Should the US issue an apology to Black People for slavery?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Just wondering what the concensus here is

[MASSAFRA]

1. I thought Clinton

already did.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

When?

Did I miss that?

[DrWeird]

3. He apologized to Africa.

I don't think he apologized to African Americans.

[Bandit]

18. An expression of Regret

http://personalwebs.myriad.net/steveb/apology.html

Washington -- I am taking back what I said earlier about how an official apology for slavery wouldn't mean much.
That was my reaction last year when U.S. Rep. Tony Hall, D-Ohio, first proposed the idea. I didn't think much of it then.
What, I asked, will it change?
Whom, if anyone, can it help?
How long should I hold my breath before the Page family finally would receive my freed great-great-granddaddy's promised 40 acres and a mule?
But I have reconsidered. I have changed my mind. Yeas, I even apologize.
I was wrong when I said such an apology wouldn't mean much. Judging by the hostility of reactions to President Clinton's recent expression of "regret" for America's role in slavery, it must mean a lot more than I thought it did.
"Going back to the time before we were even a nation, European-Americans received the fruits of the slave trade," he said while visiting Uganda at the outset of his 12-day Africa visit, "and we were wrong in that."
As statements go, this one was about as safe and factually accurate as any could be. He didn't even apologize. Not quite. But judging by the fallout on some radio talk shows, you might think the president not only had apologized but called for reparations.
"I didn't own any slaves, why do I need to apologize?" said one caller, predictably.

[Curious Dave]

2. Yes and reparations too! nt

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

4. In what form? And how?

I'm just playing devil's advocte

:)

[gvi]

37. hell no

[Demobrat]

5. Hey, I'm for reparations.

Not cash, but in the form of scholarships and seed money for small businesses.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

6. Sounds good. Taxpayer funded - a Federal program?

What about corporations like Aetna who insured slave traders?

[Demobrat]

12. Well, sure, it would have to be

taxpayer funded. Isn't everything? Businesses that profited from slavery would have to be assessed separately and billed accordingly.

[gvi]

38. Let's all move and give America back to Native Americans too

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. That's good, I like that. You think that up by yourself?

Or did you get help?

[gvi]

55. plenty of help. do you have an answer though?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

57. An answer to what?

Your statement?

[gvi]

66. an answer to giving back what is belonged

to native americans of course, or can you not remember that long.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

68. Well since it was a statement and not a question I didn't think it needed

answering. And thats an impossible thing to do. You're trying to paint this in a "if you do this then we have to go to an absolute extreme" I'm talking about doing realistic things. Frankly the more money indigenous people make in casinos and such is a slap in the face to the people who stole their land from them.

[gvi]

73. so you don't feel native americans have been wronged

[Cheswick2.0]

115. oops, you're dead

[goclark]

13. Absolutely

[Walt Starr]

117. That's a reasonable means of reparations!

I'd support that with the caveat that the applicant must demonstrate they are descended from slaves. In most cases, should be easy to do and would stop any fraud from happening.

[David Zephyr]

7. And Pay Reparations, Too.

n/t

[ibegurpard]

8. as long as you're wondering

I have to ask what brought this on?
:shrug:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. I noticed a thread asking if we should apologize to Japan for the A-Bomb

(which I think we should) however I think, first things first, we should apologize to the indigenous tribes and the slaves upon whos backs our country was built - literally. That's all.

[Forkboy]

10. I think we should

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

82. um

wtf are you talking about?

(I admit I may not want to know the answer)

[drthais]

11. of COURSE they should

but on the matter of reparations....
nice idea
but where in hell is that money going to come from now?

[onecitizen]

14. Yes........

not that anything we do could make up for what we did to them. But we should try to.

[progdonkey]

15. Apology, yes, Reparations, no

While I think an apology would be good in a moral sense, it won't really serve much purpose because the people who actually suffered through slavery have been long dead. We apologized to the Japanese who suffered through the WWII internment camps, but that was to the actual people who were interned, not just their descendants.

The idea of providing reparations in the form that some black leaders have called for (basically, cash) is simply ludicrous. What members of this minority within a minority are really saying is that they deserve money and status because of who their grand-daddy was (isn't that supposed to be one of the reasons we hate Dubya?). Blacks who arrived after slavery ended don't figure into their idea of Reparations, yet haven't those blacks suffered the same racism as those who descended from slaves? It's not like slave-descendants are the only minorities who have suffered discrimination or have to live in the ghettos. Instead of giving a lot of money to a few lucky individuals who happen to be descendants of slaves, we should be putting money into inner-city schools and college programs that will help all blacks, latinos, and whites who haven't been given the oppurtunity to succeed in this country.

So, my opinion on an apology is "It can't hurt. So why not?" I don't really think I have any reason to apologize for what other people's ancestors did to some other people's ancestors (even if my ancestors were slave holders I'd be under no obligation), but I wouldn't look down on someone who felt the urge to apologize. The idea of Reparations is just a product of demagoguery among a few black leaders that has no moral weight or practicality.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. Have you ever read the Autobiography of Malcolm X?

[gvi]

42. Seen the Movie.

Malcolm X didn't think he was owed reparations.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

44. He wanted at the very least acknowledgement of the crimes the White Man

had visited upon his people. To suggest otherwise is laughable.

[gvi]

58. before he died malcolm X

relized that white man is not the devil. the devils were the non believers of islam. maybe you didn't read the book or watch the movie. Malcolm X's last thoughts are what got him killed, not the errors he accepted at the beginning of his faith.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

60. That's a skewed interpretation. He never let the White Man off the hook

for his barbaric crimes. After his hajj Malcolm found that not all whte people were devils. He didn't suddenly change his mind and embrace whites. That's rediculous.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

65. Are you serious?

Now you're sounding foolish.

[Name removed]

67. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

69. Are you calling me a racist?

[gvi]

75. now you're having trouble

reading as well as discerning facts.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

76. I'm trying to understand you but your dazzling intillect has me dizzy

Are you calling me a fucking racist or aren't you?

[gvi]

78. looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, must

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[3 Cents and Change]

16. Reparations

One question I've always had about people who are pro-reaparations is would they then consider everything to be 'square'. What I mean is once reparations are paid, would the people accepting them be willing to accept a world with absolutely no affimative action, 8a set assides, etc.?

I think there should be an apology, just like there should be an apology from the nations that slaves came from as well. To think that the United States was the only nation to use slavery back then is ignoring historical fact. In fact, slavery amongst warring African tribes was quite common.

[gvi]

43. awesome points

[Terran]

109. No they're not

This person doesn't know what he's talking about if s/he is comparing African tribal slavery to the US system.

[TexasMexican]

17. Sure

just as long as no one brings up reparations.

[Obamarama]

19. No....

I know I'm going to get flamed, but an emphatic NO is my answer.

Not because slavery wasn't a reprehensible, horrible legacy in American history. It was.

But the current generation of Americans aren't - can't be - responsible for what previous generations did.

I am Jewish. Most of my mom's family members were murdered by Hitler. Do I hold today's Germans responsible and look for them to issue an apology to me and my people? Absolutely not.

Those who have been opressed have all the reasons and rights in the world to be victims. But somewhere the self-victimization needs to cease and one needs to move on.

I'm sorry, but I think the issue of apologies and reparations for something we had no control over is ridiculous. Can we, should we, do more to heal the wounds the legacy of slavery inflicted on our society? Absolutely. Can we, should we, do more to fight racism, which is a direct byproduct of our legacy of slavery? Without question.

But ask me to take moral and financial responsibility for something I had no control over? It will be a cold day in hell before that happens.

[Dark]

21. I agree with you.

I don't believe I should apologize for slavery as I had no part in it. My ancestors may have, and they may have not. I don't know, but they are the ones who are responsible, not me.

Also, you'd have to wonder if it would mean anything. After all, when you say you're sorry, you're supposed to MEAN it. I wouldn't, and I don't know many whites who, if coerced into it, would.

I also regard reparations similarly and agree with you. I had no control over slavery. I wouldn't have allowed it if I could. But I had no control over it.

Why should I have to pay for something I didn't do?

[DrWeird]

24. Nobody's saying you should apologize.

We are discussing if the US government should apologize, as it was responsible for the institution of slavery. And it also gained financially from it.

[Obamarama]

39. That's even more ludicrous of an idea....

How does a government apologize? Again...today's government is not that of the pre-civil war era.

An entity can't apologize. The idea that anyone or anything today should take the responsibility for something we had no control over is not very palatable, nor is it a very intelligent response.

I think pretty much everyone agrees slavery was a blemish on our national heritage. We didn't create the situation. We can only seek to understand it better.

I'm just not getting it. I've tried to understand the issue from the other side of the fence, but it's just not happening for me.

[-..__...]

101. An apology amounts to a legal smoke screen.

Apologize, and it's interpreted by the courts as an admission of guilt.

That apology will be used as evidence/testimony for monetary reparations further on the down the road.

An apology is neither warranted or deserved.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

26. Wow - you feel VERY stronly about this

Point taken (not agreed with) but taken

[Burma Jones]

30. I'm with you

Let's also remember the hundreds of thousands of poor white folks, the vast majority of them never owning slaves, that died in the Civil War. Lincoln saw the war as some sort of atonement.

[RowWellandLive]

100. I agree with your every word

and I am Jewish too.

I am not in any way responsible for slavery, nor is anyone else alive. I do not believe in guilt transcending generations. An apology would be hollow and accomplish nothing.

I do not want nor expect an apology from todays Germans who have no responsibility for the Holocaust. How can one apologize for something they had no part in?

This country has come a long way regarding race relations and still has a ways to go. Demands for apologies and reparations (ridiculous) only serve to put the majority on the defensive and hurt more then they help.

[northofdenali]

20. Yes, absolutely.

And once we are back on a steady economic course, reparations to the indiginous peoples and blacks is a must.

[Misinformed01]

22. Hell yes.

about ohhhh say 140 years too late.

[Curious Dave]

23. Reparations

Such a thorny and divisive topic. First off, I don't see how a one time cash settlement could really square any accounts between the society that has exploited and abused and the individuals that have been its victims. I think cash payments serve as a good starting point, but the actually process would take years. And where should the cash come from - I'd suggest taking it from the exploiter classes that subjugated the victims in the first place; straight white men and the companies they own and control!

Beyond cash settlements I think reparations would have to include an affirmative action program that had some real teeth in it!

For example:

Guaranteed college admission and scholarship programs
Guaranteed preference in federal, state, and local jobs
Guaranteed preference in federal, state, and local business contracts
A waiver from paying any form of taxes

And how long should these programs be left in place? As long as it takes! 50 years, 100 years...whatever it takes.

My dream for reparations (not that any of this will ever happen) would not be limited to African-Americans either. It would include other victim groups, Hispanic-Americans, Native-Americans, Gays and Lesbians, the differently-abled.

I know this all sounds a little extreme, but after all the generations upon generations of social injustice in this country, extreme measures are probably the only thing that will work.

But lets be honest, the reason none of this is ever going to happen is because upper income white men don't want to give up the advantages they have in life (either directly or over the generations) at the expense of others. Sure, everyone pays lip service to the idea that everyone else should be allowed to have as big a slice of pie as the next person. But, when you explain that the pie is only so big and that it is impossible to give everyone a bigger piece of pie and that the only way to achieve fairness it to make their slice smaller... watch out!

[gvi]

46. How much have you already given

If you truly believe any of this, how much have you already given? Just a question.

[Curious Dave]

52. I'm Gay

and we've been fighting our own battles against hate and discrimination for years as well. I give a lot of time and money to that cause, but admittedly less to other causes. As individuals we can't give 100% in every battle against injustice in this country. Its sad, but these days it seems like there is more injustice than there are people willing to fight it. And what are you doing for the cause of right in our country these days if I may ask?

[gvi]

62. I am active everyday to help my fellow man.

I donate time, money, and effort every month if not every week, or day. I help peole to realise that it takes people not governments to get results. I don't own land. therefore i have not taken from native americans. being gay does not mean you are exempt. getting a rash of shit from the status quo does not mean you don't need to try. quit whining and become active.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

63. You , sir or madame, are a living saint

maybe George W will eulogize you one day!

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

83. to quote you

"if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck"

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

91. "turd"?

LMFAO....does your mom know you're still up and using her computer?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

81. LOL - you are too funny!

Thanks for the laugh !!!

[Forkboy]

84. speaking of websites

how's your's doing.There must be all of ten posts there.

I especially liked these quotes from you;

"I love my Freedom Fries with Ketchup. If we are going to go all the way with the war on terror we need to pave over France. "

"Please note that the Liberal bias in media isn't a conspiracy though. Its just that when polled 9 out of 10 people involved with media are Liberal. this maybe do to the sheer volume of them teaching media at the university level I think subconciously they let the bias slip in."

"And Ryan every single recount that was done has still come up as Bush winning. Including recounts done by the New York Times, Washington Post, LA times, and CNN."

" Of course you have to go to places that are objective not the New Republic or Democratic Underground."

"I am having a real stinking problem with this jobs issue here in Memphis. I have plenty of friends and acquaintances that are working in IT. I have heard them complain about losing "our" jobs daily. Well here's a little bit of history that shows how sending jobs overseas is good for the world and us."

"To me, and I may be numb to a lot of issues, this is a perfect example why whoever is going to take office, needs a strong national defense. The issues of gay marriages, job loss, and environment will come later. maybe in a second term, but not now. not while the safety of our nation is in jeopardy. If you refute this, I dare you to post and I will tear apart any argument put forth."

Fucking Libertarians are as useless as tits on a bull.

[gvi]

87. i don't like government.

I think it is evil. I think all of Americas problems can be solved through its people not its government. But you must not be a fan of Jefferson or you'd agree.

[Forkboy]

90. Jefferson was government

typical screwed up Libertarian :crazy:

[lanparty]

93. Reparations for equal opportunity!!!

Guaranteed college admission and scholarships.
Guaranteed jobs.

Why not give to everybody???? Or do we need "special" priveleges for poor folk who happen to not be white.

Unless you haven't noticed, the vast majority of poor folk in this country are WHITE!!! Poverty isn't a racial problem. It's a societal problem. Pursuing a racial solution will only divide the electorate.

In other words, you're playing right into their hands. Keep it up, and those poor white folks will vote Republican until the end of time.

[bemildred]

27. How about money? Best apology I can think of. nt

[RowWellandLive]

102. Money from whom???

Where do you this money comes from? Do poor white people need it any less?

[bemildred]

106. I would be more than happy to give poor white people money too.

We could call it "The War on Poverty" or something like that.

As for where it would come from, there is something over
one-half trillion in the defense budget, most of it wasted,
and plenty more to be found if we were to go back to the tax
structure we had in the 50s.

[Delano]

28. Not really.

These were privateers that did it. It wasn't the government itself that enslaved people, it just failed to extend constitutional protections to the kidnapped blacks.

At any rate, if they were to apologize for not protecting the rights of slaves, it should be an apology to all people of any color who were enslaved or in indentured servitude. A number of blacks were free, and a number of whites were not.

Sorry to split hairs.

Also, some blacks are ridiculously wealthy. I think it would be a shame for the government to give reparations to Oprah Winfrey, when the next little Eminem may be starving in a trailer park.

I'd be much more amenable to free college for ALL lower-income people "in honor of" the hardships endured by enslaved Africans - or something like that.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. "A number of blacks were free, and a number of whites were not."

What are you referring to here.

I agreed with your last sentence, sounds like a great idea, truly. But that sentence before got me.

[Delano]

45. There have been free blacks throughout this nation's history

And there were whites in servitude.

Giving out a reparation on the basis of skin color alone would be discriminatory, and would be remunerating some people whose families were NOT affected by slavery, while NOT remunerating some whose families WERE.

...Not to mention that at this point, the government would not be able to afford much.

I prefer the college idea, something like that.

Too bad the freed slaves didn't just get their 40 acres and a mule in the first place...

I often wonder who got the worse deal, the Indians, or the enslaved Africans? Tough to say...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

49. Thats a depressing thing to ponder

I do like your college idea alot. It makes me think. Thanks!

[gvi]

47. what about native americans. we should give them back their land

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

48. Why exactly do you oppose this so vehemently mr or mrs newcomer?

May I ask?

[gvi]

59. No opposition. I think if we make reparations, we should also give

back america. nuff said. i don't see how anyone can be pro one and not the other.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

61. I see

Very well. Nice "discussion"

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

29. It seems to me that alot of folks here think that slavery was abolished so

whipe your hands, that period is done with. That's a convenient way to clear one's conscience. What about the great betrayal after the civil war? What about black people being simply dumped into sharecropping (slavery under a different name). What about the pushing of blacks into ghettoes? What about Jim Crow, segregation, the KKK, LYNCHINGS????

Slavery isn't gone - it's changed and mutated. All this while no official apology has ever been given, no acknowledgement - just "it wasn't my ancestors". Slavery is over - good luck putting a life together for yourselves!

[Burma Jones]

35. My Grandparents were sharecroppers and child laborers

Five, yes five, of my paternal ancestors were lynched because of their supposed sympathy for abolitionists in pre-war Missouri. My conscience is clear. If you want to talk about apologies and reparations to all the poor and exploited, that's something else, but I look at it as a class thing, not a race thing. Should the Africans whose ancestors sold the slaves to the white guys apologize too? I mean, they were the rich and powerful that sold their chattel to our rich and powerful. Shit, have we even apologized to Native Americans?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

36. No and I think we should. And yes those Africans who sold their people

to the whites should apologize but we're talking about america. Not you personally. What real acknowledgement have we given, as a nation, to the mistreatment and neglect for an entire segment of society?

[lanparty]

94. Does one inherit guilt?????

Isn't that a very odd notion. That would imply that one should inherit privelege as well.

[gvi]

50. what about slaves making homesteads on native american soil.

what about whites clearing out natives so slaves can live in their homes. did the slaves throw up arms and say we will not displace these people. we'd rather sleep in the woods. every dollar made in america should be given to the natives. the cherokee, choctaw, chippewa, cheyenne, souix, fox, mohawk, iriquios, onieda, and navajo and all the other tribes to numerated to name.

[Obamarama]

51. The German government never apologized to my mom....

She had a number tattooed on her arm to remind her of the hell she experienced, all the days of her life.

What's more she didn't EXPECT one. We discussed it many times, regarding war reparations to Jews who survived the Holocaust.

She told me once that if she had allowed herself to be bitter and victimized by what she endured, then they (the Nazis) would have succeeded in destroying her. She said it was always there, just beneath her skin, waiting to rear its ugly head. But she would not let a horrible period in history determine her quality of life and happiness in the present.

EDIT: I'm also not saying that because my mom didn't get an apology, blacks shouldn't get an apology. That's not it at all. I'm just trying to say we need to move on and do something constructive in the present to move beyond the wounds it inflicted, and I don't think an official apology accomplishes that. I think it would be a hollow expression, quite frankly.

[RowWellandLive]

105. What you are missing

is that most white people have no guilty conscience to clear. What happened to Black people before and after the Civil War was abysmal. But personally, I have no responsibility and no guilt what so ever. I refuse to pay one dime of my hard earned tax dollars to apologize for something I had no part in.

Racism exists today in many forms. However, so does sexism, nepotism, cronyism, classicism, etc. Should women get reparations too?

Give it up. Reparations is going no where and the pursuit of them will guarantee Republican dominance for years to come. Wisely, John Kerry has never mentioned this issue. It is as divisive a loser as they come.

[Tomee450]

111. I think you will be sorely disappointed.

Reparations is a just cause even if their are millions who object to it being paid. It's quite easy for someone who has never experienced the torment of racial discrimination to tell those who have to move along, get over it. The situation of blacks in this country is unique.Yes white women have been discriminated against but their whiteness prevented them from experiencing discrimation at the level of the black person. I am sure you are more than aware of that.

As far as your belief that whites have no guilt to clear, I say blacks had no guilt to clear either but their tax dollars went to pay reparations for others;they were not exempt. Also, you are paying everyday for things you have had no part in. Did you have a say in what happened with Iraq? I would think not yet billions of tax dollars are going to pay for that war. Do you have a say in what happens with foreign aid. No. Yet your tax dollars in the billions are going to states like Egypt, India and Israel. Have you also expressed your anger about that? Why is it that when blacks are seen to be receiving assistance that suddenly great outraged is expressed?

Blacks have been treated terribly yet we have people who object to even an apology being made. Very troubling.

[zaj]

32. Wasn't that a major point of the Civil War?

600,000 dead says a lot.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

33. The civil war was about economics just like evry other war

the slavery bit was very convenient. You might not know it but Lincoln was a racist.

[gvi]

53. you must not know much

Lincoln wasn't a racist by any true definition. Sure the civil war was fought over economics, as it suggests in "When in the
Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Succession". But slavery was the vital cheap labor of the southern economic system. The north and south fought over cheap labor. the north was losing market share from the south because of this. They truly wanted to end slavery. whether for money or morals is the question you should ask.

[Hammie]

72. So, how come the North wasn't succeeding from the South?

[lanparty]

95. Agreed

Poor southern whites were hurt tremendously by slavery. And after reconstruction, they were tricked into blaming black folk for all their problems.

Racism is a system of thought inflicted by the affluent classes upon poor. Like Randi says, the folks in the gated communities don't give a shit what color you are. As long as you are rich, you're good.

The schism between poor white folk and poor black folk prevents the two groups from turning on their REAL oppresors. The wealthy who plot and scheme how to squeeze every bit of life and vitality out of poor and middle class peoples.

[Tomee450]

114. I disagree with Randi

"Like Randi says, the folks in the gated communities don't give a shit what color you are. As long as you are rich, you're good."

Wealthy white people do give a shit what color you are. They might get upset with the lower class white but just let a black try to move into their gaited communities. In many instances they would become hysterical. I remember reading about the late comedian Godfrey Cambridge who bought a home in a wealthy white suburb. His experience was horrible. Not too long after moving there,he died. One wonders whether that constant harassment contributed to his death. Wealthy black people cannot get cabs in major cities of this country, cannot rent apartments in certain sections of New York. Wealthy black people have appeared at certain functions only to have whites hand them their car keys thinking that this black person dressed neatly in a suit is the parking lot attendant. In this instance, Randi does not know what she is talking about.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

34. Apologies and reparations.

Long, long, overdue. Not only for slavery but for the abandoned reconstruction and the ensuing 100+ years of racial injustice.

[gvi]

54. might as well ask people not to be diverse.

I've been misguided. I have always been taught that being diverse is good. You can not have diversity without people being different. The individual is the smallest minority group in the world because no one is like him or her no matter how hard they try.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

56. I've read your posts and I can't tell what the fuck you're talking about

Please enlighten me how diversity had anything to do with the post you were responding to.

[gvi]

71. of course you wouldn't

100 years of racial discrimination is terrible. diversity has been our answer. the problem is when you pass laws to diversify you actually cause groups and factions. You don't get one mass from separating everyone into parties. Or can't you figure that out.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

74. Just keep up with the fucking rude comments and childish taunts

you have a good time with it pal

[gvi]

77. of course, regress to ad hominem attacks

[Forkboy]

92. like calling someone a "turd"?

:crazy:

[Terran]

112. What exactly do you mean by

"diversity has been our answer." That makes no sense whatsoever. The US has always been diverse, from before it's existence as a nation. You use the word "diversity" in a way that I would expect to hear from a conservative, implying that "diversity" is some sort of formal social program that the government has instituted.

Actually, don't bother answering. You'll be banned fairly shotly, I imagine.

Edit: oops, I spoke to soon! Buh-bye.

[MrsMatt]

70. At risk of getting flamed, here are my thoughts.

I'm conflicted about this subject, especially considering that my ancestors had absolutely no connection with slavery - they all emigrated from Europe after the civil war and were dirt poor peasants. Why should I pay for something my antecendents didn't profit from (and don't think that because we were of white European decent, we had any sort of privileged upbringing - my generation is the first to go to college, and we had to work like dogs in order to afford it).

I can also see where the idea of reparations could seem like a good idea, especially if one subscribes to the Old Testement adage "sins of the father. . . "

But in complete fairness, how can one determine WHO gets the money? Does someone who looks white, but who had an ancestor who was enslaved, get anything? Or does the person who appears to be more black get the prize even if their ancestors were freed prior the the revolution? What about white ancestors were indentured servants and died before completing their contract? What about the Irish at the turn of the century?

There are too many damned variables - you cannot equitably distribute funds without someone getting screwed.

In answer to your question - apology yes (what does it hurt), reparations no.

Flame away, but if you try to pull the "low post" card on me, it won't fly since I've been a member almost two years (I just don't post a lot of "what he said" and vanity posts).

[Tomee450]

85. Your arguments just won't wash.

In the black community were people who looked white but were known to have black ancestry. They were treated just as harshly as other blacks. They could not go to white schools, lived in segregated neighborhoods,married only blacks, could do only manual labor or teach in black institutions. Their job opportunities were severely limited. Their whiteness did not protect them from racial discrimination at all. I find it rather annoying to hear whites asking how blacks are to be identified. White people had no trouble identifying blacks before. Children whose parents looked white were identified as black if those parents were known to have black ancestors.
I grow weary of hearing white people talk about the Irish and their problems in this country. No Irish or any other white immigrant would have wanted to change places with the black slave or the blacks who were living under Jim Crow laws. How many whites have been lynched? Please tell me. When my parents drove south to see their relatives, they had to drive continuously because there was no place for them to sleep, no bathrooms to allow their children to relieve themselves. They had to pull off to the side of the road and duck into some woods. What white person had to do that. African Americans were given the right to vote but in the south and other parts of the country,we could not exercise that right. A special civil rights act had to be passed to ensure the African American right to vote. Was such an act needed for the white immigrant?Black people in many parts of this country couldn't even go to the library and were subject to arrest if they dared to insist on getting a card.

We need more honesty in our discussions on race. The fact of the matter is that every white immigrant to this country including indentured servants had it better than the blacks. I cannot understand why people wish to deny this fact. Blacks are still suffering today from the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

[MrsMatt]

97. I'm talking about today

Reparations that would occur now - race is not nearly the issue it was even 20 years ago (and I do know it is an issue today; it's just not as big of one).

I grew up in a very homogenous community; and I admit that I didn't have much contact with African American during that time. I don't have a complete sense of what the African American community went through during that time; I can only base my opinion on my own experience and my own reading of history. And there was a terrible injustice done - I don't deny that. There are many injustices that occur in this world and some we can recitify to the benefit of those who suffered directly from those actions.

My mother was of German ancestry, and she grew up during WWII - she could cite chapter and verse about discrimination in this country.

While it may be fair to consider the idea of reparation, is it fair to penalize those people who have had NO connection to the institution of slavery; based on their race? Where is the fairness in that? Isn't that a form of discrimation?

[Tomee450]

103. Absolutely not.

"While it may be fair to consider the idea of reparation, is it fair to penalize those people who have had NO connection to the institution of slavery; based on their race? Where is the fairness in that? Isn't that a form of discrimination?"

African Americans had nothing to do with the internment of the Japanese during WW11. At that time black people were facing rampant discrimination yet their taxes were not exempt from reparations to the Japanese victims. Black people were not responsible for the mistreatment of the Native Americans but their taxes are part of the payments given to that oppressed group. Your taxes and your parents have always paid for things for which you were not responsible. In the south, black people would struggle to pay their property taxes but got virtually nothing in return for those payments. They could not even go to public parks or beaches. Sometimes the local governments would pave the streets and plant trees in the white sections while doing nothing to improve the black neighborhoods.

African American monies have paid for the services given to others and blacks have also suffered when their loved ones paid the ultimate price when they died to maintain freedom in this country, a freedom denied to the black population. When the black soldiers returned home, they discovered that their sacrifice did not change their circumstances at all. They still were not free,still faced discrimination. It seems only when it is the African Americans who are perceived to be receiving special treatment that suddenly some people become outraged. Billions of foreign aid is going to other populations with barely a peep from the citizens of this country.

[MrsMatt]

107. I'd say we all have paid for the sins of others

in one way or another.

I see your point and I agree to a large extent. But, I believe that identifying the appropriate beneficiaries would be a task beyond human comprehension.

Where does one draw the line? How far back do we go? What about those whose ancestry can be traced back to the oppressors (slave owners) - do they get a smaller recompense than others?

The logistics are mind-boggling and unless someone can come up with a viable matrix of who is eligible for what, I just don't see it.

I'd be willing to accept reparations IF there could be a concensus that addresses FAIRNESS of distribution.

We all have experienced varying forms of oppression (and we all believe that our own experiences can trump another's - whether or not such a belief is valid), but until we can agree on what and who is deserving, and to what degree, reparations can't happen without a large group of people feeling screwed. Every human has the innate sense of "what about ME" - I admit that I feel that the suffering of my ancestors (and myself to a certain extent) have a value that hasn't been acknowledged. That feeling has to be assuaged before the reparation issue can be even considered, let alone logically considered.

on edit:
it's way past my bedtime - so if there are any replies, you will need to wait until sometime tomorrow or Sunday for me to read this! Good night!

[Tomee450]

108. I don't see your point.

African American were brought here as slaves;their sole purpose was to serve others. They had no lives of their own and could be bought and sold at will. Their family members were taken away never to be seen again in most cases. How does your family's suffering equate to that? Most white immigrants came here voluntarily, they were not kidnapped. Yes there was discrimination experienced by some immigrants but they never had the horrible experiences of the black slave or of the blacks living under Jim Crow. In fact, some of the immigrants joined in the horrific treatment of African Americans. They became just as hateful as other citizens. During the Civil War blacks in New York city were hanged and many of their businesses burned to the ground because immigrants thought they would be conscripted. Most of the perpetrators were Irish. In various cities of the North immigrants have denied black people the opportunity to obtain public employment. In a city like New York, one would think their would be a substantial number of black firemen and policemen. The truth is that the majority of employee are white. African Americans had to go to court to overturn rampant discrimination in those departments.

Most immigrants after being here a few years were allowed to integrate into this society. Blacks were denied that opportunity and such integration has not been achieved even to this day. Blacks were confined to ghettos where life was very difficult.

As for your comment about blacks who have ancestors who are slave owners, so what? That ancestry did not change anything. Those people are/were considered black and were treated just like every other black. They were considered inferior.

As I said earlier, no immigrant, would have wanted to change places with the black man.

[FudgeOff]

118. You make a good argument, but

could you please expand on "Blacks are still suffering today from the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow." How are blacks still suffering? I mean no disrespect, I am simply interested in your opinion.

[Taverner]

96. I understand where you come from

I'm for reparations btw...

I agree it will be tough handing them out - and I'm not sure how it would be done.

Personally I'm in favor of setting up something like the GI Bill for African Americans - go to school ANYWHERE

We pay books, tuition, etc. Do this for 1 generation, and although it will only be a drop in the bucket, it will at least help to reverse the wounds from slavery.

Keep in mind this would be letting us White people off easily...

[number6]

86. Apologies and reparations.

to both the Africans and the Natives.

[Taverner]

88. Yes - and reparations

It was a holocaust, plain and simple.

[stavka]

98. I think they should appologize for Elvis

Elvis has somehow been positively associated with blacks...

[FredScuttle]

99. A national apology and reparations for every living descendant of slaves

It is never too late to do the right thing...after slavery, the reconstruction sell-out, Jim Crow, the Klan operating as a quasi-law enforcement entity, lynchings, bombings, terrorism, job discrimination, housing discrimination, unequal standards in education opportunities, etc., it is a start.

As for funding, the US Government has enjoyed 200+ years of profits off the back of black folks, from the days of slave labor up to the modern-day cuts in federal funds for predominately black urban communities...it's payback time.

[-..__...]

104. Ummmm, no.

Exactly when did the "United States of America" embrace slavery?

[Terran]

110. Some time around 1776.

Are you saying the US has no responsibility because we had slavery here before we became an independent nation? That's just ludicrous.

[Cheswick2.0]

116. sure, just as soon as all men apologize to women for keeping them

physically and legally subjegated for all of history. I want reparations too. A cool million aught to do it.

[troublemaker]

119. No. What would it mean?

A nation can properly apologize to another nation as one abstract entity to another but in general I'm against any personification of the government.

I don't like corporations acting as individual artificial people and I'm not crazy about governments doing that either. Governmental apologies just encourage the neurotic attitude that one has a relationship with the government similar to having a relationship with Jesus or one's parents or friends.

The government is a machine and 'the nation' is just an average. I wouldn't want an apology from a machine or an average--what would it mean?

I know many governments have offered all sorts of apologies for all sorts of things, but that precedent doesn't make it a good thing.