Reagan's Homophobia Killed My Friends

[Stephanie]

That's the reason many of us who actually remember the 80's have no patience for this pageantry.

While WE were grieving Reagan was silent.

They remember Reagan.

I remember Michael, and Carlos, and Tim, and Greg, and Larry, and Daniel.

Who are you remembering this week?

[JI7]

1. it might have not been homophobia

remember, he didn't do anything to help homeless, the mentally ill, minorities and so many others. remember he turned on the unions which endorsed him ? and the thing with ketchup being a vegetable in regards to providing meals for children.

[daveskilt]

3. it was more nonrichwhiteheteroaphobia

[LondonAmerican]

2. Who I remember

Charles, William, David, Robert. Mitch. And almost all the guys I used to hang out with in the Lower East Side from 1980-89.

I left NYC in 1989 because pretty much everyone I knew was dead and I couldn't stand the feeling that everything, every place I went, reminded me of them and they were not there.

Reagan's response to AIDS at the time made me hate him and all of his political cronies -- many of whom made political hay off of other people's tragedy. But Reagan didn't kill them though. A virus did.

It would have been much easier if we could blame one man instead of what we are up against.

[msmcghee]

11. Like many things in the life . .

. . there are many intertwined reasons. Still, change occurs and progress is made because creative people patiently deconstruct the barriers to the solutions of the problems facing humanity.

Is GWB president today because of a corrupt Supreme Court, the systematic disenfranchisement of Florida's black voters, the absentee military ballots that were sent in late with no signature but still counted, because Gore lost his own state of Tennessee - or any of the hundreds of other possible factors?

They all were partially the cause or explanation. And they all need to be addressed if we are to win this time.

To say that a virus caused the death of your friends, not Reagan, is simplistic and pedantic. There was a possibility of providing funds to work toward a cure and slow down the virus. All it took was political will and compassion. Instead Reagan chose to be vindictive and petty and political.

As a "point source" cause of the deaths of thousands of gays in the 80's, his policy would have done the most to save the most lives - or, as happened, cause the most deaths. Accordingly, he deserves a very large amount of the blame for your friends' deaths.

[Cheswick2.0]

71. take your "simple and pedantic" and sit on it

Reagan should have done something to address the crisis. A virus killed my friends. Most of those who have died of it had it long before it was even called Gay cancer or GRID. In twenty years we still don't have a cure. People are still contacting it and they are still dying.

Reagan was wrong to do what he did. He didn't kill my friends, though he did abandon them. Perhaps some of them might have lived longer had research started sooner.

I know people who are still having unprotected sex with multiple partners. Many of them will catch aids or some other STD. Is Reagan responsible for that too?

I am not saying he isn't to blame for being an asshole. I am saying we are as sick and hateful as FR when we take pleasure in some of the things that have been said on this board over the last several days.

[nostamj]

15. i don't think anyone is suggesting that "Reagan killed them"

his INACTION, not his ACTION was the problem.

aggressive education about transmission could have greatly reduced the spread.

[Cheswick2.0]

4. I actually remember the 80, 70 and 60s

I too lost many friends to AIDS. Most of my friends died in the 90s. I don't think that excuses the vicious ugly atmosphere on DU during the last few days. Some of the comments here have been every bit as ugly and ignorant as anything I have ever read on FR.

Do you think your dead friends would have been comforted or proud of what has been said here about Reagan and his wife? Your friends and my friends suffered, they knew suffering in a way neither your nor I can understand. You cheapen their memory by enjoying the suffering of others.

[Stephanie]

5. I don't accept this deification of Reagan

Why do you defend him?

[Cheswick2.0]

68. How does attacking him change anything now?

How does spewing a lot of hateful invective at his widow change anything? How is hating Nancy Reagan and glorying in her pain productive? Why do you defend that?

[dennis4868]

127. Because Nancy....

obviously had a huge impact on the government in the 80s....that is now a fact....and she did not give a damn about AIDS either....dhr only cared about herself!

[terrya]

7. The Reagan Administration and AIDS was "willful negligence"

The plain fact was, in the first years of the AIDS epidemic, it was gay males who were at risk with this horrible disease. And the fact of the matter was that the Reagan White House just didn't care. It was the loudest silence imaginable. And, on the few occasions someone sypathetic to the Reagan White House said something, it was Jerry Fawell and Pat Buchanan who made the hateful comments about AIDS being God's retribution on homosexuals.

If it were male heterosexuals who were susceptable to AIDS at the onset, you bet the Reagan White House and their supporters would have been singing a different tune.

Silence = Death. The legacy of Ronald Reagan and AIDS.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

22. Didn't even say the word "AIDS" publicly until 1987 even though

the CDC brought it to his attention in 1981.

'Nuff said.

[Cheswick2.0]

72. Oh please don't lecture... I have been there too

I know all about Reagan and what he did and didn't do.
I simply fail to see what spewing a lot of juvenile hatred towards a dead person and his widow does to change anything.
Some people here are sounding more and more like that "God hates fags" guy.

[crossroads]

97. Look at the legacy of Reagan, had he done *something* ...

there may have been a cure by now! I had to have 3 pints of blood STAT in surgery in 2002, and was told that no matter how well they tested the blood to make sure it is AIDS free, there is still a chance I may yet contact this dread disease in the future... no testing is perfect... it is not something I let worry me, but ya just never know, you can never know what lies in store for you... :shrug:

[terrya]

6. Scott, the first man I came out to...and the first man I loved.

Died of AIDS in 1985.

Silence = Death.

[quinnox]

8. Huh?

So if Reagan was homophobic that means he is responsible for people who got Aids and died from it? Tortured logic.

[Stephanie]

9. Read the article

http://www.zmag.org/ZMagSite/Jan2004/bronski0104.html

[Darth_Kitten]

10. No....

But as a supposed "leader" he eventually ignored and belittled the pain of so many americans during what became a global epidemic.

People are within their rights not to have too much sympathy for the loss of this man, it's that's what they choose.

[quinnox]

12. It just reminds me of what

a lot of the right wingers do with Clinton, blame 9/11 on him and everything else.

I don't think it makes sense to take an complex issue like Aids and throw the blame on Reagan just because he was a conservative President.

[Stephanie]

14. You don't know the history

Did you read the article?

[quinnox]

16. Yea

I read it. And in the article it says they don't believe Reagan was anti-gay, that instead he was ignorant about Aids.

I think there was a lot of confusion about the disease for a long time when it first appeared, and then medical research eventually made it clear what they were dealing with after years.

[nostamj]

19. "after years" ???

please. that's just nonsense. I was at the epicenter of research and reporting on AIDS. Larry Kramer, the birth of ACT-UP, GMHC, etc.

start with "AND THE BAND PLAYED ON" and let us know about that 'after years' and 'a lot of confusion' stuff.

one thing was very clear: sick queers didn't raise an eyebrow at the national level at the time when some action could have been taken to education and slow the spread.

[quinnox]

21. I'm not an expert on the history of Aids

I'll agree that more could have been done, but from what I remember Aids really didn't have a good understanding of it until after the Reagan years or near the end of his term.

[nostamj]

26. then, your opinion is grossly uninformed

GROSSLY uninformed. they knew how it was transmitted EARLY in the epidemic. and they COULD have acted to educate then.

they just didn't care about fags and junkies. and that's a FACT.

[Liberal Veteran]

90. That was mostly due to the fact there was no leadership on the issue.

Believe me. By the end of his first term, even without his leadership, we had a working HIV test.

There was far, far too much that could have been done early on.

Indeed, it was Hollywood and the gay community who did more than the lion's share of bringing this issue to the forefront of America's conscience.

[St. Jarvitude]

132. Don't forget Magic Johnson

A lot of Americans thought that HIV was something only 'fags and junkies' caught until Magic announced he had tested positive. He opened the minds of millions of ignorant Americans - unfortunately, there are still far too many (one is too many) homophobic asswipes who still think that AIDS is their God's (not mine dammit!) way of 'purging the fags.'

[Stephanie]

20. Huh?

THIS is what's in the article:

The Reagan administration’s reaction to AIDS is complex and goes far beyond Reagan’s refusal to speak out about the epidemic. A great deal of his power base was born-again Christian Republican conservatives who embraced a reactionary social agenda that included a virulent, demonizing homophobia. In the media, people like Reverends Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell portrayed gay people as diseased sinners and promoted the idea that AIDS was a punishment from God and that the gay rights movement had to be stopped. In the Republican Party, zealous right-wingers, such as Representative William Dannenmeyer (CA) and Senator Jesse Helms (R-NC), hammered home this same message. In the Reagan White House, people such as Secretary of Education William Bennett and Gary Bauer, his chief domestic advisor, worked to enact it in the Adminis- tration’s policies.

In practical terms this meant AIDS research was chronically underfunded. When doctors at the Centers for Disease Control and the National Institute for Health asked for more funding for their work on AIDS, they were routinely denied it. Between June 1981 and May 1982, the CDC spent less than $1 million on AIDS, but $9 million on Legionnaire’s Disease. At that point over 1,000 of the 2,000 AIDS cases reported resulted in death; there were fewer than 50 deaths from Legionnaire’s Disease. This drastic lack of funding would continue through the Reagan years.

When health and support groups in the gay community instigated education and prevention programs, they were denied federal funding. In October 1987 Jesse Helms amended a federal appropriation bill that prohibited AIDS education efforts that “encourage or promoted homosexual activity”(that is, tell gay men how to have safe sex).

<snip>

Throughout all of this Ronald Reagan did nothing. When Rock Hudson, a friend and colleague of the Reagan’s, was diagnosed and died in 1985 (one of the 20,740 cases reported that year), Reagan still did not speak out. When family friend William F. Buckley, in a March 18, 1986 New York Times article, called for mandatory testing of HIV and said that HIV+ gay men should have this information forcibly tattooed on their buttocks (and IV drug users on their arms), Reagan said nothing. In 1986 (after five years of complete silence) when Surgeon General C. Everett Koop released a report calling for AIDS education in schools, Bennett and Bauer did everything possible to undercut and prevent funding for Koop’s too-little too-late initiative. By the end of 1986, 37,061 AIDS cases had been reported; 16,301 people had died.

[quinnox]

23. I misread part of it

Anyway, the article is an opinion piece obviously.

I have to agree to disagree about Reagan's homophobia (which also is not truly known really, unless you knew the man personally)
was the direct cause of Aids deaths.

[Stephanie]

24. It's "AIDS" - not "Aids"

And wilful ignorance is still a crime.

[wellstone_democrat]

41. Those of us who were adults in the 1980s remember

The "three Hs= Haitians, Homosexuals, Heroine addicts" ---sometimes four Haemophiliacs would be included but "the three" were the butt of jokes for their "lifestyles" which would be openly laughed at. I recall being at a DC poltical dinner where people joked about "deathstyles" in 1987. Look through the newspapers at the time, snide jokes reported from DC political functions about the homeless and homosexuals. Its hardly a secret unless you only know about the last decade of politics.

It isn't opinion, the man refused. An epidemic was killing Americans. It had only imperfectly understood etiology and yet the government refused to assist the stricken. Read my friend Randy's "The Band Played on" (others have mentioned it here). Look at his reply to Elizabeth Glaser in her appeal for pediatric Aids research funding.

It was a very disturbing time even for those not directly effected. Its even more disturbing to see it whitewashed now in a forum like this.

[oldcoot]

32. The difference between 9/11 and AIDS

Blaming 9/11 on Clinton is a tactic used by intellectually dishonest conservatives to deflect blame from their beloved leader. Obviously, Clinton does not deserve blame for 9/11 because he was not even the president of the United States during the terrorist attacks. Blaming Clinton for the 9/11 attacks would be the same as blaming Daddy Bush for the first World Trade Center attacks that occurred early during Clinton's term.

Moreover, Clinton did take action to fight terrorism during his term. He actually did try to get Osama bin Laden and he did favor stronger anti-terrorism legislation. Members of the Clinton administration even warned the Bush administration about the dangers of Al Qaeda. While one can argue that Clinton did not do enough to fight terrorism, one can not say that Clinton did nothing to fight terrorism.

One difference between those individuals who blame the Reagan for not doing enough to fight AIDS and those who blame Clinton for the 9/11 terrorist attacks is that we are not blaming Reagan for something that happened during a later president's term. The first reported cases of AIDS in the United States were reported during Reagan's first term. The fact that doctors were reporting a new deadly disease should have concerned the Reagan administration. Reagan at least should have started funding research efforts and approached Congress about additional funding during the early years.

Unfortunately, the Reagan administration decided to ignore this disease because many people associated it with homosexuality and he was catering to religious conservatives who foolishly viewed AIDS as an appropriate punishment for the "sin" of homosexuality. Indeed, one of the only members of the Reagan administration who really showed an interest in fighting this epidemic was Surgeon General C. Everett Koop who advocated providing public school students with a comprehensive sex education programs. There is simply no excuse for allowing religious bigots to determine public health policy.

[quinnox]

34. thanks for the reply

This is logic that I can agree with.

[nostamj]

13. he was responsible for an utter failure of LEADERSHIP

in the face of a nation (and international) health crisis.

if the early victims of a spreading virus had been white newborns, do you think there would have been such complete INACTION?

of course not.

I was working for THE gay newspaper in NYC when AIDS was still called GRIDS (Gay-Related-Immune Deficiency Syndrome). I can't count the number of friends and co-workers I lost to it. One thing was clear: we were completely on our own to educate, investigate and agitate.

"tortured logic" hardly.

the deification of a third-rate puppet president requires much more 'tortured logic' than Reagan's complicity in the early spreading of AIDS.

[aquart]

17. Dennis Meiners.

The best friend anyone could ever have.

[Lindsey]

18. I remember John and Larry

two great guys with whom I worked.

[arwalden]

25. Too Many To Count... Too Many To Name

You'd think I was making it up if I started to list names. Eventually I stopped going to funerals... not because I didn't care, but because I just couldn't take it anymore.

-- Allen

[wellstone_democrat]

46. Greg Cable: San Francisco, CA---my cousin

a peach of a guy. Died too young and too terribly.

[ronnykmarshall]

27. Thinking of my brother

and knowing that he would have it in his heart to forgive Reagan. Of course he'd want his $100 back that he gave to RR's campaign in 1980. Hopefully Ron's taking my bro out for a big dinner and come cocktails right now.

[Duncan Grant]

28. Would you look at the Reagan apologists here in this thread!

My, oh my. The winners do indeed write history.

The truth is that the Reagan administration is responsible for the greatest public health failure in the history of our nation. It's not a big stretch for Stephanie to say 'Reagan's homophobia killed my friends.'

Reagan did less than nothing about HIV, AIDS and HIV/AIDS discrimination. Please don't take my word for it, read: "And the Band Played On" by Randy Shilts (rent the DVD for the Cliff notes version). Imagine for just a moment that white male heterosexual x-tians were suddenly dying of mysterious and rare diseases. Would Reagan have hesitated to respond to this public health crisis? We'll never know, but I'd bet my life that the answer would be an unprecedented response - supported by the full power and resources of the Reagan administration.

Reagan:

-silent on AIDS for 6 years
-60,000 die during his 2 terms in office (an outrage!)
-Administration officials effectively 'silence' C. Everett Koop,
Surgeon General of the United States
-silent when right wing x-tians extremists vilify gay men and
inflame AIDS panic
-...and there's more.

I've lived in San Francisco for 20 years. My first lover died in my arms. We were together 6 years - I was 30 years old, he was 33. I can't remember all the people that I was at least 'marginally' connected to who have died of AIDS.

Please don't defend Ronald Reagan's response to HIV/AIDS - it offends me. I'll trust my first hand experience of the Reagan years rather than the apologists here at DU (or those who choose to blame the victims).

edit: personal detail...

[beachman]

58. let's be fair

This an extremely emotional issue, but to lay the blame at Reagan's feet for not doing more also dodges some responsibility of the interaction of some activists and the medical community.

In hindsight, there should have been a more aggressive effort to contain the disease, but no one wanted that. It would have been a major invasion of privacy and possibly leading to quarantining AIDs sufferers, and people were terrified of that prospect.

Had that occurred though, at least until some effective treatment arose, the disease could have been stopped in it's tracks.

Perhaps this is one issue where a little non-partisan foresight on everyone's part could have prevented thousands of deaths.

Maybe I should have been silent, but this sentiment was first expressed to me by a doctor at the time that thought the way it all played out was very tragic. I can understand the concern of activists who feared not protecting the identity of those with AIDs, and reliance on traditional methods of quarantining and such could have been like giving the sheep into the hands of the wolf for protection, but at the same time, in retrospect, early on, we should have made more an effort to contain the disease.

[Duncan Grant]

79. See post #56, Hell Hath No Fury, n/t

[KittyWampus]

29. If You're Referencing AIDS- Then AIDS Killed Several Of My Friends

in the 80's. Not Reagan, who did nothing to inform the public.

AIDS contacted while having one night stands.

And even today, knowing about the risks, gay men are engaging in promiscuous behavior.

Reagan's inaction may have contributed to the crises.... but my friends died as a result of a virus that they would not have come in contact with if they had been more responsible.

Edit: AIDS is now a fact of life. For whatever reason it is now part of our reality.

All our loved ones who died from AIDS did not die in vain.

[nostamj]

31. BLAME THE GAYS! BLAME THE GAYS!

your post makes me sick.

"one night stands" "even today" "more responsible" :puke:

and is not worthy of further response.

[KittyWampus]

33. Blame The Gays? Bizarro

My dear friend, it's more like taking responsiblity for ones own decisions and the consequences OFTEN UNFORSEEN thereof.

It's difficult, but it's a sign of maturity.

[nostamj]

36. "my DEAR friend" |

GAY people w/o an iota of help from any government began MASSIVE education programs to protect their community in the earliest days of the epidemic. (as I said, I was there)

there had never been a lethal, untreatable STD at the time AIDS surfaced.

please forgive the victims for not being clairvoyant.

[KittyWampus]

38. No SHIT. Tell Me Something I Don't Know

again, while you decide to cling to VICTIMHOOD... others of us do NOT.

[dsc]

123. a minor quibble

There had been some fatal untreatable STDs but not since the advent of penicillin. Both Gonerrea and Syphalis were fatal and non treatable before the advent of penicillin.

[Duncan Grant]

35. Unbelievable!

<... but my friends died as a result of a virus that they would not have come in contact with if they had been more responsible.>

My God. Unbelievable.

1) A bunch of swimmers decide to swim. Some drown. Irresponsible swimmers.

2) All dogs have fleas. Fluffy is a dog. Therefore; Fluffy has fleas.

3) Teenage girl has sex. Girl gets pregnant. Irresponsible girl.
(not irresponsible boy, btw)

4) Guns don't kill people. People kill people.

I am *so* done here...

[KittyWampus]

37. Once Again, Human Beings Can Either Take RESPONSIBILITY

for their behavior or NOT. And yes, sometimes there are UNFORSEEM circumstances.

But apparently many people desperately need to cling to the VICTIMHOOD status.

Many on the Left probably like to yowl about Authoritarianism but are perfectly happy to embrace the notion that OTHERS are responsible for our Lives.

[Duncan Grant]

39. Bullshit.

Your post says that gay men brought this upon themselves.

If a public health crisis like AIDS were to initially effect heterosexuals exclusively - the federal government would launch a response unequaled by anything short of the Apollo program.

VICTIMHOOD indeed. How dare you.

[KittyWampus]

40. PEOPLE (Gay or NOT) Make Decisions

and those decisions lead to consequences.

Sometimes we know and can forsee potential risks.

Sometimes we CAN'T.

You can choose to take the simple path and blame the circumstances.

You can choose to take the harder path and ACCEPT RESPONSIBILTY for what happens to oneself in Life.

[Duncan Grant]

44. Your posts haven't addressed a public health crisis...

but rather insist on blaming the victims.

Let me ask it this way:

1) A businesswomen travels to Asia BEFORE the risk of SARS was made known. She unknowingly contracts SARS and dies. Is she responsible for her own death? According to your responsibility argument - YES, she is.

2) A group of children play outdoors in Southern California. Three of them received mosquito bites and are exposed to West Nile Virus - 1 dies. Who's responsible? The child? The parent?

Now, if the parent is responsible, should we arrest them for child endangerment, involuntary manslaughter, or murder. If the child is responsible - was it suicide?

3) An old lady walks to the bank with her social security check. She is mugged and severely beaten. Silly old lady - she should have set up direct deposit!

You write:
<You can choose to take the harder path and ACCEPT RESPONSIBILTY for what happens to oneself in Life.> I'll be sure to pass that on to all the non-white people here in America and the world. :thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

60. I'm Emphatically NOT "Blaming" Anyone & Completely Reject Victimhood.

And I like how you use the emotionally laden scenario of the little old lady.

She definately has a legal case, doesn't she?

But then Granny decided where and when she was going that day. For whatever reason her Karma lead her to go to the bank and be robbed. Why? That's something that Granny will have to figure out either in this incarnation or the next.

But then look at Gramps! He was going to go the same bank, at the same time and on the same day. But Gramps decided he'd call his little granddaughter who contracted malaria instead.

Human beings again can either live their lives assigning guilt and feeling victimized

OR

they can see Life and the Universe as ULTIMATELY BENEFICIAL no matter WHAT happens.

Cause you know what?

Granny got mugged, got taken to a hospital where she met a doctor who asked her out to dinner and dance and THEY ENDED UP MARRIED.

Funny how that is... sometimes the things that are traumatic at the time later, upon reflection, lead to something wonderful.

[wellstone_democrat]

45. Wow, then shut down the CDC and the NIH

any government medical research must be feeding this culture of "victimhood" right?

The Reagan Administration refused to address an epidemic in the United States. They jumped on the few "Legionnaire's Disease" pneumonia cases in a frenzy---those bad men who went to a convention and did God only knows what!!!! Oh, yeah, no one asked what "risky" behavior they were involved with. But, bring out all the guns and find out the cause of that illness ASAP.

Viruses and bacteria don't much care what moral behavior the infected is involved with it simply infects. We fund research into diseases that affect the *public health*---with this one, without knowledge of exactly what they had and how far it would go, they refused, they ridiculed the victims and Reagan used to pretend he didn't hear the questions and call on someone else.

Its a disease, its not a sin.

[Duncan Grant]

50. Legionnaire's Disease

Thank you for reminding me of that, wellstone_democrat! You make this point about 'personal responsibility' and public health better than I have. I salute you!

:hi: :thumbsup:

[KittyWampus]

57. Who Said Anything About "Sin" Or "Morality"?

YOU DID.

It was in NO WAY implied in any of my posts.

You throw a rubber ball against the wall and it bounce back at you and may very well hit you in the head if you are not paying attention.

[Sapphocrat]

96. Thanks for reminding me, wellstone_democrat...

"It's a disease, not a sin" reminds me of the moribund "dry moral model" of alcoholism, which states that alcoholism is a "moral failing," not a disease -- and God's punishment for drinking.

The same model states that alcoholism occurs because drinking occurs; thus, following that "logic," there would be no AIDS if gay men just stopped having sex -- which requires deliberate denial of the fact that that virii do not discriminate (and deliberate denial of the rates of HIV infection among non-gay groups).

Makes you wonder what sort of "moral failing" the "blame the gays" crowd credits for the existence of Tay-Sachs disease and sickle-cell anemia, doesn't it?

And: GREAT catch on Legionnaire's! :thumbsup:

[nostamj]

43. "VICTIMHOOD indeed. How dare you"

EXACTLY!

I won't answer that poster anymore. I was an ACTIVIST, not a VICTIM.

and he/she is just sickening.

[Duncan Grant]

48. You should see the steam jetting out of my ears.

Nauseating argument, isn't it?

You and I should remember that the next time we get beaten to death by some asshole in Wyoming - that it was our own fault. After all, we're responsible for choosing to be proud, out, GLBT people.

Just comes with the territory, don't you think? :eyes:

<sarcasm/off>

:hi: nostamj! Glad you are here today!

[nostamj]

49. and you'll notice

that he/she didn't try to argue my point:

THERE HAD NEVER BEEN A LETHAL STD

I think he/she is a 'good liberal' until the idea of buttsex comes into his/her mind... then... <snap!>

well...

good to have your input here too. as I said, I won't reply to IT any further...

[Duncan Grant]

51. I noticed.

Before you go...wellstone_democrat makes a salient point about Legionnaire's Disease above. I forgot about that episode in public health.

[nostamj]

52. check out this from Stephanie's post #20

Between June 1981 and May 1982, the CDC spent less than $1 million on AIDS, but $9 million on Legionnaire’s Disease. At that point over 1,000 of the 2,000 AIDS cases reported resulted in death; there were fewer than 50 deaths from Legionnaire’s Disease. This drastic lack of funding would continue through the Reagan years.

[wellstone_democrat]

55. LD was "addressed" immediately

absolutely *immediately*

And, that isn't "opinion" that is one of those "stupid facts" that King Reagan hated so much.

[KittyWampus]

61. Hmmmm, I Lived With Two Gay Adult Men For 8 Years

and live in a community that has a large, organized Gay Community. Many of whose members I've worked and played with.

And it's interesting that you bring up STD's.

Because the fact that someone would have promiscous and unprotected sex GAY OR STRAIGHT with the presence of STD's, LETHAL OR NON-LETHAL emphasises that some people are willing to take risks.

But risks or no risks.,... seen or unforseen....

People can either take responsibilty for every aspect of their lives or not.

[terrya]

53. You know, I actually heard some gay people say that Matthew Shepard...

was partly to blame for his death. Because he went out of the bar with Henderson and McKinney.

Seriously. It was at a gay message board I used to frequent...the Advocate Idea Exchange board. I wanted to puke when I saw that.

You're absolutely right, sweetie.

:hug;

[KittyWampus]

69. Funny, People Are Obsessed With Assigning "Blame" & "Guilt"

Or, as the case on this thread, reading it into words where it doesn't exist.

And apparently, the need to demonize someone, twist their words and then call them "It" and "Asshole" happens on both the Left and the Right.

[Duncan Grant]

113. amazing, isn't it?

:hi: :hi: :hi:

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sapphocrat]

62. A lot of people agree with you, cryingshame...

"AIDS will cease when the participants stop their behavior."

"In the end, everyone knew that (a) the odds of getting AIDS if you lead a clean life were extremely small, and (b) if those that were at risk of getting AIDS wouldn't do anything to help themselves then there really wasn't a moral obligation to help them."

"I also have a feeling that there were and are many 'homosexual activists' who wanted and still want AIDS to spread so they can portray homosexuals as 'victims'."

"Why would AIDS activists want AIDS to go away? Look at the meal ticket they've been given. Along the same lines why would social workers or welfare case workers want their 'clients' to actually become self-sufficient and/or mentally stable? Their job would disappear overnight. Victims produce a lot of jobs for others."

"Now, let me get this straight. It's the responsibility of the POTUS to , let's say, make a public service commercal reminding a homosexual man to be sure to "wrap that rascal" before having anal intercourse with another man??? Sorry, but perpetual victimhood is getting old, real old."

"The homosexual movement wants America to believe that Reagan, not homosexual sodomy - an unnatural, unsanitary sex act - is responsible for the spread of AIDS. Homosexuals want to have their cake and eat it, too; they want to engage in unnatural, unsanitary sex acts, then plunder the federal treasury when they get infected."

Sadly, all of these opinions are shared at:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1151453/posts

Your attitude astounds me. Do you also believe poor people are at fault for having no money? Do you believe a woman who has been raped was just asking for it because she A) was too pretty, B) dressed too provocatively, C) shouldn't have been in that neighborhood alone, D) should have known better than to invite her date into her apartment...?

Truly astounding.

[nostamj]

64. STANDING OVATION!!!! SAPPHOCRAT

since i refuse to respond to that <deleted> <deleted> <deleted> <deleted> <deleted> <deleted><deleted>...

I thank you for nailing IT's pathetic, tortured, HATEFUL postings today.

[KittyWampus]

67. Where Did I Even Begin To Say Anything Close To That?

Basically every reply so far has ascribed a view point that is no wheres NEAR what I posted.

Look back on your life and what you call the "good" stuff and the "bad" stuff all link together into who you are today.

Does it not?

Some decisions were made will fully conscious and some not.

But along every step of the way it was YOU living your life, making your decisions and experiencing the consequences.

And EVERYTHING that happens is to our Benefit. It may take many Lifetimes to figure out HOW. But it's better to live with the notion that the Universe if Beneficial than to see it as our Enemy.

There is nothing about Morality, Guilt, Blame or Vicitimhood in that statement or Philosophy.

And YES, every man woman and child incarnates into whatever body, family and circumstance that is required. We live the Life that is the consequence of our past actions.

[Stephanie]

70. Stop proseletyzing

We are not obliged to accept your "philosophy" and your ideas about reincarnation and a Beneficial Universe. It's completely irrelevant to the topic, which is that Reagan deliberately and viciously refused to do anything about AIDS prevention or treatment until it was too late and the epidemic had spiraled out of control. That was a karmic CRIME.

[KittyWampus]

73. Proseletyzing? And Only Your Viewpoint Is Valid? What Arrogance!

Did I say Reagan's silence didn't contribute to the crisis?
Did I suggest my friends who contracted HIV "deserved" it?

I responded to your thread title... which suggested people died directly because of Reagan's homophobia.

My observation was that the people I KNEW PERSONALLY weren't victims, didn't die for nothing and eventually succumbed to a disease that they contracted for some reason that only they can know.

I choose to believe there is Meaning in the things that happen to us in Life.

It's too bad you want to live your life in fear of the Universe and play the Judeo-Christian game of "Blame, Guilt and Punishment".

Especially since you see so clearly what happened with Reagan and AIDS.

Ironic.

[Sapphocrat]

77. Thanks for pointing that out, Stephanie...

I meant to mention it as well: I find it incredulous that the rest of us are mandated to accept a belief in reincarnation -- or anything else -- as fact, else we simply have it all wrong.

What puzzles me is an expression of belief in karma and reincarnation, whilst displaying a sig line containing a verse from the Bible. Last time I checked, reincarnation wasn't compatible with Christianity.

And I speak as a non-Christian who does believe in karma. But far be it from me to demand that anyone else believe as I do -- or to insist that a man who gets killed by a piano falling out of a window is somehow at "fault" for his own demise. (That is much closer to Scientology, and "est" -- and the "falling piano" scenario is lifted directly from a little speech by a Scientologist who tried to snare me into that school of belief: "How can it be the man's fault?" "Well, he was THERE, wasn't he?!")

Oh, well, whatever. If nothing else, it proves that CINOs aren't the only ones who insist on basing their opinions on a hybrid form of "faith."

[Sapphocrat]

74. Where did you even begin to say anything close to that?

Um, well, gee, how about everywhere, for starters?


I quoted a freeper, who wrote:

"AIDS will cease when the participants stop their behavior."

Because you wrote:

...the fact that someone would have promiscous and unprotected sex GAY OR STRAIGHT with the presence of STD's, LETHAL OR NON-LETHAL emphasises that some people are willing to take risks.

I quoted a freeper, who wrote:

"Now, let me get this straight. It's the responsibility of the POTUS to , let's say, make a public service commercal reminding a homosexual man to be sure to "wrap that rascal" before having anal intercourse with another man???"

Because you wrote:

If You're Referencing AIDS- Then AIDS Killed Several Of My Friends ... in the 80's. Not Reagan, who did nothing to inform the public.

I quoted several freepers who expressed the same point about "victimhood":

"Sorry, but perpetual victimhood is getting old, real old."

"I also have a feeling that there were and are many 'homosexual activists' who wanted and still want AIDS to spread so they can portray homosexuals as 'victims'."

Because you wrote:

again, while you decide to cling to VICTIMHOOD... others of us do NOT. ...

But apparently many people desperately need to cling to the VICTIMHOOD status.

I quoted a freeper, who wrote:

"The homosexual movement wants America to believe that Reagan, not homosexual sodomy - an unnatural, unsanitary sex act - is responsible for the spread of AIDS. Homosexuals want to have their cake and eat it, too; they want to engage in unnatural, unsanitary sex acts, then plunder the federal treasury when they get infected."

Because you wrote:

AIDS contacted while having one night stands.

And even today, knowing about the risks, gay men are engaging in promiscuous behavior.

Reagan's inaction may have contributed to the crises.... but my friends died as a result of a virus that they would not have come in contact with if they had been more responsible.

And where you wrote:

Many on the Left probably like to yowl about Authoritarianism but are perfectly happy to embrace the notion that OTHERS are responsible for our Lives.

...I should have quoted the freeper who wrote:

One rather interesting facet of liberalism is that it imparts nobility to victimhood. ...

The notion that it is better to have problems and blame someone else for them, than not to have the problems in the first place, seems bizarre, but it seems to have infected a lot of people in a lot of ways.

Next, I wrote:

Your attitude astounds me. Do you also believe poor people are at fault for having no money? Do you believe a woman who has been raped was just asking for it because she A) was too pretty, B) dressed too provocatively, C) shouldn't have been in that neighborhood alone, D) should have known better than to invite her date into her apartment...?

Because you wrote:

I'm Emphatically NOT "Blaming" Anyone & Completely Reject Victimhood. ...

But then Granny decided where and when she was going that day. For whatever reason her Karma lead her to go to the bank and be robbed. Why? That's something that Granny will have to figure out either in this incarnation or the next.

(By the way, you're totally contradicting yourself. You're "emphatically not blaming anyone"? You really need to re-read each message you post before posting another one that contradicts the last.)


Finally, you wrote:

Who Said Anything About "Sin" Or "Morality"?

YOU DID.

It was in NO WAY implied in any of my posts.

You throw a rubber ball against the wall and it bounce back at you and may very well hit you in the head if you are not paying attention.

Which I find it fascinating in light of your sig line on every post:

Except the Lord build the House, they labor in vain that build it. Psalm127:1

Is that itself not a comment on "sin" or "morality"? If that's not an "implication" of judgment, I don't know what is.

I'm not going to waste all day with you. That should be enough to show you exactly why the quotes I cited -- and the many other replies you have recieved -- are hardly a misrepresentation of your position (or, in your words, "no wheres NEAR what (you) posted").

By the way, regarding your own rubber balls: Frankly, considering your aim, I'm surprised you're not out cold.

[Duncan Grant]

75. WOW! Great post, Sapphocrat.

I've been looking for a mentor...interested? :loveya: :hi:

[Sapphocrat]

98. Sweetheart, I'm _always_ interested...

...in anything that concerns you. And flattered, since you don't need a mentor -- you hold your own just brilliantly. :loveya:

[KittyWampus]

78. You're The One Engaging In Far Right Like Behavior

Unable to comprehend nuance. Demonizing others. TAKING WORDS OUT OF CONTEXT.

Taking your own preconcieved notions and filtering my words through your own half-opened eyes.

Either:

"Reagan's Homophobia Killed My Friends"

OR

"Gay People Died Because They Deserve To Die Because Of Their Fithy Immoral Behavior."

Apparently if someone sees things anywhere in between, your lost.

You're Either With Us Or Against Us.

[Sapphocrat]

89. And exactly where did I accuse you of engaging in freeper-like behavior?

I pointed out that a lot of people agree with you. I expressed sadness that those people are freepers. When you challenged me, I reiterated both your posts and those I cited from FR which parallel your posts.

That was supposed to be a wake-up call to you. If you did not understand the point, I will spell it out; my message to you was this: "Do you realize what you are saying? Do you realize that you are expressing opinions dangerously close to those of people diametrically opposed to your stated political position? Seeing how closely your opinions echo theirs, does it not occur to you that you may care to drastically reconsider your position?"

Perhaps I took too great a liberty in assuming you would understand that.

Now, as for "freeper-like behavior":

Did I ever once call you a freeper? Did I ever once accuse you of "engaging in freeper-like behavior"?

As per DU rules:

Do not post personal attacks or engage in name-calling against other members of this discussion board.

I have done neither. You, however, just accused me of "engaging in freeper-like behavior."

If you are going to disagree with someone, please stick to the message rather than the messenger. For example, if someone posts factually incorrect information, it is appropriate to say, "your facts are wrong," but it is not appropriate to say "you are a liar."

I have not called you a freeper, nor accused you of "engaging in freeper-like behavior". I attacked the message -- which is disturbingly similar to posts found on FreeRepublic.com -- but not once did I attack the messenger. You, however, have not bothered to address a single concern of mine, nor clarify your position, nor explain how your posts are different from those I cited. Instead, you accused me of "engaging in freeper-like behavior."

I also never accused you of calling gay people "filthy" or "immoral"; you are taking the freepers' posts out of context, when it is painfully clear that the parallels between your posts and theirs are in no way suggestive that you think we are "filthy" or "immoral." (If you would rather, I could remove all contextual material from the FR posts -- and they would still agree with your posts.)

Do not publicly accuse another member of this message board of being a disruptor, troll, conservative, Republican, or FReeper.

See above.

Do not try to come up with cute ways of skirting around the spirit of this rule.

Pointing out your numerous contradictions and comparing your position to that of others who share your views is not a "cute way" of skirting the rules. It is an illustration of your claim that we are putting words in your mouth. If you cannot recognize the similarities between your words and those which echo you, then that's your problem. It can't be made any clearer than that.

You wrote:

You're Either With Us Or Against Us.

Is this warning to those of us who do not ascribe calamity to karma?

There is nothing preconceived about my notions, regarding either you or your ideas. Frankly, I had little awareness of your existence on DU until now -- and any impression of you I may or may not have now, you have helped me form.

I do hope you will re-read your own posts, and apply your thoughts about "victimhood" and "personal responsibility" where they belong.

[Duncan Grant]

81. Wrong again, you expressed a moral judgment in post #29.

From your post #29:

AIDS contacted while having one night stands.

And even today, knowing about the risks, gay men are engaging in promiscuous behavior.

Reagan's inaction may have contributed to the crises.... but my friends died as a result of a virus that they would not have come in contact with if they had been more responsible.
****************************************************************

And now you want to say:

And EVERYTHING that happens is to our Benefit. It may take many Lifetimes to figure out HOW. But it's better to live with the notion that the Universe if Beneficial than to see it as our Enemy.

There is nothing about Morality, Guilt, Blame or Vicitimhood in that statement or Philosophy.
****************************************************************


I say it's inconsistent to blame, assign guilt, tell others to get over their victimhood and then try to sell me a line about the beneficent universe. :eyes:

[KittyWampus]

82. That Is What Happened. Where Do I Assign Any Kind Of Moral Judgement?

I stated facts empirically. What happened to my three friends.

You are the bringing in a Moralistic Framework.

You are so entrenched in Dualistic Us vs. Them you see it in everything, apparently.

Post Script: while I personally may view promiscuous sex as a waste of one's Life Force and neither desirable or ultimately beneficial I do NOT CALL IT IMMORAL OR DESERVING OF PUNISHMENT!

And Promiscuous Sex is RISKY!

Whether it can cause STD or HIV/AIDS or PREGNANCY or EMOTIONAL TRAUMA.

[scrotim]

120. You'll get nowhere addressing all the shades of grey on this topic, CS.

It's one that brings out the blazing self-righteous hysteric in a lot of people.

I'm a gay man living in one of the gayest cities in the U.S., so I know whereof I speak.

The government didn't do nearly enough when the AIDS crisis first appeared, and could do a lot more now.

At the same time, I agree with you that the individual, once informed, is primarily responsible for his own health. I'm amazed every weekend when I see the boys lining up outside a local bar with an active back room...there are a lot of reasons for the mental/emotional damage that leads guys to repeatedly take that kind of risk, but I can't quite grasp it.

Many delude themselves that AIDS is now just another "chronic, manageable" disease; no big deal. Yeah, right. I see the physical ravages of living with HIV around me every day and I'm determined to not go that route myself.

You don't have to be a monk to avoid AIDS, you just have to respect and care about yourself; which, because of past life trauma, all too many gay men don't.

It's silly when threads like this devolve into black/white shouting matches...I believe ALL the answers are in the areas of gray.

[Misunderestimator]

30. David and David and Steve and Tim and Mark and Tony...

and so many more...

[Cleita]

42. I remember the ones who became homeless and

who subsequently died from neglect and lack of health care.

[kwolf68]

47. The thing that always confused me is

Jesus' worked to heal people, no matter how they got into their respective predicament.

In my view allowing gays to die, "because it was their punishment from God" is such an incredible view of the world I can't comprehend it.

Even back in the 1980s when I was a Republican I could never sign on for the, "oh well...you live like that youre dead too bad"...the entire time that debate raged I just knew that we had to help those people...No, I surely didn't agree with "gay rights" as I understood them, didn't want "gayness" thrusted down my throat on TV and was against gay marriage of any kind, but man...I thought we had to help those people, because "that was the right thing to do."

To see the hate up close and personal was educational. Now I am much more progressive in my views on gay rights and can empathize with people who lost friends, family and loved ones to this horrific disease.

In the end, it was the far-right religious nuttery faction of the Reagan White House that essentially lit the furnaces for another form of genocide. The mocking, ignorance, ignoring, and hatefulness toward the gay community in this nation back in the 1980s is one of the 3 or 4 worst things this nation has ever done (Slavery, Indian Genocide are my top 2) ... and should be an embarassment to anyone who calls themself an American.

I found it hilarious that some of those gay people getting married up in Massachusetts had been together for 9, 15, 21 years...the level of committment was amazing and Newt Gingrich, Rush Limbaugh, and Dan Burton could stand to learn some lessons on committment and loyalty from gay people.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

56. My city...

I live in San Francisco and was here for the AIDS crisis.

I can't tell you how many I know who were taken by that disease, and how many more are friends who are now living with it.

Living in SF given me an unusual, first-hand view of Ronnie's policies.

San Francisco took the brunt when, as Governor, he closed down the state mental hospital system. We saw mentally ill people wandering the streets here, most of them sleeping on the sidewalks in puddles of urine.

How compassionate.

The City had to step in and try to provide services to them. It's something we struggle with as a City to this day.

San Francisco was an epicenter for the victims of the "Communist purge" down in Cenral America. We offered sanctuary and were flooded with refugees trying to escape the death squads and the fighting, and we heard the horror stories. Two of my best friends, both boys at the time, were smuggled here by their families to get them away from the danger. Hector's memories of Reagan was of being attacked in his village by Contras and barely escaping with his life.

And then there was the 80s and AIDS.

God, what a time.

Funerals or memorial services just about every day. Walking skeletons with KS shuffling through the Castro and Polk Street. Death everywhere. AIDS wards at SF General, AIDS walks in the park.

Did Reagan invent AIDS? No. Was he complicit in its spread and the damaged it caused? Absolutely.

His utter lack of leadership and his refusal to view it as the major health threat that was at a time when we KNEW it was big, we KNEW how it was spreading, and we KNEW what needed to be done to prevent it and to take care of those suffering from it.

And Reagan and his administration did DICK for years. For YEARS.

If Reagan didn't start AIDS, or couldn't control personal behavior, just how could he have helped, you ask?


Let's start with funding into understanding, treating and preventing the disease. Much too little, much too late on his part.

Let's start with going before the nation and telling his countrymen that AIDS isn't a punishment from God, but a disease whose victims deserve our support, our compassion, and our understanding. When Princess Diana sat there in an AIDS ward in England and held the hands of a man suffering from AIDS while the cameras clicked away, she changed the world. For that, she will always have my undying gratitude.

Let's start with offering the support services and legal protections HIV/AIDS sufferes needed. Everything that was done for them at the time, everything, was generated by the community around them. The hospices, the meal and pet services, the funding walks, the educational and awareness programs, the needle programs -- these things all grew out of a need that only the community, not the government, responded to.

As I mentioned on another thread about Ronnie and AIDS, my only hope is that from his death will come a karmic penance for his inaction on AIDS, in the form of stem cell research.


As for those "promiscuous" gays, I'm old enough to remember the 70s and the het herpes plague that hit those sexual revolutionaries. I hope folks hold those hets to as high a behavioral standard as they do gay men. :eyes:

[mitchum]

59. Greg, Vinnie, Bill, John, Freddie, Rusty (and I still miss them dearly)

[beachman]

63. what should Reagan/government have done?

This an extremely emotional issue, but to lay the blame at Reagan's feet for not doing more also dodges some responsibility of the interaction of some activists and the medical community.

In hindsight, there should have been a more aggressive effort to contain the disease, but no one wanted that. It would have been a major invasion of privacy and possibly leading to quarantining AIDs sufferers, and people were terrified of that prospect.

Had that occurred though, at least until some effective treatment arose, the disease could have been stopped in it's tracks.

Perhaps this is one issue where a little non-partisan foresight on everyone's part could have prevented thousands of deaths.

Maybe I should have been silent, but this sentiment was first expressed to me by a doctor at the time that thought the way it all played out was very tragic. I can understand the concern of activists who feared not protecting the identity of those with AIDs, and reliance on traditional methods of quarantining and such could have been like giving the sheep into the hands of the wolf for protection, but at the same time, in retrospect, early on, we should have made more an effort to contain the disease.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. There were a hundred things...

short of the type of intervention you're speaking of.

See my post upthread for just a few starters.

[beachman]

66. maybe, but....

The traditional approach to stopping such an infectious disease involved early detection and quarantining of the disease, and this would have worked, but was not done for political reasons. I hate to be harsh, but in this instance, you have to ask who pushed for taking proven, non-political methods off the table in favor of privacy.

Sure, Reagan could have done more, but what we know works and would have worked was taken off the table, and that was incredibly tragic, and the activists pushing for that were not Reagan fans.

[Duncan Grant]

76. You still have time to sign the petition, beachman.

http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/quaranteenHIVAIDS/

A similar sentiment is expressed at this website:
<cut and pasted - verbatim>
How do we stop HIV/AIDS in the USA?

The standard practice of QUARANTINE is applied in public health to prevent the spread of dangerous communicable diseases.

HIV/AIDS causes terrible suffering, pain, sorrow and death. It's incurable and will not likely ever be cured.

And most tragic of all, most such cases are preventable!

Folks that practice high risk and irresponsible behaviours - such as intravenous drug abusers, homosexuals, the sexually promiscuous and adulterers - often end up with the horror of HIV/AIDS.

Now when this monsterous disease was first identified in the USA in the early 1980's - almost exclusively in homosexuals (remember when it was called GRID, ie "Gay Related Immune Deficiency?") - then still a small segment of the US population, we should have acted! Sadly, we did not.

Unfortunately, politics prevented the needed remedy - QUARANTINE! How many more Americans will suffer and die needlessly from HIV/AIDS before we act?

And now that so many people in the USA have HIV/AIDS, is quarantine feasable logistically today? How would such an effort work? Who would make the determination of who is quarantined? And would our already eroded unalienable Rights - given to us by GOD - withstand such a massive national effort?

If you think quarantine is the solution to this terrible problem, consider signing this petition calling for the QUARANTINE of all people with HIV/AIDS in the USA! If you disagree with this option, please share your alternative solutions!

Speak up ladies and gentlemen - many lives are at stake!

Yours For Better Public Health,

Bro' Bob
<end of cut and paste>******************************************

Be sure to check out the homepage at http://www.ourchurch.com/member/r/RobertBaral/

edit: link

[beachman]

84. too late now

In the beginning, it would have worked, and perhaps not a total quarantine, just an agressive attempt to find out who had AIDS and try to prevent it's spread via education, or if necessary, quarantining those with it for a period of time.

I can understand the reluctance, but thousands of lives were at stake, and have since then been lost.

I do think it may have been feasible to do this without a total quarantine, but it would have meant finding out who was likely to be infected and testing them, and educating them about what the consequences of infecting others would be, and hopefully that would have been enough.

[Stephanie]

85. What was necessary was educating EVERYBODY

You don't need to see someone's blood test in order to educate them. You educate EVERYBODY regardless.

[beachman]

86. were people that uneducated about STDs?

I've heard this education thing a lot, but we all knew STDs were around. The key was to let the people who were infected know that this was a fatal thing they were carrying, and this may sound harsh, but to quarantine anyone that knowingly spread it.

There was no way everyone in the nation was going to quit having unprotected sex because of an emerging threat. We all know about it now, but people still behave in dangerous ways.

But when it was small, it could have been stopped.

That was what was important, not trying to educate the whole nation that a new STD was fatal. We know now, and it is still spreading.

[Liberal Veteran]

102. Actually they were uneducated about STDs.

And to a large extent still are.

People thinking "I'm not gay" or "I don't sleep around much" is why so many women have found themselves infected.

Education is still lagging. Mostly due to the uncompassionate Christian lobby that thinks EDUCATION is evil and encourages bad behavior.

Just say no didn't stop the crack epidemic and it's not going to stop the spread of STDs currently going around.

This bullshit about putting all the onus on gay people is ludicrous.

Hepatitis C spread rapidly through the heterosexual community and I don't see ANYONE trying to attach stigmas and blame on people for catching that particular disease.

Too damn many people used HIV as an excuse to point fingers and exercise prejudices and bigotry.

I think we can do better than that.

Let's be honest. Most cases of LUNG CANCER are caused by behavioral factors as well and heart disease, but it is a rare thing to see anyone picketing a person who dies of lung cancer funeral waving a sign saying "God Hates Smokers!".

[nostamj]

103. remember, there had never been a LETHAL

incurable STD before AIDS.

the concept of 'unprotected sex' didn't exist for gay men.

condoms were for birth control and NOT common among gay men.

AIDS changed that quickly though NOT with any help at the federal level... where an aggressive education initiative *could* have made a difference.

[beachman]

108. really?

My experience is that communities and people know about stuff long before any action is taken at the federal level. Word gets around, and fast.

[Liberal Veteran]

112. Do tell us about your experience....

It is certainly true that the gay community took matters into it's own hands when it became fairly conclusive that a deadly virus was making the rounds.

Indeed, a lot of changes in how we now bring drugs to market and get information out is based on that model we created in the 80's.

So what other experience do you have you would care to share with us?

[nostamj]

116. and THAT defends an administration IGNORING

a deadly, growing health crisis, right?

yes, the URBAN GAY COMMUNITIES mobilized FAST and effectively.

but, I'll ask you one last time:

9 MILLION for 50 Legionnaire Disease deaths?

nothing but, grudingly, 1M for AIDS, and that only for testing because some str8s were getting concerned it might just 'cross' into their morally right communities.

somehow, I doubt you were there in the 80s. I doubt you attended many services, I doubt you attended protests, rallies. I doubt you donated time or money to AIDS outreach services...

hmmm???

the LD victims (all 50 of them) got attention. the thousands of AIDS patients got zilch.

you're fine with that.

I hope YOU don't have any friend fighting this today.

I DO.

[beachman]

124. who called for privacy over prevention?

It's disengenious not to face the truth. I was involved in protesting our policies in Latin America, and was not marching for AIDS, that is true, but at the same time, since all of these things have come about, including funding, education, etc,...did that stop AIDS?

No, it did not.

The government was at fault for allowing a medical issue to be politicized and not stepping in with aggressive measures to stop an epidemic using proven measures. Both Reagan and gay activists were at fault for allowing privacy to trump prevention.

[Liberal Veteran]

125. And what would you have done, branded people with a scarlet H?

All forced naming would have done is kept people from getting tested at all.

People's lives were being ruined by the fact they had HIV.

And let's not just talk "gay activists" who at least did something. Let's talk about the two faced self-loathing queens like Roy Cohn (a republican closeted queen) who contracted HIV and decided to keep it secret (he died of "liver cancer") rather than come out and admit the truth.

I think you have no idea how much stigma is attached to this disease. People's lives and livlihoods were ruined just by the specter of AIDS much less the disease.

How fucking dare you advocate quarantine over education, you fascist fuck?

[beachman]

130. how dare you advocate the needless deaths of millions?

That's what could happen. Thousands died, and who knows when it will stop.

Yea, they should have treated it in a non-political manner according to what health officials and experts would normally do.

I realize "lives were ruined" but do you realize how many lives were lost due to not stopping the disease.

And who cares about Roy Cohn? He and Bobby Kennedy both served as McCarthy aides, but both went on from there. I thought Cohn was a big partier type, not exactly a religious conservative bashing gay people or anything.

[Liberal Veteran]

131. You mean the way "lung cancer" is non-political?

And don't you EVEN presume to lecture me on HIV. I contracted HIV in the mid-80's by a cheating partner.

I know more about this disease first hand than you will ever learn in your life second hand.

The whole idea behind anonymous testing was to encourage people to get tested without having their lives ruined by bigots like you who would have probably made the rest of their lives even more miserable.

And do you think the gay community had the power to quarantine people?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

87. Let's see...

1) Manditory sex education in all schools, age appropriate, including the dangers of the disease and how to protect yourself. Protection free and easily available to everyone.

2) Nationwide needle exchange programs. Even better, drug and alchohol treatment.

3) A national dialogue headed by the President, destigmatizing the disease and those who get it, calling on all Americans to step up to the plate and help stop a national health crises.

4) Money, money, and more money.

Anyone else care to take over?


The methods you describe -- "early detection and quarantining" -- to my knowledge have never been used in an outbreak of a sexually transmitted disease. Detection, notification, and treatment have been the standard. Quarantine has historically been used for fast-spreading and/or easily caught infectious diseases. Please tell me of an modern incident in the United States when the carrier of a sexually transmitted disease has been "quarantined"? And unless you are ready to hold an HIV+ person in quarantine for the rest of their natural lives, then that is an essentially useless tool.

[beachman]

88. it's a process

They shut off the investigative process for health officials to determine who had the disease. Once that occured, I don't think quarantining everyone would be necessary, but they could have warned them, and if any knowingly spread the disease, they could have been quarantined to prevent further spread.

If this approach was followed, tens of thousands of lives would have been saved.

[happynewyear]

80. my friends Gary and Tom - DOD Jan. 1981 and 11/80

Both were good friends. It says Gary was 10 years younger than he really was on his death record. Had to cover it up in the early days. Long before "And the Band Played On".

He was one of the early victims, but there was Tom too - I believe he died before Gary - death said to be that of "natural causes". He was too damn healthy for "natural causes". In fact they both were.

And you pig Reagan ignored this problem while AIDS was being spread all over the world. Then your buddy Rock died pf AIDS and then you opened up one eyeball I think. Still, you did nothing.

:(

[Octafish]

83. I remember Ryan White and many, many others.

... all whom a truly compassionate government would have helped. And that band plays on...

U.S. falls short on AIDS funding

by S. Gopikrishna
May 17, 2001

The United Nations recently proposed creating a $7 billion superfund to combat AIDS globally, but the United States has not given the measure the enthusiastic support it deserves.

AIDS has claimed 23 million lives, particularly in developing countries. It has already killed more people than all the major wars in the twentieth century combined. And many of the 36 million people currently infected with AIDS worldwide will die of the disease.

AIDS has spread unchecked in developing countries because these governments lack the financial resources that are critical for treatment and education.

U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan has requested all wealthy countries to make generous contributions toward the superfund. In a trip to Washington last week, he appealed to the Bush administration for increased funding. The money would aid scientific breakthroughs and provide high-quality care to patients living in underdeveloped countries. It would also be used to educate the public about preventive techniques, such as encouraging condom use.

SNIP...

Miserly, too, is the Bush administration's funding for domestic efforts to combat AIDS. Sen. William Frist, R-Tenn., a successful surgeon before joining Congress, believes that more than a billion dollars are needed annually to fight AIDS here at home. But so far, the U.S. government has proposed to allocate only $480 million from this year's $2 trillion budget to funding AIDS-prevention initiatives domestically.

CONTINUED...

http://www.progressive.org/pmpgm1701.html

[crossroads]

92. Thanks for Ryan White... and I lost a very good friend... Jimbo...

So many died because of Reagan's attitude...
:eyes:

[Stephanie]

134. "AIDS has claimed 23 million lives"

For this you can thank Ronald Reagan.

[Whalersfan1]

91. Reagan had...

nothing to do with it...

There is still no cure for AIDS...

[Liberal Veteran]

93. Less would have died if he hadn't dragged his feet...

That's a fact.

Whether there is a cure or not, it's no longer a death sentence.

While he was dragging his feet on the issue, the CDC was having to scrape together resources to study the issue and come up with a working HIV test.

How many people died because Reagan couldn't be bothered to do something about the fact that our blood supply was contaminated until a wealthy Republican socialite contracted HIV through a transfusion?

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Veteran]

95. No he is blamed for not doing his job as a leader.

Look at the abrupt and intense scrutiny and funds given to Legionaires Disease which killed under a 1000.

Then compare his leadership on that with his leadership on HIV where our health community couldn't even convince the powers that be that our blood supply was unsafe.

[nostamj]

104. Legionaires Disease killed 50

50!

and it got MILLIONS

AIDS killed THOUSANDS and got 1M for TESTING. period.

do the math. the Reagan administration ignored a health crisis because the victims meant NOTHING to them.

how many MILLIONS would have gone to research if RICH WHITE MEN were contracting it from their mistresses?

[Liberal Veteran]

118. You won't get any argument from me....

I contracted HIV in mid-80's from a cheating boyfriend (who died in 1990).

I have to look back and wonder if there had been more efforts to educate the public and provide testing (or even funds to create such tests) if this would have happened to me.

[nostamj]

119. i'm so sorry to hear that

one of my *best* friends is poz too. doing well, for years but...

and it could be have been me too so easily.

stay well!

[Duncan Grant]

101. NOT blaming him for NO CURE.

It's not like he tried to avert a public health crisis or anything. :eyes:

I'm blaming him for his complicity. Silent for 6 long years. I guess he deserves some credit for that... <sarcasm/off>

[Stephanie]

135. "intellegence!" <- - - - - - - - - - LOL!

A classic!

[crossroads]

99. I differ with you! He was in a position to do lots...

Did you read the article?
:eyes:

[Duncan Grant]

100. You're right. Reagan had *nothing* to do with it...

because he couldn't be bothered. Silent for 6 years. Silenced his own Surgeon General.

I'd say you are definitely on to something here...

[in_cog_ni_to]

105. Donald. My brother-in law's brother.

May he rest in peace.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[VolcanoJen]

109. LMFAO... Right-Wing SPAMMER!!!!

Hilarious... didn't I just read (rather, tolerate) your lenghty "I've been here for five minutes and I'm leaving because this isn't a free speech website" monologue in another thread?

Cute spamming, Mr. Moran! Proud of yourself? Did ya get your point across???

Laughing my ass off,
Jennifer

[in_cog_ni_to]

110. Free Republic is missing an idiot.......n/t

[Duncan Grant]

111. Pot. Kettle. Black.

<I wonder how many seconds this post will last before I'm banned?>

That's an interesting question. Care to say anything about Ronny Raygun and his miserable failure addressing one of the greatest public health issues ever?

ciao, ciao.

[Liberal Veteran]

114. Are you taking your ball with you?

:eyes:

[nostamj]

117. only on DU would this discussion (which you did NOT contribute to)

happen at all.

don't come back looking for the 'gee, where's viper?' threads...

[davsand]

107. I hope he's burning in his own hell right now.

I'm usually one of the first on here to look for some kind of understanding or at least tolerance, but when it comes to Ronnie Raygun, I have NONE and I seek none.

Yep, HIV is an STD, and yep, it is spread by risky behavior--but you know what? Our "leader" our "great communicator" in 1987, after years of silence, Ronald Reagan finally used the word "AIDS" in public. He sided with his Education Secretary William Bennett and other conservatives who said the Government should not provide sex education information.

On April 2, 1987, Reagan said: "How that information is used must be up to schools and parents, not government. But let's be honest with ourselves, AIDS information can not be what some call 'value neutral.' After all, when it comes to preventing AIDS, don't medicine and morality teach the same lessons."

41,027 persons are dead and 71,176 persons diagnosed with AIDS in the US in 1987.

Let's take a little longer trip down memory lane in that time frame and SEE what the lack of leadership helped to create:



The drug companies were profiteering with AZT, and at that point, the FDA announced they would shorten drug approval times by two years.

June 1, 1987: ACT UP joins other national activist groups in civil disobedience at the White House in Washington, DC. In a display of AIDS-phobia, the police wear rubber gloves while arresting protesters.

June 4, 1987: Northwest Orient Airlines refuses passage to people with AIDS (PWAs)

February 2, 1989: ACT UP protests the FDA's new protocols for the drug DHPG (Gancyclovir), which would deny many current DHPG users access to the drug. Due to this action, the FDA makes DHPG available under "compassionate use" while it reconsiders its protocols.

April 21, 1989: ACT UP/NY joins ACT UP/Atlanta to protest a South Carolina provision that would allow PWAs to be quarantined.

May 2, 1989: Based on the testimony of AIDS activists, the FDA Advisory Committee finally recognizes DHPG and Aerosolized Pentamadine for approval.

June 4-9, 1989: ACT UP demonstrates at the Fifth International Conference on AIDS in Montreal calling for a significant change in AIDS treatment research. ACT UP presents the revolutionary concept of parallel track drug testing, in which drugs already found to be non-toxic are placed in both clinical trials and released simultaneously to patients who do not qualify for the trials.

The next week, ACT UP members are invited to discuss parallel track with Dr. Anthony Fauci, Director of the AIDS program at the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. Days later, Fauci announces parallel track publicly, and the government appoints a panel (including an ACT UP member) to write procedural standards.

That same week, ACT UP meets with Bristol Myers, the manufacturer of the anti-retroviral ddI, to demand ddI's release to patients who can no longer tolerate AZT. DdI is soon released to 5,000 patients.

I'll stop there--but look where the progress came from--the activist community--not the damn Whitehouse, and not from St. Ronnie Raygun. That racist homophobic SOB sat in the White House and he did and said NOTHING about the issues of HIV/AIDS.

Had he at least been able to speak the damn name, maybe I could have forgiven him for his ignorance and his bigotry--but he didn't or wouldn't. As a result, too many died, and too many are lost forever.

You are damn right if you say I am irrational in my hatred of that man and his inaction. I find it extremely difficult to be rational with so many holes in my heart and so many empty seats at my dinner table on holidays. I find it impossible to NOT be irrational when I've buried so damn many of my friends.

Hell YES, I am glad that old bastard has gone to his reward, and I can only say I hope his personal hell is what he earned with his inhumane attitudes and heterosexism.



Robert, Michael, Steve, Greg, Paul and Tom--I DO remember you, and I'm still fighting.

Laura

[Duncan Grant]

115. Well done! Brava! n/t

[mellowinman]

121. This thread is right on the money

Bottom line, Reagan is burning in Hell. His attitude caused a whole lot of people to die, either DIRECTLY, (as in his support of the evil Conras,) or INDIRECTLY, (as in his disgusting pandering to the fucking UBER EVIL "Moral Majority," who were neither MORAL nor a MAJORITY,) in his ignoring a major health crisis that didn't appear to affect Rich White Guys at the time.

Everyone who argued with that premise on this thread is just plain WRONG, and that's all there is to it.

Reagan was a sorry fucking prick, and the world is better off without him. You don't want to hear me spew my opinion about this man, who screwed my country for eight years as president, and laid much of the groundwork for what's screwed it since?

Well FUCK YOU. I don't like Hitler or Stalin either. What are you going to do about it?

This is DU, baby. We who fought the good fight in the 80's got our asses reamed daily by the homophobic Right, which is beyond ironic.

Incidentally, I AM a straight white male, just in case someone wants to attribute this rant as some kind of homosexual "hissy fit."

Fuckers.

[happynewyear]

128. hey right on!

I know several people that have died of AIDS that were not gay! One was a hemophiliac, the other a woman that was pregnant, had HIV and did not know it until about 3 mos. before the baby was born. Wow was it sad! :(

Thank you Raygun you bum!

How is hell btw? It is really hot? What does the devil really do with that pitchfork? :evilgrin:

[scrotim]

122. A VIRUS killed your friends, Stephanie. And mine too.

I realized a few years ago that if I can't blame our "lifestyle" or our "behavior" for the horror of AIDS, as so many conservatives like to do, then neither can I put all the responsibility on the shoulders of RR or anyone else.

It's a virus.

And yes, the RR administration's reluctance to address AIDS is partly to blame, but so are many other factors.

I wish you well in your healing process. I miss my friends too.

[dennis4868]

126. My cousin....

who died of AIDS in the 80s when Reagan ignored the virus, not giving a shit about it and underfunding NIH and the CDC just because it was a "gay" disease....Reagan would not even utter the word, AIDS.....it's not important but my cousin was not gay....thank you Regan...may you burn in HELL!

[Name removed]

129. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mellowinman]

133. Find a cure?

Hell, I might try and find ways to help spread it.

But if I were in a position of power, and the families of those people said I "caused" their deaths, they'd be right!

No need to mince words.

Yes, other factors helped spread AIDS.

BUT SO DID REAGAN, AND HIS MORAL MAJORITY FUCKSTICK FRIENDS.

That is the TRUTH, and cannot be denied.

[Name removed]

137. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DeerHunter]

138. WROOOONG!

You have no fucking clue who you're talking to.
I have seen death, blood and guts beyond your wildest fucking dream.
I made that post as kind of cheap shot, yes.
However, several things have happened to me recently, that made me look at people differently.
It takes balls to look your self in the eye and realize that you are a hypocrite.
I have spent most of my life as one.
Most other people have too.
My life was saved by a caring man who makes Reagan look liberal.
When shit REALLY hits the fan we aren't liberals and conservatives,
we are people.
I may be thrown off this site, because I no longer hate like I used to.

[davsand]

139. People are just that--people.

ALL life deserves respect--irrespective of how you see it or what you feel about politics/activities/color. My beef with Ronnie is that his inaction (in this case anyway) created death and suffering that could have been avoided.

In his case, I feel that his blind loyalty to the idea of no sex ed probably killed people, and for that I condemn him. I also find it difficult to forgive his evident issues with gay people--issues so strong that it was easier to just ignore an epidemic rather than face his own dislike of gay people.

You are correct that my response to you was judgemental--and I apologize for that.

Peace to you.


Laura

[dennis4868]

140. If I were Prez and there was an outbreak.....

of a disease no one knew about I would do everything I could to get to the bottom of it...I could care less which part of the country or the type of people it was affecting the most....that would be irrelevant...as Prez I have a duty to all people of the country....not only people that looks like me and acts like me....nuff said!

[LibertyorDeath]

136. Sorry for your loss Stephanie

I'll raise a glass for Michael, Carlos, and Tim, and Greg, and Larry, and Daniel.

Reagan was Americas worst prez then along came this asswipe.