Is U.S. REALLY like Germany in the 30's?

[ElementaryPenguin]

Andrew Greeley of the Chicago Sun-Times sure thinks so. One thing's for sure - it's getting pretty damn close.

:puke:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/greeley/cst-edt-greel11.html

[SlingBlade]

1. You give these Neo’s an inch

They'll take a mile, Where on a collision course with fascism in this country
They have perverted the very notion of what Patriotism stands for the Camps would not be far away if they had their way.
And I’m serious about this.

[LittleApple81]

2. As soon as BushCo started with the Iraq meme, a GERMAN newspaper

(I think it was the SUDDEUTCHE ZEITUNG) published BushCo's statements and the Nazi regime's statements when preparing to attack their neighbors side by side...ALMOST IDENTICAL!
But of course we Americans were not privileged enough to see this...

[ElementaryPenguin]

18. Herr ScumsfeldCheneyRove seem to refer to their Nazi playbook at every tur

:puke:

[trof]

3. Well, the beer's not as good here.

Outside of that...?
;-)

[AntiCoup2K4]

4. Freeways aren't as good either

Nor are most of the cars on them. One exception being Volkswagens, ironically enough, though most of the newer models don't exactly fit Adolf's vision of being the car for the common people. That and the Autobahn were the 2 things Hitler got right. Doesn't outweigh his negatives by any means, but it's scary to think Hitler actually HAD 2 positives and Junior has none. :scared:

[NewJeffCT]

8. another one...

Hitler actually worked hard to become a good public speaker. * is too f-ing lazy to work on his public speaking.

[ElementaryPenguin]

19. Yeah. Bushler is really a poor man's(or billionaire's) Hitler!

Far less accomplished - actually even less sincere (and far less knowledgeable wannabe fascist dictator!

:puke:

[Waverley_Hills_Hiker]

5. this is Father Greeley?

He wrote a pretty good article here. Pretty damn good.

[Kellanved]

6. No

I do not deny that a few propagandistic twists, even policies were also used by the NS. Some of those even were invented by them, most were old even then.
But hold on: for example the Olympic Torch thing (a laughable custom, if you think about it) was introduced by the Nazis, yet the event gets repeated every four years.

Few Witnesses are still alive; the IMHO best report is Haffner: "Defying Hitler". I got a comic named "Berlin" by Lutes from a friend. It is surprisingly well done and offers an interesting view on the Berlin of the late Weimar days - of course it is by no means historically accurate.

[uberSub]

7. NOPE!

I will go into detail, for those unable to detach from their hyperbole.

[Zorra]

12. Please, by all means, enlighten us.

And post your disagreements with the article posted in the original message in this thread.

[tom_paine]

15. Oh, please do

make sure you cite relevant historical parallels that bolster your point.

Without them, well, you'd be just another blowhard with his head in the sand...

[Beetwasher]

35. Don't Count On It

Your first instincts are correct...

"...just another blowhard with his head in the sand..."

[Yupster]

9. We'll find out soon enough

Once Hitler became Chancellor of Germany, there were no more elections for Chancellor held. Opposition parties were banned and opposition leaders were imprisoned or worse.

The comparison seems nonsensical to me, but I'll watch in November. If the elections are cancelled, Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton disappears and the Deocratic Party is legally banned, then I'll think Nazi Germany.

Already I'm skeptical because in 1936, there was no John Kerry running around Germany urging a vote against Hitler. And there sure were no publicly legal sites where citizens could post criticisms of Hitler like we see posted on DU every day.

[tom_paine]

11. If you wait for this incarnation of Totalitarianism to exactly resemble

the last incarnation or the one before it (Commuism, Fascism), you will have a very long wait indeed.

You are absolutely correct but you miss the point.

Marketing 101: If you want to reintroduce a discredited product in a new package, studiously avoid comparisons to the old, discredited product you are trying to reintroduce in new form.

Amerikan Totalitarianism will, by necessity of that rule and by the necessity of the technological progerss that has been made in information dissemination, look very different that German Totalitarianism.

The Imperial Family will use that to confuse you, and make you hesitate. As it always was, Totalitarian Barbarians use the Civilized Man's Adherence to Rule of Law and theCivilized Man's Delibertaive thought (when Busheviks/Freepers/Brownshirts havbe all the deliberative thought of the Nazis they are so much like, except in the areas of violence and overt racism) to take action while Ciuvilized Man is pondering.

Amerikan Totalitarianism, by necessity of the Old Amerikan Republic which it supersedes (compared to the much weaker and shorter-lived and externally imposed Weimar Republic), will NOT outlaw the Democratic Party. It will simply be a useless shell and perpetual "Minority Party". Eventually, if the Imperial Family isn;t stopped, it will likely be used by Caligula and Nero Bush to perpetuate the illusion (as it was perpetuated in Imperial Rome) of Freedom and Self-Goevrnance.

[ElementaryPenguin]

21. Excellent post, TP!!

:toast:

[Eloriel]

33. Nor do we have to dispense with voting -- not as long as

elections can be stolen as they were in 2000, and as they (likely) were in several spots in 2002 where electronic voting machines were used.

That way they can have the best of all possible worlds: an effective totalitarian state, with the illusion of democracy so the natives don't get too restless, and the ones who do can be disappeared and detained as "enemy combatants" withont one single shred of Constitutional protection.

Clever plan, isn't it?

[Q]

27. Who was it that said...

...'civilized societies are easily conquered' because they're programmed to follow the law?

- I agree that people make a serious mistake when they think America's fascism will resemble that of Germany or Italy. Modern techology and mass communications can do for the Bushies things that despots like Hitler and Stalin could only dream about.

- But it 'feels' like everything else is in place: a rubber stamp congress and no real opposition. A nation at perpetual war against a faceless enemy. Nationalism replaces patriotism. And most of all...a government unaccountable to the people's representatives or the people.

[ElementaryPenguin]

30. And Bushler has another thing Hitler never had: NUKES!

Which spells Y-I-K-E-S for the rest of us earthlings!!!


:scared:
:mad:

[billybob537]

10. Some similarities

Invasion of Poland-- Invasion of Iraq.
Surpressing disenting points of view.
using patriotism as a weapon.
Scary but not out of control yet.
Wait til Nov. 3rd then panic if shrubco* "wins"

[Media_Lies_Daily]

16. But you're assuming that we're still having elections....

...let's see what happens if the predicted "terrorist attack" takes place this summer. How much you want to bet that under those circumstances martial law will be declared and elections will be postponed indefinitely?

[Q]

29. But...will elections actually have to be 'postponed' to give the desired..

...results for the Bushies? They accomplished the unthinkable in 2000: election fraud and a corrupt/partisan supreme court and no one held accountable. What's to stop them from doing it again with another variation of election fraud?

- This 'new fascism' requires one to think outside of the box.

[K-W]

13. Not nearly as bad, which is why Bush is crumbling.

But yes, other than that its a good comparison.

[OneTwentyoNine]

14. Well,Bush hasn't been thrown in jail for a couple of years like Hitler..

He should have been after the Florida putsch but he wasn't. So...I guess it isn't totally like 30's Germany but close...

David

[Zorra]

24. Bu$h was born "filthy" rich and has been granted special

privileges, not given to ordinary Americans, throughout his entire life.

Hitler was a poverty stricken lunatic.

[bbernardini]

17. I thought you were making a World Entertainment War reference!

Great album and band, by the way.

[WillyT]

20. Not Quite Yet, But That Fork In The Road We Passed 3 1\2 Years Ago...

WE MADE A WRONG TURN THERE FOLKS!!! (Actually, the 'driver' ignored our instructions and warnings.)

And that path DOES lead to Germany in the '30's, yes indeedy!!!

:nuke:

Hey EP, how's it hangin dude!

:hi:

[ElementaryPenguin]

23. Hey Willy T!

Surving pretty well - considering the fact that we've lost our government to a FUCKING ruthless, murderous, militaristic, totalitarian regime!! Other than that, I'm cool. Hope to see ya at another big demonstration. (hopefully it won't be one to protest a theft of another (s)election!) Bushler is really getting his ass kicked lately. We've got to keep the pressure on these child torturing war criminals!

:toast:
:party:
:evilgrin:

[Just Me]

22. If anyone here has first-hand experience, we might get an answer.

I do not.

[kaitykaity]

25. Yes and no.

You could say no, because there was no equivalent of Kristallnacht,
the Night of the Long Knives.

You could say yes, and equate 9/11 with the Reichstag fire.

You could say no, because although the Patriot Act strips some
people of their rights, there's been no equivalent of the 1933
German legisslation that fully dehumanized the Jews.

It's tough.

[ElementaryPenguin]

26. It's Islamics (and libruls) that get dehumanized by this gang of thugs!

If Tom Delay should get the kind of legislation he wants - any non-Christian can consider themselves dehumanized!

[kaitykaity]

28. Not like it was there, though.

It's not comparable.

Not yet, anyway. Give Bush another term, and we'll
freaking get there.

[ludwigb]

31. Nationalism...Nationalism is the problem

There is no need to compare Bush to Hitler (a counterproductive exercise at best) in order to condemn nationalism--the common collorary to militarism, which is the real evil here. American nationalism, armed with its pride and hubris, has served to rationalize the disaster in Iraq.

The only way to stop nationalism is to counter it with an ideology of international solidarity. Bush's policies make it difficult for us, but we must persevere.

[ibegurpard]

32. People who dismiss this as so much hyperbole

don't seem to recognize that Hitler didn't start slaughtering Jews the day after he took office. It took a while and the parallels with his rise to power are unnerving.

[ElementaryPenguin]

34. Precisely, I! We're talking early 30's - and we're heading down

an incredibly similar path! Finding it hard to believe that so many Americans have gotten so fucking thick between the ears, that they cannot recognize the numerous glaring parallels!

:argh:

[donhakman]

37. We are using the exact same excuse Hitler used

Regarding enemy combatents.

http://www.interventionmag.com/cms/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=750

[FighttheFuture]

36. I now think there will be elections, it just won't matter...

Think about it... Throw the dice and see if they can fudge it enough to win and provide the cover for their domination.

If they loose, well, how did Congress do? Are they still in enough control to stave off progressive fixes while Kerry and the Dems are savaged for four years ala Clinton? If not, then they have 2 months to figure out a solution. Let's see... terror attack... Kerry and his veep... horrible... martial law with a tried and true "terra leader".

There are so many ways to screw the pooch and they are getting better every time!

[camero]

38. something you might want to look at

http://www.thirdreich.net/Thought_They_Were_Free.html

But Then It Was Too Late



"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know it doesn't make people close to their government to be told that this is a people's government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing to do with knowing one is governing.

What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if he people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

It's happening here the same way.

[russian33]

39. Hitler was elected, Bush wasn't...

..but the propaganda is very similar...

[Frangible]

40. Hitler wasn't elected

Contarary to popular belief. He actually lost the election.

But, he did actually serve in the military in combat, unlike Bush. He was a good speaker and very charismatic, unlike Bush.

And he had a mustache, unlike Bush. So clearly, they're vastly different.

[russian33]

41. mmm, learn something new every day...

I always thought he was elected...good to know.

Then again, I used to live in USSR, now we had elected leaders, Grandpa Stalin for example :7