Dean Supporters Fear Gen Clark

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

The recent posts by hardcore Dean supporters questioning General Clark's qualifications and liberalism suggest that these people are very afraid of a Clark candidacy. Let me first say that I am very involved with the effort to draft Gen Clark, but if he is not drafted, then I will work just as hard to ensure that whoever the Democratic nominee is wins -- even if it's Howard Dean. I, a very liberal Democrat, support Gen Clark, a solidly liberal candidate not only because he WILL win but also because he could be the next FDR or JFK - a true leader who restores Democrats to power in all branches of government. But the Dean folks have already started attacking Gen Clark, arguing that he is not liberal enough and that he was a bad General. These attacks are completely unfounded as I have yet to hear any Republican, even Rush, say anything negative against Gen Clark. Clark's military record of accomplishment is unparalleled in post-WWII history. Clark is also a solidly liberal candidate. His stated positions are as follows:

Iraq War: Iraq did not pose an imminent threat; Would not have sent troops in the first place; Dealing with today's reality: supports getting as many Americans out as possible and replacing them with international forces

Military: Supports openly gay men and women in military but would not ram it down the military's throat like Pres Clinton tried to (my comparison not his); Supports creation of a new and different peacekeeping/nation building force

Abortion: Pro-choice

Taxes: Strongly Supports Progressive Taxation; Opposed BOTH Bush tax cuts

Environment: Sees the environment as 1 of 2 policy decisions that will truly matter in 100 years; As such, protecting environment is one of the highest priorities

Affirmative Action: Supports AA without rigid quotas -- just like the Supreme Court

Civil Liberties: Has concerns about the Patriotic Act and Ashcroft; Sees constitutional protections/legitimacy as the other policy decision that will truly matter in 100 years

Education/Health Care/Social Programs: Has made statements indicating he believes the civilian world should be more like the military in ensuring quality health care, education, etc. to its people

Gun Control: Similar to Dean - supports Assault Weapon Ban; Believes most guns laws are state decisions

No, Gen Clark has not laid out specific policy proposals on every issue yet, but his positions are solidly liberal/Democratic. Don't let the Deanies fool you: When Gen Clark does decide (we expect on or before Labor Day weekend), give him a solid look.

[wndycty]

1. A lot of Dean supporters on this board. . .

. . .have indicated that they could support Clark as well.

[deutsey]

10. I've always said that Clark seems like a decent choice

I support Dean, but Clark seems like a viable candidate, someone I would definitely support if he gets the nomination. Same goes for Kerry, for that matter.

They don't energize me like Dean has, but they're both worthy candidates and I can see them as president (but I'm still working for Dean right now!).

[HFishbine]

2. Sources

Do you have any links to substantiate you assertions?

[shance]

68. Exactly. What threads Rage? Lets compare numbers started by you anti-Dean

Take off the Mac truck sized chip off that shoulder.

You do the Dems no favors. Assuming you are one.

[meegbear]

3. Better watch out ....

They're gonna git cha! And git cha good!

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. I will

but the important thing is for him to get into the race. Until he does, and lets his views be known, it's all speculation.

What does he think about a grassroots campaign like Dean's? Or is he more interested in obtaining big money?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

8. In fact

Clark is only considering running because of the enormous grassroots support he has already witnessed for his candidacy. Next to Kerry and Dean, two established Dem candidates, Clark has the third highest supporters on Meetup.com -- and he hasn't even declared yet ... just think what the groundswell of support will be like when he does declare.

[deutsey]

Great!

The more people all the candidates can energize to get involved, the better! That's why it's so important that we don't go after each other...one day one of these candidates will win the nomination, and if all of us have developed animosity in the meantime, support for that nominee will be weakened.

[HFishbine]

39. Incorrect

Dean in 2004 (>85,500 members)
Kerry in 2004 (>8,600)
Kucinich in 2004 (>7,900)
Clark in 2004 (>7,600)

http://www.meetup.com/browse/polact/

[CMT]

5. I'm a Dean supporter and I don't fear Wesley Clark

and I could vote for him if nominated. In fact, we had a poll of Dean supporters a few days ago and the people that are Dean supporters second choice for the nomination are in this order: John Kerry, Dennis Kucinich, and Wes Clark.

frankly I feel a Clark run would hurt Kerry most, but time will tell.

[soleft]

9. I think his speaking out about Iraq will help Dean

And he's probably my second choice too.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

6. what's Clark position on corporate trade treaties?

NAFTA, GATT/WTO, CAFTA, etc. Very important issues.

[ThorsteinVeblen]

7. I don't fear Clark

I just wish he would shit or get off the pot.

1.) Is he a Democrat or Republican. Why won't he come clean on this issue?

2.) Is he running or not?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

15. Strategy

Clark knows that to beat Bush and to build the kind of bipartisan governance strategy necessary to be the next FDR or JFK, he must appeal to all - Repubs, Dems, Indi's. While his appeal to the Repubs is purely based on his leadership abilities and military experience, I think he hopes this appeal will help usher in a Dem House and/or Senate. So the smart thing is: Don't jump in too soon; Appear to be solidly middle of the road. But from his policy positions, he is obviously a Democrat.

[HFishbine]

42. Serious Question

"he is obviously a Democrat"

But since we don't know for sure, I'm wondering, how many Clark supporters would still support him if he ran as a republican?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

56. If My Aunt Had Nads

she'd be my uncle.

Wes Clark is not a Republican

[HFishbine]

63. "Wes Clark is not a Republican"

Source? Link?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I Can't Find The Link

but it was an interview with Wesley Clark Jr. and he said his dad is definitely a Democrat. Maybe a Clark supporter can link it.

Wes Clark

is pro gay rights

pro affirmative action

pro choice

anti-Bush tax cuts

anti-Gulf War 2

anti American unilateralism.

If Wes Clark is a Republican I'm the Terminator.

[tameszu]

89. Wesley Clark Jr.: "My dad is not a Republican"

Wesley Clark Jr.'s statements on the Daily Kos website are http://www.haloscan.com/comments.php?user=dailykos&comment=003322#13404">here.

In case you don't feel like clicking yourself, here's the good stuff:

"I don't know if he will run but he'll make an announcement either way (my guess is at the very latest labor day). I understand that the wait might be frustrating for people in the DraftClark movement and the Democratic party - but if he runs, I assume that those who think he is a good candidate now will probably not hold it against him just because he waited a few extra weeks.

He won't be running as a Republican.

He IS NOT campaigning for a VP slot.

He is very progressive on every issue - he's stated that global warming is happening, that he's pro-choice, that he's pro-affirmative action, that he's pro-union, that the tax code should remain progressive, that multilateral solutions should be found for the world's security concerns, that he was against the decision to go to war in Iraq and that we need stronger social safety nets. I don't know what other positions people need to find out which direction he leans but it seems fairly clear to me.

He is most of all interested in the battle of ideas and not that of individuals (to include himself). I'm sure he'll help out whomever wins the nom for the Democrats when it comes time to bring down Bushco - whether he mounts a campaign himself or not."

(SNIP)

Wesley Clark Jr. | 07.09.03 - 5:05 pm

[sendero]

99. Exactly....

.... the word is "Labor Day". Well, if I were him I'd jump in as soon as I had made a decision. I really cannot see how waiting helps him in any way. Maybe he's just trying to get a team put together.

As for "fearing" Clark, someone is projecting. I don't "fear" any candidate. If I think they would make a better president, have a better chance of showing that pretender the door, I'd support them in a heartbeat.

I don't have a bet on any single horse. Of the ones running now, Dean is my choice. If Clark decides to run, I would and will consider him on the merits. He looks pretty good based on what I know so far. ALL I CARE ABOUT IS BEATING BUSH* :)

[MODemocrat]

104. deseo, I believe that you speak for many of us

I do not fear anyone who can beat George W. Bush, but for now I'm enjoying supporting Howard Dean. He gives me such hope, and I'm very excited about his campaign. For me, it was a very hard decision for me to make, especially at my age, because there are so many things I like about most of the candidates. It will not bother me to vote for
any democrat, as long as he or she doesn't "walk on eggs for Bush."

[GumboYaYa]

11. Not this Dean supporter.

I'm reluctant to jump ship to the Clark bandwagon since he is not in the race and also since I don't know his positions on many issues. I do think Clark looks good from what little I know. Also several people I respect quite a bit, including those on this board, are strong proponents of Clark. I value those opinions.


I think Dean and Clark both compliment each other frequently. I saw Clark do so last night.

I've said it before and I mean it. I will vote for Chim Chim the stock picking monkey if he has a chance to beat Bush.

[quinnox]

12. If Clark does

enter the race, you can believe there will be some Dean supporters who will start attacking him. It's already happening a little in politics and campaigns forum. There is a small group of Deanies who are fanatical about him, and are like attack dogs when it comes to any other candidates.

[CMT]

23. if he gets in the race and shows strength you can be sure that

supporters of all the leading candidates will start attacking him especially if he does well enough in the polls to hurt others. I wouldn't limit it to Dean.

[LuminousX]

67. Of Course

Dean loyalists are going to be loyal to Dean, no matter who enters the race. Just like Kerry loyalists will be loyal to Kerry, etc. etc.

[mot78]

98. Clark vs. Dean Wouldn't be Pleasant

Even though they're both on the same side of the political spectrum, the media will make Dean vs. Clark look like "McGovernite vs. DLCer" mainly because Clark's a southerner, and because there had been some buzz about Clark amongst DLCers at the Philly convention. THis could result in a nasty primary if the Faux cabal has it's way. If this is the case, then if Dean doesn't get the nomination, a lot of Deanies who would otherwise support Clark would go to Nader or someone else who could tap into the same anti-DLC rhetoric that Dean used. I don't want Nader to gain any momentum, and I hope that Clarksters and Deanies don't start an intra-party war.

[sendero]

108. you are right....

... there are some "true believers" in every camp. But that doesn't reflect badly on Dean or the majority of his supporters.

The thing is, if a *better* candidate than Dean comes along, I will *jump for joy*. Because he is a damn good candidate - if Clark or Ralph the Swimming Pig comes along with a better platform, better rhetoric, etc - then Hot Damn that can be nothing but good!

[realFedUp]

13. He's a good guy as far as I can tell

but frankly he hasn't run for any office before,
I don't really know where he stands and why he
wants to run,
I don't want a president whose only background has
been the military and is just finding his way now
after retirement,

I think these are all valid questions to ask of anyone
who is serious about running the country and I
don't find your original post friendly to those of
us who do support Dean right now.

[dfong63]

14. clark's track record in electoral politics:

... zip.

Clark's position on usage of depleted uranium, cluster bombs, napalm, and the future development of other inhumane armaments: unknown.

Clark's party allegiance: unknown.

[VermontDem2004]

16. I am not afraid of Clark's candidacy

The only thing I am afraid of is 4 more years of Bush.

[Khephra]

17. Fear Clark?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

cough..cough...

Ok, I'm better now.

I've always felt that Dean could beat the entire GOP Machine. Clark ain't got nothing on that.

Good luck to you Clark supporters. I really do wish you the best of luck. I look at Clark quite favorably, so leave me out of any Dean/Clark feuds, ok?

[Larkspur]

18. Clark will affirm Dean's anti-Iraq-war stances as the right choice

and Al From will be pooping in his draws that 2 popular anti-war candidates will be campaigning and taking votes and money away from his chosen one, Joe Lieberman.

Clark has a BIG problem. September is the last month in the 3rd quarter of campaign raising, and it doesn't give him much chance to build an organization and raise funds for that quarter.

Dean's organization is VERY MATURE and extremely well organized, even though they operate on a tight wad's budget. Dean knows how to keep his troops enthusiastic and committed to contributing when he calls for it. Clark is WAY BEHIND that kind of organization, and Dean's rise from obscurity to tops in the polls was done with sweat, strategy, and shoe leather. Can Clark handle the kind of schedule Dean runs on?

Dean has got MOMENTUM. Clark will have some initially, but if his campaign organization is poorly organized or the members are new to campaigning or just don't know each other well, that is where Clark will lose momentum.

[tameszu]

90. I agree completely with your last sentence

"Dean has got MOMENTUM. Clark will have some initially, but if his campaign organization is poorly organized or the members are new to campaigning or just don't know each other well, that is where Clark will lose momentum."

I think Clark has a lot of promise (as most of you should have guessed) but I don't deny that his big thing is a "splash" factor. If he doesn't come in with a sustained "bang!" among Dem voters in the 1st month, he will be in big trouble.

But, in a way, this is good for the Democratic Party. Everyone should know pretty quickly after he enters whether he's the real deal or not.

[Kahuna]

101. You have no idea what organization Clark has lined up. I'm willing

to bet that when he announces you will see a professional organization already in place.

[bowens43]

19. I will support who ever gets the nomination

but at this point in time clark is completely irrelevant. He's not a candidate. If he was a candidate, I wouldn't vote for him in the primaries because of his military background. A general is used to issuing orders and having them immediately obeyed, this expectation is incompatible with our form of government. I am very skeptical that he could leave that behind.

of course, I could be wrong, it wouldn't be the first time.

[tameszu]

91. Well, gvien that the most controversial moment in Clark's career

occurred when a British General serving under him in Kosovo disobeyed a direct order and the Pentagon eventually changed its mind and sided with the Brit, I don't think he'll have thati particular problem.

[DagmarK]

20. Fear is not the term.......

But from the furthest view out from the view of Clark..... I know I, for one, shudder at the thought of putting ANY military person into the Oval Office. I don't care what his platform says...... we are working to bring less military into our lives and the world. Doesn't make sense to install a military dude.

And...if anyone has noticed.....there just so happens to be a little mini inter-govtal war going on: Longterm Pentagaon and CIA infrastructure VS the neocons. Seems to me that we need as president who is civilian-oriented and liberal.

I shudder when I think about the people of this country (all of us) not heeding the historical lessons of military takeovers across this globe. We are not immune. I am not suggesting that Clark himself has some evil plan in mind -- but by virtue of his development throughout his life, the guy is total military.

I want sooooo much more for this country......not only for us, but for the peoples of the world. WE have a social compact to uphold......

[JustJoe]

21. Dean backer very impressed with Clark & his

tenacity in sitting on two fences at once.

[VermontDem2004]

22. I've heard Rush, Hannity and Anthrax

call him a war criminal during the Kosovo campaign by the way. They said that he forced troops to fly so high in the air to minimize U.S. Causualties, but caused more civilian casualties.

[diplomats]

28. Since when do they care about civilian casualties?

I guess only when a Democratic president is in office. Haven't heard a peep from them on Iraqi civilian casualties.

[Kahuna]

102. So now we're using Rush, Annthrax and Hannity as valid sources????

You're kidding, right?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Said It Before In A Previous Thread

General Clark has the opportunity to be this election's Robert Kennedy with Howard Dean playing the tragic role of Eugene McCarthy.

Both Bobby Kennedy and Eugene McCarthy were anti-war but Bobby Kennedy was better positioned to make the anti-war position palatabe to the masses because he was able to portrait himself as an opponent of the war who opposed it from a position of strength not weakness.

Think about it. Which Democrat has the bona fides to challenge Bush on national security. John Kerry could have played this role but he chose to support Bush on Gulf War 2 and weakened his position. That is a statement of fact and not a value judgement on my part. Howard Dean deserves credit for opposing the war but does he have the political bonafides to take the fight to Bush on this topic. Sadly, I think not.

There is one potential candidate who has opposed the war and has the right stuff to take the fight to Bush. That person is the former Supreme Allied Commander;General Wesley Clark.

[ronnykmarshall]

25. That's just crazy talk!

While I'm not committed (well some people think I SHOULD be committed .... if you catch my drift) to any candidate at this point, I tend to lean towards Dean.

I'd like to think that supporters of Dean don't "fear" Clark or anyone.

What I really hate is that "If XXXXXXX is nomintated and not XXXXXX I won't vote" bullshit.

To thoses of you I say, just fucking vote for Bush and shut up.

[JaneQPublic]

26. Nope, but he'd make a great VP

Sorry, but when the economy is most people's #1 issue, we need someone in the presidency who has proven experience balancing a budget.

But having Clark on the Dean ticket would make a killer team: a Doctor AND a General!

[DemocratSinceBirth]

37. Did You Bush Today Massaging The Troops

Bush and Rove are going to use their quarter of a billion dollars to make this debate about national security.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

27. Clark can win the general election, but can he win the primary?

Dean can win the primary, but I don't think he can win the general.

[chaska]

29. Man, why you want to stir up trouble like that?

I, for one, have been working very hard to keep us fighting against Bush, and not each other. This kind of childish infighting is not what the Clark campaign is all about. If you were a true supporter you'd know that. I smell a rat. I've been participating in almost daily Clark threads for the last two months. I don't recall having seen your name in any of those threads.

If you are for real, know that we Clark people don't pick fights with our fellow dems. General Clark has time and time again refused to take the bait when offered the chance attack the other candidates.

Back up and start again, please.

Dean people please ignore this thread. My appologies. I hope this thread dies a quick death.

[tameszu]

96. I agree: no need to antagonize supporters of any other Dem candidate

Seriously. If the U.S. (and the world!) ever needed the opposite party to sincerely do a "let the best (hu)man win" primary, it's now.

Neither Dean nor Clark nor their supporters should fear one another. If either wins, he will have a good chance of taking down Bush and I hope draw on the enthusiasm of the other's supporters to make it even more likely.

[Kolesar]

30. I read your post, and I would choose Dean

Primarily because Dean has been working on his campaign for a long time. Note that Wes Clark has yet to announce. He won't even proclaim that he is a Democrat, even (!).

Clark has no electoral or governing experience. Perhaps he could appoint some splendid people to run the government if he were elected. That would be fine.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

35. George Washington and Dwight Eisenhowerer Didn't Have Any

electoral or governing experience and they did just fine.

[Leftist78]

53. I wouldn't exactly say that

Washington and Eisenhower were the "hands off" type when it came to being president.

Washington signed every bill that came across his desk unless his advisors thought it was unconstitutional.

Eisenhower made a political career of being as vague on issues as possible and allowing his cabinet to run the show as often as he could.

That's what career military men usually bring to the table when they become president. Another good example of the same type of thing is Grant.

I would accept Clark as the nominee, but I would prefer someone who has the POLITICAL (quite different from military) leadership skills necessary to run the show rather than someone who would be a figurehead controlled by a team of advisors and cabinet members.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

62. You Are Entitled To Your Opinion

but historians and political scientists put Washington and Ike in the top ten list of presidents.

Grant was a bust.

[Leftist78]

70. simple reason for Washington

He was the first and he set the term of presidents by not taking a third term. (Presidents were allowed more before the 22nd amendment) If you're looking for historical importance among the first few presidents, you should look at Jefferson. He is far more significant to the office of the presidency than Washington.

Ike was president during a time of post-war prosperity which he had very little to do with. I doubt he's on the majority of historians or polysci people's lists (I have a masters in polysci and I know he's not on mine). If you can produce a link that says otherwise I will eat a little crow.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

72. btw-I did post grad work in Government at FSU

I'm looking for the link now.


While I'm looking for the link I will say Ike and Gerald Ford were the most tolerable Republican presidents of the past fifty years.


Also, read The Hidden Hand, about Ike's presidency. The author makes a plausible case that Ike was much more involved than we give him credit for.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

76. Voila-Instead of Eating Crow plese send a donation to the Draft

Clark movement.

Ike comes in at #9 in a poll of eminent historians, law professors, and political scientists:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/hail/rankings/html

[Leftist78]

79. #9

right behind Reagan!!! I guess it's true what they say about opinions. I just don't know what it says about our educated classes when they put that war criminal at #8.

They've also got the man responsible for the Indian removal policy that the Trail of Tears was a part of at #6. I guess waging a terrorist war in Nicaragua, and removing undesirable people from land so you can have it isn't enough to take these two off the list.

I'll eat a little crow (donating money to draft Clark is an unacceptable punishment :)), but I think the list you linked to says a lot more about the academics in America than it does Ike's presidency.

We should all do ourselves a favor and remember this slightly modified version of Newton's Law. "For each expert, there is an equal and opposite expert."

[DemocratSinceBirth]

81. Another Interesting Point

is that historians are starting to rehabilitate the Grant presidency.

[acerbic]

31. Some proof with that claim?

The recent posts by hardcore Dean supporters questioning General Clark's qualifications and liberalism

What posts? Links, please? I browsed back here to look at some recent "anti-Clark" posts and nothing in the ones I saw indicated that the posters were "hardcore Dean supporters". Of course there CAN be some: just show them.

If no proof, which would be so easy to provide when the question is about what has been posted here, the conclusion can be only that Clark supporters are so afraid of Dean that they need to fabricate accusations...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. I Have Seen Threads

where Gen Clark was called a killer and that's his lone accomplishment.

I have also seen threads accusing him of waging an unjust war against Milosevic.

I have also seen threads accusing him of being the mastermind behind Waco.

[acerbic]

44. What about the essential part of your claim?

where Gen Clark was called a killer and that's his lone accomplishment.
I have also seen threads accusing him of waging an unjust war against Milosevic.
I have also seen threads accusing him of being the mastermind behind Waco.

Yes, so have I, but were they posted by hardcore Dean supporters as you claim?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

48. I Didn't Claim They Were Dean Supporters But I Believe At Least One Is

[VermontDem2004]

32. Go Dean

I posted this in the wrong thread

[Northwind]

33. I am as afraid of Clark

as I am the other 300 million some-odd Americans who are not even running.

[Felix Mala]

34. Crawford TX Weather

My guess is that a bone chilling breeze blows through the environs of Crawford, TX this week every time Gen. Clark's name is mentioned. If Clark enters the race, gets the nomination and debates aWol, he could wear his uniform... and aWol could wear his "flight suit" costume. Trick or Treat!!!

[TakebackAmerica]

54. An open letter to every Howard Dean Supporter

To all Deanies,

If Clark dosen't run I will knock every door, call everybody I can to Elect Howard Dean, but now just isn't the right time

Clark can and WILL beat Bush.

The Sad reality is that Clark can't win the primaries.

PLEASE Support General Clark, Please.

Let's not have a bloody Primary.
That's just what Rove is counting on.

So I ask every Deanie to vote Clark/Dean in 04.

In 2012 I will work hard to elect Vice President Dean, President.

Than Dean can work the same magic that has inspired millions!

[Eloriel]

87. I'm not sure I've ever seen anything quite so insulting

for BOTH candidates -- well, make that the one candidate and the non-Democratic tease.

Eloriel

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

36. Proof

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=108&topic_id=20332

I've seen several other posts by Dean supporters but they are days old and impossible to locate ... here's one example though

[CMT]

49. that is proof?

Just one person who started a thread. You gotta do better than that. I'm sure some Dean people may "fear" Clark, but not most of us from what I've heard and seen talking with supporters. I'm sure some other campaigns may "fear" the unknown too.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. I Didn't Say Dean Supporters Feared Clark

I just was citing the threads where he was trashed big time

[acerbic]

61. "Dean Supporters Fear Gen Clark"

That's from the subject line of the post that started this silliness. Compare to "I Didn't Say Dean Supporters Feared Clark".

This crap is more worthless than usual...

[DemocratSinceBirth]

75. I'm confused

1) I never stated that Dean supporters feared Clark

2) I never stated that Dean supporters were trashing Clark.

In my best Bob Dole voice "stop lying about my record"

[acerbic]

109. Are you not the same person as "RageAgainstTheirMachine"?

From your reply to a reply to "RageAgainstTheirMachine"'s post in this subthread it looked like you were and you just forgot to log in with the different name... :-)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

111. In My Best Joseph Welch voice

who said to Joe McCarthy "have you no decency"

First you lied about what I said. Then when you were proven wrong you call me an impostor.


Quit while you're behind.

(-:

[Zuni]

38. If Dean and Clark

would work together, there is a ticket that could bring down the Bush/Cheney junta like the deck of cards it is.

[MiltonLeBerle]

50. Clark/Dean could be a good ticket.

But the other way around wouldn't interest me.

[dfong63]

40. you got it backwards, dude

supposedly, Dean supporters fear Gen Clark? i think you got it backwards. Dean is out there campaigning, debating, taking potshots at the chimp-in-chief, and making us proud to be democrats again. Clark is playing coy, hiding behind this silly "draft" campaign, and refusing to even declare his party allegiance.

Clark is one who's displaying "fear" here.

and, how can someone who won't even come right out and commit to the dem party, expect the dem party activists, the machinery, to fall in behind him if/when he finally makes up his mind? what arrogance to think he can just parachute in from nowhere and take over. the man has nil as far as a political track record, and yet he immediately wants to run for the most difficult and most contested political job in the nation, and he expects us to bet everything on him - a man whose months-long flirtation with candidacy, either indicates indecision or scheming.

in my opinion, this election is too important to bet everything on a political debutante like Clark. if he wants to be president, let him first prove himself by getting elected to the senate or a governor's office. Clark has never been elected - he is no more qualified to be president than Al Sharpton.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

46. "Clark has never been elected-he is no more qualified to be president

than Al Sharpton"

Fill in the blank "has never been elected-he is no more qualified to be president than Al Sharpton"


George Washington

Ulysses S. Grant

and

Dwight Eisenhower

Washington and Eisenhower are in most every historian and political scientist's ten best presidents.

Touche.

[Cha]

43. ^That's utter fiddlefaddle and rot! Dean supporters don't "Fear"

Anything! We Have No Fear!

[Leftist78]

45. Afraid?

I don't think so. I wouldn't support him in the primary or any other person who has no background in politics. He's a career military man, and that alone is enough to turn me off.

The other problem with him is obvious. He's a fence sitter. He won't announce whether he's going to run or not. Worse than that, he won't even announce his party. I'm relatively sure he's a Democrat, but if he is then why all the secrecy? He's pulling a Powell. That's why he's so popular right now. It's easy to like somebody who hasn't taken any stands yet, and has no political record. When you start to speak out on the issues is when you find out where your real support is. Leaving all that aside, if he did announce and managed to win the primary, I would vote for him, but he's defiantly not my first choice.

[Paragon]

47. Here's what I'm scared of:

People who think that the Dems have to run a military man in order to compete with the completely false notion that Republicans are stronger on defense and security.

If Bush & the Pukes have proven anything, it's that they don't have the first fucking clue how the world works or how to defend this country.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

51. We Agree That Bush Is Screwing Up Our Foreign Policy

but neither you or I could make that case to the nation.

Wes Clark has the bona fides to be heard and make the case.

[Paragon]

55. By virtue of being part of the machine?

Sorry - we ALL have the "bona fides"; you, me, AND Howard Dean...and Dean will use 'em to "make the case".

[DemocratSinceBirth]

57. I'm Afraid Not

I believe perception trumps reality and a good percentage of Americans really believe Son of Bush is a good commander in chief who's making us safer.


"We must take man as he is not the way we want him to be."

-Edmund Burke

[DagmarK]

60. So we should just feed and enable the public's DELUSION

that bush is a great commander?

Isnt' that kind of NUTS???? That makes us part of the problem as well.......

How's about educating the populace with the TRUTH???

[DemocratSinceBirth]

74. We Can Challenge Bush By Putting Up A Candidate Who

has unquestionable national security bona fides.


And people have their own "truths" which are more or less impervious to challenge.

For instance, I doubt I could change your mind on many things so why would you think other folks are more malleable.

[Petrodollar Warfare]

58. My dream is either a Dean/Clark or a Clark/Dean combo!!

These are the 2 men I respect the most (and I was/am a Gore supporter). Each has strengths that the other lacks, but the combination would seem symbiotic in many ways.

Remember, the Bush junta is going to run 2004 on three things:

1) War on Terror!
2) National Security!
3) More War on Terror! - fear mongering & politicalization of 9/11 :-(

They don't want to talk about the economny or healthcare, they want to keep us scared and unnearved - afraid to change horses midstream - which is nonsense. We must change horses or our stature in the world and our economy will be toast. Anyhow, this is where Clark could excel if teamed up with Dean to mitigate Rove's "Focus on War" political campaign strategy. He has recently stated he was agaist the Iraq war, and his national security credentials trump the chickenhawks - much to Rove's dismay. Clark would be a "calming" influence with his methodical approach to things. Indeed, the EU would prefer to deal with Clark than Cheney any day of the year.

Reminder: Gore was hurt by the gun issue in TN, WV, ARK and other places - I heard some of those Heston ads in 2000, and they were devestatingly effective. With a Dean/Clark combo, the NRA ads will be much less effective with the white men in the southern and mountain regions. (Clark likes to hunt, and Dean has an 'A' rating from the NRA...) IMO -a more pro-gun Dem ticket is key for 2004.

The main problem with Clark if he wants the 'top slot' on the ticket is that he will need an immediate influx of about $10 million dollars or so for campaigning this fall, which Dean has, but Clark does not. I talked to other Dean supporters at this month's Meet-Up re their opinion of a Dean/Clark ticket, and everyone was receptive to that combo. Dean has the political/policy knowlegde, and Clark has the national security/multilaterialist credentials. I think Clark's new book comes out in Sept (next month), and will offer a critique of the Bush/neocon approach to the "war on terror." Should be a good read.

If the 2004 debate can focus more on the economy and less on the "fear factory warmongering" of the junta - the better off the country will be. My ultimate dream is that Clinton and Gore openly endorse a Dean/Clark combo as the right "prescription" to fix all that has gone wrong with our country under GWB. If Gore could do this before the primaries, all the better.

In any event, I have given money to Dean, but I would happily contribute to Clark's campaign if he entered as well. These 2 men are so much more competent than Bush that I would happily support them in anyway I could, and if they turn out to be the 2004 team - hot damn!

[ElementaryPenguin]

69. I agree with you, G!!

What a strong combo those two would make!

[dean4america]

59. nope

From a candidate stand point, I don't fear Clark at all. I think he will take more votes away from Kerry than Dean. Dean's supprt goes way beyond the "issues," especially since a) he's bringing NEW people into the political process, b) many supporters disagree with him on some of the issues, but will vote for him anyway because of what he stands for, and c) his on-the-ground organization dwarfs that of the other candidates.

[CMT]

64. the thing I love is that people always use broad statements

in regards to Dean supporters like we all fear Clark, or we all disrupt other threads,ect. when it is more likely that it is the other way around. Other campaigns seem to fear Dean or else there wouldn't be so many attacks on him.

[lindashaw]

66. I'm watching the health debate on C-Span,

and I have found something I can support in every Democrat candidate who has spoken. Even Gephardt. Hope it doesn't come down to that....I just want the Republican out and the Democrat in. *sigh*

[LuminousX]

65. I can't fear something that doesn't exist

How can I fear a Clark candidacy when there isn't one?

Until he declares, he is merely a distraction from the men and women who are out there capaigning and working hard to get the people energized and ready to vote.

[TacticalPeek]

71. Ya'll keep your eyes on the prize: victory in '04.

Sure, we need and will benefit from debate and contest among the dem candidates and their supporters. But only up to a point, which is somewhere this side of rancor and division.

There exists now plenty of possibility to take down the joker in the WH next year (if he is still in office). But KKKarl will not go gently. He would love for us to give him more weapons in his smelly bunker.

Do NOT give him a divided dem party!

[depakid]

73. Clark has no money, no organization and no executive experience

So, what is there to be afraid of?

[saoirse]

95. What you talkin bout Willis?

No executive experience? The man was the Supreme Allied Commander
in Europe.

He has the organization too, even if it is "in waiting." And money
won't be a problem (and, the general is also an investment banker).

[depakid]

107. He's never dealt with a legislature

Of course he's had military and diplomatic experiences, but that's a different political animal than getting your legislation through or blocking contrary legislation. That's executive experience and even presidents who've had it often take the first two years to get up to speed.

If by organization you're referring to the nascent draft Clark movement, that pales in comparison to Dean's 50 state, grassroots troops.

By the way, I have nothing particular against Clark- he's just not as good a candidate as Dean and in any event, he's likely to suck more votes from Kerry and Lieberman.

[LEFTofLEFT]

77. MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX

I'm not a Dean supporter and I fear Clark.

If he does not express his concern with the power wielded by the MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, he should be feared.

[Fleshdancer]

80. Dean supporters fear Clark?

I'm a Dean supporter and I don't fear Clark. In fact, I know many Dean supports and not one of them fear Clark. Do you know something about me that I don't know? Which "Deanies" are trying to "fool" others about Clark? I want names because I'm offended that there would be some sort of massive conspiracy from "Deanies" and I wasn't even asked. Not that I would participate since, again, I don't fear Clark, but it would be nice to atleast be asked. I didn't even get an email. lol

[shance]

86. Gloria, I am REALLY sorry - I sent out the email and

I must have misplaced your address.

Our next Dean Supporters Fear Clark meeting will be scheduled some time next week.

Unfortunately we havent figured out a convenient time to meet because we are just so busy fearing Clark.

:)***

[Emboldened Chimp]

82. Wrong

I'm a Dean supporter and I like what Clark has to say. If he's the nominee, I would be proud to vote for him.

[ibegurpard]

83. Here's my problem

If the man plans on running as a candidate for the Democratic nomination then why won't he SAY he's a Democrat? Is that so unreasonable? And if he's going to run, what the f*** is he waiting for?!

[TakebackAmerica]

93. People are tired of Partisan Bickering

Clark has Progressive stances.
But he is NOT a partisan democrat.

He does not want to ALIENATE the public.

His stances on Choice, Global Warming, Economy,Health Care on are very rogressive.

He is mild mannered, but by no means weak.

He has the rare abilty to speak for Democrats, Greens, Independents, and Moderate Republicans.

He is a true 21ST CENTURY President.
He is talking about uniting not dividing, healing the wounds Bush has caused.
R
ight now is the time for a uniter not a divider.
Dean and Clark are very similar.

Both are Pro-Guns,Pro Choice etc.

Now is not the time for a Partisan Ideologue.

Clark/Dean 04

[Trek234]

94. Then run as an independent Clark

If you're so non-partisan.

If he wants to run on the dem ticket he damn well better be partisan!

Ultimately he (if he does run) will run on the dem ticket eh? I guess that just shoots his non-partisan stance to hell in one swift move.

You're argument is BS.

[poskonig]

84. Hey man, I love General Clark.

I don't know how well Clark will campaign, but he is definitely a high class candidate. I'd rather see Dean and Clark representing the party during the primaries than the Bush suck-ups that voted for the war.

[JohnKleeb]

85. what you talking about

Many Dean supporters have Clark as a backup.

[sugarcookie]

88. Clark is #2 on my list

I make sure to watch everytime I hear he is on TV. So far I like what I see, but I would have to see a whole lot more before I would consider changing from Dean to Clark.

[rustydad]

92. My dream team!

I like all the Dems now running except smokin Joe. I have even donated to Kerry some cash. But if I could advise the powers to be this is what I would propose. Before the primary Gore decides to run. He picks his team immediately. Clark for VP. Kerry for Sec of State, Cuchinic for a new office, Sec of Peace and Reconciliation. Mossley Brun, Ambasador to UN, Sharpton, Commerce Dept, Dean, Health and Human Services and Graham head of Dept of Defence. For Nader I would suggest he be appointed Special Prosecuter to go after all the stolen money we lost under Bush (trillions)and put all the guilty behind bars including the entire Bush cabinet. Bob
:dem:

[farmbo]

97. I'm one of "these people" and, we're more sinned- against than sinning.

The "Deanies" have not been starting Clark-bashing threads. We respect him immensely, but know he will hurt the DLC security hardliners like Kerry and Lieberman more that Dean. They are the ones who will be utterly devastated by his candidacy.

Although asked repeatedly, you have utterly failed to cite examples to prove the bogus "theory" set forth in your thread. On the other hand, this thread itself, with it's snide, degoratory tone, is evidence of the Dean bashing which has been running rampant on DU since Dean's surge began.

This whole thread is a "strawman" argument which would make Rush Limbaugh blush with envy.

[dansolo]

100. He will hurt Kerry more

His positions on most issues are very similar to Kerry's. He completely trumps Kerry's military background, and he doesn't have the Iraq vote hanging over his head. If he decides to run, he will be my second choice after Dean.

[Monaco]

103. I don't fear Clark

,in fact, I find him a potentially attractive candidate. I would be disappointed,though, if he sailed to the nomination after Howard Dean has done all the hard work of getting the issues on the table, energizing the base of the party, and taking the heat for opposing the war against Iraq. I think the comparison between RFK and McCarthy is a very good one. I would feel the same way I did, the night RFK beat McCarthy in the CA primary - before RFK was shot, of course.

[Lefty48197]

105. Hi, I'm Wesley Clark

and I represent the electable wing of the Democratic party.

[Monaco]

106. Touche'

[farmboxer]

110. Gen. Clark Good Choice, But I Will Support Anyone Who

wins the Democratic nomination! Bush is the worst President in America's history! I also like President Gore!

[NicRic]

113. Agree , !!

After listening to Al Gores speech to the truth out meeting ,made me wish even more that he had waited and not annouced he was not running ! Iam still hoping for a wave of Gore supporters ,getting the Dem convention to Draft our President in Exile ,President Al Gore !

[REP]

112. Don't Know Much About Clark

I've only heard good things about him. He's not my first choice, but he's not my last choice!