Teacher draws heat for Reagan remarks

[shraby]

A Shenendehowa teacher faces possible disciplinary action for disparaging former President Ronald Reagan during a moment of silence in his honor, district officials said.

The female High School East instructor, whom the school would not identify, refused to honor a silent tribute to the late 40th president during Monday morning's homeroom period, district spokeswoman Kelly DeFiciani said.

"Once the final investigation concludes, they could be subject to disciplinary action," DeFiciani said.

During the minute or so observation, the teacher made a series of "negative" and "inappropriate" comments about the Republican president's policies in front of up to 16 seniors, officials said. A parent of a student in the class alerted the district to the incident, she said.

(more)
<http://www.timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=256357&category=&BCCode=>

(free speech is a thing of the past..also political freedom)

[the Kelly Gang]

1. turning into a one party state

[physioex]

2. Screw that...

Now you can you get fired for not praying to our lord and saviour Raygun? There are no freedoms in this country, you do what you are told or else.....

[noiretextatique]

oh please...

this is ridiculous. if anyone violated the district's policy of endorsing a political figure, it was the principal who called for the moment of silence. i heard the place where i work was going to do some "moment" on friday, and i planned to leave the building. luckily, they thought better of it.

[tritsofme]

3. That's just plain disrespectful.

I'm sorry, but find it within yourself to take a minute and be silent.

If the class had anything to do with history or politics then open up a discussion, if it didn't, then teach your material and move on.

[noiretextatique]

4. disrespectful...what if you don't respect reagan?

even if he is dead...is that allowed?

[tritsofme]

5. Bite your tongue for the minute

and then open up discussion.

How hard is that?

[noiretextatique]

6. not your call...or mine

she had every right to express her disgust at the principal's attempt to force her to "show respect" to someone she did not respect.

[tritsofme]

7. And I have every right to condemn

her behavior as disrespectful.

I had no respect for Ronald Reagan as a person, I hated his policies and every thing he stood for, and I am very proud to say I voted against him twice.

But I do have respect for the office of the Presidency, I'm flying my flag at half staff not because I respect Ronald Reagan, but because I respect the office.

[Art_from_Ark]

9. Yeah, we should all show respect for a man

who flagrantly violated the laws of the US, who constantly disparaged the less fortunate, who made "jokes" about bombing countries as president, who invaded a tiny country to take the heat off his fiasco in Beirut, who supported death squads in Central America, and who may very well have been involved in a treasonous activity to ask an enemy nation to continue to hold US embassy employees until after an election.

:eyes:

Sorry, but the man deserves contempt, not respect.

[physioex]

10. This isn't a monarchy.....

We can't take action against people because they didn't observe a moment of silence. Can you show me the law she violated? We can only prosecute her on the rules that have been setforth not ones you make up....You are free to codemn her to an eternity in hell. But that is not the point..

[tritsofme]

12. I didn't say she broke a law,

and I don't know if she broke any school regulations.

She should probably just be reprimanded and have it left at that.

I just don't believe that was proper behavior.

[physioex]

15. I can...

Kinda maybe sort agree with you on her behaviour, just barely. But they are making a mountain out of a molehill. Leave the poor lady alone, and let her get on with her life...This is waaaayy over done, and we have bigger problems to worry about in the school system..

[RapidCreek]

101. The principal is the one who should be reprimanded

He violated school policy.

RC

[noiretextatique]

11. the office of the presidency was disgraced by reagan

and by the current one. you can respect the title all you want, but it's not disrespectful if someone disagrees with the faux american reverance for title divorced from the indivdual who disgraced the office. no one should be forced to "show respect" to a THING (like a title) or to a person who did not deserve her respect.

[tritsofme]

14. But why salt the wounds?

I don't see the difficulty in holding yourself back for one minute.

[noiretextatique]

16. she probably was over all the hoopla

and couldn't hold her tongue anymore. i can certainly understand how she felt. it wouldn't have made any difference if she had waited, since the school is in a heavily republican district. a kid told his/her parent about the teacher's comments, and the parent complained. something tells me the complaint was not about the teacher's timing.

[BiggJawn]

46. A minute this week, 5 minutes next week....

...and pretty soon it's "Watch what you SAY, Watch what you DO" 24/7.

[CWebster]

25. Crap

This is the same scam they ran with the "support the troops" meme that led so many by the nose to, by extention, support the actions of the troops.

Tell me, would you fly your flag at half mast with the passing of Hitler?

This office of the presidency crap is to silence the truth about the nature of the presidency under Reagan--extention Bush. It is nothing but cover.

[BiggJawn]

43. It's been a week. Isn't it time to raise your colours?

That irritated me this AM on the way in. I chalked it up to people Just Being Lazy.

Or did I miss the Executive Order ordering the flags to 1/2 mast until the stone is rolled and the tomb is empty?

[tritsofme]

47. Flags are ordered at half staff until July 4th IIRC

And I have no problem respecting that.

[BiggJawn]

53. Glad I don't fly a flag, then.

How much you wanna wager Carter or Clinton won't even get a week.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

60. my flag is NOT at half staff......and it was and will remain at full staff

:shrug:

[RapidCreek]

103. Thanks for letting me know! I've had mine in the closet

since 911....I'll be running her up the flag pole tommorow....as high as she will go.

Heck I might even get a ladder out and tape one of my bamboo rods to the top of the pole...just to make it a little higher.

RC

[Frodo]

49. Not everything is political.

The US Flag Code (written well before Reagan took office) requires flags to be flown at half mast for 30 days after the death of a President.

Lots of these Presidential honors are written right into the rules - like the 21-gun salute.

One of the great things about our country (until recently) was that you didn't HAVE to like the President.

[BiggJawn]

54. 30 days? OK. thanks for the info.

But I'll STILL bet Carter and Clinton won't get a week. I don't seem to recall Nixon getting 30 days, but then, what do I know?

[Frodo]

57. They will if they die after Jan 21st.

Kerry would never deny them the appropriate honors.

:-)

[truthspeaker]

88. you're STILL flying it at half staff? WTF? It's been over a week

Flag should have been at half staff for one day, not 8 days. All of this "Respect" you speak of is manufactured Gipper-worship. I don't remember having a moment of silence for Nixon, do you?

[RapidCreek]

100. Brilliant

The office didn't die...it's quite alive. Offices don't warrant respect...they are a thing...like a pencil or a desk. Those who use a desk or a pencil or an office warrant respect.

RC

[physioex]

8. Not very difficult...

But it's going a bit far when they take action against her. Why make such a big deal....Leave the poor lady alone, she already overworked and underpaid...Now they want to add insult to injury?

[RummyTheDummy]

39. That's what I was thinking

A good debate in the class after the stupid moment of silence would have been better than some sophomoric rant. One thing I've learned in the last four years is you have to pick your battles.

[Frodo]

31. Hey!

At least the man was elected. Which is more than some can say.

lol.

A "moment" of silence for a dead president - whether you like him or hate him - is entirely appropriate.

Now, a WEEK of same is excessive and partisan.

[noiretextatique]

37. it's still POLITICAL...the principal had no business

bringing politics into the school. it's hypocritical to blame the teacher for speaking out when the principal started this whole business in the first place.

[Frodo]

38. Not really.

THIS president is "political" because so many of us don't believe he was really elected.

The selection of a president is (and should be) "political". Many of the actions taken by a president are "political".

But the death of a legitimate president (even one I disagree with) is not a "political" event. It's when people MAKE it poltical (a la Wellstone) that we have a problem.

There's nothing wrong, for instance, with a state funeral for Reagan, or JFK.

[noiretextatique]

40. if the school policy is no politics

please tell me why the teacher is in hot water, but not the principal?

[Frodo]

41. Simple

The principle is the teacher's boss. If the school board said "no moment of silence" then the principal's boss would be the one with a right to be upset.

My previous point was that honoring a dead President (a real president regardless of your party - unlike a disputed president like we have today) is NOT a political move. Refusing to follow through with that moment of silence based on your political beliefs IS a "political" move.

You must not be old enough to remember Kennedy? Was that all political?

[noiretextatique]

42. i am old enough to remember kennedy

a student told his/her parent about the teachers comment, and the parent complained...that's why this is an issue.
forcing someone to pretend to respect a person or an office they don't is also political.

[Frodo]

45. Do you remember what the schools did that day?

[noiretextatique]

59. kennedy was assasinated while in office

as the entire world watched it on television. sorry...but a 93 year man dying, who happened to be a former president, is not even remotely similar to a sitting president being murdered before the entire world on television. that was a tragedy. reagan's death...sheesh i wish i live to be that old. not that i envy anyone with alzheimer's...i know that is a tragic disease.
if reagan had died from his assasination attempt, then the comparison to kennedy might have more validity. as i recall, nixon's death wasn't as important. of course he left office in disgrace...come to think of it, so did reagan.

[Frodo]

69. So it's all in HOW they die?

Sorry, that doesn't make sense. We've had state funerals and closed schools and moments of silence for LOTS of presidents.

Let's not take party loyalty so far that a dead president doesn't get the appropriate honors.

Clinton was President when Nixon died. And he still got a closed day on the NYSE and they largely ignored Watergate on the evening news, etc etc even though they didn't do the "state funeral" thing. But even Johnson got one of those.

Let's face it. The man was popular. Quite a bit more popular than Kennedy before his death. I think the opposing candidates got something like a total of 75 electoral votes in two elections. Pretty impressive stuff when you consider the nation was NOT 50/50 like it is supposedly today (what did we have? 100 vote majority in the House?).

It's over now. The more sour grapes we grow over the issue the worse things will be for us come November.

[noiretextatique]

73. um, yes i do think kennedy's tragic and televised death

had something to do with all the atttention he got...it was actually traumatic.
sure...reagan deserved a state funeral. but he doesn't deserved to be canonized or worshipped, and no one should be crucified for daring to SPEAK THE TRUTH about his policies, even during a "moment of silence."
i don't give a damn how popular he was.
he was not popular in MY community...black people never cared much for reagan...or the republican party, or bush.

[RapidCreek]

104. like hell it isn't a political move.

I'm a democrat...I don't want my kid showing any respect to a fascist thug...or to his misuse of the office of the Presidency. I particularily don't care to have some fuckstain who's salary I pay forcing him to do so. The fucker is lucky my kid wasn't in one of his schools classes...he'd be in the hospital right now.

RC

[cushla_machree]

98. i still don't understand

what was 'political' about wellstones death.

as for this, don't parents have anything else to do then complain about teachers who don't like reagan? who cares, seems a little lame to me. If we had a moment of silence for reagan at my work, i would laugh through it.

[dorktv]

113. The Right says it was politicalized because someone asked

people to carry on the legacy in electing people who believe the same as Wellstone, I guess if he had just said "um donate to charity" it would have be okay in their eyes. See Lies and Lying Liars for a better explaination for it.

[dumpster_baby]

66. I encourage ALL citizens to disrespect politicians

They are our servants, paid and paid well to do their jobs. THey should be the ones paying respect to US. We are the bosses.

When I look at the crappy and exploitative way this country has been operated over the last 25 years, compared how the social democracies of europe have been operated, I find that our "leaders" have done us wrong, most severely.

I DO disrespect Reagan, and Bush I and Bush 2 and CLinton, and Carter, and I call for them to be tried for treason, or other suitable crimes against the people.

FUCK REAGAN!
FUCK CARTER!
FUCK BUSH I!
FUCK BUSH 2!
FUCK CLINTON!

Now how do you like them (disrespectful) apples?

[RapidCreek]

99. Why should my child be forced to show respect for someone

whom deserves no respect? Reagan was an evil man. This school district is goddamn lucky my kid wasn't forced to display respect to a murdering, lying, treasonous thug....they'd be getting their asses sued.

RC

[bluestateguy]

13. What?

I especially like this statement: "It's not appropriate for any teacher to express their own political views."

Somehow I get the feeling that if a student or a teacher refused to mourn Bill Clinton if he passed that person would be hailed as a great patriot with a lot of courage. I can't say I would have done what this lady did, but free speech is not always meant to be genteel and polite, and indeed unpopular speech is exactly the kind of speech that needs government protection.

Then again this episode seems fitting considering how well the Reagan Administration supported public schools.

[NewHampshireDem]

17. Let me put on my school administrator cap ...

From a legal standpoint, the teacher was in the wrong.

The most sound argument in favor of that position: she has no more of a legal right to impose her views on her students than the district has to impose its views upon her. Her students are a "captive audience," meaning that if they don't want to hear her exercise of free speech, they cannot simply leave. They were compeled to hear her unsolicited opinions.

That is not to say that the board's policy is correct, however. The courts have supported a teacher's right to comment on matters of public concern. So, certainly it was within the teacher's right to criticize Reagan. The board's "no politics" policy would most likely not stand up in court.

However, during a moment of silence was not the appropriate time to do that. Courts have upheld that schools can have moments of silence--they are religiously neutral. She was not being asked to actually do anything. If she wanted to, during the moment of silence she could stand in the back of the room--out of her student's sight--and make faces, flip the bird, or simply clean her desk.

As for the teacher's punishment, she'll probably be written up for insubordination, if anything at all. There was really no damage done to the students.

As for the comments of the community members ... well, they're just idiots.

[RapidCreek]

105. A moment of silence is not politically neutral

when that moment of silence is a specifically described by the school prinicipal as a show of respect for Ronald Reagan. That "moment" was a stolen moment of scholastic activity which I pay the school to provide. I do not pay the school to indoctrinate my child with forced demonstrations of respect to ANY politictian, ANY God or ANY person. I particularily do not pay the school to indoctrinate my child in the rote acceptance of fascist functionaries by virtue of the political office they held or hold.

The Principal should be reprimanded. He broke school policy....a policy which was instituted to prevent the very action it motivated in the teacher. An action which would have motivated a law suit or at the very least an ass kicking by me...if my kid attended the school.

RC

[LARED]

18. Very unprofessional behavior

The teacher was out of line.

[ironflange]

26. I agree

Much as I dislike Ron, he is still a husband and dad, and deserves the moment of silence. She has the rest of her life to complain about him, one minute ain't going to hurt.

[GOPBasher]

19. Let me say something as a teacher.

As teachers, we really shouldn't talk about our political views to our students in class. It's not free speech; it's an abuse of power. My school district has an official policy against it. My politics have leaked out of me at times -- there were times when I just couldn't help myself. But I don't think it was right to do so. If it got back to the principal, I'm sure I'd be disciplined.

[LWolf]

22. This is correct.

Even more so in elementary school, where I teach. It was not her most professional moment. I forgive her; I, too, teach in a heavily republican area and have to hear grandstanding about * (and Reagan) on a regular basis. It was poor judgement, imo, but not to the point that the school board needs to step in.

[KittyWampus]

34. Tend To Agree & So Do My Parents (Retired Teachers)

but still... wasn't the Principal out of bounds requiring a moment of silence?

I don't know.

[Cheswick2.0]

50. I don't think the principal was wrong

No matter how we feel about him, he was President of the whole country not pres of the republican political party.
The principal should of course do the same thing if Clinton or Carter die.

[LWolf]

77. I'm not sure.

It might have to do with the nature of the moment, or with the way it is presented.

If my principal required a moment of silence, I would be silent. I might be silently meditating on the event or purpose of the moment. I might be standing with my arms folded, waiting for the moment to pass. I might be silently doing paperwork or reading. Who knows. He can ask for silence, but I decide where to focus my attention. Generally, I'm not bothered by a moment of silence to honor the passing of a life. I'd do it for one of my students or colleagues; I'd do it for anybody I know. I'd do it for anyone executed in a prison, or for any war or accident victims. As far as public figures go, I might not have appreciated or approved of whatever the person did with their publicity, but they were still a person, and I don't think I'd have a problem with it.

It's not the silence. It's the 24/7 non-stop extravaganza that's the problem! ;-)

[oldcoot]

36. What did she actually say?

According to the article, it sounds like she simply said that she did not think he was a hero. This seems like a relatively mild statement and I fail to see why she should be disciplined for this comment. Unless she used stronger language, I believe that this issue should be dropped.

[Dorian Gray]

61. I also was a teacher

and I agree with your point that we should leave politics out of the classroom. (Unless it's a political science course!) It's more important to me to have my students think independently, rather than be instructed how to think politically.

Surprisingly, many are extraordinary thinkers!

I would have kept my mouth shut. Personal dislike for the man is well and good, but there is also the issue that by her example, she's showing her kids how to be disrespectful. Of course, politically I'm liberal, but in the classroom, I'm draconian in many ways. I don't like interruptions or rudeness, at all.

[GOPBasher]

96. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

And I agree with everything you said. Like I said originally, I've let my politics slip out in the classroom before, but I know it was the wrong thing to do.

[LuLu550]

111. Welcome to DU!

How is that picture of you coming along?

[Pithlet]

102. Yes

I was in the seventh grade when Reagan was running against Mondale. My social studies teacher worked for the Mondale campaign. Now, at the time, I thought I was a Republican, because my parents were. I really didn't know at the time the difference between Democrat and Republican, and all I'd ever heard was praise for Reagan. She had us raise our hands if we would vote for Reagan again if were old enough, and when I and a few others did, she began to ask us why in a rather confrontational manner. Of course, I really couldn't tell her why, and she and the other kids laughed at me. I remember feeling very embarrassed.

I don't think what this teacher did was on the same level as what mine did, and I don't think she should be fired. But she was out of line. It's okay to bring up political issues for discussion. I think it's good to teach kids to care about the issues, and become political. But, teachers have to be careful that they aren't using their position to brow beat other kids and make them feel bad for their own beliefs and political views.

[Wapsie B]

20. The rwingers will just use this

and hype it for all it's worth. Just another example of how those godless liberals can't pay homage to the greatest leader in the history of the free world.

[DarkPhenyx]

21. There is a time and place for everything.

She picked the wrong time and place.

[noiretextatique]

23. the principal called for a moment of silence...isn't that unprofessional

and political? it wasn't something the school board ordered...s/he just decided to do it. therefore, the teacher was just responding to the principal's political statement. to those who think the teacher should be disciplined, why shouldn't the principal be disciplined also? and why won't that happen...because the school is in a heavily republican distict.

[bloom]

24. thats what I think, too

If they want to keep politics out, keep them out.

[apnu]

27. exactly!

It doesn't make any sense that the school should have a moment of silence. It forces the students to honor (more likely feign honoring) someone they may or may not have agreed with.

And why does Raygun get a moment of silence anyway? Or a state funeral for that matter? Nixon didn't get either, so why Regan? I'm speaking legally, I'm sure we all know that Nixon had a mainly forgettable funeral b/c he left office in disgrace.

Do you honestly believe that the school board would have a moment of silence if Carter suddenly dies? I doubt it.

Like it or not, schools always play politics. Its one of those unspoken things in American culture. My High School, which was in a largely liberal and Democratic town allowed all the teachers to express their views when it was expressly illegal for them to do so. And the Republican teachers expressed their political views constantly. The entire government department was all Republicans and they worked overtime to churn out as many Regan and Bush bots as they could. And the liberal history teachers did their best to manufacturer anti-war zealots. (not that its a bad thing, IMO, but just showing the other side of the coin here) And when students follow the teacher's example they were punished.

I have no problems with what the teacher did, but I agree that its unprofessional. Mixing politics and education is dangerous and dubious business, but the deed is done in every corner of this country. The big "but" here is this -- we live in a very political place. Everything we do and touch in America has a political taint. Like it or not, that's the reality of our nation. Choice of clothes, food, movies, books and so on all often have something political attached. Its our civic duty to be political along with being prosperous and law abiding people. Maybe that teacher's actions will spark something in the students. Maybe they will get involved and, if they can, vote in the coming election.

Perhaps, the best thing to do in that situation. (Given that some sort of political statement was going to happen during the moment of silence) The teacher should have put a vote to the class about honoring the silence, then had a quick dialog about what Regan means to the students and corrected any historical errors the students may have had. I dunno, it's just a thought.

I'm sorry for all the teachers here that may disagree with me, who hold themselves to a higher standard, and I hope they know that I'm not specifically speaking about them or they precious few teachers we have that don't partake in this type of influence.

[Cat Atomic]

28. Isn't it inappropriate to force a moment of silence in the first place?

I'd say that sounds like a political statement in itself.

A forced show of respect for a divisive conservative politician. After a full week of public fellating of the Reagan myth? That's the part that seems inappropriate to me.

[noiretextatique]

29. yes, indeed...people are blaming the teacher

but what about the principal who called for the "moment of silence?"

[Southpaw Bookworm]

56. Exactly

I would have loved for this to have happened in one of the local schools here in NoVA, where in some areas a good number of the students have been raised on stories of how their aunt/grandfather/cousin/etc. just disappeared in El Salvador or was tortured and killed courtesy of American trained and supported murderers.

Now THAT could raise a real discussion.

[oldcoot]

32. You are absolutely right

I suspect that if she had gushed about how Ronald Reagan was just the best president ever then she would not have gotten in trouble even though she would still be forcing her political views on her students. This woman's true crime is daring not to love a Republican president in a prominently Republican area.

[skippysmom]

30. Typical of this school district

I used to live in Clifton Park, which is so Republican their supervisor named his son after Reagan. It's full of nouveau riche yet not very well educated white people, who love the GOP and all it stands for.

Maybe the teacher shouldn't have done what she did -- but give me a break. That school district has much larger things to worry about.

[progressivebydesign]

33. I didn't know there was a LAW that we had to be silent!

I'd like to find it in that teacher's contract.. that she specifically agreed to be silent during that particular one minute. Give me a fucking break.

Remind me again why we can't use the Nazi comparisons? Or how about Romania in the 70's?

[NewHampshireDem]

44. The right to swing your fist ends at the other person's nose. eom

[RapidCreek]

106. the right to honor Ronald Reagan ends at the end of yours.

Don't ever, EVER try and force my child to honor your fascist president. EVER!!!! Or you will most definitely find I step equally beyond my rights as it relates to swinging my fist.

RC

[Amaya]

35. Free speech anyone?

She doesn't have to honor anyone for anything at anytime. For fuck sakes!

[Cheswick2.0]

51. What if some of the students wanted to observe that moment of silence?

Does she have a right to interfere with that?
What exactly did she teach those children in her little one minute rant except that politics were something that made people mad? She could have given them a chance later to look at both sides of the political thinking about Reagan. They might have actually learned something.

I have no objection to students knowing their teachers have an opinion and what that opinion is. However if the student's opinion is different from hers then she simply stepped on their right to honor someone who, like it or not, was the President. It is not like the principal was asking the school to have a moment of silence for Bush's victory on election day.

So she taught them nothing, she was disrespectful of their rights and she lost a chance to get new voters to think critically about the opposing view of Reagan's legacy.

Nothing will happen to her. The principal will be told to shove it by her union rep and that will be that.

[Amaya]

55. ALL political views of should be kept out of the classroom.

I do believe, she had every right not to honor a silent tribute. Silent tributes of political figures have NO place in publicly funded schools.

[Generic Other]

48. So how many teachers would remain silent if asked to honor Hitler

with a moment of silence?

The Germans were wise to outlaw such behavior.

And how many of us express outrage at Japanese textbooks that re-write history in order to justify their actions and make Americans look more like the aggressors in WWII?

As long as the entire history of the Reagan/Bush years continues to be suppressed and revised, silence is a crime.

Especially in a classroom.

[neoteric lefty]

52. it is a moment of silence people

good lord! She should just have been quiet for one moment. No matter how much you hate Reagan, he wasn't anything close to Hitler. Even using them together in such an example is ludicrous and a very distasteful. Love him or hate him, Reagan was the elected president for two terms. The office of presidency should deserve at least a bit of respect even from those who disagree.

She brought out her political views out during an inappropriate time. This was a classroom, not a street corner. The law distinguishes the two. While she is given the responsibility of the kids, it is her duty to show respect for them at all times. It seems akin to singing Britney Spears during the pledge of allegiance. While other people are around, show some respect for the moment and hold it in.

She had a great opportunity to use that time after the moment to open up a discussion or debate and really get the students thinking critically about those times in the 80's (Which I am sure none of them had done before). She instead decided to make a political comment during an inappropriate time. She SHOULD NOT be fired, suspended or be punished beyond a verbal reprimand and an apology, which have both occurred. As long as public schools are compulsory for students, the right of free speech does not fully extend into the classrooms, for both student and teacher.

[NewHampshireDem]

58. Well said <eom>

[noiretextatique]

62. should we respect GW BUSH?

even as he disgraces the office of the presidency? so...which is it people:
do we respect the "office" (a nebulous concept), and if so...do we respect it while bush occupies it?
or not?
if bush dies tomorrow, will you have a sudden "respect" for him? of course he wasn't elected...i suppose that might make a difference.

[neoteric lefty]

65. there's a huge difference between respect

for the man and the office. If I were back in school, and Clinton suddenly died, I would be very miffed if someone made a joke about a blue dress, or if someone coughed out "liar" during a moment of silence. I would be really pissed if that person turned out to be my English teacher. Do you understand where I am coming from?

You seem to want to make this a free speech issue and it isn't. There is a right place and time for comments like that and that moment in that classroom was not the right place. Again, teachers have an obligation to respect all of their students' views whether or not they agree with them. Teachers have quite a responsibility in their hands and must be held to a higher standard. Otherwise, the learning process in such teaching environment may be compromised.

And yes, if Bush were killed tomorrow, I would be silent at a moment of silence unless I knew that every person around me would not be offended by my talking. My respect for others who feel differently at such a time is more important that a cheap shot. But this is totally unrelated to the issue at hand.

[noiretextatique]

67. i do understand where you are coming from

i don't agree with you. free speech is often inconvienent, and this IS a free speech issue. the problem here is that this teacher was not a reagan cheerleader, because if she had been, there would be no problem.
it is the crux of the issue, since a parent complained not about her timing, but about what she said. perhaps she had bad manners, but she had every right to say what she did.
respect for the office...this is what really irritates me about americans. reagan disgraced that office...and so does bush. that should be more important than worrying about hurting the feeling of people who support these people.

[neoteric lefty]

75. this really isn't about if she has the right to say it....

You just argued my point, Noiretblu. By saying, "perhaps she had bad manners," you are signifying that her actions were out of place in a classroom environment. By being an employee of the school district and being under direction of the principal and other administrators, she is held to a standard set by those in charge. If she crossed the line, then she should be reprimanded. I agree that this wasn't a egregious infraction. It was actually quite mild and I believe an apology is appropriate. I DO NOT think she should lose her job or receive any further disciplinary actions. But she must know that she, as an educator, must aware of her actions and must try not to potentially disrespect the views of the students in her care. She has the right to say almost anything, but she must also know the school has the right to set limits and enforce those limits to a reasonable degree while she is working within the classroom.

It kind of reminds me of the DUer who was fired from NPR. He had the right to say and write anything he wanted to, but as soon as he said he was going to subvert the desires of his boss, then his boss has the right to fire him.

BTW, respect for other people is important to myself and other Americans. I don't care if a donkey was elected president and crapped in the oval office for 4 years; I will still have respect for the office of the Presidency and will at at least show a modicum of respect to those who occupy that office at certain appropriate times whether I love them or hate them. You may not feel that way but I do.

[noiretextatique]

89. i hear you...and she did apologize

however, i will never show respect for an office that is disgraced by the individual who holds it. if bush had any respect for himself, for the office, or for the country: he wouldn't be sitting in that office. likewise with reagan.

[RapidCreek]

107. One cannot have respect for pencils, desks, apples, dildos

or offices. They are things. We have and demonstrate respect to those who hold and use them...and the results they achieve while doing so.

I do not respect Ronald Reagan. I do not respect a man who uses a tool he has been given to extort, murder, lie, cheat and commit treason. I do not care to have my child forced to show respect for such a man either.

RC

[Generic Other]

74. I will not be silent because it makes others feel comfortable with lies

That makes me an accessory to their crimes.

I refuse to show respect to a doddering old actor who was hired to help dismantle the government, destroy all our institutions dedicated to the public welfare, and reward the wealthy at the expense of working Americans.

I will not show respect for a man who condoned stealing the bread from poor children's mouths to fund more useless weapons systems.
I refuse to be silent as this man is lionized as somehow being a great American.

Every single destructive policy that the GOP has rammed into place today is part of a plan first formulated under Reagan. Bush is Reagan's bastard stepchild if ever there was one.

Scream and screech about my disrespect all you want. My primary role as a teacher (as spelled out by the American Association of University Professors) is to speak the truth as I see it.

The truth is Reagan hasn't earned a moment of respect and neither have any of his apologists.

[neoteric lefty]

76. fine, speak if you must

but do not be surprised when your employer may discipline you for your actions in their workplace. You have the right to speak if you wish but realize that as an educator, your responsibilities are not only to your boss, but your students. I think the could have handled her disgust in a much more tasteful and a much more powerful manner. She could have spoken about the very same thing minutes later and created a wonderful lesson plan about things that went wrong in the 80s including the causes of the collapse of the USSR. I believe her actions during that brief moment crossed a line for many people. It may not have been a very important line, but she should have realized that her actions may have consequences.

[Generic Other]

79. First, it's shut up, now speak if I MUST? When were you promoted

to Homeland Security/Thought Crime Division? I am ashamed to hear fellow democrats pick on others for showing the courage of their convictions.

To speak the truth in the face of retaliatory threats is an act of courage. Conversely, to swallow a load of horseshit and smile as it oozes through your teeth is the act of a spineless coward.

There are lots of folks without backbones in this country. Even on DU it seems. Easy to flap one's gums when one takes no risk. Most of the teachers I know put themselves at risk every day. Low pay, inadequate supplies, overcrowded classrooms, impossible expectations meant to create failure. Most of them know exactly who is to blame for the situation. I'll be damned if I'll ever be silenced by a bunch of deluded rightwingers--not now, not tomorrow, not ever.

The best teachers are not afraid to risk their jobs in the name of the truth. They do it every day. The worst teachers think no one will notice if they substitute lies and propaganda.

[neoteric lefty]

82. Respecting others' opinion for a moment = Political cowardice? How?

The best teachers know when and where to speak the truth. I have never seen such hostility over a moment of silence. I hope you understand that I was speaking about the classroom environment in which this episode occurred and not out on the streets. There is a difference. Same as you at your workplace. You can say what you want on the streets and at work, but you have to understand there may be consequences for your words at work if they come at inappropriate times. Maybe you need to speak to a few of the teachers you know and they will tell you the same thing.

Not once did I say that she did not have the right to say what she did. Of course no Thought Crime Division is going to run her off to the Big House for her words. But as a teacher, she has to know when to speak about controversial issues (it may not be controversial to me or you, but theres a good chance it will be to one of her kids) and how to shape them for the benefit of the kids. That is the only reason she is there; for the benefit of her students. I do not think a moment of silence for a dead president would be too much to ask. There is quite a difference between being quiet for one minute while others pay respect towards a person in an teaching environment and not being able to speak the truth at all. If you don't understand that, then I cannot help you.

Just saying "Reagan was not hero" (or whatever she said) really isn't thoughtful enough or scholastic enough to be brought into the classroom in my opinion. Kids are probably going to dismiss that as some offbeat comment. She could have taken her angst and created so much more. Now instead of Reagan being the story in her students' minds, she is the story.

It's quite humorous for you all of a sudden to base your heated opinion of me on a single reply to you. Obviously we have a difference of opinion on this issue. You seem to want to divide us by this issue (which I must say is very small in the grand scheme of things) instead of acknowledging the difference and coming together. If that is how it has to be for you, then fine; I wish you the best.

[Generic Other]

84. Faking orgasms over Reagan

just so mindless drones can maintain the silly illusion that he was somehow worthy of respect.

Piffle.

[neoteric lefty]

87. There are much better ways to let people know about

the failure of Reagan other than than interrupting their moment of silence. It seems like some people in this world, and I am not necessarily including you, want to punch people in the face (metaphorically speaking) rather than calmly speaking to them like human beings and teaching them something new.

My opinion is that she picked an inappropriate moment and method to air out her viewpoints. The parents of her students got angry and she apologized. Think what you will, but I do not think the principal was out of line to ask for an apology to her students. That should be it though.

[Generic Other]

91. Interrupt their moment of silence or lose your voice completely

I don't like to be told what to think.

In Nov 2000, I was told I must not voice my objections to Bush's fraudulent election, I must "get over it, move on."

After 9/11, I was told to "watch what you say and do," that I must stand with Bush united against terror--"you are either with us or against us."

In 2003, I was told that it was unpatriotic to speak out against Bush's war, I had to "support the troops."

All they wanted was my silence. All they ever want is my silence.

[neoteric lefty]

92. first off, I never told you how to think

and to live in the real world, you must understand that there maybe non-criminal consequences for what you say and in the context of what you say. She has the right to say what she did but I think that it wasn't the right time and place to voice her opinion. Like I said before, she should not be fired or reprimanded beyond of an apology. The real issue IS NOT FREE SPEECH. It is the appropriateness of her actions in the eyes of her students and bosses.

And to call out the "slippery slope" analogy without any evidence is unjustified in my opinion. How is allowing for a moment of silence for the sake of your students going to lead to the loss of your Right to Free Speech? Explain it to me... pleeeeaaassssseeee... I never said she couldn't voice her opinion about Reagan, I just said she could have picked a much more appropriate time and method to voice it.

[Generic Other]

93. There's never a more appropriate time to speak the truth than the present

In the classroom, a teacher has autonomy. A powerful voice. It should not be the tool of liars.

[neoteric lefty]

94. And in the school itself,

the teacher is responsible to those above her for her own actions. She knows that when she gets hired. I don't see how, by her waiting 2 minutes to say basically the same thing to her students equates to her not speaking the truth. You are trying to make this small situation and turn it into a righteous crusade but it really isn't. It is a woman who, in my opinion, made a political comment at an inappropriate time. Others agree.

The teacher does not have full autonomy in her classroom. She cannot say certain things or do certain things to her students. There is a line in which she cannot cross or risk being disciplined or fired.

By the tone of your posts, I think you may be misunderstanding my position, so I will clearly spell it out for you. She has the right to freely say what she did, when she did. However, I and others feel that moment was not the appropriate time to make such a comment. As and employee of the school district, her words and actions during certain times can be judged by those in charge and they can relegate certain disciplinary actions within reason. I feel an apology was appropriate. I agree with what she said but do not agree about when she said it. You obviously feel different. Hopefully that clears up any potential misunderstandings.

[Generic Other]

95. silence shields liars

Read Will Pitt's first book. The Worst Sedition is Silence.

Some things are worth standing up for. Otherwise, you bend your knee to everyone.

[neoteric lefty]

97. I guess you don't understand what I mean

I have tried to discuss this with you for the past day, but to no avail. You still think this has to do with free speech and her obligation to speak the truth. I frankly, do not. It has to with her responsibilities and etiquette as a public school teacher. I guess we are just talking past each other with no end in sight. We disagree totally about the shape and size of the problem. So be it. I guess this is goodnight. Take care and maybe we can talk someday in the future about more important topics. Until then, adios. :hi:

[Generic Other]

108. You think people should be forced to lie to keep a job

I don't believe workers should be put in that position.

[neoteric lefty]

114. I think you totally misunderstood

my position and the actual problem at hand and are misrepresenting both with your words, in my honest opinion. Ga'night and take care.

[Delano]

63. What the teacher did was rude.

I personally would not participate in a moment of silence for someone I thought to be a criminal or otherwise horrible person. I would have simply left the room during the moment of silence and held my tongue until an appropriate time for discussion.

It is a school environment. You cannot teach students how to behave in a civil way if you are going to rant during a moment of silence.

Children do NOT have the full right of free expression when on campus, and it would be rather unfair for a teacher to presume that he or she should be able to rant at such an inapproriate time.

[depakid]

64. Any teacher who has an ounce of respect for Reagan

is NO teacher I'd want teaching my kids.

The facts are that his administrations first in California relentlessly disparaged and systematically tried to dismantle public education programs. A large part of the reason that many kids can no longer graduate from universities without large debtloads can be traced directly to Ronald Reagan's policies.

Yeah, some hero to schoolkids alright. Some hero to school administrators too.

The real hero is this teacher who defied enforced conformity. I suspect that she taught those kids a far more valuable lesson that they'll get in most of their classes.

[noiretextatique]

68. conformity...perhaps that is the biggest problem we face in america

too many people are just willing to go along with the program without questioning anything. just look at all the calls to "respect the office of the presidency" in this thread, as if it hadn't been completely disgraced already. etiquette still trumps all.
i won't be surprised when nice democrats get rolled over the the not-so-nice election-stealing republicans...AGAIN.

[Octafish]

70. Excellent post.

Wish I'd written it. Thanks, depakote_kid!

[Independent_Minded]

71. a bit simple minded i think

apparently you should shirk duty to satisfy your baser instincts.

its not a free speech issue, its simple minded rudeness. something all too prevalent in so called "political" displays.

[Generic Other]

80. Yes the principal was RUDE to expect a teacher who didn't share his

views to pretend she did.

[depakid]

86. Duty to principle is often symbolic

and involves stands just like this one.

It took an instance of so called "rudeness" and failure to "respect decorum" to turn the tide during the Army McCarthy hearings (you are familiar with them, I assume).

The parallels are readily apparent.

To anyone who has ever been a part of the public school system- in any capacity- a classroom tribute to Reagan is profoundly insulting or else requires a considerable amount of ignorance.... or a vast capacity for doublethink (i.e. cognitive dissonance).

On reflection, though- I think silence may have been appropriate- provided that it was accompanied by the teacher holding up a series of placards listing the Reagan Administration actions. Things like:

Reclassifying Ketchup as a vegetable in order to cut school lunch programs.

or this:

"if kids cannot afford to go to college, then maybe more kids shouldn't go to college," ~ William Bennet, Ronald Reagan's Secretary of Education (this in order to justify drastic cuts in financial aid).

[neoteric lefty]

83. She did a disservice for her kids because...

now, she is the issue at hand, not the politics of Reagan. She could have refocused her energy and created an entire discussion about Reagan's politics and what went wrong with them. But, she didn't. I think she decided to take the easy road out (probably without thinking there would be any consequences). But thats just my opinion.

[Deja Q]

72. Right on teacher!

What is happening to her is ridiculous.

[Mr. Blonde]

78. I don't think

one minute is too much to ask. Even for someone you don't like. In Ok schools we have a minute of silence everyday. They don't say what you have to do during that minute, but respect others who want to reflect or pray or whatever. Why is this different. While others are praying for Reagan's soul, she could be praying that he is burning in hell. Then after the minute was over started the discussion about him. One minute is not that long to be quiet. I would think most teachers would relish a minute of silence from their students.
I got the distinct impression from an email from my university's president that if not for the compacted schedule in the summer, we would have been out of school. Bastard, why couldn't he have died during the regular semesters?

[GoneOffShore]

81. She did the right thing

I was looking to going outside and jump up and down, blow a horn and applaud when the funeral was in progress.
He was NOT an American hero, he did his best to bring down ordinary working Americans.

[Seabiscuit]

85. In view of this event,

let's organize a DU rally of several million Americans so we can all go and piss on Reagan's grave, just to let the bastards know free speech is still alive and well no matter how many people they scapegoat for failing to bow to their nauseating idolotry.

Hell if we all arrived with bladders full at the same moment, we might just set his coffin afloat and into the River Styx. We could call it the "yellow tide of freedom".

[gulfcoastliberal]

90. Freeper spawn reports teacher to parents

parents report teacher to school district. Those freepers love rehearsing for the real deal, when they will report suspiciously unpatriotic citizens to the FBI/DHS. Fucking worthless scum.

[BrendaStarr]

109. What state is this in?

Thanks

http://news4r.alturl.com/

[LuLu550]

112. up state New York

very republican

[LuLu550]

110. I used to cover that school as a reporter

very conservative, Republican place. The teacher either had balls or was dumb to do it. And I can't imagine what "disciplinary action" the district could take against her. The teacher's union in NY is strong and she can't be compelled to observe a moment of silence.

This could blow up in the school's face.

[Hammie]

115. The teacher is a jerk

The principal called for a moment of silence to honor a former president of the United States. That might be a bit sappy, but it is at least reasonable. The dumb-ass teacher just had to take the opportunity to make some kind of political point.

That is just stupid. Adults are often called upon to bite their tongues and just STFU. If you can't handle it, it is just possible that you shouldn't be in a position of authority over children.