What is your opinion of John Walker Lindh, more than a year later?

[kentuck]

Taliban John Walker? Where are you now? What did they do to you? How could a kid like you be in a place like Afghanistan when the US decided to invade? Of course, I guess you had no idea the US was going to be your "enemy"?

This case still tears at my soul. I would like to see a new trial and the young man given a new chance, what with every thing evil that has happened since his capture. I feel like I am part of this torture of this young man and I cannot escape that feeling. Bush and Rumsfeld has done it all in our name. Isn't it time to free John Walker Lindh?

[rpannier]

1. NO

It is not time to release John Lindh. He left the United States, joined a foreign military, fought against U.S. forces. He deserves no more consideration. He got more than he was entitled to. He should have lost his U.S. citizenship when he joined the Afghani Military -- for those who say "No, he shouldn't." Read your (or a friends passport). Number 8: Loss of U.S. Citizenship section. He met the criterion by "Serving in the armed forces of a foreign state" (point 3).
To anyone who says, other Americans have done that and not lost their citizenship, I say, "They should HAVE lost it." Just because someone else has done it, does not mean you should.

[kentuck]

5. But the Taliban was not a "foreign state"...

That is why the Geneva Convention rules did not apply ot them..Remember?

[rpannier]

13. I don't care what shrub says

He joined the military in Afghanistan. He's a traitor.

[kentuck]

14. I wish I felt as secure in my opinion as you.....

I dont see it as black or white as you. I haven't seen the evidence.

[rpannier]

17. I'm convinced

One of the advantages to living in Asia, is that information flows differently than in the states. I live in Korea, I've been to Afghanistan twice, both after the fall of the Taliban. Nobody there, not the Americans, not the French, not the Afghanis have said anything about this guy other than he WAS a member of the military fighting for Afghanistan.

[kentuck]

24. Is it true...?

Since you have been to Afghanistan, that the Taliban have re-taken control of much of that country? And that Karzai is heavily protected by American forces and is in "control" of Kabul but is seen as a puppet of the CIA and the US in the rest of the country?

[rpannier]

41. Karzai is called

The Mayor of Kabul because that's as far as his power really reaches.

[leftynyc]

52. I agree

He's not a child and he picked up arms against the US. That is treason. I don't need Bush to tell me that.

[Moloch]

113. He was in the Taliban army before the U.S. declared war

on them. It's not like someone can desert the Taliban army whenever they feel like it. While one must question his sanity for going to Afghanistan in the first place, it's not like he had much choice in the matter.

[qwertyMike]

154. He didn't pick up arms against the US

It was vice versa

[qwertyMike]

156. He didn't pick up arms vs the US

Vice versa

[izzie]

27. When He started I do not think we were at war with this group.

Some how I think some thing was wrong about all this. He was a show for the Bush's. They had to get someone in jail fast just as with the prison business. So they could say "see we are doing something" It also took our minds off the Cuba prison. They did the same with the young army women from W. Va. only she did not play.

[0007]

122. I agree. A traitor no. A young man making a bad choice

is happening all the time. Besides, he thought he was to fight the Northern Alliance. The Americans came later.

This was a dog and pony show all the way.

[Raskolnik]

188. Traitor by definition.

I don't care if what he was doing prior to the U.S. invasion. You get one chance to choose sides, and he chose. Poorly.

[mrfrapp]

32. WWII

"To anyone who says, other Americans have done that and not lost their citizenship, I say, "They should HAVE lost it." "


Does that include the Americans who fought for the British armed forces during WWII before the US Government decided to join in?

[rpannier]

42. Yep

If the passports prior to WW II had the same provisions as they do today -- Yes, they should lose their citizenship. But then they probably could have applied to get them back. There is a provision to reapply to get your citizenship.

[mrfrapp]

49. Even though...

Even though the UK wasn't an enemy of the USA and was a close ally despite the neutrality of the USA, you think these men should lose their citizenship simply because the served in the armed forces of a "foreign state". I find that a little callous to be perfectly honest.

For the interested, here's a nice page remembering the American figher pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain. I remember and respect these men even if rpannier doesn't.

[rpannier]

58. I never said I didn't respect them

and I take offense at your generalization. I respect anyone who does something they believe in whether I agree with it or not. It's called taking a stand on principle. Something I wholeheartedly believe in. But, when you know what the consequences of your actions will be, you have to be willing to accept them.
As I said, "I do not know what the rules of having a United States passport were before WW II." and frankly, as far as John Walker Lindh goes, "I don't care."
I admire and respect these men for taking a stand against evil. I personally wouldn't want them to lose their citizenship. If they had violated section 8 then they could have lost it.
As for me, I would have taken it and re-instated it. While that may seem callous and/or wishy washy, I would have done it to prevent people like John Walker Lindh and his apologists from using the arguement, "They didn't lose it." at a later date.
BTW, I would also pull the citizenship of any US Citizen acting as a mercenary around the world.
BTW, one more thing. I went to the site and I'm impressed. They're great men.

[mrfrapp]

77. Okay

I apologise if I caused offence.

[rpannier]

87. No Apology

In retrospect I can see your point. My posting can be perceived as ruthless, unfeeling and uncompromising. There are good men who do good things and should be rewarded. Unfortunately, losers try to shield themselves from being justifiably abused by hiding behind the works of good people -- and that is my concern.
i.e. Lindh's supporters using these great men to keep his citizenship.
Or, mercenaries who terrorize citizens in other countries for money.

[corriger]

81. callous and completely ignorant much less to say complete crap

and complete crap from a legal perspective too.

[rpannier]

90. Not Really.

On Pages 4-5 "While In A Foreign Country" Loss of Citizenship. UNder certain circumstances, you may lose your U.S. citizenship by performing voluntarily... (2) taking an oath or making a declaration to a foreign state; (3) serving in the armed forces of a foreign state...
So legally, he can have his citizenship stripped.
Read your United States passport

[kentuck]

93. But how does that apply if...

the Taliban were not considered a "foreign state"... That was why Bush asked for interpretation of the Geneva Rules...

[rpannier]

94. With shrub

it's a matter of them wanting to have their cake. The reason they did not strip him of citizenship is probably because they were hedging their bets in case this came up. I wonder sometimes if Lindh had been some poor kid (white, black or hispanic) instead of from a family with money, if he wouldn't be on death row now.

[corriger]

I am done with this. You have no idea what inhell you are speaking about.

cheers,

[corriger]

80. frankly

you have no idea what in hell you are even talking about.

[rpannier]

95. Get your passport

Read it. Pages 4 and 5 While In a Foreign Country, Section 8 Loss of US Citizenship spells out clearly how you can give up or lose your citizenship.
As to the men who fought for Britain in WW II, I suggest you read my reply to MrFrapp's original posting. And, as I said before...I do not know what US rules regarding loss of citizenship was before I got my first passport 20 years ago.

[corriger]

105. ah jesus

about like reading law off of a plastic cup

[rpannier]

108. LOL

That's funny and kind of clever...no sarcasm intended. I like that. I'm gonna use it next time I get the chance. I still think I'm right, but that's pretty clever.

[corriger]

115. aside from reading the law yourself

you can speak with anyone having dual-citizenship and you will see just how incorrect your 'legal' interpretation is and as a whole your interpretation is even contrary to the policies of many states including US.

[rpannier]

116. Actually

before I began work as IAS, I had to attend a briefing on my rights and responsibilities while living overseas and that was one of the many points brought up by the US representative -- this was during the Clinton years. They can strip you of your citizenship. But you'll be happy to know you can still have US Tax Liability -- which I find very amusing.
As to dual citizen, a dual citizen can be required to serve in the military of the country he shares citizenship with (Number 9 on Page 5). You are most correct. But, as you know, this does not apply to John Walker Lindh, unless Afghanistan has a provision that is also recognized by the US government.
For the pilots in WWII, I am unfamiliar with the rules of US Citizenship, etc prior to when I got my passport.

[corriger]

119. what is this IAS?

Whatever it is you have been given flawed information.

Well, on your edit, you still have not got it. That is generally correct regarding military services, you are correct as regards the taxation. In fact this is what the americans are more concerned about is global income! Nothing at all to do with all this machismo crap being spewed in this thread. And no-one can 'strip' you of a bloody thing.

[rpannier]

123. Institute for Asian Security

I get paid by the U.S. Government and have since 1998. However, in the interest of protecting myself, since I live overseas, tomorrow, I will drop by the US Embassy in Seoul and ask them. And if you are correct -- Kudos to you, I will have learned something new. (Again no sarcasm -- It's 1:02 am here in Seoul and I'm getting tired.)
I will assume you live in the US, so I will wish you a good afternoon or morning. Take care. And remember,
Vote Kerry in November.

[corriger]

129. have a good night. Now I see why your info is wrong. Speak to a lawyer.

Not your embassy.

[rpannier]

117. hit the button twice

posted my reply 2x sorry

[mistertrickster]

153. I worked overseas for many years and was told that the US does

not recognize dual citizenship with foreign entities.

That is, you can be a citizen of the US, and you can be a citizen of another country (if they permit it). But the US does not recognize your status as a citizen of that other state if you carry an American passport.

[stavka]

142. What about Jewish American Service in the IDF?

[Fear]

34. what about green card holders........

So here we've got the greencard people, they get drafted (YES THEY CAN! - do a search), they do NOT have a US citizenship yet / so they are foreigners from another country, how come it's righteous for them to be drafted / eventhough they are from another country.
Yes there can be Iraqi people / afghan people in the US as well on a green card, what if they get drafted to fight against their own people.....explain.....

[rpannier]

43. They can either

leave the country or renounce their citizenship.
Besides the issue is NOT what they do...I do not have an Iraqi or Afghani passport, nor do I know the rules of owning one. I live in Korea with a US Passport. My U.S. Passport, which is what John Walker Lindh held, says that if you fight for another military you lose your citizenship.

[Fear]

110. yup, I understand what you mean, but I was just making a point...

meaning, the US would force green-card holders to join the army (the draft)......it's kind of measuring with two types of rulers. On the one hand you the US does not allow you to fight for another military / yet it can seize foreigners from other countries for THEIR army.....uhuh.

[rpannier]

120. And I agree with you

It's outrageous and just another example of the double standard we apply.

[amandabeech]

180. What you quoted previously from your passport

indicates that the loss of citizenship or passport is not automatic for those U.S. citizens who fight in foreign armies. "Under certain circumstances, you may" leaves lots of wiggle room. Undoubtedly there are provisions in the statute and regulations that go on at length attempting to cover all circumstances in which you would lose your citizenship, but they are not printed on your passport. In addition, there may be a provision for discretion in the adjudicating officer to not revoke citizenship. In addition, there is undoubtedly a provision for an administrative hearing before revocation as well as judicial review of that administrative decision in the federal courts. Loss of citizenship or revocation of passport is a very serious deprivation of rights and perhaps property, necessitating much procedural protection.

[Guaranteed]

2. Mmmmm I don't think so.

The guy knew what he was doing. The Taliban had a pretty clear anti-US agenda.

On edit: This post could make ya famous. ;)

[lapfog_1]

15. Then I suppose anyone offering them aid

would be considered traitors as well...

you know, like millions of dollars so the Taliban could better
equip their military...

oops.

I'm no fan of John Walker Lindh, but he seems to have been a
easily misled young man (many cult members suffer the same
sort of mind control experience). That being said, he was
old enough and in control of his own destiny. After 9/11 he
could have left BEFORE the US invaded. And he chose to stay
and fight.

However, going back to my original posts... what about those that
sent them millions in foreign aid, and tried to send millions more?

[0007]

124. Then why did we give the Taliban 43 million dollars just months

before 911? And more money for their military?

[Guaranteed]

147. That's something you should ask George Bush. nt

[Cheswick2.0]

3. It seems clear to me that the people who belong in jail are all sitting

in the Whitehouse. Lindh is just another idealistic kid who failed to think clearly about the people he was associated with.
Yes I think he deserves a new trial.

[rpannier]

4. He was over the age of 18...

He should have known better. Idealism or not.

[leftistagitator]

28. I agree

There's a lot of people in jail in our country for literally nothing, and this is the guy people feel sorry for? He was given 20 years for taking up arms against the government, there are people in jail for that long for growing their own weed! He made mistakes, I'm sure, and I can sympathize that he was mixed up in the head with a bizarre theology, but he chose that. He wasn't forced into it as a child like most of the Muslim boys over there we slaughter. He, having liberal parents who supported him and allowed him access to the pantheon of religious values, choose one of the most oppressive and cruel forms of religion still in practice, (Wahhabi Islam). He chose to stand with those who execute gay people, treat women like slaves, and persecute non-believers, despite the fact that he had every reason to know better. And whats more he stood in a foreign army against the US military. That's a serious crime and it deserves a serious punishment. He might of gotten that nullified by the fact that we obviously tortured him, but he signed away the right to do that as part of his plea bargain, so he has no case to stand on legally or morally.

[kentuck]

30. A slightly judgmental post, in my opinion...

Because I'm not sure any of us know to what extent he was studying the religion or what tenets he agreed or disagreed with?? We do not know the extent of his "faith"...

[leftistagitator]

33. Hard to believe he could join up with the Taliban

And not believe in those things. They're like Freepers who had a country, how could you be a friend of theirs and a good person at the same time? They did execute gays, and people who weren't sufficiently Muslim enough. They did keep women illiterate and afraid. What kind of person goes over there and says, "Hey, you guys are all right! How can I join your military?"

[Raskolnik]

192. His beliefs can be inferred by his actions.

Lindh didn't just fall into this situation. He had to go thousands of miles to join these dickheads. He wasn't there to broaden his horizons, and he wasn't there to get to know himself. He was there because he believed enough in what the Taliban stood for to pick up a gun and fight for them.

By the way, would you have as much sympathy for someone who left America in the 30's to join the Nazis? How about someone who came from Europe to join the KKK?

[maxsolomon]

121. he did NOT take up arms against the US government

did he shoot at a US soldier? i've never read a specific allegation that he did.

he joined the taliban before 9-11. around the time we were PAYING them 30 million dollars to "eradicate the poppy crop" or some such blather. he couldn't resign after 9-11.

if/when he fought, he fought against NORTHERN ALLIANCE soldiers. remember how we provided the NA with support & they beat back the taliban? american troops barely fought directly against the taliban.

other than possibly the prison break/battle where the CIA officer was famously killed, i don't believe that JWL was ever engaged in direct action against US forces. he was weak, sick & starving when captured.

take his citizenship, sure, fine. but 20 YEARS? we gave full fledged nazis a break after ww2, so why not the prodigal son?

[Raskolnik]

194. You don't need to actually shoot.

He was in the armed forces of a group that was fighting US forces. That, by definition, is "taking up arms" against the US. You don't actually have to be caught shooting a gun at the time of your capture.

The same would apply if he had planned miltary actions, or supported them logistically.

[Cheswick2.0]

66. clearly you don't know much about 18 year olds

to say "they should have known better" is meaningless. At that age they have very poor impulse control and poor logical thinking skills.
Enjoy your merciless existance.

[rpannier]

96. Actually

Before taking a job in Asia...I taught high school -- senior physics and world history.

[rpannier]

106. Let me rephrase.

I thought about my other post and decided it was arrogant and tacky...I honestly do try to avoid being like that. I did teach high school and I did teach senior physics and world history to freshmen. I do know that 18 year olds are not as good as 40 year olds in processing information rationally -- as a rule.
I'm not saying we should drag Lindh out in the street and beat him about the head and shoulders until he bleeds from the ears. But, what he did was wrong. He needs to be punished for it.
What concerns me is, the outpouring of sympathy for this young man, while there is nothing but contempt for the 19-20 year old guards at Abu Gharib. I think the guards should go to prison for what they did because it was wrong. But there are those who feel sympathy for Lindh and will turn around and say, "The soldiers at Abu Gharib were over 18 and should have known better."
I don't think you can have it both ways. Sympathy for the young men and women in both instances or no-sympathy in both cases. I admit I tend to lean on the side of less sympathy.

[corriger]

139. sheesh the smartest thing said in this entire thread

[MrSlayer]

6. No, he's a traitor.

He should be hung.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

25. Well, if Bush has his way

he'll be able to label anyone he wants a 'traitor', lock them up without Constitutional benefits, and leave them to rot.

[prolesunited]

26. Hung?!?!?

:wtf:

Would you like that in the public square and televised as well?

[Cheswick2.0]

68. I'm sure it will all be clear during the great unmasking on election night

:hi:

[prolesunited]

104. Oh, I get you.

;-)

They're certainly not very sneaky or clever, are they?

[PeaceForever]

37. Interesting the things you hear from many who call themselves "liberal"

I'm against all killing, which I guess makes me an insane, outdated pacifist.

I think it would be an interesting experiment to erase all national borders and not have anymore countries. That way nobody could be a traitor to anything.

[Forkboy]

46. never seen the poster call themselves liberal

and I've never seen a reason to believe that's the case :)

[PeaceForever]

138. Haha good point. n/t

[ElsewheresDaughter]

45. and you call yourself a liberal? "he should be hung" your handle speaks

VOLUMNS MrSlayer666

[Stuckinthebush]

51. Technically...that's "hanged"

But fortunately we aren't as barbaric of a country as we once were....

Aren't we?

[rpannier]

62. Thank You

Someone else knows the word is HANGED. IT's not that important, but still....

[Blue Wally]

73. My dictionary says

"hung" is the past and the past participle of "hang"

hang, hung, hung

the only exception to this is when hang is used in the sense of hanging for execution where the present, past and past participle are:

hang, hanged, hanged.

[Wednesdays]

54. Isn't "hanged" the correct term, rather than "hung?"

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

70. perhaps it was a psycho sexual slip of the keyboard

:shrug:

[Red State Rebel]

109. I agree, he willingly trained and fought against US forces.

No excuses....he is getting what he deserved. He's lucky I wasn't his jury.

[0007]

127. Like Bob? The host with the most?

A little (enzyte) humor if you get the drift
When your extra large 'ya don't play around with a little enzyte (sp)

[kentuck]

7. He didn't go to Afghanistan to fight the US...?

As far as we know. He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think he was a student of Islam that was caught in the trap when the US invaded Afghanistan. Perhaps he had a chance to escape and perhaps he didn't? Jus my opinion. Anyway, the Taliban was not considered a "country".

[Disturbed]

12. The Taliban

High level leaders of the Taliban were guests at Shrub's pig farm a few days before 911. The Taliban were given $43Million by BushCo. Didn't Powell deliver that gift? The Taliban were asked to give up Osama after 911 and said that they would if BushCo would provide proof that Osama was behind the 911 Attack. BushCo refused to provide any proof then attacked the Taliban in Afghanistan.

Lihnd may not have know any of this. I feel that BushCo used him as an example and tried to administer the harshest punishment possible. I believe that his case should be appealed although it may not be possible because he took a deal instead of going to trial.

[corriger]

143. believe it that any deals were more on the side of

hiding the american goverments incompetence, corruption and tenuous position given the realities surrounding the lindh case. Exactly correct regarding the Bush mans pig farm and events then as regards the Taliban.

[Blue_Roses]

97. I think this explanation is by far the most

accurate of all the ones I've heard. If he was a "student of Islam" it's not hard to see how he could get caught up in the Taliban crap.

Who knows, maybe he really is a 30 year-old in disguise who was under deep, deep cover for the CIA:evilgrin: Stranger things have happened! After the "outing" of Valerie Plame you just NEVER know who is a spook and who isn't. :tinfoilhat:

[Speed8098]

8. You're wrong on this one.

He knew what he was doing.

Regardless of how much I hate *, this guy knew we were at war with the Taliban and he chose his team.

[kentuck]

11. How do you know this??

"Regardless of how much I hate *, this guy knew we were at war with the Taliban and he chose his team."

[PeaceForever]

38. No, you're wrong

He went to Afghanistan to fight the Northern Alliance. When the war started, he was caught up in it and didn't do any fighting. According to the US government's indictment, when given the option of becoming a terrorist in the fight against the US, Lindh refused.

[Tellurian]

88. Good Post, PF- what you say is the Truth..

The only reason Lindh is in prison is because they don't want him to talk about Bush and his relationship w/Bin Laden.

[TX-RAT]

53. He was a dumb ass.

He deserves what he gets.

[kentuck]

56. We'd better start building more prisons then...

If being a "dumbass" is the only criteria needed..???

[TX-RAT]

69. You may be right .

The world is full of dangerous dumb ass's

[Cheswick2.0]

72. yup and lots of them come here from FR

they need to get a life.

[0007]

130. .....and midland

[KG]

9. he was a convenient symbol for a cabal that relies

convenience and symbols.

[corriger]

82. exactly a railroaded scapegoat

[Raskolnik]

196. Railroaded? Not hardly.

Typically, in order to be "railroaded", someone must be innocent of the charges against him. Lindh is not.

We can all agree that W is not the good guy in this little play, but I know for damn sure that the group Lindh joined and fought for is an incredibly horrible bunch of people that sought to do us harm.

Keep in mind: that's *us*... you and me.

[DBoon]

201. I heard that if he didn't plead guilty

he was threatened with being sent to Guantanamo without the benefit of a trial (or any other legal protections).

Basically, he was not given the option of pleading innocent and trying to beat the government's case.

[Raskolnik]

202. You "heard"?

Do you have a source for that?

The reality is that he WASN'T sent to Guantanamo. He had access to the courts and a very good lawyer, and he had his day in front of a judge. I suspect the reason he took the plea bargain was because he was guilty as hell and didn't excpect to recieve much sympathy from a jury.

You'll get no argument from me that a distrubing number of people have not had the benefit of the rule of law in our current adventures. Lindh is not one of those people.

[hlthe2b]

10. I'm haunted too....

I keep expecting the press will interview his family, but nothing. Of course we are not hearing from HIM...These facts alone are telling IMO.

I'm not saying he isn't where he belongs. I'm not saying he is innocent. I'm only saying that he was a very convenient "example," for the Bushistas to use and to focus post 911 rage. Given that there were many within the US government and COngress who supported the Taliban despite the obvious abuses they were perpetrating well before 911, I can't help but be extremely concerned that he may have been a very convenient scapegoat. I'm not at all clear that Lindh made an intentional choice to turn on his fellow US citizens. I'm not at all clear that he was guilty of anything more than extremely poor judgement, stupidity, excessive idealism, and bad luck..... I'd like to know for sure, before his entire life is wasted behind bars.

[Mike Niendorff]

16. my opinion:

The John Walker Lindh story was useful to the RW primarily as a device for corralling public debate. Its main function was to intercept and block the use of phrases like "American Taliban" by critics of the far right and its designs. The far right absolutely, positively didn't want such comparisons taking place, and the most basic step in preventing this was to control the language by which such comparisons could be made. The Lindh story was simply the means by which this was accomplished, with much help from a stenographic mass media.

At least that's my opinion. YMMV.


MDN

[Disturbed]

18. Another view

FOR THE RECORD

Now that the John Walker Lindh case has plea bargained out, the case will disappear from the headlines. We may hear little or nothing of it for the next 17 to 20 years.

But the willingness of the U.S. government to enter a plea agreement that dismissed all murder conspiracy and terror charges should keep skeptical eyebrows raised for years to come. After all, our government told us that Lindh had dedicated himself to "killing Americans," that he had participated in a "conspiracy to murder United States nationals," and that he was complicit in the September 11 atrocities.

Why the sudden plea deal that dismissed nine of the most serious counts and finds Lindh guilty only of a regulatory violation of providing services to the Taliban and being armed while doing so?(1) Can we really believe the Department of Justice's explanation that they wished to reserve "limited and very vital resources" for other terrorism cases? Three days after the Lindh plea federal prosecutors announced their intention to try police officer Charles Schwarz, accused of civil rights violations of Haitian immigrant Abner Louima, for the fourth time! There go those resources.
Americans have been grossly misled. As the case gets swept under the rug of political scandal, let the record reflect the following facts:

·After much saber rattling, the government dismissed nine out of ten of its charges.

·Lindh pled to the two least serious charges.

·Lindh began to fight the Northern Alliance months before the United States became involved in the conflict.

·The indictment states that Lindh declined the offer to participate in terror operations against Israel and the United States and chose instead to go to the front lines to fight the Northern Alliance.
There is no evidence that Lindh intended to murder Americans or to assist terrorists in doing so. His sole purpose all along was to prevent the Northern Alliance from regaining control of the country that had given them the boot in 1997.

http://www.freejohnwalker.net/

[hlthe2b]

21. From that website...

under his address: "Mail to Mr. Lindh will be screened by federal authorities."


Now, I know mail to inmates is screened, but still, that statement is chilling, given ASSSKKKKROFT's goons.... I wonder how many would dare write to Lindh?

Thanks for the link, though.

[James T. Kirk]

19. I still think John Walker is a bad guy.

He met the Taliban and met bin Laden and thought their whole enterprise was great.

[PeaceForever]

40. Was that before 9/11 or after?

The reason I ask is that I own a copy of Soldier of Fortune magazine from 2000, in which the author travelled to Afghanistan to live with the Taliban, who at the time were NOT enemies of the US.

[kentuck]

50. As late as April, 2001, the Taliban were not enemies of the US....?

Because we gave them $43 million at that time. Was John Walker Lindh in Afghanistan at that time?

[TX-RAT]

55. Soldier of Fortune magazine ?

Thats some great reading.....NOT

[PeaceForever]

136. LOL, I enjoyed it at the time

I used be very right wing until a couple years ago.

[James T. Kirk]

178. He was bad before and he's still bad.

He knew better than we did the sort of stuff the Taliban and the "Afghan Arabs" were up to.
1. Oppressing women
2. Blowing up non-Islamic religious sites
3. fundamentalist religious training

:)
I have also enjoyed Soldier of Fortune magazine! I used to read it back in the 1980s Rambo-Schwarzenneger era and I really enjoyed it. I took their politcal views with a grain of salt, however. They seemed a little too close to mercenaries and foreign governments... as long as they were anti-commie. I remember the want ads they used to run in the classifieds in the back: "Merc for hire. Any cause but red." and also cool pictures of guns. What a hoot!

I think John Walker, or John Lindh or Suleyman al-Faris, or whatever his name is, is the same as those Tim McVeigh militia folks training out in the wilderness. Nuts!

[General Discontent]

199. Yeah!

He reminds me a lot of this guy:




info:

I'm glad they are both in jail. Oh wait, only liberal hippy kid is...
never mind.

DWolfman

[Hekate]

20. Lindh, Padilla, the new "mall" guy: Beta testing the Patriot Act

The heart, soul, and guts are being ripped out of our judicial system and the Constitution that underlays it. The Bill of Rights is being shredded by John Ashcroft.

Without even the pretense of a fair and speedy trial, locked away with no real access to family or lawyers, with obsessive secrecy in play: how can any of us know what is really going on? I no longer believe anything about anyone that originates with the "Justice" Department.

Thousands of legal aliens were ordered to show up to register anew, and untold numbers of them were immediately locked away for vague reasons. We don't know how many. We don't know why. And only their families (if they have any) know who they are. One was a middle aged diabetic resident of California whose daughter pleaded in vain that he needed medication.

One was a tiny little woman I met myself, an Eastern European who has lived in the US for nearly 40 years. When she got her notice to appear in Los Angeles -- over a hundred miles away -- she decided to tell friends and acquaintences in the Rotary. Immediately a lawyer gave her his card, and advised her to carry a cell phone with her. She described her "interview" as one of tremendous intimidation carried out with mindless stupidity.

The LA Times from time to time reports on some hapless person caught by this insanity on the West Coast.

Quite recently a British free-lance journalist who had visited New York any number of times decided to come see her brother in Los Angeles. The British are special allies of ours, remember? Tourists can come in with just a passport, but journalists need a special visa. I don't know why, they just do. And no one had ever, ever asked her for it before.

When she got to Los Angeles, she declared that she was a free-lance journalist and as soon as the bright minds in Homeland Security determined that she lacked the necessary piece of paper they arrested her. She was handcuffed and marched through the airport. She was refused access to legal assistance or even a phone call to the brother who expected her.

She spent the next 24 hours in a brightly lit steel and glass cell with a steel shelf for a bed, and no food. In the end, she was let go, which is to say her hands were cuffed behind her back and she and one or two other prisoners were transported back to Los Angeles Airport, marched through the terminal, forbidden at all times to communicate with each other. She was finally put aboard an airplane for London, which is to say that, still handcuffed like a dangerous felon, she was escorted down the aisle of the plane and into her seat, where she was at last free of the cuffs. She telephoned her brother from London.

There are many more stories like this, and some of them involve native born US citizens. Our government is going out of its way to terrorize people right here at home. It has gotten to the point that when I heard that Ashcroft was trumpeting this new arrest I had to wonder if there was any validity at all to the charges -- like the columnist Paul Krugman, I believe it is a convenient distraction from the questions of the Senate committee...

Hekate
I want my country back

[Disturbed]

23. The Gestapo of the USA

There are many stories of such cases. I believe that no terrorist attacks have been mounted in the USA for reasons that I cannot imagine. I sure don't believe that none could have occured and that all such have been thwarted by Homeland Security and the FBI.

I also believe that Lihnd was railroaded into pleading out in fear of a life sentence or the death penalty. Also, am wondering why he wasn't taken to Gitmo.

[H2O Man]

22. I think he was a dumb kid.

He made some very poor choices. His being in prison is a direct consequence of his selecting the worst choices available to him. Does he pose a threat to our country? At one point, he did. Now he doesn't. In the future, it may be a question worthy of further consideration. But at this time, there is no force on earth that will get him out of prison.

[Raskolnik]

185. Dumb kid!?

Dumb kids get tattoos on their necks. Dumb kids date a psycho to piss their parents off. Dumb kids get busted with pot in their dorm room. Dumb kids steal a car to joyride when they're sixteen.

Lindh went halfway around the world to join an unbelievably awful group of people that are/were actively trying to bring death and destruction to the United States.

You don't get to rejoin our society for quite a while when you do something like that.

[mistertrickster]

29. It's perfectly understandable that a direction-less young man could

get caught up in cult-like religious movement.

But when that means shooting at your countrymen with a military rifle, I have absolutely no sympathy.

This man, like our homegrown terrorists Tim McVie and the child molesting David Koresh, took up arms against their own government.

Live by the sword and die by it.

[kentuck]

31. You know for a fact he shot at his own countrymen ?

How do you know that?????

[Disturbed]

35. It is astounding!!!

People make judgments without a shred of facts.

Guess that is another reason Amerika is so screwed up. People just believe crap that the Media spoon feeds them.It's understandable why Bush still has millions supporting him. If they would do some research and read books, articles and zines they might know the reality of how Amerika is being sold out to the Multi-corps who are part and parcel of BushCo and the Media. Ignorance is not bliss.

[Tellurian]

83. The only people I know, that make uniformed decisions are Right WingNuts!

They all have low self-esteem issues.

Passport Justice, my arse!

These repukes have never heard of due process, which was denied Lindh.

Fortunately for Lindh, his father is a corporate attorney and

was smart enough to hire a damned good CR lawyer to represent his son.

Otherwise, he would have been executed by now.

[corriger]

85. well said

lol, 'Passport Justice, my arse!' its about like reading warning labels printed on coffee cups in US, "caution hot!"

[Cheswick2.0]

71. Tim McVeigh was created by our gloious American military

it was his experience as a decorated war hero in the first gulf war that sent him over the edge.

Do you know that Lindh shot at anyone?

[mistertrickster]

151. It makes no difference if he shot or didn't shoot--he was carrying

a rifle with a group bent on killing Americans and defending Al Qaeda.

They flushed him out of a rat hole with a bunch of other terrorist nut bags, who were trapped in a fire fight.

This is why the right wing can rant and rave about the "loony left"--we give them ammunition by defending someone who was fucking riding with the Taliban.

Get a clue, people--you start defending terrorists, and you're going to lose the vast majority of the American people.

And justifiably so . . .

"Oh the poor kid got caught up in something he didn't understand (sniff, sniff)" You mean like our soldiers who tortured the Iraqi prisoners? Like the Nazis who burned Jews? Like the Israelis that mowed down the peace protestor with a giant bulldozer?

My ass.

He could have thrown down his weapon and come over to our side any time he wanted.

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty but I wouldn't be too concerned if it were used in this case.

[kentuck]

158. All those prisoners in Abu Graib also had guns....

didn't they? Oh, they were jst picked up on the street. Of course, we had no reason to lie about Taliban John's gun...he had one. Just take my word for it. Have I ever lied to you????

[stavka]

36. Confused young man of faith.

Probably doing too much time, but is where he needs to be now.

I don't think of him as a traitor.

[Warren DeMontague]

39. It's those god-damned

Marin Hot tubs. They breed this sort of thing.



Anyway, I always felt JWL was a scapegoat. Convenient punching bag for Americans who didn't have the energy or intellectual wherewithal to figure out who the real terrorists are, not to mention where they've been getting their support for 10, 20 years. It's typical Asscroft Justice- we can't find any actual terrorists, but we're more than happy to supply an endless chain of sad-sack wannabes and posers that we've managed to scoop up from our surveillance of internet chat rooms... The trail of the Anthax killer went mysteriously cold just about the minute it started pointing towards white people with US Army connections, but we did stop Tommy Chong from putting any more finely crafted glass bongs into the US Mail! That sort of thing. No one has shown me any conclusive evidence that Lindh shot at Americans.. Beyond that, since everything else that this administration has asserted has turned out to be a bald-faced lie, why should we take their charge that he's a "traitor" at face value?

[RBHam]

172. I personally suspect Ashcroft of being part of the problem...

Remember. Right after he was confirmed, he personally expedited the execution of McVeigh. Made sure their could be no connection to whom McVeigh actually worked with. Had a "private meeting" with McVeigh before the brainwashed former Gulf war vet took the needle for the team...

Also, reflect back that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden were already being blamed for the Oklahoma City bombing until McVeigh screwed up and got caught...

I also believe that WTC I was a false flag terror event and that the case against the Blind Sheikh and his followers was a classic case of prosecutorial misconduct.

There is a pattern here - and the aim is to take your rights as American citizens away.

And it's working...

[the Kelly Gang]

44. Afghanistan was not at war with the US? what about US mercenaries that

they never loose their citizenship.

Whatever choice Walker made he was used an example to steal your rights in the US.
The Taliban were prepared to hand over Bin Laden years ago..just because the Taliban were allowing him to live there does not give the right for the US to declare war on Afghanis..everything in this false 'war on terrorism' has been illegal and immoral and rules are set aside for political reasons.

They didn't want the case to go to court because it was as dodgy as they are
Every single aspect of the Bush regime stinks to high heaven. Every part of it is corrupt and illegal.

Walker is just a patsy and if people think he belongs in jail I can give you the names of 1000 US citizens who should hung draawn and quartered compared to him.

[rpannier]

60. Mercenaries should lose their citizenship

It might give those assh**es something to think about.

[Cheswick2.0]

74. Everyone should lose their citizenship... everybody knows what they are

doing and everybody needs something to think about.

[noonwitch]

47. When torture is used, one can never be sure of any outcome

They tortured him and he took a plea, perhaps to avoid further torture? Too many questions are raised by those revelations.

If he did indeed fire at american soldiers, than he is guilty of treaon. If he confessed to doing so after being duck-taped naked into a box, than I question the validity of the confession.

[Tellurian]

84. You're propagating a stupid lie..

He didn't take a plea bargain because he was tortured. The plea bargain was made after most of the charges were dropped against him because the military that arrested him LIED!

[I thought so.]

48. An easy political target.

Remember when we were told that we could never get agents into the terrorists? This guy did it all on his own.
If he had even heard that we were at war with the "Taliban" there was no way out of Afghanistan.
He had no choice and we will never know what he thought at that time.

He was a scapegoat for the regime. That is for sure. As for your tears there are many needed here. As if that does any good.

[LTR]

57. He was a stupid kid, and guilty of treason

Sure, he was young and impressionable, but he honestly knew what he was doing. And he broke the law, plain and simple.

I do think 20 years is a fair sentence. Give him time to think about his actions.

[kentuck]

59. What if you visited Pakistan tomorrow....?

And while you were there, the US declared Pakistan an enemy and attacked them? What if they found you with a unit of Pakistanis that were captured? what would be your defense? "Oh! I am an American!" Oh, no you are not! You are a traitor! You should be charged with treason. You were with the enemy. You took up arms against America. Do you think this is an impossible scenario?

[rpannier]

61. You Make it Sound Like that's what happened to him

That's not what happened. I've been there, talked to people, he was not just some kid who mistakenly rounded up. Get over it.

[ShaneGR]

64. Exactly

He knew damn well what was going on and still fired on US forces.

[Tellurian]

125. Lindh never fired on our troops. if you have proof of that, please post it

Our troops left him for dead, after they locked him and several fighters in the basement of an abandoned house then flooding it to drown them. That was about the time Rumsfeld gave the order "we're taking no prisoners."

Somehow Lindh survived, only to be taken outside bound and gagged by CIA military operatives and severely tortured because he wouldn't admit he was anti-American. About that time, while Lindh was still bound hand and foot our soldiers were surprised by a Taliban assault. The CIA operative that was questioning Lindh was killed in the incident. The government tried to blame him for that too...It soon became obvious the charges were bogus. It was impossible because his hands and feet were tied together the whole time.

The only mistake Lindh made was being at the wrong place, at the wrong time. But then Powell had just dispensed something like $27M to Astan for food in April. How was the kid to know what Bush was thinking?

[kentuck]

135. I think it was a steel container - not an abandoned house...

And many of the prisoners actually suffocated in them. It was a terrible way to go. Thanks for reminding us of Rumsfeld's comments about taking "no prisoners"... :(

[Tellurian]

145. ok, I read a preliminary report that said "basement"...sorry! nt

[kentuck]

75. This sounds like an interesting story that you have....

Who did you talk with that knew John Walker Lindh? How much do you know about the 3000 people that were allegedly massacred? How much do you know about who was rounded up? Tell us more. I am interested.

[LTR]

65. He continued to fight with the Taliban after the start of the war

He knew what he was doing. He was not forced to fight against American troops. He has also crossed paths with members of al Qaeda, including most likely bin Laden himself. Many of them were on FBI most wanted lists at the time, so, by fighting alongside wanted felons, he's aiding and abetting.

Again, he was a stupid kid that made a stupid decision. And he is paying the price right now.

I don't think he deserved the death penalty, but 20 years seems like a fair sentence.

[mistertrickster]

159. Yes, it's ludicrous. He was dressed like a mujaheedin, he was carrying

a rifle and grenades, he studied and prayed with them for months, he helped them plan strategy and apparently believed what they believed.

Stop making excuses and face the fact, he was a traitor to his country--and I don't mean the bogus-Ann-Coulter "traitor" label that the RW throws at anyone who has the temerity to disagree with them.

This is the real deal--aiding and abetting the enemy if not warring against your countrymen.

[kentuck]

161. Sorry, mistertrickster, I didn't realize you were there....

and that you had more info at hand than the rest of us - who only saw him lying naked on a cot - no grenades and no gun. Thanks for clarifying that. We would never have known. We could have thought the government was lying to us again. By the way, do you have nay photos?

[Tellurian]

86. What Acts of Treason would that be?

[LTR]

98. Well, he did fight against America troops

Treason is a word I don't like to throw around casually (unlike some fanatical RW types), but I would consider fighting against American troops in a war in a foreign country to be treasonous.

[kentuck]

101. How do you know he fought against American troops??

Did you see something on TV or read something somewhere that no one has seen? The first pictures that I recall being broadcast were those of him sitting bound, with another "Taliban", and then the stories about being put into the metal containers and flooded with cold water...and that he was supposedly questioned by the CIA agent that was killed by the prisoners? What other info do you have?

[LTR]

103. Well, he was a known fighter, and was wandering around with Afghani troops

Why else would he be there? Hangin' out with his buds?

How else did he show up at the prison? Did he just wander over to the prison for kicks? He knew what he was doing, and knew what was going on.

Get real!

[kentuck]

107. He was there before we went into Afghanistan.

He was fighting the Northern Alliance, was what I read? Is that incorrect? Or did he go that country after American troops were there - with the sole intent of killing Americans? Perhaps he should have caught a Greyhound Bus and went back to Pakistan? Or caught one of the early flights out? Maybe his "buddies" should have helped him get out of the country? Sorry, I don't see things as black or white as you do.

I don't doubt that he was captured with some other people - but I don't know that they were particularly hostile to America?? Jus tas most of the prisoners at Abu Graib were not "fighting" against Americans. The truth is, we don't know the facts. We know what we have heard and what we have read. I'm skeptical of anything we are told by this Adminsitration. I do not think it is wise to believe them...not even about John Walker Lindh...

[LTR]

111. He did go over long before the war

That is well known.

But, as I mentioned before, he was hanging out with terrorists. I'm not talking about Afghani and Taliban soldiers. I'm talking about real terrorists. Al Qaeda terrorists. The same terrorists that were on FBI most wanted lists.

This alone is a criminal offense. He was aiding and abetting the enemy. Plain and simple.

But then again, bin Laden stayed in American hospitals, so is the government also guilty? Food for thought.

Point taken, but Lindh was wrong and stupid. And he got a fair sentence.

[ShaneGR]

63. Traitor

He was captured by American forces. He was interrogated but refused to admit who he was. He participated in an attempted escape that cost american lives.

[kentuck]

76. Seems that I recall him saying he was an "American".....

as soon as he had the strength and opportunity to say so, stretched out naked and bruised, almost unconscious on a cot? Where did I see that? It was just my imagination, I guess?

[ShaneGR]

89. Sorry, there is a timeline involved

1. John was captured, along with a few hundred other Taliban fighters.

2. He was interrogated, on film, by two CIA agents. He refused to answer questions in either language. At that time, he did not acknowledge he was an American.

3. Shortly after, John took part in an uprising, killing dozens including the afforementioned CIA agent.

4. John surrenders along with his friends the Taliban, for the 2nd time.

5. Only after this surrender did John pull out the "I'm an American" card.

He was a traitor. Period.

[corriger]

118. you really ought to go back and fill-out

your 'timeline' and look at what was really occurring. Seems your time-line is rather sparse and one sided so much as to be worthless.

[0007]

133. The timline is indeed flawed, thanks for bringing that out corriger

[Tellurian]

91. What a crock of BS...

A shame you have to hide behind our flag to spew you're false accusations. You bring more shame on our country, than Lindh ever could.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

114. Sure he confessed.

After being tortured. And anybody who accepts a plea a guilt from a tortured man is an unamerican nazi pig.

[Name removed]

128. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tellurian]

140. Post a link to your accusations of SHUT the hell UP!..

On this forum we deal in facts..

here are some facts for you:

"On July 15, after his lawyers negotiated an agreement with government prosecutors, John Walker Lindh pled guilty to violating a 1999 federal regulation banning the provision of services to the Taliban, a felony charge with a maximum sentence of ten years. Because Lindh, as a Taliban soldier, carried grenades and an assault rifle, he agreed to an additional ten years for using a firearm in the commission of a felony."

FYI, all the BS you're expounding here:

"Nothing could be further from the truth. The federal prosecutors had no evidence that Lindh attacked or harmed any American. His constitutional rights were violated from start to finish. In the end, Lindh, his family and lawyers were forced to reach a plea bargain so their client could avoid spending the rest of his life in prison on the basis of trumped-up charges, laid for political purposes by the Bush administration."

Despite the government’s rhetoric about Lindh “choosing terror,” all the government prosecutors could prove is that while in Central Asia studying Islam, Lindh became involved with Islamic fundamentalism and was persuaded during the summer of 2001 to join the Afghan army to defend the Taliban against the rebel Northern Alliance. When Lindh reported to the front lines during the first week of September, he had no reason to suspect that hostilities were about to erupt, with the United States waging an undeclared war against Afghanistan.

"It is highly doubtful Lindh even knew he might be violating a regulation of the US government when he joined the Afghan army. This is the extent of the “crime” for which Lindh was convicted and is to be sentenced to two decades in a federal penitentiary. Even if one were to grant that Lindh was guilty of the charges to which he pled, the gross disparity between his sentence and his “crime” points to the political motivations behind his prosecution."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/lind-j18.shtml

You could do yourself and everyone else here a favor by reading for comprehension, before you start shooting your mouth off and letting everyone know what little command you have of the facts!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. He was a naive kid with flaky parents who had more money than

either brains or heart.

I mean, okay, your teenage son gets interested in Islam and converts. Kids who are raised with no rules and little attention at home frequently are attracted to authoritarian systems, whether it's a strict variety of religion, a strict diet, an extreme political group, or the military. So far, he's still in the normal range.

But giving your 18-year-old the money to go to Yemen (Yemen? Not a cheap trip) by himself without checking into exactly what he's going to be doing there? Most parents wouldn't send their kid to college in the States without questions about what he was going to study, where he was going to live, and why he preferred that particular college. Letting him go to a remote and extremely conservative Islamic country for some vague purpose is just flaky.

The Lindhs practiced "whatever--anything to get the kid out of my hair" parenting.

In the end, they just created a convenient scapegoat for the freeperish elements of American society.

ON EDIT: The knee-jerk macho hostility that some posters are expressing toward this young men is really disappointing. Who caused more damage to the U.S., John Walker Lindh or the morons who tortured and humiliated Iraqi prisoners? Who supported the Taliban more, John Walker Lindh or Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush?

[Dogmudgeon]

78. This is too 'dirty' a story for me to make my mind up

We like to think that we caught John Walker Lindh, he was guilty, and he got what he deserved. And it's probably true that he had taken up arms against Americans, which calls for harsh judgment even if mercy is compounded into the verdict.

However, the story disappeared in a flash, and every a whole lot of details never emerged. It was a frightening curiousity from Day One.

It's never easy to make up one's mind when you have a bad guy who is on the receiving end of some major political shenannigans. As much as I like to maintain my reputation for being an arrogant, opinionated ranter, this case defies easy explanation, and all the signs point to our Wise and Courageous Leader and his Merry Men.

Here's another story that went away with bells on -- the decapitation of Nick Berg. By all rights, "we" shouldn't even like Berg, since he was a Bush supporter. But strange times make for strange alliances.

Add to it other details, like why the returned bodies of soldiers killed in Iraq are hidden from public view; why nearly all the Saddam-era record warehouses have been accidentally and fortuitously burned to the ground; and years of oil company cover-ups of the petrological data of the Iraqi oilfields. (I'm sure I missed a few other details.)

I'm not offering an explanation, merely a suspicion that a lot of stuff is being hidden from view for reasons that dwarf the issue of John Walker Lindh's participation in Jihad.

My opinion of John Walker Lindh isn't particularly high, but this story isn't really about John Walker Lindh, is it?

--bkl

[Zolok]

79. He is an extremist....

but an out group extremist...if the kid had turned Baptist he'd be a "family values crusader" and a featured speaker at the NYC GOP convention this summer.
But he hooked up with the wrong taliban....c'est la guerre.
I don't think he merits the death penalty but then I haven't seen the evidence.

www.chimesatmidnight.blogspot.com

[librechik]

92. he got hosed

a sad political lynching if there ever was one. We are such heinous barbarians--it makes me lose hope.

[Raskolnik]

198. Jeez...

How did he get "hosed"? Are you arguing the facts are incorrect?

And while I agree that some of our actions of late are less than ideal to say the least, Lindh joined up and was fighting with people that DEFINE barbarism. You want heinous? Lindh was fighting for a cause that "heinous" does not even begin to describe.

[rpannier]

99. BTW...congrats

You stirred up a real hornets nest and that's good. People are talking, disagreeing and making excellent points on all sides. We need more posts like these.

[kentuck]

102. That's my forte...

I am told. :)

[DrWeird]

112. Free him.

He's a better American than the US troops that tortured him.

[Raskolnik]

189. False dichotomy.

First, lets agree on a few things: torture is wrong and the people ordering it should be held responsible.

That said, Lindh threw his lot in with the goddamn TALIBAN! He voluntarily went half way aroung the world to advance the cause of a group that stands diametrically opposed nearly every value that you and I cherish.

That is in no way "better".

[bloom]

126. "A First Glimpse at Bush's Tortureshow"

I always thought he was a scapegoat or something...


A First Glimpse at Bush's Tortureshow
John Walker Lindh, Revisited

By DAVE LINDORFF

Now that we know the truth behind how U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan have been treating captured fighters (and captured innocent bystanders), it's time to revisit the case of John Walker Lindh, the so-called "American Taliban fighter" who is now serving 20 years in federal prison. For had Lindh pursued his case in court, instead of settling and getting slapped with a gag order, he might have exposed the whole prisoner abuse scandal two years ago, and spared the U.S.-and a whole lot of abused or slain POWs-the Abu-Ghraib fiasco.

Lindh, it may be recalled, was among a group of Taliban and Al Qaeda fighters captured and later, for the most part, slaughtered in northern Afghanistan by American soldiers and their Northern Alliance allies.

Initially threatened by U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft with being tried as a traitor, Lindh was eventually charged with terrorism, consorting with Al Qaeda, and attempting to kill Americans. But he never went to trial. Instead, he pleaded guilty to just two relatively innocuous charges. But for those two charges-the first of which (carrying a grenade), probably innumerable Americans are guilty of, and the second of which (providing services to an enemy of the U.S.), could more properly be brought against a number of major U.S. corporations--Lindh had the book thrown at him by a compliant federal judge in Virginia. The judge, at the government's request, also hit him with a gag order barring him from talking about his experience. As part of his plea bargain agreement, Lindh was even forced to sign a statement saying: "The defendant agrees that this agreement puts to rest his claims of mistreatment by the United states military, and all claims of mistreatment are withdrawn. The defendant acknowledges that he was not intentionally mistreated by the U.S. military."

This outlandish and over-the-top effort to legally muzzle Lindh appears in a harsh new light now that we know the criminal nature of U.S. prisoner-of-war policies.

<more>


http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff06052004.html

[ronnykmarshall]

131. My opinion:

Enjoy prison, John.

[gator_in_Ontario]

132. I have long admired your posts

How easy it is to forget how we felt when we were young.

So easy to forget the US was on the Taliban's side...as long as they were fighting the evil russians

So easy to forget how the US hated Quadaffi...and now he is our best friend??

John Walker Lindh is the symbol of an America that used to be free...we ALL need to be freed, I think.

[Independent_Minded]

134. if he believed in what he was doing

then trying to absolve him of responsibility belittles whatever cause he felt he was serving.

without responsibility for your actions, the freedom to act is meaningless. whether the result be good or bad.

[kentuck]

141. What are you talking about ??

What cause was he serving ? What specific actions should he be or not be responsible for? Yes, he should be responsible for going to Afghanistan and studying Islam....He should have become a Baptist minister? He should have found a way out of Afghanistan when America invaded. He should never have gotten involved with the Islam religion. Yes, we can say he was responsible for all those bad decisions. What other bad decisions do you know, as a fact, that he should be held accountable for?

[Independent_Minded]

150. What cause was he serving?

Don't know, don't care. He's an adult, and responsible for his own actions, whether the result be good or bad. To attempt to deprive him of that because you sympathize with his plight, is nonetheless a subversion of his freedom to act and be accountable for his actions. without accountability action is meaningless.

[donsu]

137. Yes, it's time to free John

nt

[fujiyama]

144. I view him as a traitor

He joined the "military" of the taliban government, and then was found among those that were fighting the US. I also never really saw a very strong distinction between Al Qaeda and the Taliban.

THat said, since I don't really believe in te death penalty, I would say he does deserve imprisonment for a very long time. He was over 18 and he made his choice.

What amuses me is how this guy has had it much easier than the other two or three American citizens that were found over. Of course, Johnny Walker Lindh is white -- not Hispanic or Arab, so he automatically has it easier in the eyes of the American justice system.

[wurzel]

162. I don't see anything "easy" about a twenty year sentence.

This kid was railroaded by the Justice Department and betrayed by his so call defense council. As far as is admitted even by the government he was fighting the "Northern Alliance" when he was caught up in the American invasion. There is no proof he ever intended to fight against American troops. Of course there was no trial, because the young idiot was talked into taking a plea, so we will never know the truth.

[Tellurian]

146. Here is an objective re-cap of JWL incarceration..

I posted this up thread but it may have been missed..

This article and many others I found refute everything the naysayers making the wild accusations are writing about Lindh..



"On July 15, after his lawyers negotiated an agreement with government prosecutors, John Walker Lindh pled guilty to violating a 1999 federal regulation banning the provision of services to the Taliban, a felony charge with a maximum sentence of ten years. Because Lindh, as a Taliban soldier, carried grenades and an assault rifle, he agreed to an additional ten years for using a firearm in the commission of a felony."

"Nothing could be further from the truth. The federal prosecutors had no evidence that Lindh attacked or harmed any American. His constitutional rights were violated from start to finish. In the end, Lindh, his family and lawyers were forced to reach a plea bargain so their client could avoid spending the rest of his life in prison on the basis of trumped-up charges, laid for political purposes by the Bush administration."

Despite the government’s rhetoric about Lindh “choosing terror,” all the government prosecutors could prove is that while in Central Asia studying Islam, Lindh became involved with Islamic fundamentalism and was persuaded during the summer of 2001 to join the Afghan army to defend the Taliban against the rebel Northern Alliance. When Lindh reported to the front lines during the first week of September, he had no reason to suspect that hostilities were about to erupt, with the United States waging an undeclared war against Afghanistan.

It is highly doubtful Lindh even knew he might be violating a regulation of the US government when he joined the Afghan army. This is the extent of the “crime” for which Lindh was convicted and is to be sentenced to two decades in a federal penitentiary. Even if one were to grant that Lindh was guilty of the charges to which he pled, the gross disparity between his sentence and his “crime” points to the political motivations behind his prosecution.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jul2002/lind-j18.shtml

[mistertrickster]

148. Ride with horse thieves, hang with horse thieves.

What would be convincing is if he hadn't carried the guns and grenades.

I don't usually carry those things around with me, do you?

[kentuck]

149. I never saw guns and grenades....

Who said that? Must have been a credible source ?

[TahitiNut]

152. I regard Lindh as a tragic Hero.

He believed the ideals he was taught as an American ... and wasn't old enough to figure out that we lie to our kids. We lie about "human rights" and we lie about "the brotherhood of man" and we lie about "the global community" and we lie about "the freedom of all people."

He didn't take up arms agsint the US ... the US took up arms against him. The military invasion of Afghanistan was immoral, illegal, and contrary to the principles of civilized nations. The US has interpreted 9-11 as a license to become an outlaw nation.

[Tellurian]

157. Well said, TN..

After you read what Lindh had to agree to in this article. It wouldn't surprise me if Lindh is a test case for parts of the new PAII..

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/lind-o07.shtml

[Raskolnik]

187. No. No way.

I may agree with you about the efficacy of the Afghanistan invasion, but to cast Lindh as any sort of hero for fighting on the side of the Taliban is ludicrous. He fought with them against our soldiers because he DIDN'T believe in the ideals of this country.

Are you at all familiar with the group with which Lindh threw his lot? No one who voluntarily fights for their cause does so because of misguided ideals, they do so because they believe in a repugnant form of civilization.

[TexasSissy]

155. He's a traitor.

Pure and simple. In Afghanistan, with foreign terrorists, who no doubt didn't hesitate to spew venom against Americans? Fighting with them, also?

That's called treason, or being a traitor. Whatever you want to call it, it is NOT free speech or differing with the current administration. I have no sympathy for him. He chose his path.

[Tellurian]

160. Perhaps in your mind only. Not according to the government's findings...

Lindh's conviction was limited to:

"Lindh to plead guilty to one count of providing support to the Taliban. In exchange, the Justice Department dismissed nine other counts, including conspiracy to commit murder and terrorism, charges carrying multiple life sentences. Lindh also admitted to carrying explosives, which allows the government to add another 10 years to the maximum 10-year sentence on the Taliban count."

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/oct2002/lind-o07.shtml

"Harris summed up: “This was an important case because it was the first test of whether a person accused of terrorism can get a fair trial in the United States at this time. With the plea agreement we do not get a definitive answer to that question.”

[wurzel]

164. He didn't "choose" to fight the USA!

By all accounts he was there to fight the Northern Alliance. He just got caught in the middle when we invaded AFTER he got there. This seems to be very conveniently forgotten. He didn't go to fight the USA. It is very doubtful he had a clue we were there until he was captures. Of course there was never a trial so we will never know.

[TahitiNut]

171. How sad ...

It's the tragic symptom of a society in which there's a plague of atrophied souls wherein the victims of such an insidious disease can proclaim "I have no sympathy" with misguided pride.

George W. Bush and cronies are but lesions on the genitals of a nation within which the corruption of this disease infects the body politic. I fear it's terminal - after much suffering.

That so many choose to apply vast quantities of the pancake make-up branded "Christianity" to cover their many lesions merely serves the propagation of this plague.

[TexasSissy]

181. Awww. I'm sorry. I DO feel sympathy for Jeffrey Dahmer,

Ted Bundy, and others who seek to do harm to others. It is not their fault, after all. I'm sure they must have had troubled childhoods, had bad parents. They know not what they do.

And so....it could easily have been, say, me who went to Afghanistan, donned middle eastern attire, grew a beard, changed my religion to Islam (the middle eastern kind), joined an Al Queda training terrorism class, and participated in wars with those sad souls, who stated unequivocably that they thought infidels should die and that they hated America. Poor John Walker Lindh. What WAS I thinking to be so cruel?

What did he say after being caught by the U.S.? Oh, I'm sorry....I didn't know Jihad meant anti-Americanism or terrorism. Geez whiz.

For gosh sakes, HE WAS A SOLDIER IN THE TALIBAN ARMY....FIGHTING AGAINST U.S. FORCES. An American CIA officer was killed. He had trained at an Al Queda training camp. He had sworn allegiance, given an oath to, Jihad. He made the oath to Al Qaeda.

Like so many other criminals, once caught he is suddenly sorry and says he didn't fully understand the circumstances. He said he didn't understand what Jihad was. Yeah, right. And pigs fly. And the moon is made of cheese.

He made a plea deal and got 20 years. He's lucky. And we're lucky he was caught. With Americans like this, we don't really need enemies. He's a criminal...like most criminals, he has a "pity me" story. I'm saving my sympathy for the CIA officer who was killed.

[mistertrickster]

163. Okay, for all you "give me proof" bleeding hearts.

BBC
John Walker was captured after a bloody prison revolt

The story of 20-year-old John Walker Lindh, known as the "American Taleban", has shocked America.

Captured by US forces in Afghanistan with a group of Taleban and al-Qaeda fighters who survived the bloody Mazar-e-Sharif revolt, Mr Walker now faces charges of conspiring to kill US nationals and aiding Osama Bin Laden's al-Qaeda network.

(snip)

(Paraphrase: after going to Yemen and then Pakistan, he joined a Kashmiri military group.)

There he was then sent for seven weeks to an al-Qaeda training camp, where he is said to have met Osama Bin Laden who thanked him for taking part in the jihad.

(snip)

Asked by a reporter about his experience in Afghanistan, he replied: "It's exactly what I thought it would be."

Did he think he had been fighting on the right side?

"Definitely," was the answer.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1779455.stm

******

Fer gosh sakes, what do you need? His hand holding a bloody knife in the back of a US soldier?

This is it. I've had enough of this silliness.

You know, sometimes people who don't like "Amerika" are wrong too.

Jeez . . .

[kentuck]

165. Whose byline is on that story ?

Who wrote it ? Obviously he interviewed JWL in person? And appears to believe in what he was doing, no doubt. I had read that before.

[wurzel]

166. I'm not a "bleeding heart" of any kind.

But look at your own "report"! WHEN did Lindh join these groups. Were they considered as "Terrorist" groups THEN? If so our own government THAT SUPPORTED the Taliban need twenty year sentences too. WHEN did Bin Laden "thank him for taking part in the Jihad". The Jihad was not soley confined to 911. Bin Laden was a Saudi. Remember them? The people who were provided planes by the US government to leave the county on 9-12? WHAT experience in Afghanistan did Lindh think "was exactly as he thought it would be"? Did he think he was on the right side? Probably, because he was there to fight the NORTHERN ALLIANCE. Since he was never tried I'm not sure he had a clue what 911 was. It was the fact that he was never tried that is the most disturbing thing about this. WE JUST DON'T KNOW WHAT LINDH KNEW and WHEN HE KNEW IT.

[LTR]

179. Considering bin Laden was at the top of the FBI "Most Wanted" list...

...for many years prior, and al Qaeda was well known at the time as one of the most notorious terrorist groups in the world, I would consider this aiding and abetting.

Or don't you remember the 1993 WTC and the USS Cole bombings?

And yes, Lindh was tried. Unfortunately, he was one of the only ones to get a trial.

[wurzel]

183. You may know who is on "FBI most wanted list"

I haven't got a clue. And in 1993 Lindh must have been about ten years old!

[TahitiNut]

167. Mazar-i-Sharif made Abu Ghraib look like nursery school

Mass killings, torture, extremes of deprivation and abuse ran rampant at Mazar-i-Sharif. The war crimes and crimes against humanity perpetrated at Mazar-i-Sharif would gag a maggot.

People who condone US such atrocities (even by supporting the punishment of those who opposed it) have a gag reflex less developed than fly larvae.

Congratulations when the foo shits.

:puke:

[mistertrickster]

173. Thanks for the edit . . .

:)


And btw, I guess that would my cue to use you all's argument--"were you there?" "how the hell do you know what happened at Mazar Al Sharif?" "are you so stupid as to believe big corporate media?"

I don't think that really advances the argument, so I won't use it.

I will use this one though:

That the US commits atrocities during wartime in no way justifies violent opposition by Americans who have pledged allegiance to a much more oppressive regime--the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[TahitiNut]

174. And use of the epithet "bleeding hearts" is not?

Congratulations on your use of demeaning neoconservative rhetoric to "advance your case." Why not try modeling what you expect of others? Hmmmm?

:puke: :puke: :puke:

[mistertrickster]

175. It was "shorthand"--I regret if anybody found it offensive.

I didn't intend for it to be demeaning.

Actually, I'm kind of a bleeding heart, I'd say.

Not in this instance, but in general . . .

[ieoeja]

168. He was no traitor.

He joined the Taliban as they were preparing their final assault on the Northern Alliance. He did not join them to fight the United States. So he was not a traitor for joining the Taliban.

Even if he did decide to fight the United States, so what? Last I heard we are free to leave the United States anytime we so choose. Emigration is hardly treason, even if you take up arms for your new country against your old. Benedict Arnold deciding to quit the Colonial Army and join the British was not treason. Benedict Arnold using his position within the Colonial Army in an attempt to betray West Point WAS.


On the other hand, the Taliban ranks as one of the worst regimes of their time. They and their supporters are guilty of crimes against humanity far worse than treason. Sometimes I think I am the only person on DU who remembers LIBERALS screaming for the destruction of the Taliban prior to 9-11.

I have a sneaky suspicion that people unaware of this particular issue before 9-11 do not realize what the Taliban did. I imagine they hear of the "honor killings", stonings and bans on education and medical attention for Afghan women and think, "that had been a part of their culture for centuries".

It hadn't.

Under the constitutional monarchy before the Soviet sponsored coup, the Soviet government, and the democratically elected government between the Soviets and the Taliban's invasion of Kabul, Kabul and large portions of Afghanistan possessed a modern, secular, enlightened society. The women of Afghanistan were a lot more like the women of New York city than like the women of Saudi Arabia. These women were not raised in the culture forced upon them by the Taliban. They didn't know the rules. And many of them were too independant and strong-willed to adjust. A city, a country, full of educated professional women had their lives stripped from them while we sat on our hands and did nothing.

And John Walker Lindh must have thought that was just dandy to have joined forces with those monsters. I have little sympathy for the boy.

[kentuck]

170. You are right about the Taliban being a very unsympathetic group...

I would agree on that point.

[eridani]

177. Not guilty of a damn thing but being born 15 years too late

That he is in prison is a travesty, when hundreds of US government agents who recruited thousands like him are running around loose.

http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/Archive/CIA_Created_Osama.htm

According to Ahmed Rashid, a correspondent for the Far Eastern Economic Review, in 1986 CIA chief William Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI proposal to recruit from around the world to join the Afghan jihad. At least 100,000 Islamic militants flocked to Pakistan between 1982 and 1992 (some 60,000 attended fundamentalist schools in Pakistan without necessarily taking part in the fighting).

John Cooley, a former journalist with the US ABC television network and author of Unholy Wars: Afghanistan, America and International Terrorism, has revealed that Muslims recruited in the US for the mujaheddin were sent to Camp Peary, the CIA's spy training camp in Virginia, where young Afghans, Arabs from Egypt and Jordan, and even some African-American “black Muslims” were taught “sabotage skills”.

The November 1, 1998, British Independent reported that one of those charged with the 1998 bombings of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania, Ali Mohammed, had trained “bin Laden's operatives” in 1989.
These “operatives” were recruited at the al Kifah Refugee Centre in Brooklyn, New York, given paramilitary training in the New York area and then sent to Afghanistan with US assistance to join Hekmatyar's forces. Mohammed was a member of the US army's elite Green Berets.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

[ieoeja]

182. The Mujaheddin government sucked too.

But what does that have to do with the Taliban, an enemy who displaced them?

[supernova]

169. A kid in the wrong place at the wrong time

From what little I saw of him, he didn't go to Afghanistan with the intention of fighting against the US. He wanted to study Islam and Arabic. He got there first, IOW. He seemes to have been desperate to find a place to fit in.

Even at that, I haven't really seen anyone say he was actively fighting when the US picked him up.

It's a sad story all the way around. I feel badly for him and his family. A complete waste of a life.

[Tellurian]

176. kick

[Djinn]

184. This thread + JWL in general

reminds me of David Hicks - the Australian captured in Afghanistan and held in Gitmo without charge for over two years now.

Like JWL he was an idealistic (tho not really educated) kid who after leaving teh Australian army fought with Muslim rebels in Kosovo, got a taste for Islam and was trying to find some meaning to life, he beleived he'd found it in Islam and went, first to Pakistan (to learn and fight with Muslims in Kashmir) and then to Afghanistan.

He has very recently been made aware of which charges the US government is accusing him of, one of which is "aiding the enemy" - during the time in which David was training with and fighting with the Taliban the US government and US corporations were providing a hell of lot more aid to the Taliban (monetarily and politically as they tried to negotiate a pipeline deal) than David ever could have hoped to.

It is ridiculous to charge anyone with "terrorism" offences that relate to the period prior to 9/11 unless you also indict the government and certain energy industry CEO's.

[David Zephyr]

186. It Tears At My Soul, Too.

Travesty of justice, Kentuck.

:hi:

[Raskolnik]

190. How is it a travesty of justice?

Regardless of how we might feel about the validity of W's wars, Lindh chose his side when he joined the Taliban.

He wasn't there to study Islam, he was there to join an evil goddamn group of people who actively sought to do the U.S. harm.

[David Zephyr]

191. Here's What the Constitution Says, Raskolnik

Amendment VIII: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

If the the Bush Administration can nod with approval the unbelievable "pardoning" by President Pervez Musharraf of Pakistani physicist, Abdul Qadeer Khan ---who admitted peddling who nuclear weapons equipment and expertise to Iran, Libya and North Korea --- then what on earth is John Lindh doing in prison for life?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=612226#612575

[Raskolnik]

193. Not exactly relevant.

First of all, you should at least be aware of the actual sentence: 20 yrs, NOT life.

Second, if this discussion was about whether Lindh should be tortured, or in some way punished in a cruel or unusual way, then the 8th Amendment would come into effect. As it is, it is beside the point. He has been sentenced to incarceration, which does not fit our current definitions of C & U punishment.

Third, no shit those pardons of nuclear peddlers were bad news. Lots of pardons are. How does the fact that those pardons were innapropriate change the fact that Lindh took up arms against the U.S.?

[David Zephyr]

195. He Never "Took Up Arms Against the U.S."

Dan Burton fired bullets into Watermellons claiming they were President Bill Clinton's head.

If you feel it is just for this boy to be in prison for twenty years (not life), then so be it.

I hope you feel a lot safer knowing he's locked away.

[Raskolnik]

197. I don't think you know what that means...

He was a part of an army that was actively fighting U.S. soldiers. What the hell you think taking up arms means?

I don't take any pleasure in the fact that he is losing a good portion of his life in prison. I feel sympathy for him as a fellow human being in a terrible place. His being in jail isn't just about keeping us safe, however, its also about punishment for his deeds.

What I understand is that he chose his side, and it wasn't the one you and I are on. He chose to join an incredibly awful group that stands in opposition to nearly everything you and I value.

[DBoon]

200. He's an idiot

But after a few years in prison, I see no reason not to pardon him.