Can anyone explain why the Catholic Church has become conservative

[cally]

I do not understand. The Catholic Church used to stand for the people in Latin America, for civil rights, and for social justice. The church has always had conservative stands against birth control and choice but I never expected what's happening now.

The Catholic Church is campaigning against a Catholic nominee for a fundamentalist that hates Catholics????? To further the irony, Kerry may very well choose a Catholic VP and then the Catholic Church will campaign against two faithful Catholics. :wtf:

[rpannier]

1. Because the Pope picks

the Cardinals, Arch-bishops and bishops. He picks very conservative like-minded people.

[SharonAnn]

4. Because the Opus Deit group is controlling things in Rome and

in many places around the world.

They were strongly supported by Franco in Spain, Pinochet in Chile, and Fujimori in Peru. Notice any patterns?

They believe that women are second to men and that followers should unquestioningly obey those in authority.

[LittleApple81]

14. The Opus Dei group is scary.... I was invited to join, eons ago.

I was 18 but already worked as the "Cultural Activities" coordinator for an educational institution. I had a friend who was a journalist in my country; one day she invited me to "tea and crumpets". I noticed she lived in a very nice house, with other women of the same social class (high - medium high) and they had a "prayer period" presided by a priest after Tea and Crumpets... so I guess it was Tea, and Crumpets, and Priest...I was not told beforehand about the priest.
Anyhow, after we were finished, she started asking me if I would like to join the Opus Dei... I asked "What is that?" She said it was a Catholic institution where lay people made vows of chastity and poverty but stayed working in the "real world" to be able to give spiritual and moral direction by example. I said "sorry, not interested." frankly, the chastity bit was not very attractive and I was already poor. After I found out what they really do, I was amazed they wanted a POOR person like me to join!

[I thought so.]

29. Yes indeed.

Ya spelled it wrong but you got it right. Clerance Thomas is there . Anton Scalia is too. The worst traitor spy we have ever had was one also.
Glad you know,spread the word.

[sangh0]

2. It's the same RC Church

They have been speaking out for social justice without stopping. Don't believe what the right-wing tells you. They want you to think The Church is with them, but the truth is only a minority of The Church agrees with them.

The Catholic Church is NOT campaigning against Kerry. A handful of bishops, out of the hundreds in the US, are campaigning against Kerry. The overwhelming majority of American bishops have rejected the calls to withold communion from Kerry.

[cally]

6. Unless the Catholic Church condemns this

handful of bishops than they are complicit in this. Most think this is the entire Catholic Church. Allowing these, possibly rogue, bishops to continue this through the election will keep this issue alive in Catholic voters minds.

[sangh0]

11. Many Bishops have condemned it

Most think this is the entire Catholic Church.

That's because the Republican owned media keeps saying that. I suggest you not contribute to their efforts by repeating it.

Think about it! They (the Repukes) WANT you to think it's the entire RC Church. Will you cooperate with that?

[cally]

17. Then the Catholic Church has to speak out

I know that it's a handful of bishops. I personally resent the suggestion I am furthering the RW cause by asking a question.

[sangh0]

18. Churches are buildings. They have no voice.

Bishops have voices, and thet have been speaking out about this.

I personally resent the suggestion I am furthering the RW cause by asking a question

Then you misunderstood. The Repukes want people to believe that the entire RC Church agrees with them. If the Repukes want you to believe something, then you should believe the opposite.

It's about belief, not about asking questions. Besides, I didn't imply you were helping the Repukes. I asked a question:

Think about it! They (the Repukes) WANT you to think it's the entire RC Church. Will you cooperate with that?

"Will you" (along with the question mark at the end of that sentence) strongly suggests that it's a question.

[cally]

19. Please re-read your last post

I'm sure if you take a moment to think about what you wrote then you will see the errors in it.

Repeat....I never said all bishops supported this. Read my posts above.

Churches are buildings. OK. It is common to use the word church to describe the faith.

[sangh0]

32. The church has been speaking out

As I said in my last post, most bishops have said they disagree with this. It's just a few (right-wing) bishops.

and you should re-read what you wrote:

Unless the Catholic Church condemns this handful of bishops than they are complicit in this

They have condemned this

[Padraig18]

34. Thank you.

It's nice to read a factual statement, rather than the usual 'pile on' stuff.

[Killarney]

3. I think it depends on where

I think the Catholics in Boston and Chicago, etc are still dems.

[mstrsplinter326]

5. the catholic church also used to support the regaining of the holy land

organized religion has a bad, f'ed up history. to trust that it has magically been made perfect or even good, in my opinion, is folly. after 4 thousand years of supporting unequal rights, the wealth-ifing process called 'giving,' the crusades, it's time to realize the organized church is not looking out for the best interests of its followers.

[Beware the Beast Man]

27. Okay, I'd love to get into apologetics-

but I'm at work on my lunch break, and I do not have the reference tools at my disposal. But if I may correct you, the Church as an organization has only been around for about 1800 years, not 4000. The Church does not claim to be perfect, that has been established, especially in the last 40 years. The Church has also had its share of atrocities, all inexcuseable. Some, sadly, still go on today. But all too often folks seem to forget that those within the Church have tried to do good- whether it's promoting literacy, clothing and feeding the poor, giving shelter to Jews who were victims of pogroms (yes, some bishops actually helped to save Jews back in the 11th Century), etc. etc. Like I said, I'd love to give specific examples, but I can't at this time. I'm just growing tired of the "well they started the Crusades, so the Church is bad" rhetoric. I know that is a generalization, but I've been putting up with a lot of Catholic bashing on the left as well as the right. It's disconcerting.

[seabeyond]

7. yes they did, it was a half way cool religion i could respect

now........and they wonder why religion is so down in polls.

i wouldnt put my children into one of the controlling cult like enviroments for spiritual growth for anything in the world. i see it doing the opposite. a huge bushie boy is giving us, and those in power on church is embracing without site of future of what they create

[ElectroPrincess]

10. Money, Power and Influence Peddling

The Radical Right Wingers have hijacked the Catholic Church through influence of the Right Wing USA Bishops. There are a significant number of left leaning Democratic Parish Members AND especially the orders of Priest's who take a vow of poverty. Unfortunately, we can't get past the guards at the USA's hierarchy on "Country Club Lane" to have our voices heard.

This is not the behavior of Priests that I know and love. These men are representative of a *few* too powerful Radical Right Wingers of the USA Catholic Hierarchy.

[seabeyond]

15. are you catholic? and in respect and love

calif growing up all catholic friends, living in texas, married a catholic and my only two friends up til recent were catholic. the only three catholics in town, grinnin

i am telling my catholic friends, tis theirs to be heard. does me no good to speak out, i cannot do, not being catholic. they need to heal their religion, take it back.

and in all respect when the time comes and i see the parishners owning their religion once again, i can sit in peace in their religion, though it isnt mine.

[Az]

8. Humanae Vitae

In 1968 the papal doctrine Humanae Vitae was adopted. This was the compulsary papal decree that birth control and abortion were absolutely forbidden by the Church.

In 1973 Roe V Wade came down. Two years later the American Catholic Bishops issued the Pastoral Plan for Pro-Life Activities. This was the blueprint for manipulating the American legal system. They set themself on a path to overturn Roe V Wade.

The Catholic Church over the years has weathered many social changes and scientific revolutions. It knows trouble when it sees it. Most of the turmoil it has dealt with collided with unofficial Church positions. Evolution as an example was long opposed but there were no official Church pronouncements on the matter from the Pope. It was for this reason that a few years ago the Pope was able to acknowledge that Evolution was in fact a fact.

But The Humanae Vitae created a problem. It was the official Papal decree. And though not officially part of the claim of Papal Infallibility it comes perilously close.

The Vatican is aware of the force social change can bring. It had drawn the line in the sand on birth control and abortion. America being the social force we are could not be allowed to popularise the use of either. If the US championed these tools the world would be swept over with their use. So they set about a path to change American politics.

To this end they sent representitives into the US. Paul Weyrich, a Catholic activist recruited Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and other Protestant into the cause. He showed them how they could use the abortion issue as a fund drive and recruitment tool.

For the most part US Catholics tend to be their own critter. Slightly removed from the Vatican. But the Vatican's focus on the US continues to be focused on overturning Roe V Wade and changing our culture. To this end they have sided with the Republicans as the most likely to aid them in their chosen path. The religious right is a handy tool for them to create vocal opposition to Choice.

[alcuno]

9. They are? The Church is campaigning against a Catholic nominee?

I'm a practicing Catholic and I must have missed that memo.

[proud patriot]

12. They forget who burnt their churches to the ground

In American History my Irish and Scottish family
came to America . We were treated like scum .
We were Catholic , the "christians" they liked to call
themselves Natives but were not Native , they beat us ,
they burned our places of worship , we became endentured
servants , we overcame great bias .

[cally]

37. I know...that's part of what amazes me

In a short period of time, many Catholics are willing to support the same groups that oppressed them. A generation ago, Catholics supported Kennedy and were thrilled a fellow Catholic became President.

[JHB]

13. Google "Pope John Paul I"

I may not wear a tinfoil hat, but that doesn't mean I don't keep some around just in case.

[Democracy Died 2004]

16. Are we talking

about the same church that sent religious warriors to kill thousands<maybe millions> of people because they had different religious beliefs? So what's the change you're talking about?

[deportivoI]

20. US Catholic Church

If you go to Spain and Italy it is a whole different story

[porphyrian]

21. Most Businesses Support Republicans

I'm surprised it took the Church so long to sign on.

[Beware the Beast Man]

22. Conservative clerics are being called out-

Take a look at National Catholic Reporter or the like, and you will see that Catholics differ in their political beliefs. There are debates within the church over the denial of communion to pro-choice officials, and debates ofver the justness of the war on terror.

I lean liberal, of course, so it makes it very difficult to hear some clerics say that abortion & gay rights are the Numero Uno, be all end all issues in picking a candidate. I just can't do that. To me there is more riding on this election than those two issues. The war, the economy, education, healthcare, the enviroment and the erosion of basic civil rights concern me the most. That "cafeteria Catholic" nonsense you hear is a tool of the Right-wing to ostracize liberal-leaning Catholics.

[Xithras]

23. Abortion & Gays

The Catholic Church is liberal on many subjects, but it has always opposed the mainstreaming of homosexuality and has always considered abortion to be cold blooded murder.

The RCC hasn't become more conservative, it's simply that the issues that the church has always been conservative on have come to the forefront and are now getting all the news.

[playahata1]

24. Even with Vatican II, liberation theology, and all the good works

it has done with regards to the poor, historically the Church has ALWAYS been conservative. NOTHING moves without the approval of Rome.

[THUNDER HANDS]

25. because the Church is corrupt

It's a mafia. Always has been. At various points in time it's had better PR though.

[I thought so.]

26. Oh please!

The Catholic Church never supported Latin American social justice.
its an ugly institution. The man that covered up child rape is now big time in the Vatican.
This "church" is against birth control. The pope loves Opus Dei. Among the members are the worst traitor in all of our history. Anton Scalia, Clearance Thomas are also in the pigpen. They believe in self abuse. The love Fransisco Franco. The moran that founded this up for sainthood. The "church" has always been fascist.

[PATRICK]

38. Closer to the truth here

The Church has always been conservative and suspicious of change or reforms. Always is a long time, but at least since it organized through the dark ages.

Through history it has also shed, from bitter, shameful experience, some of the hard right items now idiotically enjoyed by the American Christian Constructionists. It has been oppressor and the oppressed, from top to bottom. It strives mostly for the middle and a safety which is actually less healthy than controversy, simply because of past failures.

It has also adapted some progressive social stands and populist causes(usually starting with a few, opposed thinkers). In the main the world changes too fast for the Church to adapt globally all at once under any principle that "progress" must be good or even progress.

In the shakedown Church leadership has failed as much as any other institution of leadership, its people no different than anyone else, encompassing all variety, all locales. No more than Gorbachev "liberated" Russia and made peace can the stingy conservatism of our world's leaders can be called forward and ideal. The result has been its place in and against or for all the current evils of the day. This includes, the laity, not just the clerical leadership.

All the scapegoats can line up in front of a huge mirror and take small comfort in the communal shame. All the indignant purists can line up in front of the same mirror and look smug for all the good that will do. Opus Dei. Puffed up Catholic freemasons no more the root of all evil than the Knights of Columbus. It is not conservatism that is the problem, but the basics and basic individual responsibility to build the communities we live in. It needs more critical vitality and action.

Why is the Church so conservative? Because those people are the most comfortable in a true moral vacuum. They can always keep warm by firing up small virtues and small people. When the Church was vibrant during the Vatican II aftermath(despite the stifling moderation of "enthused" or antagonistic bishops) it set liberal progress in motion that still is going forward today. Reaction set in with fear and that vacuum, but senile conservatism has no moral life for a sustained future, despite the threat of disintegrating "liberal" ways that are only the first baby steps of the Spirit.

In particular, the choice of Popes has deliberately been constant in putting the breaks on what the "caretaker" Pope John XXII set in inexorable motion. The Polish Pope's particular background was to be a kind of liberating conservatism from the basic slavery of the atheistic Soviet bloc, but it was alsoto avoid the Italian bank scandals and other introverted disasters while setting the house strongly in order.

No Pope ever really trusted the American version of any ideology, but one grows sick very fast of whatever partial linkage exists between the two today to the detriment of our nation and our Church. In effect though they are "fundamentally" at war.
That the collaborating effects upon the Church have been more detrimental than the stand against the war, both life sapping and threatening, I hope will not be lost upon the next group to elect a Pope, no matter if they are handpicked by the present occupant who seems determined to outlive his predecessor's more liberal choices.

Please, when we talk about the Church remember what that word comprises? Bush is not THE U.S. either. The three Churches in Latin America for example is a simple but unremarked basis for discussing politics in the Church there regarding class ideology and where hierarchical power lies. As for particular abuses, the Church is no different than any human grouping from having "done it all" with characteristic distinctions.

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. Exactly - the Catholic Church has been conservative

since they gained major power, and a unified direction, with the Roman emperor Constantine and the Council of Nicea - 325 AD. That set them on the way to being the official religion of the Roman Empire, and its successors. Any hierarchical structure that holds power is going to be conservative - wanting to keep the status quo. It happened in the Soviet Union, for heaven's sake.

As Patrick says, it (ie the hierarchy) is slowly dropping some of the aspects of conservative power - like acceptance of war as an everyday part of international politics. But it is still very slow to reform - the total rejection of women priests, or married ones, seems to be based on the argument "that's how we've always done it, and it would confuse people if we changed - we need the congregation to know that we're in charge, and we're slightly different from you".

Parts of the church (at a size of about a billion, it's not surprising there's a bit of rebellion) have experimented with things like liberation theology, but that's still the minority.

With 1700 years behind it, it's the oldest significant organisation in the world. It's outlasted ideas like the Divine Right of Kings. Conservatives who trace their ideas to John Locke are johnny-come-latelys to the Catholics.

[Cheswick2.0]

28. the same reason other churches have

There is a dominionist movement and they have a catholic arm.

[Beware the Beast Man]

30. OK, let's define "dominion"

Yes, Catholics believe that man has "dominion" over the earth. That is not carte blanche for man to plunder the Earth until there is nothing left. It means that we are allowed to reap what the planet gives us, but we must have respect for the environment as well.

Here's a snip from the catechism:

In God's plan man and woman have the vocation of 'subduing' the earth as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator "who loves everything that exists," to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God entrusted to them. (No. 373.)

[Hell Hath No Fury]

31. Backlash....

As a gal raised RC in the 60s, there was a movement within the American RCC culture that was leading to an evolution from the old school RCC stuff. That's when we saw the birth of the social justice movement, the recognizing women as something other than birthin' machines, and all the minor things (fish on Fridays, head covered in church, Latin mass, priest facing forward, kiss of peace, communion in hand) that were done away with or changed as a means to make the experince more accessable to the congregation.

Over time, this "liberalization" was moving the American RCC towards a place that the Vatican feared, and we saw the response in the picking of this Pope. As socially proactive as he was, he was still very conservative in every other way, much more in keeping with the old school RCC.

Since his term as Pope started, we have seen those who shared those strict beliefs rise within the RCC and be appointed to all the positions of power.

The Vatican is as political as any government, and what we see is a group who is trying to maintain control of power and doctrine.

I think it is inevitable that here will be a split in the RCC, between those who wish to evolve and those who wish to keep the RCC embedded in amber.

[Beware the Beast Man]

33. Good point

For as much Church-defending as I have done on this thread, you nailed it. After Vatican II, it seems the Church as a whole was making a progressive turn, then they appoint JP2, who's a bit old-school. Yes, he has tried to make amends for the RCC's past mistakes, but it is a bit of a step backward.

[cally]

35. The backlash theory makes sense

to me. More liberal theologians were gaining power in the church and conservatives were losing control.

I agree that I think there will be a split in the church or that many will leave the faith and join another faith.

[Beware the Beast Man]

36. It's pretty much happened already

Good old Mel Gibson belongs to a sect that does not observe the reforms that were established by Vatican II. His is a very strict, old-world style of belief (i.e. only Latin during masses, Protestants are going to Hell, etc).

[Hell Hath No Fury]

43. BTW...

:hi:

Missed you up in Tahoe -- how did the performance go???

Anything in the works for the 4th???

[Beware the Beast Man]

39. Conservative???

Here are some editorials in the past issues of the National Catholic Reporter:

On wealth & the poor in America:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004b/042304/042304m.htm

On accountability in the sex abuse scandals:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004b/041604/041604t.htm

On Richard Clarke:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004b/040204/040204p.htm

On Kerry and the Communion flap:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004b/043004/043004r.htm

Bush Again:
http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives2/2004b/052804/052804y.php

You see, you just can't paint an organization with one broad stroke.

[Az]

42. Hence the reason Humanae Vitae has dominated the Vatican's politics

Many positions of the Vatican's could easily be described as liberal. But the critical nature of their pronouncements about procreation elevate their need to focus on them above the rest. Thus while George W Bush is the rootenist tootenist executioner this nation has seen in a long time, the Pope still gives him his blessing because George hates the birth control and choice.

It is this that has brought the Vatican (not necissarily all Catholics) in line with the religious right.

[Beware the Beast Man]

44. If those RW Catholics only knew (or would wise up to the fact)

that the fundamentalist religious Right is no friend of the Catholic Church. According to them, Catholics are one of the many groups that will be left behind in the so-called "rapture". Some ally, huh?

[Az]

48. Take a look at Israel

The reason Pat Robertson and other hardline protestants support Israel is because they believe that the Jews have to be rounded up there for when the real slaughter begins. It isn't because they believe the Jews are right. Its because it serves their beliefs.

There is a lot of complicity between various sects even though they each believe the other is doomed. It depends on who they see as the greatest threat to them. For many years liberals and science have given most sects a good reason to band together despite the differences that brought about schisms in the past.

It is interesting to watch what happens when liberal or scientific threats are removed from such groupings. They quickly return to their bickering. Which is why school prayer and the 10 commandments will likely always fail. If they are able to beat down the critics of school prayer and the commandments they are instantly faced with the issue of who's prayers and commandments to go with.

[cally]

45. By allowing some bishops to enter

election politics and not taking an official church stance, than I think the chunch is de facto agreeing with the rogue bishops. Unfortunately, the National Catholic Reporter is not official church policy. This supports my point, Catholics are liberal on many issues and yet officials have allowed the abortion and gay rights issue to take precedence over many other church teachings.

[Beware the Beast Man]

47. Agreed, and that's where most parishioners are torn-

But some bishops are speaking out:

Pittsburgh Bishop Donald Wuerl, for one:
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04147/322065.stm

Spokane Bishop William Sklystad:
http://www2.kimatv.com/x3443.xml?ParentPageID=x3738&ContentID=x46128&Layout=KIMA.xsl&AdGroupID=x3443&NewsSection=

[noonwitch]

40. I'm not a catholic, but I think that the church has always been

consistently conservative on issues like gay marriage, birth control and abortion. I think that this pope has taken stands on social justice and civil rights. JPII has chastised world leaders for war, he has tried to encourage peace between the Israelis and Palestineans, and he has also gone far in forging a relationship with Castro to try to encourage Fidel to be less oppressive leader.

I disagree with the church's stand on birth control, homosexuality and abortion. However, they have the right to their beliefs and american catholics are free to leave the church whenever they wish.

I do think that a lot of american catholics with liberal leanings have left the church and that the majority of those who stayed catholic are more conservative.

[Beware the Beast Man]

41. Umm...I'm still Catholic

And I'm pretty darn liberal. I'm not giving up my faith so soon.

[WilliamPitt]

46. Because of the priest abuses

Basically, the church has decided to take the tack that the best way to reassert their moral leadership is to act as though none of that shit happened. To reinforce the moral leadership thing, they've gone winging to the right.

Also, the abuse scandal caused a palace coup in the church. Those who took over in the wake of the scandal are much more right-wing. But several posters are correct: The church has never been a bastion of liberalism. Look to the Paulists if you want to see the social justice wing of the church.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cally]

50. Unlock kick

:kick:

[Cleita]

51. Maybe the Apocalypse is happening.

But I doubt it. However, the Church is the Whore of Babylon, a man made institution claiming divine authority and like a whore she will sell out to the highest bidder depending on which way the money flows.

Don't bother to flame me. I am entitled to my opinion on this because no one can prove that I am either right or wrong.

[displacedtexan]

53. It's time to run for Pope again.

Vatican politics makes Skull and Bones look like child's play.