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This is such an incredibly sad and sick story.

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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:22 AM
Original message
This is such an incredibly sad and sick story.
Christian Reifler, just two months shy of his second birthday, died alone in a hot, upstairs bedroom where he'd been left alone for two days last week, police said.

Authorities said earlier that Christian died of electrocution. Court documents say he also was dehydrated and emaciated. It is still unclear how long he was dead before residents of the home found him.

"No one fed the child, let the child out of his room, changed the child's diaper or checked to see if the child was awake, asleep or in this particular case dead," said an arrest warrant affidavit.


http://www.journalstar.com/
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
1. Sounds like a good reason to keep abortion legal.
Why wait til it's and unwanted infant who suffers?
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StClone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. There are thousands of these cases
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 07:46 AM by StClone
And, Freepers think abortion is heinous.
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DeaconBlues Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
6. Abortion is legal
and this sort of thing still happens all the time. Some people will always have children that they are too evil, lazy, or stupid to take care of. Abortion on demand won't stop this.
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. OK, i forgot to mention sex ed, planned parenthood, counseling, etc.
Remember the ONLY form of BC for the Bushies is Abstinence. We know how that works out....
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #6
46. WTF is abortion on demand?
Isn't that women refer to as civil rights and control over their own body?
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AntiCoup2K4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
10. Yeah, except the abortion here should have been the sick pieces of shit
...who were supposed to be this child's parents.
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op6203 Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #10
66. Yep
My thoughts exactly!
OP
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:31 AM
Response to Original message
2. Who the heck leaves a baby alone for DAYS?!
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Warpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. Probably somebody so far gone into alcohol or drugs
that she couldn't get it together to scrape the money together for an abortion, and once she had the kid, could barely get it together to remember to keep him alive.

The miracle here might be that the kid survived two years.

Why are alcoholic or drugged moms not given support? Why weren't there at least weekly visits to check up on the kid to make sure mom was still able to care for him?

Answer: this country despises children and where they come from. Women and children are LAST. If you don't doubt this, check what Bush plans to do with the WIC program, one that's been proven to drastically cut the rates of mental retardation among the poor. We really don't care, although we're all too ready to fix blame on a person who was clearly not up to the job she was handed.
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TNOE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Curious
what does Bush plan to do with the WIC program? haven't heard anything.
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #7
32. the parents probably weren't doped up when she was pregnant
Tox screens will test for drugs in the baby's system and if they're found - Child Services is called automatically.
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LynzM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #32
34. Doesn't always work, though
Know a girl who was addicted to OxyContin her whole pregnancy, baby was born dependant, at almost 6 months old is just getting to go home, and goes home with her, no state involvement....
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #34
56. I know of a similar situation as well
Only this mom had THREE kids with drugs in ALL their systems, and they ALL went home with her.

Warpy's right. This government doesn't give a $hit about kids or moms. If they did then the organizations that help moms and monitor kids wouldn't be so tragically underfunded.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. Look Lower On This Thread
for an example of what you are saying about how society views women who themselves might have been victims of sexual abuse.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. The truly sad thing
is that this kind of thing is happening more or less on a daily basis in this country. There is no real support system for single mothers, and so situations like this occur over and over again. I'm NOT excusing the mother, clearly she should not have abandoned her son like that, but where was the baby's father? Where was her own mother? Where was the home health nurse when she first brought her baby home who'd teach her what a baby needed?

This is sad and tragic, and is a terrible indictment of our entire social welfare system.
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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
4. Its about choices and consequences
I wonder if the mother is hardly more emotinally mature than a child, herself.
So unnecessary. Maybe incarceration will give her time to think about this.
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:26 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Parents
There needs to be a way to NOT be parents,not having kids needs to be seen as another way of being a good parent.People need to get honest about this issue and get educated, the morality games society plays concerning family,children and all needs to stop.
The church is motivated by selfishness,tradition leftover from feudal culture and the desire for converts,they'd kill the world to please their god and leaders,Don't listen to a damn thing any church says about reproduction.

I myself know I do not EVER want kids.I knew it when I was a 5 year old kid myself,I made my decision to not reproduce very early,parenting was NOT appealing to me in the least.Yet I had to live with fertile gonads for years because selfish or just programmed(?)GYNS so quickly assumed for me I might want kids someday and would not listen to my requests to be free of reproductive capabilities.Was it because I was female?..I was horribly paranoid of sex and It has disrupted my abilities to relate even to this day. I had a tubal ligation as an adult despite years of GYNS trying to convince me not to do it.I wanted to make damn sure I'd NEVER have kids. Why would there be this insane psychological pressure put on me to stay fertile other than society and people in general has too many selfish,sick beliefs concerning birth/death/kids etc.

Truthfully sometimes being a good parent means not being a parent.
Its unselfish to know yourself,acknowledge your psychological/financial/emotional/physical/stress limits and say no to having children you know you can't handle.
Keep abortion legal.I don't value my life to the point where I am thankful for the hell my life has been.No I am not thankful to been born.Sorry. I would have rather been aborted than grow up in the abusive home I grew up in. That is the parent gasping truth.
I suffered because my parents were narcissists and selfish and wanted to bring another kid into a family.They had me when they could not manage themselves,manage their emotions,manage their own lives and have insight to know how to behave like sane adults.yet let alone do the job nurturing a child.They didn't know how to love themselves or each other how could they love me too? It seems in a supreme fit of denial of the reality of their life ,they had me and put me here.

No,they loved me like an object,a pet..until I developed a will of my own than I became a scapegoat,a punching bag and a burden.

A baby human being is not a parental accessory,a life extension tool, vicarious career,ego prop,status symbol or or toy.A baby does not exist to nurture and please it's parents.A child is a person separate from it's parents in every respect except dependence upon them and needing instruction affection and nurturing from them.If a parent can't do this they have no business giving birth.
If a parent needs nurturing or has an insatiable desire to be pleased or obeyed they should never assign that job to a child and dump all their emotional pains and neurosis into them.
I am partly the product of my upbringing,And my upbringing has harmed me,so my parents bad skills legacy and mental illness ends with me.
Fuck family.

My chosen Friends are my real family.
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luaneryder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. I admire your morality
on this issue. Absolutely and without a doubt what you said, "sometimes being a good parent is not being a parent," is Truth. There are no classes required to become a parent and so many take that responsibility upon themselves without thinking about the consequences. Hell, I was too young and stupid to have my first child, but somehow she survived my less than skillful parenting, thrived, and became a wonderful, loving and successful adult. That doesn't happen in many cases. I see pregnant 16 year olds in my area all the time and wonder how on earth their babies will fare. One horrible case lately involved a young mother leaving her 2 month old in a room alone with a Pitt Bull puppy so she and her boyfriend could go into another room to screw. They came back later and found the puppy had chewed off one of the babies ears. The boyfriend cut the head off the puppy. There was a point at which this entire situation could have been prevented.
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. I had to read the police report on this case last week.
And I was sick for the whole day. Not just that this child died, but trying to imagine the sad life he must have had for the few months he was alive. I also thought about how hard my brother & his wife worked and how long they waited to adopt my nephew. They are such wonderful parents and yet people like this women pop babies out with ease and don't give them a second thought.
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Red State Rebel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. That is so sad...
People should have to have a license to have a baby. It took me a few years to get pregnant and I'll never forget the frustration and tears. Seeing some white trash idiot dragging dirty toddlers thru Walmart with no concern for them - you just want to scream.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yeah -- It's Just White Trash at Walmart
that abuse their kids.

Is that what you are saying?

And it strikes me that your proposal that people ought to be "licensed" in order to have kids is a severe restriction on reproductive freedom.

How about directing some of that anger towards developing good parenting training?
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #24
42. Straw man
Quelle surprise that, once again, outinforce puts words in another person's mouth

"It's Just White Trash at Walmart that abuse their kids. Is that what you are saying?

The answer is no, which is why you can't post a quote where the poster says that.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
43. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
50. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #50
58. Why, sangh0/sangha/SaidFred
How you do keep track of me.

Some might say that you are either stalking me or that you are obsessed with me.

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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #58
60. Some might say
you're pretty consistent at posting straw men, and trying to misportray Dems as people who like abortion

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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Those Who Would Say
such ridiculous things are little more than silly fools whose heads are filled with little more than vacuous space.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #42
59. Straw Man
Quelle surprise that, once again, sangh0/sangha answers a question that was not addressed to her.

How is it that sangh0/sangha knows what it is, exactly, that SaidFred meant.

Unless........
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. It's called "intelligence"
"How is it that sangh0/sangha knows what it is, exactly, that SaidFred meant."
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. LOL
intelligence!

ROTFLMAO!!!
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undergroundpanther Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. Thanks.
One thing missing from our society is community
People dop not want to get involved with thier neighbors.We live in seperate houses in seperated lives.We go to work and when we get home we isolate.

I wrote something about this
I wrote the article myself so I'm posting it..

The paradox of privacy
by Underground Panther in the Sky May 5, 2003


Why do we desire to have separate houses, separate rooms? Separate tables when we go to restaurants, separate cars?

This desire for a wall of separation between other people is a recent innovation. It is a thing created to manage people and discourage solidarity...

Our culture's need for privacy is manufactured. A social control experiment gone awry. It is the result of a long trend of state sponsored social conditioning.

Private institutions and courts in the late nineteenth century and federal agencies in the twentieth took a particular form of family autonomy and privacy, present only in a minority of the population, and worked to spread it among the rest of the population — even if it meant violating families that violated the prim "norms" these agencies set as examples for society to conform to. These agencies were unwilling to accept diversity in family or community life. Maintaining a particular "norm" the "nuclear " family is at the heart of a lot of social control in this country and a cause of inequality.

Early proponents of properness, privacy and domesticity turned to state power to create public and private coercion to induce family and community conformity. They intruded upon people's home life and privacy to enforce their own vision of what 'proper' home life and social divisions must be. And this intrusion into privacy, in the name of privacy, went beyond obvious examples like the enforced segregation of blacks and whites in the south. Families were torn apart literally, if they were poor, different, or had children that were not properly submissive to authority, or prim enough in their manners. The more courts and officials institutionalized their 'ideal' of childhood and parental responsibility, the more inclined they were to literally institutionalize people and stigmatize functions that did not fit into their idealized nuclear family models.

If a family failed to create 'adequate' personal privacy between each other, failed to achieve economic independence, or didn't obey 'proper' gender roles, state institutions took over the household.. Children were sent to "reform schools" or foster care if their mother didn't look "normal" enough for the state's extreme puritanical definitions of a "fit" mother.

Around the Civil War era, these proponents of "privacy" and Victorian mores had two main goals of social policy. They were to "free the nuclear family from it's formal entanglements with kin and neighbors" (The Way We Never Were, pp. 128) and to make diverse communities uniform. This was disrespectful to the humanity of the people it affected. This was a program designed to slowly undo the trusted kin and friendship connections of people to others in their own communities and to end communal childrearing.

The subjugation of families to public authority did not stem from a collectivist or socialist agenda but from an attempt to build individualistic definitions of private responsibility. State Institutions fostered a form of personal responsibility that was geared to a competitive and structurally unequal economic order. For example, schools taught children that "helping your friends is cheating." This had the effect of making people struggle harder to hold their own, and to glorify and mystify notions of independence. And it introduced more stress, isolation, exhaustion, and loneliness. This kind of manipulation served the business people and church crowd that ran the state back then very well.

This grand design for social separation was the brainchild of tweaking Victorian churchmen and greedy insecure businessmen who found close-knit communities and solidarity of people who were less than wealthy or not too prim, who were socializing in urban tenements or the street, upsetting and threatening. To the upper crusties the people out on the street, particularly the poor and immigrants talking to each other, were too much for their paranoid constitutions to bear. They grew hysterical and referred to simple socializing of the wrong classes of people as an addiction — much like crack cocaine today.

The Victorian marms and control freaks set about making laws to isolate people and turn them into symbols of social deviance. Even the US Commissioner of Labor, Charles Neill, declared in 1905: "There must be a separate house and as far as possible separate rooms, so that in an early period of life... (marketers say get kids conditioned before age 7 and they'll be brand loyal). So the ideas of rights to property, the right to things, to privacy may be instilled. " (The Way We Never Were, pp. 136)

Soon after that came the loitering laws, limits on where people could gather, limits on how many people could gather, and what they could or could not do together. Zoning laws and building codes arose to reinforce people's separation from kin and community. Stores, churches and institutions gobbled up living space, suburban sprawl came to be a formidable force to exploit close habitation of different kinds of people by economic and distance segregation into individual living spaces that separated people from contact with each other and communal social spaces even further. Soon the demands of time, housekeeping, and hobbies began to segregate people's lives into compartments just like the suburban landscape and the commute to go anywhere reflected many lonely rooms in their homes...

We turned into a nation of strangers communicating to each other via church- or state-created identities in the media.

When the state butts in to separate us, divide us, to manipulate us with divisive labels, it creates more reaction and hostility between people. When the media, politicians, and community leaders use divisive labels and divisive issues to undermine solidarity and community cooperation, people seek identification and group loyalty to fill the empty hole left by the systematic erosion of our natural human solidarity and sense of relatedness to diversity that is part of every community. The identities offered in the social sphere, often tend to separate us from each other and ourselves all the more.

And the intervention of the state to enforce religious legislation, or to pass overly restrictive or unnecessary laws, becomes a poor intrusive substitute for better solutions that truly can correct the damage done by previous state, church, or corporate intrusion into our privacy.

Also, consider the ambiguity towards privacy within the religious right, today. In the past, Victorians enforced separation, isolation, and the undermining of community and solidarity especially among the lower classes and immigrants. They violated privacy to enforce their view of privacy. In comparison, Modern religious conservatives are concerned about the state intervening to stop them from beating their kids.

James Dobson, and Jerry Regier, Jeb Bush's appointee to the Florida Department of Children and Families (DCF), for example, are suspicious of any state regulation against child abuse. They want the right to beat their children or spank them. Regier wrote back in 1988, "The Bible is not at all uncertain about the value of discipline, 'Although you smite him with the rod, he will not die. Smite him with the rod… save the soul. '" At that time Regier was a member of the Christian Fundamentalist group Coalition on Revival. That group endorsed spanking children even if it caused bruises and welts. They wanted to make premarital sex and masturbation illegal. They believed that Christians shouldn't marry non-Christians and that married women should not have careers. Regier previously worked for George Bush, Sr., as head of the National Office of Juvenile Justice and Delinquency Prevention.

Dobson, Regier, and others imply some notion of privacy within the home to allow them to potentially harm children, masked under the banner of religious freedom. Yet they both are very much opposed to the right to privacy as defined by the Supreme Court.

The right to privacy was used in the Griswold decision, to overturn a Connecticut law against married couples obtaining contraceptives in 1965. The right was extended to protect a woman's expectation of privacy with regard to her own body and decision with her doctor to have an abortion in the first trimester, and then throughout the pregnancy. The right to privacy may also be invoked to overturn the current Texas Sodomy law, which was used recently to prosecute two gay men who were having consensual sex in the privacy of their own home.

Such conservative Christians would support their right to privacy within the home to provide cover for potential child abuse, but would throw away any principle of a right to privacy that would prevent state intrusion into the private bedrooms of consenting adults.

Compare that to the common sense view that the right privacy does not grant immunity from reasonable search and seizure, or hinder due process and investigation to enforce legitimate laws against child abuse, incest, abuse of power, fair contracts, etc., but prevents the state from being over-intrusive in private affairs, for example, where no one is beaten, threatened, coerced, conned, etc. Reactionaries want the state in our bedrooms, and everyone else wants to prevent the state from intruding needlessly and dominating our private lives.

We all love the idea of the state butting out of our private lives... But when private life becomes a danger to life and limb for those living within those walls, we wish for state, family, or neighborly intervention. A tyrant in the home requires those whom he tyrannizes to maintain an illusion that the brutality that goes on in private isn't really happening. Families become enablers and secret keepers.

Because of a household tyrant's need for suppression and for privacy to abuse people, privacy and securing it is of overblown importance to him. A privacy abuser's reactions to a symbol is similar to the symbolic over-reactions of gun owners to any regulations of guns. Privacy abused in this sort of situation enables privacy abuse by the state.

Domestic abuse is a dire problem in our country, when those who report child abuse are as follows: Professionals (including teachers), law enforcement officers, social services workers, and physicians, make more than half (56%) of the screened-in reports. Others, including family members, neighbors, and other members of the community, made the remaining 44 percent of screened-in referrals regarding abuse.

It's tragic when only 44% of our own kin and home communities dare to get involved in confronting domestic abuse, and prefer instead to let the state handle it. And 56% of those reports only happened because the state was stepping in where kin and neighbors failed to. Where was the community's concern and empathy? Where were friends and neighbors? Were they all inside their private homes, too oblivious to notice, in their own rooms, sitting alone with the TV on or a video game going on to drown out the sounds of real violence with fake violence?

Which would you rather have? Some kin, neighbor, or friend we know or are aquatinted with step in to chill out an abuser that's abusing a kid, and then alert the whole neighborhood to watch out for the kid's safety, ready to provide a place for the kids to go when the shit hits the fan as the cops are called? Or would you rather have some state-regulated over-worked social worker with a huge caseload to tell him to stop hurting people, on the way to the police station before he's released on bail to keep on abusing people? All while no-one else outside admits they might know about it, or when they do know they still refuse to help?

Kids die this way, folks, even at the hands of their own parents. This inspires a public outcry from the bothered for church and state to step in as parents. People die at the hands of normal looking, quiet, all-too-private sociopaths who nobody interfered with or even suspected was a problem individual. Assuming the best, ignoring the suspicions, keeping to themselves until the stench of dead bodies under the crawlspace is unbearable and the state is called to fix it.

I myself would trust myself and my own neighbors to investigate violence they overhear in our neighborhood. This simple act of human concern for a fellow human being may save many lives in abusive homes, because it ruins the secrecy games enablers enact to protect themselves from harm. It destroys any delusions of lordship through privacy that a household tyrant craves so he can keep abusing people.

People are less likely to intervene in domestic violence nowadays because we do not socialize as freely with each other any more, in the streets and neighborhoods of America. And because we move from place to place chasing jobs, we never get to stay in a neighborhood long enough to put down roots and participate in neighborhood or civic life.

So if I don't know my neighbors, the state and its impersonal intervention looks safer to me because it's regulated by others, somewhat (usually by citizen-elected "officials" or citizen-created advocacy groups.

Isn't this ironic? We want state intervention when other's privacy is abused, and we want that state power for intervention supervised by people who are citizens to keep it respectful of our privacy rights, but these are uninvolved people who have no clue who we are, personally. We hate having our own privacy violated, yet we are eager to invade others' privacy through the apparatus of the state, to make sure there isn't any consensual homosexual sex or gay adoptions going on.

The state has taken the place of familiar human community supports. It is impersonal, the way the state controls social interactions and puts an end to solidarity in community. TV, computers, video games are usurping our free time, and the media's constant harping on tragedies and crimes of the unknown person in the neighborhood has helped this social isolative process along psychologically. The loitering laws, chronic suburban sprawl, the necessity of cars to get anywhere, air conditioning, and other various actions and inventions of business and the passivity or unawareness of unions all contributes to this malaise.

Look, if neighbors all across this country knew each other and didn't fear neighborly diversity, because we knew our diverse neighbors personally, it might make people less stuck on believing bigoted rhetoric, less gullible to manipulation, and less prone to get reactionary over other people's ways of life. We would not need the state to intervene to tell us to get along, if we didn't forget how to relate and get along together.

When it's someone you know well and respect who's in trouble, it feels different because there is a relation there. The impersonal state and other institutions of this society have no authority to lord their self-serving social models and agendas over you, when they appeal to things like empathy, ethics, and other values that are inherent in living beings. When the state does this type of appeal to the better parts of humanity, it is coercive, intrusive, or impersonal. When the state appeals to empathy or the needs for ethical behavior from someone, it calls in another intrusive profession or social institution, like psychiatry or the church to tell you how.

In isolation we feel more vulnerable to symbols and we feel more powerless when we think we have no allies that understand us socially.. So when the state gets ugly or a company screws us to the wall we are more likely submit to it because we fear abandonment, homelessness.

Homelessness is a life without privacy or things. Homelessness goes directly against our social conditioning. Homeless people have networks of people who know them and they do support one another. But because it involves poverty, people fear the homeless more than they ought to, allowing the state and businessmen to make the homeless into a scary symbol... something one best keep out of one's community.

Because humans loathe the unknown, and unknown people, and are wary of differences they don't understand, and we love our privacy to the extremes even more than we care about each other, we can remain uninvolved in neighborhood and community relationships on a personal level.

When privacy is abused and we can't ignore it or shut it out, we have no choice but to ask the state to fix it when nothing else can fulfill that role. The state won't fix it really, because the state has its own agendas, which dovetails nicely with our very scripted planned reactions, all fueled by certain unquestioned beliefs about people, by our fear, ignorance, isolation, and imagination, and by those worse-case scenarios dancing in our heads along with the TV news.

We behave today, to some extent, as we were planned to behave by state lawmakers in the nineteen hundreds. We often act like the wealthy hysterical Victorian legislators and churchmen living in the late nineteen hundreds, as we fret over "those undesirable strangers entering our antiseptic segregated suburban "paradise." We gossip so arrogantly and ignorantly about those "other people," those "criminals on the street corners," those "rowdy youth," those "bums." We admonish people that are not like us, people we don't relate to. Because we have overvalued our own privacy, we think we don't have to learn how to get along with others. We can go on endlessly about "those other people" doing nasty unChristian things in private, or doing things we wouldn't ourselves do in public as we do the same damn thing in the sanctity of our home.

This kind of blazing bullshit hypocrisy is only possible where people refuse to relate to one another on human terms beyond their familiar cliques, and instead choose to abbreviate real people into symbols and have nightmares about "them." It's much easier to dehumanize someone you've never talked to.

How vivid the human imagination becomes when it is isolated from human-to-human community relationships. How malleable and controllable we all get when we're atomized into our separate houses, separate rooms, separate cars, in a town full of strangers shut up in their own domiciles lording over it, possessing all these things ... but are secretly suffering for want of a true friend and somewhere to go on a Saturday night besides getting drunk out of your skull.

A community relationship is the only way to dull the loneliness and boredom of your life. You cannot have your privacy cake and eat your neighbor's privacy in this human situation.

But we have become so timid, over-polite, passive, and socially awkward. We can't just walk up to a guy on the street and ask him to coffee; we are all too busy, too awkward. We assume they don't want to be bothered with friendship, and so our social conditioning is never challenged.

How convenient this is, to those who fear community and solidarity. How tyrannical we become when we think we are powerless, because we are by all observable evidence alone... abandoned by everyone, to fend for ourselves, alone against the whims of a dog-eat-dog world. How vulnerable we feel when we have painful pasts where no one heard us or stepped in to help.

Fearful privacy and misuse of personal power becomes a refuge from fear of the "other," and a refuge from corporate/state control and time management. Privacy, while it feels safe, is also a haven for creating even more fear and reaction of the "other," who is dehumanized into a symbol. This kind of privacy invites more state intervention and control.

We need community relationships to temper our tendency to react or to be tempted by extremism. Absolute privacy and state intervention as a substitute for a neighborhood... it is a tragic and profitable paradox of symbols in this modern civilized life.

" Day after day, They send my friends away
To mansions cold and gray,
To the far side of town,
Where thin men stalk the streets,
While the sane stay underground...

... "Cause I'd rather stay here with all the madmen,
Than perish with the sadmen roaming free,
And I'd rather play here With all the madmen,
For I'm quite content they're all as sane as me."
—David Bowie,
excerpted from "All the Madmen,"
on the album "The Man who Sold the World"
~ : ~

Excerpts in the article are from The Way We Never Were, by Stephanie Coontz.

For the other stuff I've written visit:
http://www.unknownnews.net/archives.html#U

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amber dog democrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:52 AM
Response to Reply #9
14. This is a tip-of-the-iceberg situation.
And we are seeing the results of it every day in the news, in institutions, and in our daily lives. Thank god we are not in the 1950s when going against the doctrines in the US of the nuclear family had so little support.

I am kind of in the same boat you're in. Its taken years of therapy to unravel the sources of much of the confusion and anger that presented huge obstacles to making progress in the world.... and I have learned how to forgive but hold accountable.

Years ago my then 5 year old daughter said at lunch " Both of my grandmothers are in heaven arn't they? " I replied " Well ONE of them is "

I probably should not have said that.
There is much in what you said that I agree with.
Here is wishing you a good life going forward. My own pennance is grappling with being way to self focused. It takes effort not to sometimes but i am better for it.

Back to the topic, I am not completley blaiming this chlld who killed her own child out of neglect, but there IS accountalbility - even though this has little effect on her.
I am saddened by this.
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doni_georgia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
11. These stories happen all the time
This past fall, a 6th grader near me was killed. She had been tied up and put in the garage by her parents, where she was beaten daily, denied food and drink. She had been abused for years. Nobody did anything. She lived in a neighborhood where the houses are merely feet apart, yet no one heard her scream? The school counselor and nurse were fired and are pending criminal charges for not reporting the case to DFACS. There is a lot of confusion whether any adult at the school knew she was beaten. The kids knew, though. Two of my former students were on her team at school, and both of them told me that she told anyone who would listen that her parents beat her.

I know, as a teacher, that when we do make reports to DFACs (which in my case seems to be very frequently lately), most often nothing is done. Our entire child protection system needs to be changed. For one thing, social workers' case loads are way too large, and they don't make nearly enough money. It's a very high stress job, and thankless. You cannot expect someone to keep on top of things when they are over worked and underpaid, and have so much paper work to do that they can't even begin to do all the home visits that are required. It's horrible. I frequently make home visits with our school social worker (actually whenever I make a referral), it's unbelievable some of the things we see when we make these visits. We then report to DFACs, and 9 times out of 10 - nada!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 08:47 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. the system after 6 years
ny brother is to have 11 year old daughter, was denied christmas and easter and now cant find the mom. 6 years and 150k later, the court initially said the mother could change and she isnt that bad. the father is good, he had 3 psychiatrists, minister, school admin and family all show parenting ability, but court gave to mom. 6 years later, that child has been tortured mentally in the sickest of ways. and now we cant find her. the mother comes up with three mental illness and still my brother is fighting for daughter.

it has been the most amazing revelation to see the system in action.

a lot fo work needs to be done in this area, that is for sure.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
48. I am so sorry to hear of your brothers trouble
I pray there will be a good outcome.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
18. And that is just the children...
In Tallahassee, capital of Florida and seat of the Idiot Son's wicked brother Jeb!, there is a considerable homeless problem which is exacerbated by the relatively-nearby Belleview mental hospital in Chatahoochee, which is forced to release patients who are "cured" that it wouldn't necessarily release if it had the funding. A few days later, when no one is supervising them to make sure they take their medication, many of them can be seen walking down the street ranting at no one. I love compassionate conservatism at work.
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qanda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
19. That is sick and sad
Death was probably a kind fate to that child. Reading the entire story makes me think that he was suffering terribly and nobody cared.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
21. One More Reason Not To
One more reason not to smoke methamphetamine, if you are a parent.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
22. Where I live, a mother was recently sentenced to 100 years
for forcing her four children, all under nine, to perform sex acts on each other and on her boyfriend while adults paid to watch. (I'm not exaggerating.) At her sentencing, she confidently said that her children will want a relationship with her later in life because "I am their mother and my blood flows through their veins."

Meanwhile, the kids are in foster care and having a hell of a time because therapists are trying to teach them that they shouldn't make sexual advances towards each other or other children.

I know the support system for single mothers isn't often there, but let's face it, some people just shouldn't have, or raise, kids.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. "Shouldn't Have Kids??"
I am troubled by your statement that suggests that there are some people who just shouldn't have kids.

It troubles me almost as much as the notion that a mother ought to receive 100 years in jail for doing what this mother did.

Where is the compassion toward this woman?

The state is willing, apparently, to devote a lot of resources to giving the kids therapy.

WHat about the mom? Or is the state's view that all she deserves is life in a small cell? Doesn't she deserve some therapy?

Who knows? With some support and some therapy, she might turn out to be a decent mom, after all.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. Um, no. I have no compassion for people who sexually abuse children.
Sorry.

This woman deserves every day of her 100 life sentence.

There are some people that don't deserve second chances. People who sexually abuse children are one of them.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. Isn't It The Case
that people who sexually abuse kids were often times abused by adults when they themselves were kids?

And, if so, then aren't we punishing victims who then become victimizers?

You seem to view those who abuse kids as being evil monsters -- people beyond all hope of redemption.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Yes, that is my opinion.
If you abuse a child, you are an evil monster and you are beyond all hope of DESERVING redemption of any kind. No one that abuses a child will get an ounce of compassion from me. I don't care what their excuse is.

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put out Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:07 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. The rate of recidivism
for child sexual molesters is very high. Many are indeed beyond redemption. None should be allowed contact with any child ever again, especially their own.

I'd say a 100 year sentence stops the cycle of abuse this woman may have been perpetuating. Even if she was abused as a child, it doesn't take a three digit I.Q. to realize that abusing a child is wrong and you shouldn't do it.

What she did was unspeakable.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. But Read What the Poster Said
shrike says that the kids themselves -- the ones who are the victims of the abuse -- "are in foster care and having a hell of a time because therapists are trying to teach them that they shouldn't make sexual advances towards each other or other children."

These kids are lucky. With genuine love, a lot of therapy, and care, they will grow up to understand that it is unspeakable to force kids to have sex with other kids and with adults.

I wonder just how much genuine love, therapy, and care the mother ever received.

I would almost bet that those kids -- the ones who were abused -- might, if they had not received the therapy they are receiving now, have grown up to think that it is perfectly OK and natural for kids to have sex with other kids and with adults.

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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. Lots of people grow up without love and don't abuse their own children
Lots of people who are abused as children grow up and are great parents who would NEVER abuse their own child.

I'm sorry but sexual predator apologists turn my stomach.

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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. You'll Excuse Me For Saying This,
but you sound very much like some of the people I know.

They say that individuals should always be held responsible for thier own actions.

They say that the environment in which a person was raised ought to excuse nothing.

They say that life is just a limitless horizon of opportunities -- waiting to be grabbed.

And they say that if someone screws up, it is entirely his or her own fault -- and that they should be judged as harshly as possible.
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Killarney Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. Response
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 11:36 AM by Killarney
I do believe that people should be held responsible if they abuse a child.

Yes, there are always reasons behind why a person commits a crime. But it still remains a crime and the abuse of a child is the lowest, most horrific crime I can imagine.

If someone raped my child and then said to me, "oh, but my daddy raped me and that's why I raped your child" that would not change my mind for one second--that person deserves to be punished HARSHLY for raping my child. Yes, it sucks that he was raped by his own father (in this example) but does not change the fact that he has free will and he CHOSE to rape my child.
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sangh0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #38
55. You missed the straw man
outinforce said "And they say that if someone screws up, it is entirely his or her own fault -- and that they should be judged as harshly as possible"

I don't remember you saying that "it is entirely his or her own fault"

He is using the opinions of other people ("You sound like some people I know...") to misrepresent what you said.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #55
62. Strawman
Quelle surprise that, once again, sangh0/sangha puts words in another person's mouth

"He is using the opinions of other people ("You sound like some people I know...") to misrepresent what you said."

Why do you feel this obsessive need to post mis-representations of what I have said?

Why do you feel this obsessive need to attribute motives to me which are not mine?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
49. She did it for money
which says to me that her problem was financial more than having been abused herself. So I agree with you on this one.
However the cycle is not broken. At least some of those children will go on to abuse others.
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Grown2Hate Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
47. You're right. And Jeffrey Dahmer was abused too...
so let's coddle him and hold his hand and gently explain, "Now, Jeffrey... it's not very NICE to cut people up and eat them!". WHERE does the accountability come into play then? "Well, I was sexually abused by my dad, but he was by his, and in turn he was by his..." etc., etc. until the beginning of time. SOMEONE that's ALIVE has to be held accountable and END the cycle of abuse. There are ramifications for deplorable actions, PERIOD. This woman FORCED HER OWN CHILDREN TO HAVE SEX WITH EACH OTHER!!! And that's not enough... she made MONEY off of it! And you EXCUSE her?! I'm not saying that we have the FULL story, but that's ENOUGH of the story to lock her away. Child abusers are the LOWEST form of humanity, and I don't wanna hear any goddamn excuses for it. (anger NOT directed at original poster, simply this viewpoint)
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #47
52. Grown2Hate?
Sometime, I would very much like to hear the meaning behind your screen name.

You suggest that I am excusing the mother who had forced her children to have sex with each other and with her boyfriend.

I think you have mis-understood me.

I am saying that she should be treated with compassion.

That she should receive love, therapy, and care.

Otherwise, her life will be just a complete waste.

You know, sometimes on threads that deal with the death penalty, there are those who say that the death penalty is nothing more than society getting revenge.

Isn't sentancing a mother (who, for all I know, may herself have been a victim of sexual abuise as a child) to 100 years in jail just another form of revenge?


Hold her accountable for her actions -- make her understand what she has done -- but then try to cure her. Don't just lock her away for 100 years. That's cruel.
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Grown2Hate Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. The screen name is actually from an EARLY Marilyn Manson song...
"This is your world in which we grow... and we will grow to hate you." And the funny thing is I don't really relate as much as I may have when I was 18 (25 now), but it's a handle I've never been able to shake and pretty much use for everything online because it's nice and easy to remember.

Now, to address the issue, I see your point a little more clearly now. Sure, offer her therapy, etc. And you know what... maybe 100 years is a little steep (I don't think so, since she robbed those children of their innocence), but if you're suggesting she could EVER be "cured" enough to be allowed around her children again, I must VEHEMENTLY disagree. Sexual predators remain sexual predators. It may very well be because of trauma from their childhood never properly addressed, but it doesn't change what has happened. That all being said, I can see your point, but disagree wholeheartedly.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Perhaps My Suggestion That
she could become a fit mom again flies in the face of scientific knowledge.

I am not so much wedded to the notion that she be allowed to be around children again as I am to the notion that it is just excessively cruel to take someone who may herself have been a victim of sexual abuse as a child and throw her into prison for 100 years.

This is not to say that I excuse her terrible behavior.

Part of the therapy I think someone like her should receive is education that what she did was wrong. And a "cure" for me would be to have her sincerely admit that what she did to her o wn kids was wrong.

She is not at that place now, it seems.

Locking her away for 100 years will never get her to that place.

Some genuine love, therapy, and care might.
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #23
41. This woman earned money by abusing her kids
Adults paid to watch the "sex shows" her kids put on. The evidence was videotaped because she planned to sell the tapes, or perhaps already had sold a few.

A good mom?? Are you serious??

Damn right some people shouldn't have children. Take a look at the news once in a while.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Some People Shouldn't Have Kids
Who would you have issuing the licenses that people would need in order to have children?

The Bush administration?
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shrike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Of course we can't issue licenses
But it's cases like this one (and the one above) that make me think it's a damn pity we can't.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
29. I believe that all of us inherit his poor sad sick little soul.
Pray for Christian Reifler.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Pray?
to whom?

Why?

Newflash: Christian Reifler is dead.

He doesn't exist.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
37. I will not riducule whatever you think/believe if you will not ridicule
what I think/believe (and those terms are synonymous).

You haven't asked me one thing about what I mean by what I said.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #31
40. Okay, I take it back . . .
Edited on Thu Jun-17-04 12:04 PM by patrice
I guess you did ask, SORT OF . . .

to whom? : I think it is more like "Pray with . . . " rather than "to" anyone or anything. I try to allow my perceptual organism to receive the truth, whatever the truth really is, to the best of its ability. Think of it as "tuning." BTW, I think the word "god" is nearly meaningless.

One thing that is true is that what killed Christian Reiffler is killing all of us, so praying for/with Christian Reiffler is becoming aware of that truth for me/us.

Why? because it's the truth.

"Dead" is a word. Words are words; words are not the same thing as whatever they sort of represent. Don't assume that words bear a necessary and absolute relationship to that which they represent. Reality is more than words, the nature of proof, upon which rationalism is founded, recognizes this fact. All statements of "fact" are relative to a situation that produces them which contains more un-tested assumptions than it does tested assumptions.
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outinforce Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Uh, I Guess
But one question remains -- Is Christian Reiffler dead? Or is that statement "Christian Reiffler is dead" merely a statement the truth of which is relative to a situation that produces it which contains more un-tested assumptions than it does tested assumptions?

Would it be more accurate to say "Christian Reiffler seems to me (but not to you) dead?"

Or how about "The "dead-ness" of Christian Reiffler can only be ascertained by each individual, and is dependant upon that individual's perspective?"

I'm awfully confused here.
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Grown2Hate Donating Member (833 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
51. Depends upon what the meaning of the word "is" is.
You see, if you mean, does his biological material which composed his body currently exist in a state of self awareness, it can be safely assumed that he is dead. However, his story lives on, and maybe, JUST maybe, the story of his life (or the very sad, sick story of the END of his life anyhow) will wake others up enough to prevent this type of tragedy in even just ONE other child. In a sense, you could say he lives ON in that way... saving another life with his story. Relativism is a very funny thing. And to answer another question you posed, and I'm paraphrasing, "who would you have issue the licenses (to have children)? the bush administration?", the answer is no, I wouldn't. But CPS should be allowed to just come in and TAKE your children away with NO PROOF of any wrongdoing on your part as a parent (and don't EVEN try to sit here and tell me it can't happen... I've seen it SEVERAL TIMES with close friends of mine)? There has to be SOME sort of systemic (there's that word again!) change; an overhaul. But don't let Bush have anything to do with it. :)
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Rainbowreflect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #29
39. Thank you. I have & will continue to.
I know often people use situations like this to question the existence of God, but I do not. I believe that horrible things like this go hand in hand with free will.
Also when I hear of something like this I have to believe in a loving God and an after life where this child will have peace, joy and more love that we can imagine.
I cannot believe otherwise or I would not be able to bear the unfairness of this life.
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jun-17-04 01:31 PM
Response to Original message
63. .
:cry:

I can only pray he's safe and happy now.

:cry:
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