and to buy things her kids need. She puts every penny of it back into the economy. Not one single solitary penny of this woman's income is stashed away in tax shelters. Every cent she makes goes right back into play - back into the economy, which we know is the biggest factor in creating jobs.

[randr]

19. My guess is that the 5-10% of the population that

allegedly contribute 75% of the taxes also earn 90% of the income.

[radwriter0555]

22. children don't create jobs either. should we get rid of them

do you think?

[snippy]

24. Only extremely sick, sick fucks believe these lies.

The republican Tax Cut Monkeys use adjusted gross income rather than taxable income to generate their false claims of the poor not paying their fair share of taxes. But income taxes are not calculated based on adjusted gross income, they are calculated on taxable income. The republican Tax Cut Monkeys are greedy liars.

The republican Tax Cut Monkeys ignore all the other federal taxes paid by the poor to generate their false claims of the poor not paying their fair share of taxes. The republican Tax Cut Monkeys are greedy liars.

The bottom 50% of tax return filers includes over 5.7 million taxpayers with adjusted gross income between $22,000 and $25,000 who paid an average of $1,815 in income taxes in 2000.
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in03at.xls


That bottom 50% also includes over 6.5 million taxpayers with adjusted gross income between $19,000 and $22,000 who paid an average of $1,565 in income taxes in 2000.
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in03at.xls


These numbers go on and on. In 2001 it was not until a taxpayer's adjusted gross income was less than $11,000 that, on average, that taxpayer paid less than $500 in income taxes.
http://www.irs.ustreas.gov/pub/irs-soi/01in03at.xls

The republican Tax Cut Monkeys may think that $1,815 or $500 is nothing, but to the people at these income levels it is a significant amount of money. And those numbers do not include any of the other federal taxes paid by these people.


The republican Tax Cut Monkeys love their money more than they love their country.

[many a good man]

25. The heart of the deception

It is misleading to focus on income taxes and then make broad statements about taxes on the whole. Around half of US workers pay more more $$$ in payroll taxes than they pay in income tax.

According to David Cay Johnston, there was a respectable study done that totaled up ALL taxes paid by individuals (local, state, fees, etc.) and found that the poorest fifth paid only 2% less of their total annual income to taxes than the richest fifth.

[many a good man]

30. Wow! More than 90% of wage earners pay more payroll tax than income tax!

I did a fact check on my statement above to find the exact number and was shocked to find this answer from the Tax Policy Center (run by Brookings/Urban institutes).

Check it out:

[Bandit]

26. Talk about a dumb statement

"No non-tax paying citizen has ever created a job. Cutting their taxes won't ever increase employment."
If they don't pay taxes how can you cut their taxes? Do these people even read what they write?

[CBHagman]

28. I'd point out that the tax burden on middle- and low-income is higher.

Point out that the Social Security tax only applies to the first $62,000 or so of income (I forget the exact figure, but you can find it online somewhere, or in a book). Therefore, those of us making less than $62,000 or so are paying a much larger percentage of our income in Social Security taxes than, say, the Dick Cheneys of the country.

Point out that your average hardworking husband or wife or employed student pays all the sales taxes, energy taxes, telecommunications taxes every month, in addition to state and local taxes.

Point out that those of us who are renting get no tax breaks for our monthly payments, which can amount to more than a mortage payment, whereas even a wealth homeowner will be able to itemize his way out of some tax.

And let's have done with this silly argument that only the rich create jobs. It seems to be a talking point given out at the last RNC meeting, from what I can tell, because I hear people proclaiming all the time that only the wealthiest "create" jobs. Ask how our economy would get by if you eliminated 98 percent of consumers. The economy survives on the backs of the working class, the poor, and the middle class, not the top income earners.

[many a good man]

29. Right on!

n.b.: SS tax up to $82K now.