NYC prepares to clear homeless from (R) convention site

[KamaAina]

http://www.nydailynews.com/front/story/203388p-175470c.html

With the Republican National Convention looming, the city is urging the homeless to clear the streets near Madison Square Garden, sources told the Daily News....

But advocates and homeless services providers left a meeting with the Department of Homeless Services last month - where the plan was discussed - with the impression that the goal is to clear the homeless away.

"Urging" the homeless? Man, that's rich!

And now the saddest of all possible words...

Yet even among the homeless, some agreed with the effort.

"It's such an important event. The whole country will be watching," said Robert Williamson, 39, who said he still votes Republican. "All the riffraff should be cleared away. And that includes me."

That pretty much sums up Reagan/Bush* Amerika in a nutshell: get the downtrodden to actually believe that they're the problem. :grr:

[Cyrano]

1. Ship the worthless riffraff off to Crawford, Texas

Plenty of room there for lazy, worthless people.

[killbotfactory]

2. They should put them in an arena to perform bloodsports for republicans

I'm sure Bush would get a kick out of it

[Lucky Luciano]

3. "get the downtrodden to actually believe that they're the problem."

In this case, many of them are the problem. Many of the homeless people in developed nations are there because of VERY BAD choices they made....big time drug/alcohol use that went far out of control. Therefore, they were the ones who caused the problems. The extreme poverty you might see in thrid world countries is different because many of these people were born into an unlucky situation from which there was no escape. In the US, when you are born into poverty, you can still get jobs to pay the rent and barely survive in a quasi-dignified way (fully dignified compared to some places I have visited) - for the most part. There may be some exceptions to what I have stated, but by and large, my observations have been that many homeless people have themselves to blame. The ones with deep mental probelms that cannot be blamed on bad personal choices - hmmmmm - maybe someone can enlighten me a little on their plight?

[Cyrano]

4. Hey, Rush. In an effort to enlighten you, get your head out of your ass

Do you have any idea how many Vietnam vets are homeless? Their wrong choices? Their own fault. Listen, you worthless piece of shit, just hope that you never hit a bad patch in life and that nothing ever happens to you that you have no control over.

I don't know whether you're serious, or some freeper lump of crap just trying to raise everyone's blood pressure.

[Lucky Luciano]

6. I qualified my statement

Vietnam Vets are not on my list of people who MADE VERY BAD CHOICES! There are many many homeless people here in Los Angeles that are way too young to be Vietnam Vets....and there are not nearly enough Gulf War vets (who certainly did not face the same trauma as the Vietnam vets) to be the ones making the street their home.

[sangh0]

7. You left a qualifier out - CHILDREN

Most homeless people are CHILDREN.

Now tell us about the BAD CHOICES those children make

[DrWeird]

12. So let me get this straight..

if they went to Vietnam and murdered a bunch of innocent people, they're OK, everybody else made bad choices?

Yeah, OK, Marie Antoinette.

[Lucky Luciano]

19. They went to Vietnam and were completely manipulated

by the system...you know that. They had no idea what they were getting themselves into - most of them were innocent/naive before they went across the Pacific. They didn't come back naive/innocent and many went crazy which is the whole point.

Are you saying that a poor person should not use the army as a way out of poverty? I ask this because you certainly cannot blame the people that got drafted for going.

[sangh0]

20. Really? Homeless children fought in Viet Nam?

Who knew?

:shrug:

[lovedems]

15. I see by your profile that world travel is your hobby.

It must be nice to travel the world and see all the homeless people and shake your head for their bad decisions.

I really take offense to your generalizations of homeless people. For the record, my husband, an IT professional, lost his job a year ago due to cut backs in the state and it has been difficult for him to find suitable employment. We could have very easily ended up in the "homeless" category if we didn't have a nest egg to fall back on which is close to gone so now we have to start all over.

Enjoy your world travels and don't step on any of the homeless people as you walk over them.

[Lucky Luciano]

21. Did I not specifically say that

the homeless in other countries, particularly the undeveloped ones, certainly were unlucky and did not have themsevles to blame??? Read my post again.

[lovedems]

30. I did read your post. I read it several times.

There are many people in this country who are born into poverty and *can't* get out of it. Like I said, my husband has been unemployed for going on a year, without having made a bad choice at all. We have been dangerously close to losing our "middle class" status and I am here to tell you first hand if you get down on your luck, the system makes it very difficult to get back on your feet. I repeat, I am telling you this from first hand experience. I am fortunate enough to have a very caring family who have helped us with our mortgage when we have needed help. I shudder for the 9% unemployed who don't have a family who have been laid off for reasons beyond their control.

Therefor, I take issue with your sympathy for homeless in other countries compared to the homeless in this country. BTW, I am sure you have read the reports that forclosures are at an all time high. I wonder if it has anything to do with unemployment being so high.

I am sorry but while you have money to travel the world, many are losing their homes because they don't have money to pay their mortgage. Compassion is what sets us apart from the conservatives.

[merh]

40. Gulf War vets may not have seen the same degree of trauma

but plenty were traumatized by that war, as WAR IS HORRIBLE!
I know several who came home with emotional and physical problems, and like the Viet Nam vets, they were not afforded the care they were promised by the VA administration. Their ailments were not "war" related, yada, yaada YUCK.

Assumptions about why individuals are destitute and/or cannot fit into society are wrong. We are the wealthiest nation in the world and we refuse to take care of our citizens.

We are as strong as our weakest link -- just remember that.

[tjwash]

18. Didn't you get the memo? <sarcasm alert>

They are homeless because they WANT to be homeless. Come on, didn't reaganomics teach you anything? They have an intense love of the homeless lifestyle. Never mind the fact that over 60 percent of Americans are one or two missed paychecks away from sleeping over a steam vent themselves. Oh, and don't forget those damn lazy bums that were barely scraping by beforehand that begged their bosses to cut their health benefits, and could not afford their own health coverage, and had the audacity to need emergency heart surgery a year later, and lost the title to their houses paying a ninety thousand dollar bill. God damn I envy those guy's...

</end sarcasm>

In all seriousness though, the fastest growing segments of the homeless population is families with children. A survey of 25 U.S. cities found that in 2000, families with children accounted for 36% of the homeless population. Poverty and the lack of affordable housing are the principal causes of family homelessness. Despite what some think, drug addiction, and mental illness cases are a small minority of causes of homelessness. Declining wages, changes in welfare programs, lack of affordable housing, lack of livable incomes, and an unstable job market are all major contributors.

[KamaAina]

5. The only VERY BAD choice that Robert Williamson has made

that we know about, according to this Daily News article, is that he votes Republican. :-)

The article mentions nothing about Mr. Williamson being an alcohol or drug abuser. Of course, at 39, he clearly isn't a Vietnam vet (as suggested above), either: Oil War I, perhaps? A hell of a lot of Oil War I (and soon, II) vets are just as screwed up as the ones from the 'Nam. :(

[Lucky Luciano]

9. As I said above,

I did qualify my statement! Those with mental illnesses that are not due to their own very bad choices (voluntarily enlisting in the army I will not include as a very bad choice because it may have been their only path out of poverty) are certainly not the ones I was talking about. Now, whether Mr Williamson's voting for a Republican can qualify as a mental illness, of course, is still open to debate. To be serious though, the fact that he votes at all suggests that he is is not mentally ill - I would bet he is a hard core alcoholic and maybe he really feels a little guilt about being a burden to society because of his disease???? Who knows...it really is odd that he would vote republican.

[redqueen]

10. Please respond to post #7

Thank you.

[Mel]

14. yea and the thing is how do we know

this reporter isn't just making it up (judith miller) I wonder how hard did this reporter have to look for Robert or how much $ did the reporter give Robert to say what the reporter wanted to write? We all know the welfare queen Raygun spoke about was never found...... and with todays atmosphere I have no faith in reporters to tell the truth.

[redqueen]

17. Judith Miller is one of the lyingest of the lying whores

Using any of her work as any kind of reference... well really it's something to be ashamed of.

Anyone still not clear on just how clueless Judith is click here and search for her name.

[lovedems]

22. Isn't she the one the NYT had to apologize for in their pre-war coverage?

She is a hack of hacks.

[redqueen]

24. Yes indeedy

that's the one.

I honestly can't believe she still has a job. But she's not black, so maybe they only fire bad journalists who black.

[Mel]

8. Here you go

maybe this will enlighten you.

Who is Homeless?
http://www.nationalhomeless.org/who.html

<snip>
FAMILIES

The number of homeless families with children has increased significantly over the past decade; families with children are among the fastest growing segments of the homeless population. In its 2003 survey of 25 American cities, the U.S. Conference of Mayors found that families comprised 40% of the homeless population, a definite increase from previous years (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2003). On a national level, the numbers are higher: the Urban Institute found that approximately 39% of the homeless population are children (Urban Institute 2000). These proportions are likely to be higher in rural areas; research indicates that families, single mothers, and children make up the largest group of people who are homeless in rural areas (Vissing, 1996).



As the number of families experiencing homelessness rises and the number of affordable housing units shrinks, families are subject to much longer stays in the shelter system. For instance, in the mid-1990s in New York, families stayed in a shelter an average of five months before moving on to permanent housing. Today, the average stay is nearly a year (Santos, 2002). For more information, see our factsheet on Homeless Families with Children. </snip>

[redqueen]

11. Thanks, Mel

for providing the ever-important background information.

:yourock:

[Lucky Luciano]

13. Thanks for the link and the rational response

as opposed to the poster above. I only have experience in urban areas, which is why I don't see the homeless children so much....rural homelessness is something I know zero about. The article does point out how it is the rural areas where many of these homeless families are.

[redqueen]

16. Maybe because it's not the case?

Care to provide some backup to your claim that it's mostly RURAL children who are homeless?

[sangh0]

23. LL is full of it

One of the articles cited says that 35% of all homeless people are children, but LL continues to say that most of the homeless are there fbecause of "BAD CHOICES"

Someone's been proven wrong, but can't admit it.

[redqueen]

25. Yes I noticed how he's studiously avoiding

addressing anything that might cause him to re-think his statement.

Says something about a person, that does.

[sangh0]

28. Gotta push that "Anyone can find a job"

and "They WANT to be homeless"

[redqueen]

29. Somebody sure did learn their Reaganomics!

How wonderful of them to come share it here.

:puke:

[Lucky Luciano]

33. I never suggested that people want to be homeless.

Jeez, I can't keep up with all the bashing going on, but I am trying! Too many to respond to.

[sangh0]

37. Yes, you did so suggest that people want to be homeless

Here is what YOU said:

"In the US, when you are born into poverty, you can still get jobs to pay the rent and barely survive in a quasi-dignified way (fully dignified compared to some places I have visited) - for the most part. There may be some exceptions to what I have stated, but by and large, my observations have been that many homeless people have themselves to blame"

If any poor person who is not mentally ill can find a job to pay the rent, then why is any healthy person homeless, unless they WANT to be homeless?

YOU said the poor can find work to pay the bills, and that many are homeless because of BAD CHOICES. So if they have CHOSEN to not work (because it cant possibly be that they CAN'T find a job that supports them and their family), and they DON'T want to be homeless, then YOU tell me, why are they homeless?

[Lucky Luciano]

39. You failed to boldface the part where it says

"My observations." Tell me though - what about the panhandlers that clearly have big problems they brought on themselves? What do you make of them? Is it possible that the reason my experience does not go with the statistics people present in this thread is that it is the types I talk about that are the most vocal about asking for money? The ones that ask me for money, more often than not (Some I see everyday), are clearly in need of a fix - as i pointed out, in another response, when I offer food to homeless people, they reject it 75% of the time!!! :wtf:

Of course nobody wants to be homeless.

OK - I REALLY have to go now...I should have left twenty minutes ago...I will gladly continue this conversation via PM and that goes for anyone else on this board because it is too messy to keep responding to all the various posts.

[Lucky Luciano]

32. Didn't the poster who provided the link

snip out the part that mentioned the thing with rural homelessness...I used what he posted and nothing more. Now, I live in Westwood in Los angeles. I sit outside at the starbucks doing my work a lot....I am approached by 5/6 homeless people per hour for money...Always individuals...some are respectful and decent...other times you see them bickering at each other and causing a scene. My samples of homelessness come from downtown LA at night, Westwood as I have mentioned, and the beach areas. I will say that I have NEVER seen a family huddled together outside on the ground.

Also, I NEVER give money to a panhandler, but whenever I have food I offer it. 75% of the time they reject my food offer. What is that supposed to make me think?

[redqueen]

36. Duh, you're right about the rural statistic...

Your personal experiences aside, reality is what it is. When confronted with information that counters what you believe, what's the best action to take? Ignore it and continue believing what you want, or accept that a great many of the homeless are children, and therefore NOT to be written off as 'homeless by choice'.

[prolesunited]

38. OK, you're admitting you're basing

your comments on limited personal experience and have little grasp of the facts. Explain to me then how you even feel qualified to make such sweeping generalizations about a whole segment of the population.

My wish for you, not to be mean or vindictive, is to spend a month or two living in one of their shoes. It's easy to be judgmental, but you clearly have no idea. If you survived that, perhaps you would have an opinion that would be worth listening to.

[Mel]

26. your welcome

the thing is we do have a problem with people being homeless.
See my post above please I swear it just smells to me that a homeless person would say yea we need to go and I vote Republican. Republicans are known for their dirty tricks and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they don't have their feet on the ground in NY already.....think back to the so called 'protesters' during the selection 2000 that where flown in by the bug man Delay to Miami-Dade that intimidated them to stop counting those votes. I'm sure someone has the picture of them around here.

[redqueen]

31. Just the byline is enough to set off your suspicions

I'm surprised they didn't fire her so that she doesn't carry the stain of her unimaginably bad handling of Iraq ... oh wait... nevermind. I forgot that the Times editorial board has been allowing this kind of sloppy work for as long as I can remember. Sorry about that. :)

[shrike]

27. Ever been to Appalachia?

You might change your tune if you go.

As for the mentally ill, there's no place for them to go these days save for jail or the street.

[redqueen]

34. The GOP doesn't care about the poor, no matter their race

I noticed Jesse Jackson is touring Appalachia, and trying to help. God bless him.

Sad the GOP has written them off, isn't it? Even after convincing all the racists to vote for them? All those children are forgotten, and yes, they are mostly WHITE.

AAAAARRRRGH! Will ANYTHING EVER clue these people in to the FACT that they're being USED by greedy fascists?!

:cry:

[Q]

35. Wow....that's almost exactly what Reagan used to say...

...about the homeless. I doubt though that you'll find many 'round here that will play 'blame the victim' with you.