I talked to my gun-loving, black hating, conservative Uncle today....

[Khephra]

And he's disgusted with the torture that's been going on. He said that it should be investigated as far as it can go. I asked, "Even to Bush?" and he said YES. If Bush was responsible, he felt that Bush should face the heat and be charged if he broke any laws.

Oh, he tried bring up Clinton, but since I'm not a big "Clinton did no wrong" Democrat, he tends to listen to me more than he would with a unyielding Clintonite.

I don't know if that sounds like much, but if you only knew my Uncle you'd understand what a radical shift this is for him. He won't vote Kerry, but he's finding it harder to vote for Bush than ever. He might just stay home if things keep up the way they're going now.

(In his defense, he's a paleocon, not a neo.)

[DaveSZ]

1. Yep

I'm a progressive, so I'm not a Clinton fan either.

It helps when you have an open mind and can examine policy instead of only the man behind it.

People will respect you more for that.

[lancdem]

2. Thanks for posting this

[bryant69]

3. Well this is a good sign.

There is an increasing frusteration with the Bush's incompetance. I mean even if you don't believe Bush had anything to do with the Torture; his administraton let it happen.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[Kahuna]

4. Yep. We need to get repukes to stay home on election day...

:thumbsup:

[zbdent]

18. Set up Gay kissing booths at the polling place

$1 to get kissed.

$100 to not get kissed.

That will keep them away until the jackboot police arrive.

[chefgirl]

5. I love hearing stories like this

Just to add an observation of my own, most of the right wingers that I know personally ARE actually paleocons. The problem is that they still believe anyone with an R in front of their name is inherently of the same mind.
I've made a real effort, when speaking with them, to shift the focus away from why I don't like Bush to why THEY shouldn't like or trust him.
He is NOT, nor are any of his closest confidants, conservatives.
This is a radical, neo-conservative group, bent on undermining this great country we all love so much, all in an effort to line their own pockets and cement their hold on power.
I've been very surprised at how receptive people have been when I explain my dislike of the current GOP in those terms.

One small step at a time, I see people beginning to wake up.

-chef-

[Cleita]

6. Kephra, I'm sorry but if he isn't voting for Kerry, who then, Nader?

Let's just hope guys like him, who realize they can't vote for Bush in good conscience but can't vote for Kerry either, will just stay home.

[Khephra]

11. He'll just stay at home

Many of us forget this, but Bush Sr. had a similar problem, except in reverse.

Bush Sr. ignored the Radical Right and went too far to the center to attract votes. Check it up. You'll find I'm right...I just don't have handy links to give to you all. The Moral Majority Christians(which still had power at that point) stayed home in mass.

In hating the Right, the Left sometimes forgets that there are some behavioral patterns common to both Ds and Rs.

1-Forget your base--you lose.

2-Pander to your base -- you might win, but only one term.

3-Side with the "other guy" when they're actually right-- True Bipartisanship

If you can do a bit of 2 and all of 3 then you'll be a two termer.

[jfxgillis]

7. Then hook him up with Charley Reese!!!

I'm about 80% European Social Democrat and 20% paleoconservative myself.

There are absolutely SOLID paleocon reasons to actively support Kerry over Bush.

[vpigrad]

8. racists like him..

> gun-loving, black hating

Do all gun lovers hate blacks or just every single damn one I run into? I live in GA, so I run into a lot of those violent idiots that own guns. They all hate blacks.

Maybe you should work on things that are more important and basic than his support of Bush?

[Khephra]

12. His racism has some....reasons behind it.

I'm not defending his lifestyle or thoughts, but his family has had several violent encounters with black gangsterwannabees during the teenage years of his three girls. Attempted rape, guns shot into their house, pets killed...that sort of a thing.

It's going to take him years to get over that shit, but he's a loving man who thinks the way that he does because he's seen them hurt up close. It's irrational, but I know his soul and I know he'll eventually get over the past.

All his daughters have now moved into the "real world" so he has a lot less pressure on him these days and he's more relaxed than I've seen him in years.

His mind is opening up to the evils in the world, so I hope the rest will follow.

[Eloriel]

9. I myself have increasing (if begrudging) respect for paleocons

They are extremely important in today's political scene. It's their rebellion, their "just saying no!" that can help us tremendously. WE NEED THEM. And after this big dose of neocons, I can live with paleocons.

[never cry wolf]

14. Ok, help me out here

I have been on this board for almost a year now and have never before heard the term "paleocons."

What and who are they? s'il vous plait...

[bpilgrim]

19. traditional conservative

sure they love their guns, america, apple-pie and all that... but they also believe in preserving what is GREAT about america begining with the constitution then the environment.

they aren't big on NATION BUILDING, NATIONAL DEBT, big gov programs, corp swellfare, etc.

there is certainly a LOT of common ground.

i say we should CELEBRATE OUR HERTIAGE of IDEALISM and embrace all the iconography of USA and appeal to their PATRIOTISM to just say NO to the RADICAL neoCONs who have brought DISHONOR and WORSE loss of our LIBERTIES.

that works with all the paleocons i know.

in fact i don't actually know ANY neoCONs... damn ELITIST :evilgrin:

:hi:

peace

[Endangered Specie]

10. Its not so much about them not voting Kerry... but merely

having them stay home instead of voting W is good enough.

[LittleApple81]

13. I had a neighbor (21 years ago). He trained soldiers in self-defense

techniques. I was not close to him at all, but he hated Blacks and told another neighbor that he had trained his dog to bark at Blacks...

Anyway, I went on vacation and I suntan very easily and very fast. I was gone for 3 days, and had had a botched permanent (was supposed to be a "body perm" and ended up being an afro). When I came back, he saw me from afar and went running to our mutual neighbor and was asking if I had moved and....by God! dared rent to a black person!!! I am glad that I was not black, he would have sent his dog after me.

Racism is still alive and well....

This guy would never vote for Kerry, I don't think. I am sure your uncle falls in this category, but we do NEED TO VOTE TO ELIMINATE THE POSSIBILITY THAT THEIR TYPE CAN ACQUIRE MORE POWER.

[never_get_over_it]

15. My brother and a coworker

both supported Bush in 2000 and both are now not going to vote at all - both are pretty die hard republicans - but I never thought my brother would turn around....I have been working on him for years - and although this is not a turn around it is a huge step and two less votes for the moron in chief

[flaminbats]

16. Pictures of prisoner torture is having a silent impact on the right..

The biggest impact has been on conservative Christian women in the south. Many of these women are conservative Christians because they grew up in fundamentalists Christian families, and they vote Republican in part because their husbands do. Although conservative Republican men are usually the first to make excuses for this abuse and even joke about it, the wives of these same men are becoming increasingly frustrated and disgusted with the morals of the Republican party. Especially among the older religious women, many longtime Republicans are now planning to vote against Bush..who have never considered voting for Clinton or Gore.

This is what enabled Carter to overwhelmingly win the south in 1976. Although most conservative men in the south voted for Ford, it was the anger of fundamentalist Christian women...driven largely by Watergate and Carter's ability to portray himself as a moral leader, which enabled him to win these critical votes.

It will be harder for Kerry to win these votes, but with his military service record and the right kind of campaign he can reach a political base which Al Gore would have never won. The biggest surprise to me is how little attention the media has given to something that has altered the mood of the electorate in such a critical way.

[Trashman]

17. I work with gun loving, black hating, Democrats

everyday.

Wether you believe it or not. BTW they feel about the same way about gay people, and illegal immigrants too. They will all vote for Kerry though, and hate Republicans.