Photographic PROOF of Abu Ghraib MURDER! WARNING!!! GRAPHIC!!!

[Walt Starr]

First, look at the man in this picture:



Now, look at this one, it's the same guy:



Same guy again with the dog bit injury (patched via a dirty T-shirt and duct tape the all purpose fixer upper):



Now, it's fairly obvious Spc Harmon is sewing up the same dog bite victim here:



Here's the kicker! Look closely at the facial features you can see. Spc. Harmon is posing with THE SAME TORTURED MAN IN THE PREVIOUS FOUR PICTURES!!! THEY MURDERED THIS GUY!!!!:

[lazarus]

1. I think you're right

Jeebus help us.

[Solly Mack]

2. It does look that way

I think you might be right, Walt.

This is just so sick. gawds...

[Cat Atomic]

3. Christ.

That's so fucking sick. I can't believe how this bunch, from Bush on down to Rosey the Nazi Riveter here, has shamed us all. It's unforgiveable.

It's just disgusting.

[calimary]

38. Yep. this shit is another reason why we no longer stand tall in the world

as most people feel we did during Reagan's day. This is yet another reason why there's a gnawing discomfort deep-down in the conservative mind - that their best days are behind them. FAR, FAR behind them.

[w13rd0]

4. I've NO doubt in my mind...

...that the orders for these actions came from the top down, and I pray that BushCo is brought to justice. Yeah, they hate us for our freedoms. A slideshow of the humiliation, torture and murder of an Iraqi "detainee"...

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. The beard in the last pic...

isn't as dark as all the others.

That girl is the same girl though. What a sick little wench! What? Was this all fun and games for those people? I hope their asses end up in jail...AFTER they sing about WHO ordered them to torture the prisoners.

[mopaul]

9. the camera flash would tend to lighten the beard.....

i think walt nailed it.

[Walt Starr]

11. The beard was the first thing that threw me off

and the angle makes the eyebrow look thinner. There's another picture of a man posing with the victim that I think has a better angle. I'll look for it.

[mopaul]

13. my old eyes see the same man. attacked by dogs, beaten to death

and walt put it all together in my head. i say it's the same poor man.

[Walt Starr]

15. Another picture of the vicitm with another smiling murderer

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. Look closely at the beard

in the top photos...the dark beard goes all the way up the cheek of the guy. The lighter beard on the dead man doesn't go up his cheek at all. The dark bearded man....his beard goes almost all the way to his eyes. I think they're 2 different people. ;)

[TolstoyAndy]

6. Looks the same

Hair, nose, ears. A bit tough to be sure, but I'll tell you what:
they killed _somebody_ and put him on ice.

And look at all that blood on the floor. What scum.

God damn them all to hell.

[VolcanoJen]

7. The photos are disgusting, but I'm not sure it's the same guy.

The deceased prisoner's earlobe looks to be quite a bit larger than the prisoner being attacked by the dog, for example. The prisoner being attacked by the dog also has a thicker eyebrow.

You may be onto something here, Walt, but I'd need to see some more photos... as excruciatingly difficult as it is to view them.

:-(

[Supply Side Jesus]

16. ya right, the eyes brows don't really match

but the corpse has a mark on the right side of his face where the prisoner in pic 3 was put into a hold position with right side of face driven into ground.
I ain't no forensic scientist, but doesn't the injury on the face of the corpse look fresh. Hence, perhaps he was beaten before he died? Hence, damming the US for eternity. Though I am sure someone has noticed this before.

[Walt Starr]

19. Look at the angle of the picture

the eyebrows appear thinner due to the angle.

[Supply Side Jesus]

26. i dont know...

the angle does thin it a bit, but i'm not sure if it would thin it that much considering the forehead is still visiable. That poor guy who had the dogs unleashed on him had bushy eye brows. Plus, the thinner beard supports the thinner eye brow. Now I would love to nail these sick bastards with murder....which they probably did, but I ain't certain these photos tell that story.

[kittykitty]

30. There are pictures with other views of the dead guy packed in ice

somewhere. A straight on vertical view. Does anyone have it?

[Supply Side Jesus]

31. that i would want to see

not that i would LIKE to but that could defintley clear this up.

[Walt Starr]

32. I remember it, too.

I've been looking for it.

[Walt Starr]

33. SHIT, found it on ABC, but they distort his face!

I wonder why it's distorted?

[Walt Starr]

35. FOUND IT!!!

[VolcanoJen]

39. I still don't think it's the same guy.

The earlobes are completely different... also, the front teeth of the deceased prisoner seem to be less plentiful than those of the prisoner being attacked by the dog. Of course, who knows how many of his teeth got knocked out by Nazi Girl and her friends? :mad:

I also think the deceased prisoner's eyebrows are too thin.

Time frame here too... in the deceased prisoner photo, Nazi Girl isn't wearing lipstick, and her tweezed/waxed eyebrows are beginning to grow in a bit. In the horrific dog bite photo, Nazi Girl is wearing blood-red lipstick, and her brows are perfectly groomed. This means nothing of course, but it should at least be clear that if both prisoners are the same, he wasn't killed the day the dog bite happened.

Either way, it is clear that prisoners died in custody, and it's quite possible, almost likely, really, that they were murdered.

[in_cog_ni_to]

42. Me either.

The little wench is also wearing different shirts in the pics and different rubber gloves. The man on ice looks like he has a space between his front teeth. The other guy looks like he has a nice full mouth of teeth. I suppose they could have knocked out a few teeth too though. :shrug: The beards look too different. It doesn't change the fact that they are sitting over a dead Iraqi prisoner...giving the thumbs up. How sick is that? :grr:

[theHandpuppet]

65. Can you rotate that pic 180?

I think it would be easier to view for comparison.

[k in IA]

8. I haven't seen pictures 4 and 5 previously. Where did you get those?

Nasty sick Fu@#ers!

[Walt Starr]

10. They JUST CAME OUT TODAY!

By October, I bet we have a complete minute by minute slide show of the murder of this guy.

Not to mention babay rape videos.

Bush is such a sick fuck. He makes Reagan look angelic by comparison and Reagan was nothing but an evil old fuck.

[Snazzy]

46. Where? Any US media coverage?

So far it's been WaPo and New Yorker breaking new photos. Not there, that I see.

Would be good if there were other sources too. The bleeding leg shots are damning in a picture is worth a million spin attempts sort of way.

[Snazzy]

51. Found it.: WaPo yesterday

That there are new shots has flown under most people's radar on account of Raygun coffin-cam.

They are in a slideshow:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/photo/world/G33343-2004Jun11.html

Must be a sidebar to a story they did yesterday, the mother of all Friday surprise/take out the trash days.

Edit: Sidebar to this story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32776-2004Jun10.html

Use of Dogs to Scare Prisoners Was Authorized
Military Intelligence Personnel Were Involved, Handlers Say
By Josh White and Scott Higham
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, June 11, 2004; Page A01


U.S. intelligence personnel ordered military dog handlers at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq to use unmuzzled dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees during interrogations late last year, a plan approved by the highest-ranking military intelligence officer at the facility, according to sworn statements the handlers provided to military investigators.

A military intelligence interrogator also told investigators that two dog handlers at Abu Ghraib were "having a contest" to see how many detainees they could make involuntarily urinate out of fear of the dogs, according to the previously undisclosed statements obtained by The Washington Post.

The statements by the dog handlers provide the clearest indication yet that military intelligence personnel were deeply involved in tactics later deemed by a U.S. Army general to be "sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses."

President Bush and top Pentagon officials have said the criminal abuse at Abu Ghraib was confined to a small group of rogue military police soldiers who stripped detainees naked, beat them and photographed them in humiliating sexual poses. An Army investigation into the abuse condemned the MPs for those practices, but also included the use of unmuzzled dogs to frighten detainees among the "intentional abuse."

....

[k in IA]

52. I didn't see anything on LBN. Did they come out on ABC's website?

[Snazzy]

54. See my 51 n/t

[k in IA]

55. Thanks. I figured it was probably the WaPo - they seem to be the

main paper doing any work on this (excluding Sy Hersh, of course)

[Snazzy]

56. just started a thread on it

Big news that I haven't seen here or on the top political blogs. I thought yesterday's WaPo story was a rehash and skipped it.

[Snazzy]

62. there is a thread already

just falling off the page with all the never-ending Raygun crap

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1776153&mesg_id=1776153

[Fear]

21. no more words, absolutely speechless.......saying how sorry I feel for

what has happened (IS?!?!?!?!) in the prisons would never even come close to what these people have (ARE?!?!?!) suffer(ed)/(ing).

[Hell Hath No Fury]

12. My only reservation is the beard...

In the torture images the 5 o'clock shadow is VERY heavy and the hair line goes all the way up onto the cheek area. In the death image, the shadow is much lighter and the line not as high -- he doesn't look as if he has to shave his cheeks like in the other images.

I'm not sure how much shaving they allow these guys to do, so I suppose it's possible he shaved/was shaved before dying, especially if the images were taken some time apart.

[JPJones]

17. You are right, not the same guy

It still doesn't change the conclusion - that guy didn't die of old age.

[never cry wolf]

24. Nothing says that the pictures were all on the same day...

same perps, but I don't think the dogs would have killed him but other methods could have a few days later after a shave.

on edit: spelun, I'm actually a good speller, NY times sunday x-words and all. Just can't type!

[Walt Starr]

29. I believe he was probably beaten to death

Standard method of death from interrogation is blunt trauma.

[floda]

36. The saddest thing about this

is that the man never was indentified and will be put in an unmarked grave while his family maybe are just waiting every day outside the prison with hope.:cry:

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1287

How Abu Ghraib torture victim faces final indignity: an unmarked grave


In the erratically refrigerated vault of Baghdad's overcrowded mortuary lies an unclaimed corpse: number E63. For the past four and a half months, the most famous victim of the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, whose battered body was photographed wrapped in plastic sheeting, has been waiting for someone to collect him. So far nobody has.

The precise circumstances of Manadel al-Jamadi's death in US custody are unknown. But leaked documents from an ongoing Pentagon investigation show Jamadi died during a CIA interrogation in the jail on November 4 last year, after being beaten up in the showers.

CIA officers insisted on questioning him with a hood over his head. It was only when he slumped over dead that they took off the hood and found he had severe facial injuries.

Afterwards two US guards at the prison west of Baghdad, Charles Graner and Sabrina Harman, posed for photos with his body, grinning and doing a "thumbs up".

more..

[Eric J in MN]

50. actually, I read a news article about how his family

Actually, I read a news article about how his family saw the photo of his corpse on tv and recognized him.

(I don't have a link).

[PurityOfEssence]

14. And yet the worst is yet to come

The fact that she's absolutely lovely and cheery in a Reaganlike way with that infectious thumbs up is absolutely chilling.

Dogs. We sicked dogs on them. Naked and outnumbered and surrounded by armed, clothed soldiers, he had to face this.

The world needs to see these, and if there are more, those to.

She is one of the scariest things I've seen of late; these even compete with the Black-hooded electroguy. What will truly rattle people about her is that we, as a culture, are facile beauty worshipers, and we're also hell-bent to dismiss evil as occurring in others. The Lynndie Englands of the world can be marginalized out of our guilt by dismissing her as a Hillbilly, but this will be more difficult to ward off.

I want these all to be very public, and I want all the incumbent Republican Congresspeople to have to either publicly repudiate them, or go on record equivocating. It's perfectly necessary that incumbents be tarred as "pro-torture and pro-murder" and have their names dragged through the mud.

Makes you sort of wonder what the next set of pictures will be like.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alfredo]

22. Not the same guy. The beard line is different.

[susu369]

23. I agree

also, looking at the background (walls, floors, etc.) there certainly is consistency.

At a loss for words....

[Mikimouse]

25. I'd vote for them showing the same man...

In the third picture, the position of the man's head on the floor would be consistent with the type of abrasion (from the floor-concrete floors are never smooth) that would on the right side of the face near the eyes, that is shown in the last one.

[babzilla]

27. same war crime, different victims

the teeth, eyebrows, earlobes and beard are different.

These photos portray thumbs-up gal enjoying the torture of at least 2 different prisoners.

Man tortured by dog: heavy beard, bushy eyebrows, even upper teeth, attached earlobes.

Man dead in ice: light beard, shapely eyebrows, crooked upper teeth, detached earlobes.

Loretta Young look-alike thumbs-up gal: all-american monster

[never cry wolf]

28. NOT in MY fucking name!!!

I weep for my country, literally!

[left is right]

34. I don't care if it is the same man.

One man is tortured and threatened with vicious dogs, the same or a different man lies probaly dead on the floor with an army boot stamping on his throat. A third man or still the same lies in a body bag looking as if he did not die from a stoke, or a heart attack, or even the ingestion of a bad piece of meat. One, two or three men-it is still torture and death by American soldiers' hands.

[Mnemosyne]

43. I agree totally!

the point is human beings were tortured and murdered in the name of the * admin.

Never in my name!!!

I cried the day * attacked and feel daily sorrow for those suffering in this world.

[crossroads]

63. Me either, this is just sick!!!

I can't think thay gave the guy a shot of novacane to sew up those bites. Anyone ever have stitches w/o novacane? Even if the man is alive this is all inhumane...
:puke:

[Disturbed]

37. Military investigates itself.

Is that really a great idea?

[DoYouEverWonder]

40. Remember all those mortar attacks on Abu Ghraib

that used to happen all the time with lots of Iraqi casualties. Turns out that not all of those 'casualties' were killed in mortar attacks. Seems that the folks at Abu Ghraib were making up these attacks to cover up some of their own killings.

There are reports that on one occasion, the soldiers got po'd at the inmates and from a distance shot them up while they were in their tents. This is probably the main reason why they killed Mazan Dana, he had found out what was going on and was video taping evidence of these attacks.

[TrustingDog]

41. I noticed this too....

when the dog attack pictures were released. The dead body one was in the first batch.

[7th_Sephiroth]

44. how is it that these people

are still walking free and these pics havent bit bush in the ass?

[VolcanoJen]

57. They *have* bitten Bush in the ass.

I think the Iraq Prisoner Torture scandal broke the illegitimate camel's back, actually. His poll numbers have been in the shitter ever since, and it's the one event that finally made the majority of Americans polled feel that the Iraq war was not justified, and they no longer trust nor approve of Bush's stewardship.

It's sad that it had to come to this, but at least it's come to this. Bush will leave the White House, based upon the torture scandal, that happened on his watch, at his hand, under his leadership.

I'm embarrassed for my country.

[Oddman]

45. It's not the same person

facial hair is completely different in color and growth pattern.

[janx]

47. The body on ice--

They're covering this one up as much or more than any. From what I recall (and I think this came from a Sy Hersh article, not sure), the official story was that the guy was being interrogated with a hood over his head, and the interrogators "didn't know" that he was injured.

There have been several versions of the same story, and it was never clear WHO BEAT HIM IN THE FIRST PLACE--was it the interrogators at the prison, or soldiers who brought him there? Either way, it amounts to murder. The MPs and others in the prison knew this. The guy was never even officially checked in and didn't have a number assigned to him, so they hid him on ice until they could fake it and pretend he was only wounded. They later put the body on a stretcher, attached an I.V. to his dead arm, and pretended to be taking him to a hospital. Nobody seems to know what happened to the body after that.

The point is that the photos we see of the body on ice were taken when the body was being hidden from the rest of the prisoners, when they were trying to figure out how to cover up the murder. The MPs who took and participated in these photographs are going to be very sorry they did so indeed.

P.S. I love how the Nazi chick has MAKE UP on in one of the more sadistic photos.

[Fescue4u]

48. Not only did they murder him. They SHAVED HIM TO!

And worked his eyebrows over.

Clearly this is a different guy.

Even if it was, it would not prove murder in a court of law. just that the guy died in custody.

Doesnt excuse anything mind you, but proof is a pretty tall order.

[slinkerwink]

49. NO! That's a Different Guy! I have PROOF

[janx]

53. I agree with you, Slink.

See my post #47.

[Walt Starr]

58. Why I started this thread

More than anything else, I started this thread to get more people to look at the two new pictures. The ones that show incontrvertable evidence that torture was practiced at Abu Ghraib. The two pictures that prove beyond any reasonable doubt that this was not "frat prank" bullshit, but full fledged torture.

The original WaPo thread from yesterday sank because everybody was busy looking at the Reagan crap.Is the dead guy the same as the tortured guy? Probably not, but he bears close enough of a resemblance that the controversy of "is he or isn't he" got a lot of DUers to see the two pictures released yesterday.

We are like the Germans from May of 1945. We must see ALL OF THE HORROR perpetrated in our names. We must face how evil our nation has become.

Though I did not want this to be done in my name, it was. The more people who are forced to see these atrocities, the better.

[VolcanoJen]

61. Walt, you done good.

I don't think it's the same guy, as I pointed out earlier, but I think your question was valid, fair, and important.

And yes, America has to look at these photos with a bit of a tortured eye herself. They're disgusting, and I've never been more ashamed of my countrymen, my president, my Army. :-(

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. I agree, Walt.

EVERYONE must see these! It cannot be swept under a rug and forgotten! This HAS to be addressed and dealt with. I say put the pics on every cable news network. Show the freepers what their idol has done.

[janx]

68. I understood that...because if anything, if it had been the same

guy, it would have mattered a little less. This is appalling and I can't understand why we don't hear about this stuff west of the Mississippi, for instance (although the Denver Post is coming up in the world and has produced articles from a journalist who is actually in Iraq, rather than relying solely on wire stories).

Where is John Kerry re this?!

That's what I can't understand!

[Must_B_Free]

59. The injuries don't match

There is one at the knee on the cringing man and the taped up blood injury.

However the one she is sewing is clearly higher on the thigh and not visible.

[graham67]

60. I don't think its the same guy....

The ears are a different shape, the shape of the beard doesn't look the same.

[jmowreader]

66. You were kidding about the t-shirt and duct tape thing, right?

That is a genuine Government Issue Field Dressing just like our brave young men have been carrying to battle for decades.

[jmowreader]

67. But it does look like two different Iraqis

Which is worse for the Shrub, because it adds a guy to the list of people we've tortured.

Nazi Girl's makeup bothers me too...it's almost a case of "they won't think I'm an SS member if I pretty myself up."

The picture of NG with makeup on was taken at night; the desert gets cold at night, and she's dressed in cold-weather gear--a knit watch cap and a polypropylene thermal shirt. NG with no makeup is a daytime shot--note that both garments are missing. They seem to be practicing "sleep management"--the nice term for "sleep deprivation."

[Piperay]

69. I think it is two different

people, the profile looks different, the one who is dead has a more prominent sharp nose. Also little 'ms. pinup' has differnt colored gloves on so the timing is different. Whether it is the same person or not doesn't make it any less awful, in fact it makes it worse because it means more were abused.

[kwolf68]

70. Yes we can blame Bush

But just as we determined after WWII, the defense that "I was simply following orders" doesn't fly.

Many of our military personnel have defamed this entire nation and themselves. Of course, since military service is now deified in this nation I guess we can't be critical of these jackasses who did this.

Just wonderful.

[Warren DeMontague]

71. With all due respect...

What difference does it make if it's the same guy or not? Bottom line is, someone ended up as the corpse they're giving the thumbs-up over.. Probably countless others. We're only going to find out about the ones they can't cover up. I linked from my Blog to a story about how one Iraqi alleges they pulled his toenails out, and another alleges that they beat his 63-year-old father to death in front of him. Upon reading that, my wife asked me, "do you think those allegations are true?".. My response was, "how much credibility do you think any of this stuff would be getting, if there weren't pictures?"

I think we should demand the immediate release of all information on what has been done and is being done in our name.