Freeper Gets DUer fired.......Thread 2

[Moderator]

Original thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1768422&mesg_id=1768422

[Moderator]

1. kick

[WLKjr]

2. Reply to uberSub post #291, Thread 1

You just go with the flow.

[never cry wolf]

3. Post from the victim

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1770898

(thx molly)

[leftyandproud]

4. did the guy post on company time?

if so, its gonna be a tough sell to get his job back or take any recourse in my opinion.

Think about it..

Posting on company time...on a company computer...asking for advice on how to directly disobey an order from the boss...

I'm sorry the guy lost his job...and I know I will be unpopular for saying this, but it seems to me this really has nothing to do with free speech, and EVERYTHING to do with behavior.

[WLKjr]

5. From what is stated

he did so on his own time.

[ibegurpard]

6. You misunderstand the outrage

It's about someone lurking on a message board and then using information to get someone fired. Freepers should be outraged about it as well because it puts them in danger too.

[mwar]

8. Exactly!

If the station made the discovery on it's own machines through proxy records or an intercepted e-mail all of the aforementioned management ass kissing might have some validity. But that was not the situation. This is about some jerk-off freep thinking that he can play games with somebody else's life.

Here's a hypothetical for those who might see fit to defend his behavior: Give him a gun with a shitty sight, maybe he can shoot at people randomly from a rooftop, because after all, his chances are slim that he might actually hit someone.

[uberSub]

24. If I was a "freeper"

I'd be hesitant to support the action of another FR user "outing" someone for the stated purpose of getting them fired. I may not like a lot of people on the message boards I frequent, and I may not like what they say, but that does not mean I would want them to be out of a job. That person you get fired might have a wife and kids? How would you explain yourself to the family?

Still, if misanthrope had just kept his trap shut. He might have carried out his subtle anti-Reagan Reagan show with no one the wiser (save for some sharp listeners) and nothing would have happened. Misantrhope has to come in for a couple of hard noogies on that mistake alone.

[datasuspect]

have you read any of the background threads

lane flynn's initial post on FR debating whether to report this guy was supported by a wholesale YES-SAYING on the parts of the freep-nazis posting.

you're not engaging in revisionism are you?

[uberSub]

51. I admit I did not read the FR thread

And you'll notice my message did not defend FR, it stated what my feeling would have been had I been an FR user reading Flynn's original post for the first time. Maybe I'd not like the idea of a radio programmer subverting a "respectful" broadcast and turning into into a subtle jab, but I'm not the kind of soul who'd want someone to lose a job over it, either. I'd have tried to disuade Flynn. I'll have to go check out the thread...

[funkybutt]

232. the FR thread had been removed

when i clicked on the link in a DU thread earlier today

[Walt Starr]

37. Watch what you say!

Where have I heard that before?

[datasuspect]

43. innocent question:

i don't understand what you're referring to?

[Walt Starr]

63. Ari fLIEscher

commenting on Bill Maher's remarks on Politically Incorrect after 9/11 stated that in these times we must watch what we say.

[datasuspect]

65. dangit

i shoulda caught that one!

[WLKjr]

39. I agree you should go look at the FR post pre fired

This was criminal....the whole post speaks for itself.

[thebigidea]

11. discussing making ironic music choices is "directly disobeying an order"?

You'd think this was something a little more serious than classical music.

[uberSub]

32. The playlist itself is harmless...

It's that misanthrope made his INTENTIONS plain, what the purpose of the playlist was about, etc. If I was the program director and I had asked misantrhope to put together a respectful show on a recently-deceased president, and then I got ahold of material indicating misanthrope was going to use the opportunity to subtly reverse the intent of the program and make it an anti-president program, I'd be p-ssed off too. Again, volunteering at a public radio station is a privelege.

[thebigidea]

48. having talent work for peanuts at public radio is MORE of a privilege

[uberSub]

60. Chicken and Egg

And yet all these amazingly talented programmers would be sunk without the infrastructure of the station itself, complete with nasty bad rules and nasty bad leadership capable of making nasty bad decisions that cost saintly innocent programmers their God-given program slots.

I am sorry, I am being spitefully facetious. It's just that I've been on both sides of this one, and having worked the management side, I think a lot of programmers overestimate their value, and their "rights".

[thebigidea]

64. I don't think folks want to listen to infrastructure while driving

talent trumps twit.

[uberSub]

94. Have you ever been on the other side?

Talent is voiceless and impotent without a legit platform from which to broadcast.

Ultimately, the platform has to come first.

[thebigidea]

97. Sure have. And I know which side I'm on in the end.

[uberSub]

206. Puny pirate radio?

Right?

=^)

[thebigidea]

209. I didn't even know that existed outside of Christian Slater movies

give yourself a warm round of applause and a contract from Clearchannel!

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[datasuspect]

17. i think you can make a strong point

rhetorically (and i don't agree with you) but stay away from the analogies/parallels. they're not working too well for you.

[WLKjr]

44. yeah i bet she would do more

than just make you sleep on the couch, lol :)

[mistertrickster]

40. I agree with you, but come to the exact opposite conclusion.

How many times do we have to do things at work because the boss tells us to and we think they are utterly counter-productive?

Let's see those hands . . .

The issue is not whether misanthrope WANTED to go against his boss's wishes by impugning Reagan in his comments and list of music, it's whether he DID or not.

Maybe misanthrope was just venting his frustration and engaging in a little wish-fufillment in his post. I believe that's what most of do on-line most of the time, in fact.

The real issue is DID he go against the boss by what he did on the morning in question? No harm, no foul. The boss has to show harm was done--he or she can't simply say that the potential for harm was there.

[markses]

7. TO MELUSETH, re: active third party

Researching my identity, tracking me down, and reporting that subversive conversation to my employer in a deliberate attempt to interfere with my job and livelihood.

If I was in that restaurant, and my boss had the potential to be there, I would probably be more discreet, anyway. But who expects some random freeper to do something like this?

It's worrisome, and makes me rethink my participation here.

My response was solely to trumad's objection. Trumad argued that if he was fired every time he contemplated undermining an operation at work, he would have been fired incessantly. This may be true. However, I set out to show trumad that an analagous discovery of open and public discussion about undermining an operation, including solicitation of suggestions by those outside the organization, would lead to negative consequences for an employee in most cases. A third party is not essential for this point. The analogy is sufficient. Besides, since the third party did forward a transcript of the thread to the manager, it is just as if the manager were sitting in a booth directly behind the employee: the effect is the same. The sub-thread with trumad had a different point than our own discussion about cyberstalking, so it can proceed differently.

[camero]

9. So we are in Nazi Germany now

Thanks for pointing that out to me.

[WLKjr]

12. This whole thing scares me

I feel okay for now, my current employer knows my leanings and respects them becuase from time to time on break we get into discussions on them during breaks if brought up.

but as someone said earlier you can pose as someone then go and email an employer and say it was that other person and bam, another jobless person who was 'freeped' as they so proudly pronounce. sick fuckers

[camero]

18. It is scary

A pandora's box could have very well been opened by this. The discussions in question happened on off-time. Even scarier. Misanthrope should take every avenue available to him to see that his rights to free speech are defended.

[DoNotRefill]

79. dude, misanthrope ADMITTED to his boss....

that he'd been posting on DU.

This isn't a case of somebody posing as somebody else. Misanthrope posted what he posted. It got reported. His employer asked him about it, and he admitted it. The employer fired him.

[WLKjr]

111. Why is it okay to get fired for what you do in off time?

He choose to post here, when confronted he answered a question, and was fired for it. WHY? this does not make since to me!

[DoNotRefill]

125. because what he was doing...

was soliciting opinions on how to do something he knew he wasn't supposed to do at WORK. If he was talking about making a protest sign to carry at a protest that took place off of his employer's site, and that had no connection with his employer, that'd be a FAR different issue. That's not what happened. He solicited opinions for formulating an on-air protest, discussing the policies of his employers, on a website that is viewable to anybody with an internet connection.

[WLKjr]

136. So its wrong to think and fantasize

So if I started posting here that I hate working where I do becuase the pay sucks and I hate rude people and I am going to call work tommorow and yell at my boss many obscenities, yet go to work the next day, on time, get my work orders, and do them to spec in record time and then some.....just becuase I 'said' I would do that, it was just me venting, I would never do something like that becuase I respect people too much(and dont get much back). But becuase I posted it here its grounds for me to get fired, even though I have a good work record(assuming misanthrope had one)?

[Walt Starr]

141. Watch out, or they'll Lane Flynn* ya!

* Verbiage "Lane Flynn" now replaces the word "Fuck"

[DoNotRefill]

142. Do you understand the difference....

between thinking about something and PLANNING for something?

If you posted that you hate your foodservice job "because the pay sucks and you hate rude people, so tomorrow you're going to poison all the food, and can somebody tell you where to buy suitable poison?" the company you work for is totally justified in firing you on the spot.

[WLKjr]

159. Im going by the original post from misanthrope

from that post they way I read it, he was tossing around in his mind what he would like to play, not that he was going to play. Besides, take the "Harming Someone" out of the argument. Words to me are minute compared to plaining to harm someone. I believe he even stated that he had a playlist ready to go that was appropriate and the one on here was just a, say pipe dream...... That's my take on it.

[DoNotRefill]

165. I've read all of his posts...

and he made it clear that it wasn't a pipe-dream, but rather that he had carefgully thought out what songs to play. He made it clear why they were anti-Reagan.

In misanthrope's case, it wouldn't have harmed a PERSON, but it CERTAINLY would have harmed the station if anybody picked up on it and went after them for being anti-Reagan.

Hell, look at the responses from DUers towards the NPR people and the station folks. Exposing them to this kind of stuff ALONE is worthy of termination. They're not in this to be controversial, and misanthrope has made them controversial.

[WLKjr]

170. NPR has been becomming controversial

for a while now. They have made some pretty shady decisions that I have read about in the past couple of months. So if a person, say myself is anti-republican, it's okay to get fired over my beliefs becuase I thought up a playlists I would like to play but wasn't going to. There I go with the thought police thing again. Have you ever read the book "1984", I'm halfway through it and stuff like this scares the shit outta me because it is eriely familar to what is going on today.

[DoNotRefill]

223. I know of a guy who got fired....

because he complained that he should be getting overtime, but wasn't. This far predates Bush's taking office, which means it's a long-term problem, not just a "last couple of months" thing.

[uberSub]

205. Excellent, excellent

Nice to see somebody can see the broad view in this. Great post, DoNotRefill!

[stevedeshazer]

224. Are you nuts?

He's been fired for his thoughts.

Broad view? What if your employer disagreed with you right now? Would you choose corporate personhood (that's the issue) over what a fellow human might react to outside the realm of his job?

Sorry, you're not even close here.

[Cheswick2.0]

231. don't worry it will all be clear on election day

when we get subjected to the great unmasking.

[mistertrickster]

173. Poisoning people is a crime, planning a crime is called conspiracy.

Going against one's boss's wishes isn't a crime (yet). So "plotting" to do it is not criminal or actionable. You'd have to see if the employee actually followed up on it.

It's like when this Flynn kid posted and said, "I might rat this employee out." That's not a crime, so he can say whatever he wants. He's not exposed at all for that.

When he did it and got the employee fired however, now he's possibly open to a lawsuit, as is the boss, because he HARMED somebody.

[WLKjr]

179. Damn Straight

It was pre-emptive before he even got back to work. A freeper conspired to do this and acted on it, thus screwing up a persons livelihood. Here is how it's starting to sound to me

If I hate you and wish bad things on you and think of ways I could get you away from me, you can throw me in jail.

This is like something I saw in a movie once......oh yeah it was minority report! lol that is what this seems like. Just how those people got arrested. They "Thought about crime" but before they even had a chance to carry it out, they were frozen and thrown in prison forever. The sad thing is, they had a choice on wether or not to carry it out. In this case, misanthrope didn't even get to the choice to carry it out.

[DoNotRefill]

183. Mrtrickster....

You're wrong. He brought to the attention of the station posts Misanthrope had made. He didn't get him fired, misanthrope got HIMSELF fired. All the Freeper did was bring it to the attention of the station.

Misanthrope is an a "right to work" state. He can be fired for ANYTHING not explicitly prohibited by law, or for nothing at all. He's SOL.

Flynn has ZERO legal liability. NONE.

[mistertrickster]

152. This is exactly it, WLK! If he did his job, his postings have no

relevance. And it clearly comes down to a free-speech issue.

Now if he played Spike Jones "In Der Fuerher's Face" to honor Reagan, the boss would (perhaps) have a case.

But simply THINKING OUT LOUD about the injustice of a work situation and what you'd LIKE TO DO (but won't) should not be something that gets one fired.

This really is getting into thought police. We don't like what you may be thinking, so you're outta here.

Scary.

[DoNotRefill]

172. Thought can be criminal.

Take for example saying "Hey, lets rob a bank." That's not criminal in and of itself. But once you start planning it, mapping getaway routes, dividing up responsibilities, gathering required equipment, et cetera, it DOES become a crime.

If misanthrope had said "Hey, I'd love to do this..." that'd be one thing, but he didn't. He used (VERY) concrete terms that left no doubt that he was serious.

[Occulus]

180. It stops being a crime

when you, say, import that information into a game's level editor, or make a computer animation of the crime in question. Then all your materials pertaining to the crime in question become free speech, unless the crime is thereafter actually carried out.

Hasn't been tested yet, but it likely will be eventually. A digression, it is true; this is, however, a free speech issue.

[DoNotRefill]

192. Unfortunately....

he didn't disavow or withdraw before he got fired. Of course, it's too late now.

[mistertrickster]

182. I disagree . . . saying "let's rob a bank" is criminal, no matter how

much planning goes into it, because robbing a bank is a crime.

What this employee did had no element of criminal intent or even actionable intent. It did not violate the terms of the employee's contract, unless the contract stipulates that "employees must agree with everything their boss tells them and never utter any disagreement."

If the employee played songs that he thought were poking fun at Reagan's legacy and had outlined how he was going to do this ahead of time, then the boss MIGHT have a case.

If he didn't follow through, then he's entirely blameless of anything except wishful thinking.

[DoNotRefill]

188. right to work, mrtrickster....right to work....

trust me on this.....I've been fighting a PBS station for a while on a FOIA issue, and watching them deal with an employee through the state agency that regulates unemployment payments.

I've got a trial coming up in 7 days on this.

While I feel for misanthrope, he's fucked.

[mistertrickster]

196. Well, okay, but now you've changed the ground of the argument.

Now it's "they can fire him for any reason or no reason."

If that's the case, then they can fire him for having a Howard Dean sticker on his car and you're right, there's nothing the employee can do about it.

But I wouldn't call having a Howard Dean sticker on my car "firing myself." I'd call it, having a vindictive prick for a boss. Misanthrop can't be blamed for that.

[DoNotRefill]

197. Mistertrickster....

I'm looking at this from a variety of different angles. Since it's a right to work state, they need no reason to fire him. In order to collect unemployment benefits, his termination can't be "for cause". His posts here undoubtedly constitute cause.

If he hadn't made the posts and included so much information that he and his station could be identified, he wouldn't have been fired. It's as simple as that. Odds are pretty good that if he'd had denied posting on DU, he wouldn't have been fired. He didn't. He decided to post the posts. He decided to give the information he gave. And he decided to confirm to his boss that he'd been posting on DU. He fired himself as surely as if he struck the match and put it to the fuze.

[mistertrickster]

202. I agree, he should start sending around his resume. And he more

than anyone is aware that he gave away too much information, so that his anonymity was comprimised. I'll give you that. He no doubt sees that as a mistake.

But all of us are laboring under the same illusion of anonymity. I mean couldn't a determined stalker search through old posts and piece together a pretty good profile on anybody with over a few thousand posts?

Then couldn't that same person find anything negative we've said about our work and e-mail it to our boss/company and if we're in a right to work state, we could be terminated "just because."

Obviously, the idea is that if you post anonymously, you do so that your opinions WON'T have repercussions in the real world.

It's unfortunate that the Freeper in question broke the un-written rule that what's on the internet, stays on the internet.

But I hear what you're saying, and do for the most part, agree. The law doesn't seem to offer our friend much protection in this situation, which is why we need to put Democrats in office that protect worker's rights.

[Occulus]

240. EVERYONE is missing the point here.

It doesn't matter that he did or did not post here; what matters is whether or not he conirmed his DU identity to his employer, in any way, prior to his termination.
The fact that the thread exists is irrelevant, as is what was said there. If he did not confirm his DU identity to his employer, IMO he has cause to sue.

[rumguy]

158. Who's to say misanthrope was serious?

To paraphrase the pigboy he could have just been "blowing off steam" - right?

[DoNotRefill]

167. it sounds to me like he had a concrete plan....

and that he formulated the plan with the help of DUers, to the point that it was no longer blowing off steam, and had moved too far for it to simply be "idle thought" any longer.

[rumguy]

174. Bottom line: You do not know that

It's called imagination, some people have more detailed imaginations than others...

Some will think and ponder aloud on very specific things they never intend to actually do...

It's a coping mechanism, a way to deal with events you have no control over, it truly is tantamount to blowing off steam...

[DoNotRefill]

178. I'd have NO qualms about taking this to court....

with the position I've stated and being virtually assured of a positive outcome for the side I'm arguing.

Oh, and BTW, I'm CURRENTLY involved with litigation against another NPR affiliate on FOIA grounds.

In other words, I'm "walking the walk, not just talking the talk."

[rumguy]

181. I'm not so sure on that

I have an employment law book here. I'm going to do a little research.

And I never accused you not walking the walk, or talking the talk.

[DoNotRefill]

190. make sure you place it properly...

in a "right to work" state, with an "at will" employee.

[Baltimoreboy]

212. If you want to blow off steam about your job

I suggest you don't give enough information so it is obvious who you are criticizing. Critizing the boss in a public way is grounds for firing.

[rumguy]

215. Was he critical of the boss?

I just saw him talking about messing with the playlist...something I'm sure all DJs think about A LOT...

[Baltimoreboy]

219. Here is just one sample

I think it creates a pattern. Saying your boss is very "gullible" is not a good way to stay employed.

Here are synonyms for gullible:

believing, bite, born yesterday, credulous, easy, easy mark, eat up, fall for, fleeceable, foolish, go for, green, innocent, kid oneself, lap up, mark, naive, patsy, silly, simple, sucker, susceptible, swallow, swallow whole, taken in, trustful, tumble for, unskeptical, unsophisticated, unsuspecting, wide-eyed, yoyo

Here is one of the posts:

misanthrope (242 posts) Wed Jun-09-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #7

17. It comes from...


...our Program Director, who, quite frankly, is a decent person but is just very gullible.

For instance, she popped her head into the room a while ago and was saying it just hit her that "poor Nancy Reagan has dedicated the last ten years of her life to taking care of this man, staying by his side, and now that poor woman's probably going to just feel lost without anything to do."

When she left, the other employee and I looked at each other with matching flabbergasted expressions. We started discussing the Reagans' availability of resources, and the difference between the way they are able to absorb the ordeal as opposed to their prey, er, constituents. You could tell this woman just didn't even consider that.

[rumguy]

221. give me a fuckin' break

a good person but gullible - you are truly clutching at straws...what is up with you anyway? what dog do you have in this race?

:argh:

[Baltimoreboy]

234. No dogs, nor cats

Just feel that you shouldn't bitch about work on a public forum and then complain if it comes back to haunt you.

[djg21]

195. Reality Check

Misanthrope was, in a public forum (DU), soliciting advice on how to subvert his employer's express instructions regarding a Reagan Tribute in a manner which could have far-ranging implications for that employer. If I were his boss, I too would have fired him, irrespective of my personal feelings for Reagan.

Moreover, when participating in a public forum, neither Misanthrope nor any other person can have any expectation of privacy. And, the Freeper certainly had a First Amendment right to convey TRUTHFUL information to Misanthrope's employer.

Chalk this one up as a lesson learned. There are just some things that should not be posted on a message board like DU. And, it's no secret that there are assholes everywhere, or that FreeRepublic is full of them.

[mistertrickster]

198. The key words are COULD HAVE HAD . . . if he followed up on it,

possible harm could have resulted.

If he didn't follow up on it, he was doing what about 3 million other people around the world do every day when they imagine what it would be like to have an affair or pass themselves off as good looking, rich and powerful or even play the role of their own opposite gender.

I think the lesson learned is that people do not always represent themselves entirely honestly on-line, and that people (bosses) should not interpret postings to a website as something that reflects a true intent.

[uberSub]

207. CLAP CLAP CLAP!

I could not have said it better myself! Kudos to djg21

[Occulus]

176. Did he admit to the screen name used?

If not, then his boss fired him on pure, unadulterated speculation. Based on an unconcerned third party's say-so. The fact that his boss had a transcript of the thread in question is irrelevant if his boss did not receive confirmation that that was indeed his screen name.

[qwertyMike]

199. Deny deny deny

Does his boss know who 'misanthrope' is?

As my Dad used to say - PROVE IT

[DoNotRefill]

200. and in a right to work state....

that's legal.

[Cheswick2.0]

229. dude it is not illegal to post on DU

How can you get fired for that?

[Eloriel]

16. Yes, but ours is a "kinder, gentler" fascism

Now don't you feel all better about it?

[camero]

23. Not really. It's still fascism

Hell, I've had arguments with my bosses and haven't gotten fired over it.

[markses]

20. Huh?

A bit overwrought, no?

[camero]

28. No

According to your analogy, anyone can listen in on our conversations and ruin our lives over it. Kinda the same as parents turning their children in to the Communist Party for speaking ill of them or vise versa.

[markses]

35. Did you even read my analogy?

Point out where I said anybody can listen in and ruin our lives. My analogy clearly stated that a supervisor overhears an employee openly discussing the disruption of a work activity, even after hours. Furthermore, my analogy in no way "justifies" any action on that basis, but rather shows that action would be common given that pattern. It was designed to show trumad that a similar set of circumstances would lead to similar results in most cases, and - to counter your argument that this is something new - I'd further suggest that this has been the case for probably the whole history of modern industry.

[camero]

42. Yes I did

You correlated a third party listening in on a conversation in a restaurant to the situation at hand. Both are fascism. In a free country they would not lead to any action taken as the things are said on OFF-DUTY time.

[markses]

57. No I did not

I explicitly ruled out a third party for the purpose of the analogy, and put the supervisor directly in the restaurant. And again, I did not justify any action, but rather demonstrated this action to be consistent with other employee/employer relations.

As for a "free country," there is no federal law that states an employee cannot be fired for activities outside of work; these arrangements are usually determined in contract between employee and employer. Whether that is "fascism" is another story (though the concept seems overwrought), but it is common for people to be terminated for activities (even speech) outside of work. For all we know, misanthrope was in breach of contract for violating the confidentiality clause of an employment agreement.

[camero]

68. You simply replaced them

since the third party did forward a transcript of the thread to the manager, it is just as if the manager were sitting in a booth directly behind the employee: the effect is the same.

The third party is not the manager. You simply switched them.

Though I do see your point about confidentiality clauses. If he did have that clause in his contract. Only him and his employer would know.

[markses]

86. My analogy appeared in the first thread

Here's how it went:

You work for Samtech Corp., a seller of children's software products. You absolutely despise the head of one of your client companies, a customer. On wednesday, your boss asks you to do a pitch for the customer, who you know to be an asshole. You haven't done the pitch before, but it's a new element of your job. That night at a restaurant, you openly complain about the assignment to some friends using the name of your company, and solicit ways to undermine the transaction. Unfortunately, your boss, unbeknownst to you, is sitting in a booth directly behind you.

Are you going to get in trouble, even though you haven't done anything yet? Will your boss be angry with you? If yes to either of these, is that "thought control"?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1768422#1771049

The point, once again, was to show that most people would be called on the carpet. I did not switch them. I explicitly say that the third party is not essential to demonstrate my point, the point being that most people would be called on the carpet if their bosses learned of something like this. The point was aimed at trumad, who claimed that being called on the carpet for contemplating action was ridiculous. I assert that it is not ridiculous if you do it publically and are found out: it would, rather, be the normal course of events. As for the transcript, the manager holding the transcript is the same as the manager listening to the conversation. That's the point.

[camero]

93. I see your point

However, a third party getting that transcript is much different than the actual manager hearing the conversation. Still scary. Like I said in another post, I've had political and job related arguments with my bosses and never got fired over them.

For them to even tell me who I can speak with on my own time would seem a violation of free speech to me.

[markses]

110. Really?

What about speaking with competitors about proprietary information? Is contractual restriction of such speech unconscionable as a violation of free speech? What about publically bad-mouthing the company to the news media? Free speech?

Employment agreements tend to restrict our speech about the organization in certain contexts. Do most people complain about their jobs? Sure. Do most people divulge secrets about their jobs in more or less public settings (bars, restaurants, amusement parks, porn booths)? Yup. But one is usually at risk when one does so. That's why we look around before we do it. This is not a free speech question. You have no right to this particular job, though you do have some rights in relation to your arrangements with this particular employer.

As for the third party being much different than the manager overhearing: in process, yes, but in substance, no. The question remains one of a relation between the employer (and proxies) and the employee. Has the employee allowed certain information be to be exposed to the employer? Yes, in both cases. Does the employer have the full conversation material to the organization? Yes, in both cases.

[camero]

160. What secrets were implied?

On confidential info if stated in a contract I can see. On other matters the employer does not have an implicit right to violate the US Constitution. Geesh this is a bit much for some isn't it?

[markses]

217. The employer did not violate the US Constitution

I've enjoyed discussing this with you, but that is a ridiculous claim. "Free speech" involves government sanctions, not employer-employee relationships (except in very specific cases of unionization).

[camero]

226. Apperently then my employer could

1. Bug my house

2. Moniter my home computer

3. Eavesdrop on my conversations

Like I said, welcome to fascism. So much for capitalism being freedom.

I've enjoyed this conversation as well. You've pointed out the tyranny of private power too.

[markses]

237. That's your first mistake

Capitalism was never freedom. Even Adam Smith knew that. Capitalism tends toward fascism in principle and necessarily. There is no free capitalism. That is the fundamental struggle of our times, and the fundamental struggle against capitalism. Our "rights" assume functions of power lodged in government. They have little or no mechanisms for dealing with a situation in which power is vested primarliy in private organizations.

That said, the employer in this matter made no active attempt to surveil misanthrope, so there goes points 1, 2 and 3. Misanthrope made a public statement about the internal operations of the station, and solicited publicly ways to undermine those internal operations. That is the fundamental difference.

[camero]

241. According to your premise

All points are legal. Also, I know that capitalism is not freedom. It's why I would call myself a democratic socialist. To bring democracy to the economic realm.

It's pretty deluded to think we have freedom now I agree with you on that.

[markses]

242. No, not at all

According to my claim, none of those points falls under the scope or function of the First Amendment. This is true. Whether they are subsequently prohibited by other ordinances (state law, in all three points) is another question altogether. However, even in those cases, you would have to show a deliberate and active performance of the three activities. Nothing in our current case qualifies. That said, an employer is not prohibited from bugging your house by the First Amendment, or any other amendment or article. An employer is prohibited from bugging your house by other (often local) statutes. So, my claim holds here. there is no Constitutional question involved.

[uberSub]

Oh please!

When anyone uses language like "Nazi Germany" in reference to an essentially trivial situation like misanthrope's, the public discourse takes another step downward into incoherency. I am sure the real victims of Nazi Germany would scoff at the comparison of a public radio programmer losing his air slot, and women and children being gassed to death because of their religion. The two events are so utterly and drastically far apart... I mean, my God!

[camero]

49. I'd say losing one's livelihood is an extreme situation

No, they are the same. Freedom of speech and thought is a pain, eh?

[datasuspect]

52. strange

coming from someone so fond of analogies like yourself.

[Beetwasher]

61. You Need To Wake Up, The Nazi's Didn't

Just immediately start throwing people into concentration camps, they worked up to it...It started w/ the true believers ratting out the "undesireables"...The analogy is apt. I for one am not willing to wait until it gets any worse...

What this person did crossed a very serious line and is in no way trivial...And it's NOT an isolated incident. People critical of the Bush admin. have been getting fired and persecuted ALL OVER THE FUCKING COUNTRY. Ever hear of Clear Channel? The Dixie Chicks? Howard Stern? Guantanamo Bay? You do realize American Citizens have been arrested and held without bail indefinitely without access to lawyers and without being charged with any crimes? Wake the fuck up. It's only beginning.

[uberSub]

73. Perspective, people...

The sky is not falling. And paranoid hyperbole only serves to devalue the argument. misanthrope is not the first programmer to lose his slot, and he will not be the last. Misanthrope can, I am sure, with a little industry, work his way into another slot at another station. Hell, with a little bit of humble apologizing he might even get his slot back at WHIL. That he's seriously going to sue is somewhat laughable to me.

[Beetwasher]

82. Indeed, Perspective Is Needed, By YOU

This is not an isolated case. This is a mindset of a group of people who are now emboldened to do this sort of thing. This did not happen in a vacuum. This happened in a climate where this sort of thing is becoming more and more common and is SANCTIONED by the gov't. "Watch what you say and watch what you do" according to Ari Fleischer. FCC is cracking down on people critical of Bush (Howard Stern) and the Gov't is prosecuting notable Dems (Martha Stewart, Tommy Chong) for crimes for which Repubs (Ken Lay and George Bush) don't get prosecuted for.


Again, wake the fuck up. This is not an isolated incident and American citizens are being held w/out bail, without charges and without access to lawyers.

[ibegurpard]

84. yup...sometimes the sky really IS falling

eom

[uberSub]

99. I'll watch for the Gestapo on my way home, then?

I hope gas puts me to sleep before it kills me.

[Beetwasher]

115. Hahahahah! You're A Laugh Riot!

Keep laughing...

I guess you haven't heard about Guantanamo Bay where we're torturing people...A concentration camp by any other name is still a concentration camp and torture is torture. Funny stuff that!!

Hahahaaha!! Iraqi's being raped and murdered in prison by US soldiers and possibly 90% were just randomly rounded up!! And the President approved of it!!! It's being done in OUR names!! Hahahahahah! Man, my sides hurt from laughing at that one!!

Maybe it's funny to you, but I had relatives who were in fact gassed in the concentration camps in Nazi Germany. You're free to wait until it's too late and laugh at those who are warning you.

I know someone who thinks the way you do and he's the biggest most ignorant jackass I've ever had the misfortune of meeting.

Don't worry though. Somehow I get the feeling that you're lilly white and got nothing to worry about, right? As long as it's not happening to people of your race, religion or political bent, no problemo!!

[uberSub]

204. Wow, you know so much without knowing anything at all!

Yeah, Gitmo is a real death camp, 'aint it. Nazis and Stalinists have got nothing on America when it comes to rounding up poor, innocent folks and sending them to the slaughter, right?

And the opponents of Bush, Republicans, and conservativism in general, wonder why so many can't take them seriously.

I keep bringing up this word: HYPERBOLE.

Used sparingly, it can make a point. Used incessantly and when applied to situations and cases where, clearly, some rational perspective could be employed, it renders you looking like a loon. There are no death camps, there is no countrywide rape of Iraq, and you can hate Bush all you want, but speaking as a member of the armed forces with friends who have been there and seen the reality, the picture you paint is so fantastically distant from the truth, it's barely with criticizing.

You want Gitmo shut down? You want us out of Iraq? Raving about it with ridiculous exagerations and misrepresentations is not the way to go. Again, do you want to vent your spleen, or do you want to be taken seriously?

[Beetwasher]

225. Pathetic and Ignorant

That really just about sums up your last post.

Yes, of course I want Gitmo shutdown. Any sane, humane, reasonable person would object to off limits to everyone except the military detention camps where torture is taking place and deaths have occurred. You do realize that of course don't you, that people HAVE died there? Your ignorance is astounding. You don't want it shut down? How do YOU know what's happening there? I suppose the prisoners are being treated to tea parties? How foolish. I guess the torture memos that are being leaked out mean nothing to you? Yes, that's hyperbole. Pathetic, ignorant fool.

[Eloriel]

230. It's a might bit of hyperbole applied to this situation, BUT --

this issue aside, you're making the common, and deadly, mistake of equating Hitler and Nazi Germany ONLY with the death camps. That came last. There were years -- a decade or more -- during which Hitler&Co. built the political, propaganda and legal infrastructure which enabled them to subjugate all of Germany to their will and get away with the Holocaust for as long as they did.

It is short-sighted, historically weak, and extremely dangerous to ignore the REALITY, which is that the U.S. under George W. Bush is tracking exactly with early 1930s Germany. It's as if they're using that period in German history as their playbook.

Add to that the fact that in the U.S., there is an unbroken line of Nazis/fascists involved in government and Republican politics since the end of WW2 AND 4 generations of Bushes who have been war profiteering Nazi financiers/enablers and anti-democracy election riggers/stealers who have been at the very heart of every major government scandal, and it gives you pause.

If you're not there yet, you need to do some research. You're either not all that aware of Nazi Germany history, or not all that informed about the Bushes. And a kneejerk reaction to any mention of comparisons with Hitler or Nazi Germany because the Holocaust is uppermost in your mind, won't help.

[Endangered Specie]

153. So raise your hand HIGH AND PROUD!

Heil! Heil!

[camero]

191. They'll have to shoot my ass first n/t

[Endangered Specie]

218. "Break out the MP40's!"

;)

[DoNotRefill]

228. Sorry, we no longer use MP-40s.

Now we use MP-5s, which are also german manufactured submachineguns. We still wear "coal scuttle" helmets, and dress all in Black, with nice, highly shined leather boots. The only thing missing is the silver trim for officers and the double "lightening-bolt" collar-runes.

Gotta hand it to the Nazis....they designed such pretty uniforms that we basically adopted them for ourselves, along with lots of their ideology. Although in all fairness, they adopted a lot of their ideology (like eugenics) from us in the first place.

BTW, I've got a real, functional MP-40. (and yes, it's legal) It's a true piece of history. It's covered with "blood rust", from when it started it's journey to come live with me. For those not familiar with the term "blood rust", blood causes metal to rust very fast, and only where the blood is. If you look at my gun, you can see where the Nazi that originally had it bled all over it after getting shot, and the metal rusted and pitted (which is the result of deep rust). The demarcation is quite clear, and it appears that he fell face-first over it, pinning it between the ground and his body, with the left side of the weapon facing his body. His blood flowed in copious quantities over the gun and then caused it to rust, leaving a telltale pattern that's still visible. Yeah, it's ghoulish, but hey, at least I know that the Nazi that had it was a "good" Nazi before it was taken off of his body....

[trumad]

10. Look..I see you working and I agree somewhat...

but as one poster said,,,"when does it stop"? Are we now to retaliate and scan the freeper landscape for the first opportunity to get someone canned?

This guy (Lane) lives in Tennessee, Our guy lives in Alabama... Lanes listening pleasure wasn't going to be interrupted because of Misanthrope. Lane did it because he's a vindictive little shit and then he did laugh about it at the end.... Oh sure he's now feigning how upset he is but at the time he was slapping five with his freep buddies.

There is big danger in this type of activity. Hell, even JimRob shut the thread down because he too knows that this could open a big old can of worms.

This ain't good and if you defend this guys actions then you'll have to defend this type of behavior 10 years down the road when the U.S is full of Arm Band wearing thugs who are spying on everything that moves.

MHOP

[ibegurpard]

13. And that is EXACTLY the point

And why the freepers should be outraged about this as well.

[markses]

19. Since my point to you was relatively restricted

I won't accede to the slippery slope argument. I'm merely claiming that most people would be called on the carpet if public solicitations to disrupt a future work operation were revealed to management. I think that is true on its face.

Now, I have also argued that Mr. Flynn's activities were disgusting. Listen, I grew up in a bad neighborhood in NYC. I grew up doing petty crimes and hanging with gangs. Yeah, I know...thanks for the biography. Point being: I despise a rat in almost all cases...THIS ONE INCLUDED! That said, Mr. Flyn is ethically culpable, but not legally culpable, even as a tort. Misanthrope aired his laundry in public, and while only a filthy rat bastard would run back to daddy with news of the stains, it remains an ethical failing and not a legal one. That's my argument.

As for "where will it stop," that's immaterial. It was a dirty operation yesterday, last week, last year and ten years ago, and it will be a dirty operation tomorrow, next week, next year, and ten years from now. Mr. Flynn's a scumbag. That's clear enough.

[WLKjr]

30. Every Freeper that Replied to that and put in thoughts

should be kicked off if Jim has any morals at all.

[Ms. Clio]

45. Well, then can we proceed with the discussion of cyberstalking?

I agree that Misanthrope made it especially easy to find out who he was, but still the stalker had to exert himself to put all the pieces together? His victim was posting anonymously, on his own time, with no expectation that his boss would ever hear those words or read that transcript? Perhaps he should not have had that expectation, I don't know. But what about the active third party?

Edited to add: I'm not sure I mean in a legal sense--but this is the sort of thing that has occurred in dozens of Usenet flame wars over the years, and it has always been considered just about the most unforgiveable Net offense.

[markses]

77. I'd be happy to

I still maintain that it wasn't stalking, even if Mr. Flynn made "personal" comments on an FR thread. First, Mr. Flynn took no personal action against misanthrope, nor did he attempt to contact him directly. The only action taken can be seen to be "in the public interest" broadly speaking, that is, it is directed at misanthrope's office and role rather than at his person, and it concerns the office and role rather than the person. Moreover, his involvement was not "continuing," so it misses that element as well.

Third party activity - especially with respect to a public figure and his or her public role - does not stalking make. Once again, misanthrope ceded an expectation of privacy by publishing sufficient identifying information on this board. Since he was discussing a matter in the public interest (public broadcasting) and since the only real action taken by Mr. Flynn was addressed to that public role, there is no stalking here. One cannot stalk an office.

[Ms. Clio]

123. Well, then, hasn't Mr. Flynn made himself a public figure now, too?

And wouldn't it be up to a jury to determine if it was "personal," or not? I mean, if it ever went to court, which of course is unlikely.

Isn't that their job, to determine intent?

[markses]

137. Nothing so far has risen to

a violation of Mr. Flynn's rights. We should be very careful to keep it that way.

As for whether a jury would decide if it was "personal," I expect a very lenient or sloppy judge might go that far, but you still have to show elements in advance, and I don't think most jurists would see a possible showing of intent here.

[Ms. Clio]

154. I agree with you that we should be very careful about that

Interesting discussion, thanks.

[msmcghee]

15. Bush* had discussions with and recieved memos . .

. . from his friends about how to decieve his employer (us) about the reasons we should go to war in Iraq. He got caught and is about to lose his job, in November if not sooner.

How is that any different from Misanthrope's situation?

Just because he's a liberal doesn't mean he deserves to keep his job after plotting to deceive his employer.

[trumad]

21. You're still missing the point!

never mind!

[Norquist Nemesis]

22. That's just whacky.

misanthrope was not an elected official in charge of a country. :eyes:

[msmcghee]

31. Misanthrope and Bush* were both employees .

Misanthrope was hired (elected) by station management and put in charge of a time segment on air.

They were both paid for their work and both agreed, ahead of time, to follow their employers' requests. Why shouldn't they be subject to the same ethical rules?

[mistertrickster]

66. See my response to post # 40--he didn't "plot" anything

He put a few musings about his job shituation on a message board under an alias, and his boss trumped it up into sinking the Lusitana.

Did he fail to do his job as it is contractually described on the morning in question?

Anything else is pure speculation.

Frankly, I'm surprised misanthrope admitted that he actually posted anything. It would be so easy to be set up and almost impossible to prove otherwise.

"democraticunderground?!" Is that one of those right-wing hate sites I've been hearing about? Hell, I don't even have a computer, Mr. Boss Man . . . I've been thinking about buying a cordless phone, but me and technology never really got along . . .

[msmcghee]

114. You know, you might be able to get a job in . .

. . *Bush's Whitehouse. I hear there are going to be some staff openings pretty soon.

[mistertrickster]

134. I already have a job and part of it is representing employees who

get sacked for shit like this. And when we (the union) get through with their bosses who think they can do anything they damn well please, they aren't so arrogant anymore.

[Norquist Nemesis]

67. According to your comparison Bush should already be gone

then. You're taking it to a bizarre absolute and it's ridiculous.

[msmcghee]

102. What is bizarre . .

. . is the idea that an employee, someone who I am paying to help my business succeed, is instead plotting with his friends, ways how to pretend to do what I ask, while doing the opposite.

If I had the slightest whiff that an employee felt that way about his job, I would fire him in an instant. Whether he actually carried it out is beside the point.

Having interviewed many employees, I am always struck by the efforts they go to during the interview to convince you how much the success of your business means to them and how they really hope to help you make it a success through their hard work and intelligence.

And how often many employees have the attitude of Misanthrope after a while. Their job becomes a matter of much money they can get paid while doing what they want to do rather than what you want them to do.

OTOH - I have had many great employees who really understood what was going on - the relationship between the employer and employee - something that can be very rewarding for both.

Some people never figure it out.

[thebigidea]

25. "How is that any different from Misanthrope's situation?"

Oh, its completely the same.

Bush lying about WMD and leading a nation to war based on a lie, slaughtering thousands in the process, torturing innocents, bringing shame to our country, and still being allowed to get away with it is EXACTLY like this radio thing.

EXACTLY.

[msmcghee]

47. Discussion of ethics requires . .

. . that one sees how concepts like honesty must apply across the board, not selectively. There is no situational line beyond which deceit becomes OK. Either you deceive and accept the consequences or you accept them for being honest up front. The choice is up to you - not your employer.

Are you saying that because no-one was killed it is OK to deceive your employer?

[thebigidea]

58. No, I'm saying that your comparison is straight outta Bizzaro World

Bush was not immedeately fired based on an anonymous tip.

Snarky music choices is not "deceit" - its tongue-in-freakin'-cheek.

[msmcghee]

70. Ethics requires that we stay . .

. . on the ethical principles involved. Not the time clock or the number of people who were involved or whose computer was used. Those are just technicalities that might be important in a trial but not on a discussion board where we are talking about ethics.

Snarky music choices that sabotage his employer's request is deceit - it's that simple.

[thebigidea]

100. you sound like that character in Miller's Crossing. Its about ethics.

"Snarky music choices that sabotage his employer's request is deceit - it's that simple."

I trust you will join me in my crusade to have him burnt at the stake, barbecued on a massive bonfire of Bon Jovi records for his crimes against humanity.

[WLKjr]

33. Bush was on the JOB,

misanthrope was NOT ON THE JOB, This is not a liberal/conservative argument anymore, it is a free speech issue dammit!

[msmcghee]

59. Are you saying that . .

. . if I plan with my friends to e-mail my company's customer list to their competition, it's OK if I do the planning off the clock?

And, this has nothing to do with free speech. I was at Berkeley in the sixties and I know what free speech is about.

[WLKjr]

69. Well let me ask you this then

How did you get the email list for customers, they keep those on databases on computers anymore. That's cybercrime. So that means you stole information and compiled a plan to send it to a competetor , that is a totally different story and you would and should be fired, then sued the crap out of.

[msmcghee]

80. Don't sidetrack the discussion.

How he got the list is not relevant. He may have stolen it - in fact he probably did if he signed any kind of employment contract.

But aside from that, he deceptively plotted to damage his employer's business (whether or not it was theft) after accepting employment and agreeing to follow his employer's requests within the scope of his job.

That is unethical. That was my point.

[WLKjr]

91. It is Un-ethical

That was what I was trying for. But he still was following through with the order and had another playlist that wasnt the one he "thought about" from what I have read. That is why I say this cyberspying and getting fired over it is bullshit in a way, I mean the damn freeper conspired with freerepublic.com users to commit a crime.

sorry if I side tracked.

whew buddy this is some good discussion!

[Baltimoreboy]

124. What crime?

This is a public message board. If you are foolhardy enough to complain about your job and give enough information for anyone to figure out where you work, YOU deserve the blame.

[WLKjr]

143. Read my post #136 and tell me what you think afterwards

n/t

[Baltimoreboy]

210. I would still say nothing illegal happened

However, I do think the DUer in question was publicly critical of his workplace in a clearly and overt fashion.

[msmcghee]

126. It is a good one.

And unfortunately I have to get some work done today.

But thanks for the give and take.

I actually have sympathy with most of the viewpoints expressed here - but I'd still call his actions deceptive and deserving of termination.

It would be a hard call for me as the thing I hate most about being in business is ever having to fire an employee. I usually anguish about it for way too long and let the company suffer rather than judge too harshly.

That's one reason I'm not wealthy - and not Republican.

[WLKjr]

146. N/P

thanks for the discussion msmcghee! have fun at work :hi:

[LuminousX]

54. One is criminal, the other is not.

Discussing pranks I may pull at work is not equivalent to going to war.

Bush also ACTIVELY deceived us. Misanthrope didn't. Misanthrope DIDN'T DO ANYTHING AT WORK.

I talk shit all the time when I'm out with people, talking about taking down the systems, etc. as revenge. Would I? No. But I say it. Should I be fired? At the very most I deserve a slight reprimand and maybe a security audit.

[msmcghee]

87. Whether you deserve a slight reprimand . .

. . or a security audit (or worse) is up to the person signing your check - when you are having discusssions about how to damage your employer's business.

In the case of the government, we are the employers.

[mwar]

26. It's identity theft

The freep should be dealt with accordingly, this is a criminal act. The whole argument that misanthrope got what he deserved really pisses me off. Who deserves to get their house vandalized because the owner momentarily forgot to lock the front door?

[rinsd]

34. How is it identity theft?

I mean Misanthrope did make the posts, didn't he?

I think its shitty what happened but I don't understand how its identity theft.

[mwar]

55. To actively seek out someone's identity

for malicious purposes or simple violation of privacy in my book is identity theft.

[rinsd]

89. Really?

Because according to your book, we're gonna have a buncha DUers in the pokey. Because DUers have published the guy's real name, his frat, where he went to school, pictures of him etc.

Misanthrope should worry about going after his employers and Duers should cool their heels before they get DU sued.

[markses]

92. Ding Ding Ding

We have a winner.

Good post.

[rinsd]

103. I feel crappy about what happened to Misanthrope...

No one should lose their job over hypothetical BS on a forum even if semi-public(considering we use screen names). I understand some of the legal ramifications and I wish Misanthrope the best on any legal action/finding new employment.

However, I am truly frightened that DUers may have put DU in legal liability with the posting of personal info and researching of this idiot freeper. And that would be sad irony indeed.

[Ms. Clio]

109. How is that possible?

If there is no legal liability for him for doing that, why should there be any for us doing the same thing?

He has made himself a public figure on this one--he publicly boasted about what he actually did, and under his own name, with his real e-mail address, versus Misanthrope anonymously fantasizing about what he would like to do.

[rinsd]

121. I don't know....

That's why I'm asking the house lawyers.

The freeper also posted under a screen name. I don't know if just his e-mail was in his profile that was pulled or his real ame as well.

[WLKjr]

101. You have a good there

but his information was up for public display, even his name on some of the Libertarians site and on Vanderbuilts site, it's not like it was hard to find his email and search on google. Anyone can do that. I have found places I have been before with a simple google search, it's not hard. It's when you start getting SSN and banking records and such when you better start watching it.

[rinsd]

107. I know , it's public domain.....

But that fact is people have created a pseudo-dossier here on DU. People have stated they want pay back, just desserts etc. If this guy gets a bunch of nasty threating e-mails, it could be bad news.

But I am not familiar with how responsible forum owners are responsible for user comments. Will one of the many lawyers in the house help assuage my fears of DU liability for its users posting?

[markses]

90. Fortunately, your book is not the law

Or half the people that have sought out Mr. Flynn's identity would also be in violation. Mr. Flynn addressed misanthrope's office or role as a public functionary, not his person.

[rinsd]

150. Assistance, dear magistrate

Markses,
You seem to know alot about this liability stuff, is DU(more specifically Skinner, Elad etc) liable for anything posted here dealing with the freeper's personal info or is DU in the clear?

I remember recently that a blog or forum was sued for something in their comments section but I am unsure how it played out.

[mwar]

163. Has markses left the building? (n/t)

[markses]

41. I'd love to hear this

Please advise of the law that Mr. Flynn broke by writing a letter to the NPR affiliate? I'm dying to hear all about it.

[private_ryan]

50. this is a criminal act

you are not serious, are you?

[mwar]

85. Very serious

Where do you draw the line on privacy? If it's assumed that we have no real privacy on message boards or on the Internet in general, why bother with screen names? I don't presume to be an attorney or know all that much about the law so you can dismiss my point out of hand if you like. But there are laws aganst stalking and identity theft,it might be more realistic to persue some action along these lines rather than a free spech argument.

[markses]

95. It is not stalking

According to any stalking law I know of (and I don't pretend to be familiar with the exact stalking laws in all states).

[mwar]

106. Are you an attorney?

Just curious? If you are do you have any suggestions for a practical action for misanthrope? What about slander? Is that a criminal offense?

[markses]

116. misanthrope has no cause for action

It is as simple as that, although I have explained why in this and other threads.

[private_ryan]

130. nothing you post on the WWW is private

no one stole his identity, he gave it away.

[mwar]

157. Do you destroy papers before you throw out your garbage?

I'm thinking I ought to start.
:-)

[private_ryan]

243. I don't see the analogy at all

but if I start mouthing off about something I did or want to do at my job, you can tell my boss and cops. It's legal.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

98. Actually it is

and the FBI should be notified.

[mwar]

117. I have a gut feeling there's something illegal here...

What is it?

[markses]

122. Judges LOVE gut feelings

Well, not really.

[Occulus]

184. it's the infringement

upon political speech. He ha a 1A suit against both his employer and RimJob.

[markses]

220. That is not the function or scope of

the First Amendment. I'd love to see the precedent that says otherwise. I am not required to hang out with the Ku Klux Klan, and I am fully within my rights to report a teacher's Klan activities to a school principle if i feel that they may enter the classroom, and especially if I have a published record of that teacher planning to distribute Klan material in a classroom. There is no infringement on the right of free speech if that teacher is reprimanded, since the violation has to do with the teacher's office or function, and not his or her capacity to speak generally. The same applies here. Neither the report nor the firing infringe on misanthrope's right to free speech. They both concern misanthrope's office as an announcer and programmer. Similarly, I can be fired for playing hip hop at a soft rock station, even though that hip hop could be considered expression broadly speaking. The first amendment doesn't protect speech from private consequences, but from government sanction.

[camero]

233. IIRC, NPR is taxpayer funded

Thus a government entity. So, the gist of the matter is that misanthrope has been fired by an arm of the government for having a contrary political viewpoint.

NPR is probably filled with Bush cronies now.

[markses]

236. One could just as easily argue

That he was fired for publicly discussing station policies and not only considering undermining, but also soliciting public suggestions designed to undermine, those policies. There is no obvious or necessary free speech issue here. In fact, barring explicit information that the political content of his speech, rather than its relation to the internal operations of the organization, caused the dismissal, there is no proof that he was terminated for specific political speech. None at all. Although I wouldn't advise that he make it public, I'd like to see the employment agreement.

[DoNotRefill]

238. It's not entirely Federally funded...

and a NPR affiliate is NOT NPR.

Trust me, I've been going through this for a while.

[markses]

118. Please explain

On what basis do you make that claim?

[mwar]

148. You seem to be the authority here...

Give it a shot. If you were working as an attorney representing misanthrope would you tell him to go elsewhere or would you take a chance that there's enough personal damage here to convince a judge and / or jury to give some sort of settlement.

[markses]

214. I would ask to see copies of his employment agreement

He has no cause against Mr. Flynn, but there may be an off-chance that he has cause against his employer.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

36. We know he's a lurker - chances are he's reading this now - Hi Lawrence!

I have a feeling you should be very nervous right now. You seem to have gotten some people here really pissed off. Just sayin'. Nice goin though, buddy! Your conservative values have been displayed for all to see!

[WLKjr]

62. I would be if I were him!

hell looks like someone already got his b-day and almost where he is from. probably a matter of time befor they have your SSN too Lawrence.
You should find that gentleman a job NOW and make amends, becuase its the RIGHT thing to do......

[tandot]

72. I agree, WLKjr,

Lane (or Lawrence) it is time to be a man and correct what you've done. Getting somebody fired because they have political thoughts different to yours is disgusting. Do the right thing...

[mistertrickster]

104. Hey, thanks for this . . . while I would never try to get FlynnFlam fired,

I certainly won't hesitate to write to his PARENTS and tell them what a little rat bastard they raised.

Oops, just got deleted. That's okay, I can google on my own.

[jdsmith]

128. What got deleted??

[mistertrickster]

129. The name of the stoolie rat's parents.

No problem, lah.

[jdsmith]

132. Lance and Sue?

And their hometown?

[mistertrickster]

29. This is really horrible. To get somebody fired in the Bush economy

is not so easy to bounce back from. It's not like the 60's where you could just hitch-hike from one good manufacturing job to another.

In addition to all the concerns noted so far, I have another one: stealing someone's log-in name (or fabricating a new one), then posting a bunch of fictious crap that will get them in trouble.

For instance, the FReep (a so-called libertarian--wow, talk about a contradiction--"I want everybody to be able to do what they want without interference unless they do something I don't like, then I sic authority on them) is named Lane Flynn. He went to Vanderbilt University and quite a lot of on-line information has already been gleaned on the rat bastard.

Now let's just say--AND I'M NOT ENCOURAGING ANYBODY TO DO THIS--(I'm not even pretending to not encourage anybody so that will actually do this--DO NOT DO THIS)--let's just say that somebody could take all the known information about the aforesaid Mr. Flynn and create a believable web persona that would then post encouraging words to The World Communist Workers of the World or even an Al Qaeda website.

Those fake posts could be turned over to authorities or Mr. Flynn's boss as evidence of treason and hatred for his country. Mr. Flynn would rightly complain that he isn't really an Islamic Communist terrorist, but who's going to believe an Islamic Communist terrorist?

Anyone with a web history could be a victim of the same thing that happened to misanthrope.

[Beware the Beast Man]

46. That would be a crying shame-

getting a Freeptard set up on treason charges (sarcasm off).

[WLKjr]

56. Why not?

They are the enemy within......at least they act like it.

[Beware the Beast Man]

71. You missed the "sarcasm off" part.

I'm "in agreeance" as Fred Durst would say.

[WLKjr]

83. That last one was my own tid bit of sarcasm

n/t

[Hammie]

235. Misanthrope got himself fired

He was discussing, in detail, how he was planning to compromise the quality of his employer's product to satisfy his own personal objectives.

From what I read, there was no indication whatsoever that he was writing in the hypothetical. Indeed, he acknowleged that if his boss got wind of it, he would be fired.

His boss did get wind of it, thanks to misanthropes own actions, and he was consequently fired.

If one of my employees was plotting to subvert the goals of my department and I found out about it, I would fire him too. Not only that, I would be indebted to the individual who brought it to my attention.

[seabeyond]

38. one more time on this thread. i would NOT fire employee

for this. i listened to mis whoever from beginning. as an employer i would have been empathitic to his situation and ideal, not a hard one, repug or dem..........i would have hoped this employee could talk to me, and i would have worked something out to not afront said valued employee. i would NOT, NOT have fired the person. and the solution mis whatever came up with was not deriliction of responsibility nor mean spirited nor defying order, just a cleverness in presenting without afront to his belief, that would not have been necessary if i ran the company. my father, big corporation manager, would not have fired employee, valued, he would have worked with employee

a shame on the employer in my book

[NashVegas]

53. If Someone Wants to Find Out Who the Freeper Is ...

All one would have to do is go, in person, to the radio station and request to see the public folder.

Radio stations have to, by law, retain every piece of correspondence with the public and keep it in the public file. Including emails.

[LTR]

75. Very good point!

This is true!

[rastignac5]

76. No they don't. n/t

[uberSub]

78. Thankyou very much!

Someone else who knows what they are talking about!

(clap clap clap clap)

[WLKjr]

88. you will find them eventually

we are a VERY diverse group in gender/orientation/race/religion/employment fields

A lot of us know a little bit of everything from law to computer science.

That is why I am offering my input on the techie side of this debate and why it is so wrong what happened.

[LTR]

74. ***If you're just joining in...

...or you want to keep up with the multi-board play-by-play:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1151209/posts

[janx]

127. I cannot believe what I'm reading here.

A 21-year-old college student gets a guy fired from an NPR station for musings on a message board--and ultimately, this is all over POLITICS! Nothing but mud-slinging politics!

What the hell was the kid thinking? And who the heck is raising our children these days? Vanderbilt carries a hefty price tag. Are those people who raised this kid, who are paying his tuition, really that stupid as to raise him this way?

Education is about OPENING the mind, not closing it.

This is really unbelievable!

[qwertyMike]

201. Thread removed

by Moderator

heehehhehehhehehheheee

[TN al]

81. Does anyone know Flynn's major?...

...I work just outside of Nashville, co-incidentally I am also a Vandy grad, and I was just thinking that the odds are slim that he may apply where I work but it doesn't hurt to be prepared. Maybe I could help to deny him a job.

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TN al]

113. Wilson County...

...east of Nashville, just hired a county engineer. Not Flynn. Perhaps he should stay away from the counties to the east. Just for his own mental well-being.

[molly]

120. You are probably too young to remember Connie Francis

and "Who's Sorry Now".

[LTR]

105. Ooops! Looks like the FR thread just got yanked

CYA = Cover your ass

I saved it on my hard drive.

[Endangered Specie]

133. Too bad you cant post it again.

[LTR]

139. Oh yes I can!

FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum"
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To Tattle or Not to Tattle
Self | 6-10-04 | FreedomFlynnie


Posted on 06/10/2004 11:05:35 AM PDT by FreedomFlynnie


I ran across a little ethical dilemma in my daily web surfing. In the course of my "know your enemy" reading of liberal web sites, I came across a thread on a certain hard-left message board. The poster (whom I will call X so as not to identify him/her yet) works at a radio station and was asked by his/her supervisor to plan some respectful mourning programming for tomorrow (Friday) in observance of Reagan's memorial. Instead, X asked the other readers of the site to brainstorm ways he could ignore/violate that instruction and attack Reagan in ways subtle enough that his/her actions wouldn't be obvious to most listeners. X has planned a lineup intended to be subtly offensive to Reagan's memory.

X put enough information about him/herself in the thread that it was fairly easy for me to identify the radio station X works at, as well as the name/email address of the supervisor who made the request. X specifically commented that if he/she were found out, X could be terminated from the radio station job as well as another job he/she holds. So...do I email the thread to X's boss? On the one hand, it seems incredibly offensive that a radio announcer would violate a boss's request to respect a national day of mourning because of a political grievance, especially by planning a radio selection designed to insult the man being mourned and using public money and donations to do it (this is a public radio station). On the other, it seems cruel to rat a person out to their boss based on what they assumed (even though it's a poor assumption) to be a fairly anonymous Internet post to political allies.

What do y'all think? Should I drop the subject or email X's supervisors with the link to the thread? Or...should I take the middle ground and post the thread and radio station info here, but not forward it to the boss?



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TOPICS: Arts/Photography; Music/Entertainment
KEYWORDS:
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1 posted on 06/10/2004 11:05:36 AM PDT by FreedomFlynnie
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To: FreedomFlynnie
This one's easy: TATTLE.



2 posted on 06/10/2004 11:11:30 AM PDT by sarasota
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To: FreedomFlynnie
If X was stupid enough to leave a trail on the internet then X hung him/her self. Send a link to the station director!



3 posted on 06/10/2004 11:16:47 AM PDT by AZamericonnie ("America is too great for small dreams" President Ronald Reagan)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Oh please. If this idiot went public with his dirty tricks by bragging on the internet, he deserves what he gets.
Just send the supervisor a link to the article and let them decide.

Just think, the little lefty will achieve instant victimhood and be able to whine to everybody about how his right to free speech wasn't respected by his nasty old employer. And the employer won't be shamed by his employee's insubordination.


4 posted on 06/10/2004 11:31:30 AM PDT by Kenton ("Life is tough, and it's really tough when you're stupid" - Damon Runyon)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Another way to look at it is: if things were turned around, would X turn YOU in?



5 posted on 06/10/2004 11:59:58 AM PDT by theDentist (Thanks Ron... we'll take it from here.)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Do it. It's a taxpayer-funded station.



6 posted on 06/10/2004 12:14:13 PM PDT by Ex-Episcopalian
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To: FreedomFlynnie
I want to see the thread. Where's the link?



7 posted on 06/10/2004 12:22:29 PM PDT by JoJo Gunn (Intellectuals exist only if you believe they do. ©)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Hang'em. If the X is that unethical he deserves to be ratted out

8 posted on 06/10/2004 12:30:11 PM PDT by scott0347 ("Free Republic": Disturb, manipulate, demonstrate for the right thing)
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To: sarasota; AZamericonnie; Kenton; theDentist; Ex-Episcopalian; JoJo Gunn; scott0347; All
Well, that was unanimous :-p Here's what I sent:

To: [e-mail] (Program Director Joann Breland)
CC: [e-mail] (General Manager Jeffrey Stoll)
Re: Your announcer may be planning to cause problems tomorrow

Dear Ms. Breland:

In surfing the Internet today, I came across a posting on a message board that appears to be from one of your station's announcers. While he does not reveal his real name in his posting, he indicates that he works for the NPR affiliate in Mobile, AL, and that he is the announcer for the 10 A.M. - 12 P.M. weekday programming block.

In his post, this person stated that, presumably due to a personal political grievance with the late President Reagan, he would not comply with instructions to announce an appropriately respectful memorial program for tomorrow's day of mourning for President Reagan. He solicited ideas that would permit him to ignore or circumvent those instructions and subtly insult Mr. Reagan through his choice of programming. The announcer posts under the user name "misanthrope"; you can read his posting and the replies by him and others at this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1755097#1759511

I am sure you would not want what should be a respectful and nonpartisan observance of the loss of a former President disrupted by the political agenda of one of your announcers. As a taxpayer and supporter of public radio, I trust that you will ensure that tomorrow's memorial programming reflects the solemnity of the death of a former President. Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,


In case it was unclear, the radio station is Mobile 91.3 at http://www.whil.org/ and the link in the email is to the thread at (shock and surprise!) DU. It's probably unnecessary to bombard the station with letters, nasty or otherwise, but the program director and general manager are aware of what happened. I'll post again if I hear anything back.



9 posted on 06/10/2004 1:04:55 PM PDT by FreedomFlynnie (Why is it that people who call themselves "progressives" are always against all progress?)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Surprise, Surprise DU'er. After reading that all I can say is if dynamite were brains this one wouldn't be able to blow himself up! Excellent letter I might add. You done right.



10 posted on 06/10/2004 1:16:14 PM PDT by AZamericonnie ("America is too great for small dreams" President Ronald Reagan)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Well written, courteous, and supported by facts. Bravo!



11 posted on 06/10/2004 1:20:12 PM PDT by theDentist (Thanks Ron... we'll take it from here.)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Forward the link to his boss!



12 posted on 06/10/2004 1:21:20 PM PDT by JustPlainJoe
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To: FreedomFlynnie; All
cat_girl25 (1000+ posts) Thu Jun-10-04 11:53 AM 39.
"Your situation should be broadcast everywhere especially to right wingers".


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It just has, sugah.


13 posted on 06/10/2004 1:25:20 PM PDT by JoJo Gunn (Intellectuals exist only if you believe they do. ©)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
I think you did right, I've always believed, "That the Boss ain't always right, but the Boss is always the Boss.' Good Job

14 posted on 06/10/2004 1:27:58 PM PDT by Kherghan (Who Would Osama Vote For?)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Excellent letter. Well done.



15 posted on 06/10/2004 1:35:33 PM PDT by Nea Wood
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To: weegee; Nea Wood; Kherghan; JoJo Gunn; JustPlainJoe; theDentist; AZamericonnie; scott0347; ...
Thanks for the support, y'all. I just received this reply email from Jeffrey Stoll, the general manager:

Thank you for bring this matter to our attention. It is truly sad when
people you work with and trust feel it necessary to do these things.

Jeffrey R. Stoll, General Manager
WHIL-FM

It appears Mr. Misanthrope won't be undermining President Reagan's memorial after all. Hey - I think I just Freeped someone! :-p



16 posted on 06/10/2004 1:58:19 PM PDT by FreedomFlynnie (Why is it that people who call themselves "progressives" are always against all progress?)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Righteous Freep!!! You did good...



17 posted on 06/10/2004 2:33:24 PM PDT by StrictTime ("I'm StrictTime and I'm a Chat-a-holic.......")
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To: FreedomFlynnie
IDiot "X" posts his idea on a publicly seen messageboard and expects to NOT be revealed?
I say "BURN BABY BURN"



18 posted on 06/10/2004 4:14:17 PM PDT by Darksheare (enthusiasm + energy * willpower / time available = probability of trouble/discovery)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Reach out and Freep
Somebody's plan
Make this world a better place
If you can


Hey, I may be onto something here! LOL



19 posted on 06/10/2004 5:22:31 PM PDT by AZamericonnie ("America is too great for small dreams" President Ronald Reagan)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Bwaaaaaaaahahahahahahah
I wish we could see Mr. Misanthrope's face when the boss shows him the thread and confronts him with it. Or better yet, let him go through his first set, observe his disrespectful attitude/actions, show him the thread and then the door

The Boss is always the Boss

20 posted on 06/10/2004 5:29:25 PM PDT by scott0347 ("Free Republic": Disturb, manipulate, demonstrate for the right thing)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Or maybe it was a remote ZOT, I just love it when a plan blows up in an idiots face.



21 posted on 06/10/2004 5:57:19 PM PDT by Not now, Not ever! (john F'n kerry reminds me of a horse, I'm just not sure which end.)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Well done, fellow freeper! We should all be so vigilant.



22 posted on 06/10/2004 6:46:58 PM PDT by sarasota
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To: All
The guy got fired. That was more extreme than I'd wanted, to say the least.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1764027




23 posted on 06/10/2004 9:10:28 PM PDT by FreedomFlynnie (Why is it that people who call themselves "progressives" are always against all progress?)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/1151571/posts

:)



24 posted on 06/10/2004 10:47:13 PM PDT by WinOne4TheGipper (Pres. Reagan was greeted at the Pearly Gates by his old college buddy, Moses.:-))
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Oh mah Gawd! I'm laughing my ass off right now! One of those whiny geniuses over there actually speculated that us hated Freepers were behind this!
I love pre-emptive strikes; the DUmmies get SOOOOOOOO upset when their childish behavior gets slapped down by grownups!

(Considering that "Misanthrope" worked for NPR, I would imagine that his views probably aren't too out of line with the people who fired him - they must really be pissed for having been put in this position.)

Good work.


25 posted on 06/11/2004 5:19:41 AM PDT by Kenton ("Life is tough, and it's really tough when you're stupid" - Damon Runyon)
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To: FreedomFlynnie
NICE JOB!!! That idiot never knew what hit him, and was so stupid to actually post where he work(ed). Now they are calling for you to be "found out"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1768422

See post 25 - I would be careful about releasing any personal info to ANYONE for a while via email.

Again, NICE JOB!!! You make me proud to be a FReeper!!!



26 posted on 06/11/2004 8:01:08 AM PDT by rocky88 ("It's goin to be the summer of George! (W. Bush, that is!)")
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To: FreedomFlynnie
Misanthrope DESERVED to get fired. Undermining station policy at a publicly funded station in order to be seditious is easy grounds for termination. Don't feel bad at all.

But be prepared for a firestorm of flames in your email. The crack smokers at DU are already making threats and posting your personal information on their site.

I wouldn't worry too much though. They're all bark and no bite. Most of them don't even own guns.



27 posted on 06/11/2004 8:55:59 AM PDT by SAR_dude (Nick the Slick, "Phoenix" C/158/101 1948-1970 - You are not forgotten)
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[Endangered Specie]

149. Ahhh, thank you...

now we know who the rat is.

[mistertrickster]

162. Most of 'em don't even own guns, heh, why do FReeps think that?

about the Left . . .

If you want to compare the size of your gun to the size of mine, I'm up for it.

But, the difference is, I can hit what I aim at with mine, pistol, rifle, shotgun, it makes no difference to me . . .

[janx]

138. How many posts are on it?

The only threads I saw there were relatively short.

[JohnLocke]

108. ****THE FREE REPUBLIC THREAD HAS JUST BEEN PULLED*****

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1151209/posts

"This thread has been pulled.
Pulled on 06/11/2004 1:35:04 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
No thanks."

[JohnLocke]

112. This is most likely to keep any legal liability from the poster (nt).

[WLKjr]

119. Freeperland couldn't handle a almost 500+ posting about it

from over hear at DU. you better bet they were monitoring this hard today, almost all day.

[Endangered Specie]

131. cowards.

[infra172]

135. LOL

Lol

[Catherine Vincent]

156. Too late to pull it. Some of the DUers copied it.

hahaha!!!

[MadHound]

140. A small update folks

Flynn's FR account has just been closed down. Methinks RimJob smells a lawsuit and is trying to cover his ass. LOL, sorry Rimboy, it is too late, screen capture(and karma, esp. karma, is a bitch!

[janx]

145. That kid is going to be in one heck of a lot of trouble.

And the so-called adults who egged him on should be ashamed of themselves.

[Endangered Specie]

151. adults?

please.

[Fear]

144. Updated link

http://www.angelfire.com/theforce/freedomofspeech/index.html

original link:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/1151209/posts

[LTR]

147. Good job!

Mirrored the page!

[Endangered Specie]

155. To quote Bugs Bunny:

Of course you know, this means War!

[jackstraw45]

161. Contact the ACLU!

Last I heard there was still free speech in this country...I HIGHLY doubt the NPR (corporate) wants this kind of publicity.

I'd also get the media involved. Hell, email Paul Krugman or Al Kamen at the Wash Post.

These Gestapo tactics from FR and NPR show Amerika at it's worst.

Land of the free my ass.

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Neecy]

189. f'sure

He's not only a simp, but he shows signs of a very immature mind.

What 21 year old still uses the word 'tattle'? I think this tells us quite a bit about Mr. Flynn. Juvenile, irresponsible, certain of his 'moral' righteousness, and utterly powerless in his own life so he attempted - and succeeded - in exerting power over someone else's life. Doing something destructive in order to gain approval from his freeper friends, probably the only "friends" he has.

One sick puppy.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

166. The problem isn't Lane Flynn....who actually FIRED the DUer?

..its the station manager.

Lane Flynn could have sent that email and the station manager could have dealt with the situation differenlty.

The way I see it it was the station managers right wing politics (im assuming) that got the DUer fired.

So, how do we deal with this?

Organize a boycott of the station when it has a pledge drive.

Letter of complaint to the stations FCC file

Find out if the station manager belongs to a trade association, or if the station belongs to a trade association, and notify them.

[Fear]

168. RIGHT!

VERY GOOD POINT, hope everyone reads it!

[Walt Starr]

169. The letters of complaint to the station will affect them profoundly

if my knowledge of FCC regulations is correct.

[Occulus]

171. but the point is

that this was an outside entity making a concerted effort to get someone fired for their political views. I would think that would be extremely illegal. FR itself would be a target for a suit over this; the DU thread was about Misanwhatever making a political statement.

That's protected, I think even in the workplace under certain restrictions. What you say out of your mouth isn't one of them. Further, he was being fired for statements he made off the clock and not under his employer's authority.

We may as well be slaves to our bosses, waking and sleeping, if his boss was indeed right.

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

177. Well..yes, we can recognize the brownshirt tactics of FR here, but...

...if the management was receptive to them, and in agreement, well, thats a real big issue too.

[Occulus]

186. Obviously they were.

They fired the guy. FR instigated it.

The question is, did the employee confirm his DU screen name to his boss when confronted? If not, his boss fired him based upon pure, uncorroborated speculation. In that case, I would think he has a case against FR, the entity, for instigating his wrongful termination.

edit: added 'confirm' so it would make sense.

[Baltimoreboy]

216. You must be kidding

The FR moron made a complaint. He didn't instigate a firing. If the boss made an incorrect firing, he and his station are to blame, not a guy who sent him an e-mail.

If the e-mail was accurate, then I think the firing is legit. If the complaint was not true (and nothing indicates that, even the complaints from our guy), then it is the fault of the boss, not the complainer.

[DoNotRefill]

239. there's no such thing as wrongful termination in a right to work state....

unless it's for something like whistleblowing or ethnicity or gender or age or something along those (Title 7) lines.

[Norquist Nemesis]

185. Exactly. Action taken by the boss

who has the authority to terminate was the result of an action taken by Lane Flynn. Lane Flynn's purpose was not a 'just wanted to let you know' as evidenced from (now pulled) thread. This was an orchestrated effort.

Maybe the young Mr. Flynn was naive enough to think he might just get called on the carpet with a warning, but the followup replies congratulate him for getting him terminated. That speaks volumes in itself.

To the question of misanthrop using the computer on company time (which is unclear as yet); we don't know the company policy. More importantly, we don't know the climate of the environment. Do other employees use the computers on company time? Are sites restricted for them? Is he the only employee that broke the rules on it? There's some investigation that needs to be done on these things.

PS - in looking at the FR links, I just noticed the "report abuse" button. 99% of the posts are offensive and obusive IMO. LOL

[LuminousX]

175. Exactly!

Lane Flynn and the Freeper F*ckwads really aren't the point. The point is, no one should be fired for what was posted.

I really try to look at it from the point of view of a manager. Let's say I come across a discussion board where one of my employees is talking about a prank. Firing that employee seems way over the top and I would fear the lawsuit because talking and doing are two different things, especially if he was discussing something that wasn't a violation of the law, only company policy.

I would alert the employee that I was aware he was planning something and would encourage him not to follow through with it as it would mean his job. Short, sweet, simple and no lawyers.

Guess the misanthrope's boss didn't think of the legal aspect and now the station will have to eat some court fees.

[AndyTiedye]

187. Was Flynn's Alma Mater Named after THAT Vanderbilt?

the one who said, "Law? Who cares about the law. Hain't I got the power?"

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

194. right..one of the Vanderbilt millionaires. Yet, its a good school

And it isnt that conservative, is it? I thought it was like Emory, a fairly progressive private southern college.

[Occulus]

193. It depends on how you look at it.

Are we really comfortable with an interpretation of the law which allows unconcerned, unconnected third parties to independantly enforce private corporate policy upon the corporation's employees? I thought that went out with Ford's "family values" roving door-knockers.

[uberSub]

213. Ummm...

"Right Wing" station manager? At a PUBLIC radio station???

I've been doing this for 12 years, and I have yet to see such an animal.

Really, the station is just trying to keep the programmers under control. When you've got a guy on your team who is obviously not going to play team ball and wants to go off and do his own thing, regardless of policy, you have to take action. Even lefties have to become somewhat authoritarian when they are the ones placed in charge of running and protecting an institution. What's more important: that WHIL stays on the air and remains a viable public radio source, or that the programmers run wild and do whatever they want and eventually get the station shut down?

I side with the station. No one programmer is worth sacrificing a station for!

[trumad]

222. I gotta ask

Why did the Manager not sit him down and tell him about the email and ask if his intentions were to change the format?

[qwertyMike]

203. Does the NPR station have a Web site??

[sendero]

208. If nothing else...

... I hope this disabuses the holdouts here as the to kind of organization NPR and its affiliates has become.

If you are still funding right-wing radio via NPR, please stop now.

[WLKjr]

211. Kick

[Shopaholic]

227. It seems to me that the little Freeper creep

has a fine career ahead of him. I'm sure he'll use this incident as a springboard to get hired by the Bush Administration. Why he's just a regular little Lee Atwater in the making isn't he? But Flynn? My dear? Do a Google on ole' Lee and check out how karma came back to bite him in the ass in the end as it will no doubt get you too in some fashion. If you're reading--you must be real, real proud of yourself-getting someone fired. Have you stopped to think that this person had bills to pay? What if they had a family to support? And for what? All because they disagreed with YOUR political beliefs? Read the Constitution of this country. Hell, open up a book and read why the founding fathers of this country actually decided that it was necessary to self-govern. You might learn about how they were persecuted by the government and how important freedom of speech and thought were to the founders of this country. While you're at it, read up on the tactics that Hitler used to seize control of his country. I think you might find that you have far more in common with Hitler than you do the Founding Fathers of the U.S. Why don't you be a man and come on this board, register with your REAL name and answer your many critics here? I tell you why you can't and you won't--because you're not a man. You're a sniveling coward who only knows how to stab people in the back. But that's okay--there are plenty of us here on DU who are brave enough to let people in your life know the kind of person you truly are and do it openly and honestly. Karma--it's a bitch!