A Question For Alcoholics... Or For Those Experienced With Alcoholism:

[arwalden]

(Okay... it's more than just one question.)

If someone is an alcoholic are they an alcoholic for life, or just while they are abusing alcohol?

Is there any danger or unintended effect for alcoholics "self treat" themselves and stay white-knuckle sober by sheer willpower?

Is it always better for alcoholics to be treated professionally? And is it always necessary for alcoholics to remain in some sort of ongoing maintenance program?

And you know why I'm asking and to whom I'm referring... but generic answers will be fine.

-- Allen

[seventhson]

1. I work with a lot of alcoholics and...

it seems to me that labelling one an alcoholic doesn't help a lot of folks but also, like AA, does help many if that is what they need to keep sober.

Labelling someone an alcoholic for life doesn't necessarily help: it is a subjective opinion.

I also have found that while AA and lifetime "treatment" is required for a lot of folks - those who do it on their own with sheer will power seem happier and better adjusted than those dealing with the constant 12 step harangue.

There is no one right way...

[BigBigBear]

2. I may be too close to this subject to be objective

My wife just died 12 days ago from liver failure, at age 46.

My perception is that some people can beat it with white knuckles, some need a group, some need in-patient, and some will never beat it. Some of the latter will die from it, and some won't. My wife died from it - her fate may have been sealed years ago. I'll never know, but I'll get to wonder about it the rest of my life.

You can't predict who or how much. Treating alcoholism is an appallingly inexact science.

[Killarney]

7. I'm so sorry.

I'm so sorry for your loss, BigBigBear.

:(

[LynzM]

9. I'm so sorry to hear that...

I don't know what to say, except love and hugs to you. :hug:

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

17. So sorry, My BIL went throught the same exact thing a few years ago

My SIL died at age 40 from it. Nobody could have saved her from it, unfortunately. It was really tough, but he's doing well now. The doctors told him some cases are simply not cureable.

[Westegg]

49. Damn. I'm so sorry, friend. Now: here's my take on this subject

...My family is largely alcoholic. My dad's parents died in their fifties and sixties from booze. My mom died three years ago from booze at age 64 (her parents, who were NOT alcoholics, lived well into their 90s). My dad, a successful psychiatrist who once ran a big drug-and-alcohol clinic, is 74 and dying from liver failure brought on by alcohol. And he won't stop drinking. Won't? He CAN'T. And he won't get help.

Yeah, I'm an alcoholic too. It took me 20 years of drinking to figure this one out. I was a fully functional drunk, so I was in denial for a long time. It took the love of a good woman to help me see the reality of my situation.

I tried AA for a long time. It is a good and helpful group but I couldn't get past the third step: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God AS WE UNDERSTOOD HIM." I couldn't get there. I have trouble with the concept of a Higher Power. I read the chapter in the Big Book (the A.A. bible) called "We Agnostics" ten times. Didn't help. I was white-knuckling it the whole time I was going to meetings every day for months and months. Staying sober, but not "working the program." So I dropped out and started drinking again after almost a year of sobriety. (That's not much time for a truly sober person---but it was the longest time I'd had since I was 13.) What brought on my "relapse" was a disillusionment with A.A. (my fault, not A.A's), and the supreme irony of my dad's latest illness, due to liver failure, which put him in the hospital for a month.

I'm currently in an outpatient alcohol rehab program, which is largely based on cognitive-behavioral therapy. This is working for me. I got SO damn tired of being told by people in A.A. that maybe I was "too smart" to work the program. Of course they had a solution fror my dilemma, but their solution didn't work. Maybe I was "too smart" for their suggestions? The phrase "too clever by half" comes to mind. Oh, I'm extremely clever, and I have a dizzying I.Q. as well. I daresay I'm the smartest person a lot of people know. But it turns out I'm not too smart. My dad is the smartest person I ever knew, but he's not smart enough to save his own life. I'm possibly destined to follow in his footsteps, posessing nothing more than a pale, thin copy of his brain. When it came down to it, I needed a more tailor-made (and thus much more expensive) program to address my specific problems. I feel I've found that now. And if and when I go back to A.A. it will be more as a maintenance program.

Boy, gosh-golly---once it starts spilling out of me it just flows, baby, don't it? How embarrassing this post is. I shouldn't even send it. But what the fuck. I love DU, and I trust all you cats to be sensitive and not judgmental. And maybe a sentence or two of this self-indulgent tripe will mean something to someone...

[Lisa0825]

54. Thanks for posting this.

I am glad you found treatment that is right for you. I think a lot of people either give up on AA because it isn't right for them, or never try it because they don't like what they read, but then they don't pursue other avenues. This is why I think the tunnel vision of most doctors and the courts, in prescribing only AA is dangerous. I think we should be promoting ALL avenues so that more people will find the one that is right for them.

[Westegg]

72. Thank YOU. And I agree with what you say. (n/t)

[Just Me]

69. I admire your courage to share your struggle.

Cognitive-behavioral therapy is proven to be one of the most effective appliances to several areas of human struggle. It actually teaches people how to grow their own "will".

On the other hand, with some folks, pharmaceutical therapy is physically required. It seems that many people who suffer from any form of addiction also suffer from either unmanageable anxiety or some other psychological/emotional distress which is genetically/physically charged.

I dated a fellow who would manage his anxiety with alcohol. His fear of being an alcoholic actually exacerbated his anxiety,...and his drinking. Finally, he was prescribed Buspar. That medication controlled his anxiety very well. However, he also engaged in cognitive-behavioral therapy to help him re-shape his perspective (mostly about himself).

After a year, he decided to go off the Buspar. Within a few months, notwithstanding continued cognitive-behavioral therapy, his anxiety began to become unmanageable. So, he went back to taking the Buspar and decided to stay on it. The CB therapy helped alot,...but the Buspar took care of that over which he had no control.

We are all unique. There is no one answer that fits all. So, we just have to find "the answer" that fits our unique needs.

You have been persistent and I believe you will find what you need.

[Westegg]

73. Thanks. Your words, insight and experience are helpful...

An hour after I wrote what I wrote, I'm questioning my having sent that post. Perhaps it was something I should have kept private? But I said what I said and sent it out, so no sense crying over the milk of my soul that I chose to spill at that particular moment in time, I guess. And if it was only to get your response, "Just Me," then I'm glad I did so, and it was worth it.

[Blue_Roses]

86. this is something that is rarely talked about

however it's starting to get more recognition these days. As someone who has an ADHD spouse and being ADD myself, I see how "self-medicating" can happen. I wasn't diagnosed until well into my 30's, so alcohol was the only thing I found to help "focus" and spouse found pot helped him to focus.


After being diagnosed and taking meds it makes a profound difference. I began going to support group meetings for adults with ADHD and it's amazing how so many used the same way to "self-medicate" until they got on some real meds to help. I go to a neurologist who is awesome and cuts to the chase on what causes so many of these so-called "behavioral choices" as so many like to put it. It is a real neurological problem and just treating it as a "bad behavior" doesn't work.

I know every diagnosis is different, but I relate to your story well.

[RetroLounge]

76. BigBigBear, my condolences go out to you

I lost my Uncle last week to the same...

RL

[progressivebydesign]

79. I'm so sorry..

Life can be such a hard road, and none of us can ever know who hard the road is for anyone else. My sympathies to you. :grouphug:

[Lisa0825]

3. I don't believe there are any ''always'' answers to this.

I don't believe the disease theory of alcoholism. Plus, they are many levels of dependence/addiction. Some people may be fine just learning how to moderate, and others may have to stay away from it completely forever. Some people can quit cold turkey on their own, and others really need a doctor's care.

Here is a site I found when I was looking for info moderation vs. abstinence. www.moderation.org. Moderation Management is an alternative to the 12-step program. It's not for everybody, and it is probably more for people with dependence, rather than addiction, but I think it is good to have a variety of options for a variety of people.

[Wright Patman]

4. You don't get over it

There is no cure for alcoholism. Only by total abstinence can an alcoholic arrest the development of what is a progressive and eventually fatal, in most cases, disease.

And, yes, I do go to "meetings." Sometimes only another person who has been through what you have can relate to you. If you have never had a problem with alcohol, you literally just can't understand the concept of how a person could go on drinking one after another as if they were Lay's Potato Chips or something.

"Moderate" drinkers not only stop after one or two drinks. They tell me if they drank anything over that, they get sick. That's bizarre to me. But then I never had a problem with tobacco and the smokers have the same chain-reaction approach to that.

I don't know if it would do * any good. I don't much think so, but then I also tend to question the sincerity of his "conversion." It appears to me he has been converted into a bloodthirsty orgasm-inducing death cult which bears no resemblance to the Gospel proclaimed by Jesus Christ.

[reprehensor]

5. Alcoholism.

I've heard it's for life. From alcoholics.

Self-treat can be done. I've seen it.

Don't have an answer to the last questions.

[bluedog]

13. I was.Am

Alcoholics should never drink again.....not even 2% drinks.
The urge to drink is always there.especially when others around you are drinking...I got help from my family and from AA who gave me many items to read.this helped alot.but mostly I think it was my passing out one night when walking and found myself on the side of the road in a ditch...to this day I don't know what happened....

Never again did I have a drink..not that I don't want to.under pressure and stress I think about it...I get totally bitchy.....don't want to be around anyone.(this is why we shouldn't be left alone) when we feel the need....

so yes, I have been alcoholic free % years now.....

And yes...bush is fighting his urge to start again.if he already hasn't.......the moods he gets.from being goofy(drinking or knows he going to have one)...to his out and out anger(knowing he can't drink today........

[seabeyond]

6. i have a brother, carbon of bush character

behavior and personality. is it the character that allows the alcoholism or the alcohol that chreates this character.

i have read articles on the dry drunk, and that is what i see with my brother. that is interesting article if anyone has and puts on here. it is just exactly right on.

i dont think that all people that are hooked on alocoholic is this type of alcoholic. what i find more with this person, it the body is allergic to the alchol. its body react and send chemicals unlike others that drink excessively.

[Marnieworld]

8. Contrary to AA Propaganda...

The majority of people that have beaten abuse of alcohol have quit on their own. AA is just an opinion. Unfortunately for many people that need help, are atheists or at least not responsive to the heavily religious nature of the "program" it is the established opinion.

Obviously you are making a point of Bush being a lifelong alcoholic, white knuckled dry drunk (all AA phrases)and a bad leader based on the philosophy of AA. Do I think Bush has done any soul searching, psychological healing, on his own or with help outside of a program? Nope. I think he's a nutcase sociopath with a probable narcissitic personality disorder. I think he took his addiction to alcohol and replaced the physical need for highs with exercise and the psychological need not to examine oneself or anything really (a common reason for numbing oneself with drugs and alcohol) with fundamentalistic christianity.

I realize that AA does help some people and that what I am saying may surprise or offend some which is not my intention. I just want to provide an alternative thought which should be an acceptable practice on a message board of people who clearly like to question established "facts."

For further info see:

http://rational.org/ about Rational recovery and look on Amazon for any book especially "Addiction is a Choice."

[Lisa0825]

10. good points. I also read up on RR as well as MM.

[Junkdrawer]

25. "AA Propaganda" ?!?!? - Keep Coming Back...

;)

[CaptainClark23]

46. it works when you work it.

well put, thank you.

[Junkdrawer]

53. Just because I found 16+ years of comfortable, productive sobriety...

in AA (after 18 years of hell) doesn't mean that everyone can or will. And guess what? While I embrace a search for spirituality (read purpose and meaning in my life), I strongly reject the notion of an anthropomorphic God. You decide if that makes me an atheist. And where I have done AA, my opinion represents a large, growing faction in AA.

As we say in our traditions, attraction rather than promotion.

[Lisa0825]

55. for SOME people. It's not the right way for everyone...

It's too much like religion, in that so many members say it's the only way. It's NOT the only way, and other ways work for people too.

[chiburb]

38. Nicely written, thank you. n/t

.

[stevedeshazer]

44. Excellent

I recommend Rational Recovery. It helped me tremendously. One has to decide for her/himself to stop drinking or to moderate. There is no other way.

I have no grudge against AA, but I'm an atheist, and AA requires you to acknowledge a higher power that in my core I don't believe in. I do have a friend of similar belief who was able to identify herself as her own "higher power" and be successful using the AA model. That doesn't likely work for everyone.

[graham67]

11. In my experience....

I was married to a raging alcoholic for many years and did Al-Anon to try to cope with it. In my experience, self-treatment doesn't work. That white-knuckle approach, the "I can control it" thing doesn't work. An alcoholic doesn't experience sobriety unless they first admit they actually have a problem and deal with the underlying reasons for it. Every person has their own strategies to remain sober. It's impossible to say that one method works best.

And yes, an alcoholic remains an alcoholic for life. They can be recovering or not. It's a lifelong battle.

[GreenPartyVoter]

12. For life. And it seems like ongoing maintenance is most helpful.

[KayLaw]

14. M-i-l quit on her own

I think she takes tranquilizers, though. Her s-i-l also just plain quit. They seem okay, though sometimes my m-i-l acts drunk - could be the pills.

[graham67]

15. This is just my opinion...

Most of the people I've known who tried to get sober on their own move from one addiction to another. So, they can give up alcohol but move on to something else, not necessarily a drug, but something that can be just as damaging, like overeating, chainsmoking, that sort of thing.

[arwalden]

18. Could megalomania or cruelty be considered an "addiction" too?

[graham67]

21. Probably not an addiction...

More like an illness manifesting itself in behaviors. My ex thought the world revolved around him (and I was fucked up too, my world revolved around him being drunk) and he was incredibly, coldly cruel to the people most closely associated with him.

[arwalden]

26. You're Correct. It's An Illness. --- But Could It Be A Substitution

or an emotional replacement for alcoholism? If their mind is the type that "needs" the excessive unhealthy behavior... will they simply move from excess to excess, abusing themselves and others as well?

-- Allen

(CRAP! My not knowing the correct clinical or technical terms to us puts me at a bit of a disadvantage when it comes to constructing a coherent question or premise... so I hope you can figure out what I'm trying to say.)

[graham67]

29. Well....

I have to keep saying that this is only my personal experiences. I'm not an expert of any kind.

The drunks I know do so because it numbs them emotionally and physically. You take away the alcohol and the nasty behaviors come forth. Does that make any sense?

I do know one man, only one, who had no particular reason why he drinks to excess. He just like the taste and the buzz. He found recovery pretty easily. The ones I know who have had underlying emotional problems didn't recover as easily, or not at all so far.

[jukes]

40. arwalden

yes

[jukes]

39. arwalden

in my opinion yes, but it IS blurry, since these are also symptoms manifest in the dependent personality. if you substitute power, and the ruthless, fanatical need to display that power, you're dead on.

[Cleita]

16. Well, one of my occupations was as a bartender

so my observation was that people who are alcoholics are for life, an observation that AA has made. Part of the treatment involves the alcoholic having to ask forgiveness from everyone they may have hurt during their alcoholic years. If they don't do this, it is believed that they can't move on even if they have stopped drinking through sheer will power.

As for what constitutes an alcoholic, alcoholism comes in as many variations as there are people, so you may have a falling down drunk, or a functioning person, who holds down a job. There is always something though that gives them away. It's almost really up to the person or those close to them to realize that s/he has a problem and that it is adversely affecting their life and the lives of the people in their orbit.

On edit: I forgot to add that one of my aunts was an alcoholic and she tore the family apart for years. Many of us are suspicious that she caused my grandmother's death in one of her drunken rages.

[Atman]

19. Try SOS, too

Secular Organization for Sobriety. I read a bunch of their literature, which is as interesting as anything else.

Not the AA higher-power approach, just a lot of listening to yourself and having faith in your own abilities.

Personally, I quit cold turkey 7 years ago. I researched all sorts of alts to AA -- I just couldn't deal with the god stuff and the lifelong fraternity they encourage...I just wanted to be free of the need to drink! In the end, I "joined" nothing, I just did a lot of research. What I found was that no method of quitting works better than any other, if the person is determined to quite. AA is better for people being forced to quit by the government (like the DMV!), or who simply need the support group and the ability to deflect some blame when they fail a few times. Nothing wrong with that...there are lots of personality types in the world. If you're strong willed and determined to go it alone, there is no reason you shouldn't be able to.

[Lisa0825]

22. The problem is that AA is so ''powerful'' that all alternatives, like SOS

are generally disparaged as worthless. The truth is that AA has a very low success rate, but they love to criticize every other organization that tries to help people in a different way.

[RetroLounge]

31. You are spreading lies and bullshit

Show me ONE link, ONE source, ONE time where AA has (officially) put down another organization and said they are the only way. You can't.

AA has never claimed to be the one and only way. Never.

If someone gets sober on their own, great. If they do so in Church, great. If they do so in RR, great. If they do so in SOS, great. If they do so by Hypnotism, great. It doesn't matter. As long as they are alive. This disease kills, period, and I don't give a flying fuck how someone gets sober, as long as they do.

My Uncle died of this disease last week. I would rather he was sober chanting on a mountaintop and worshipping squirells if it kept him alive. But he's dead and leaves a wife and family behind.

The truth is that ALL PROGRAMS have a very low success rate, but people love to criticize AA for whatever reason. I think a few posters here need some work on their AA resentments...

I'd rather be sober in AA by mistake than drunk and dead by mistake.

RL

[Lisa0825]

32. I'm sorry about your uncle.

I shouldn't have said AA as in the organization, but many of its proponents, its members, the courts, and the medical profession all tend to discount other types of programs, and tout AA as the only way. I have been flamed many times on other sites, just for offering up MM or RR as an alternative, and there have also been articles published and stories on news programs twisting the stats to make other programs look bad.

[RetroLounge]

36. Okay, I see where you are coming from

Yes, sadly people who don't know any better try to speak for the organization and often give the wrong impression.

I am long-time sober in AA, but would NEVER tell someone what they should do or where they should go or that AA is the only way. It's not. No one has the market on sobriety, even though treatment centers tried to make it a business and ended up doing some harm as well as some good, IMO.

I think the stats are something like 10% success rate. I'm glad to still be in that 10%.

Sorry for the flame.

RL

[Lisa0825]

41. No problem. I should have worded my message better in the first place:-)

It's a very emotionally charged issue, and proponents of the various programs all have very strong opinions. Plus, many of us have lost loved ones to the health effects of alcohol abuse. I lost my dad to a combination of effects of alcohol and smoking.

[Mountainman]

66. AA admits there is a low success rate 10%

AA says that there are those unfortunates that cannot stop drinking but rarely have they seen someone fail who has followed the 12 step path.

AA is not like a treatment. It is something you do. You are not sent to an institution where professionals help you with your addiction. It is a program that you work for the rest of your life.

So to say that AA has a poor success rate is to say that many people who have gone to meetings chose to drink rather than live the program.

It is not a bad thing to say that many alcoholics never stop drinking even though they have gone to AA meetings. It is just a fact of life. But most of those who do live the program never go back to drinking. That is also a fact of life. But those people are about 10% of persons who have gone to meetings.

[graham67]

27. I know what you mean about higher power.....

I went to Al-Anon for quite some time. I'm not at all spiritual so the "higher power" stuff was totally beyond me. But I did get a lot of help without that. I don't know where I'd be right now without it.

As for court-ordered AA, I never met anyone who got anything out of it. In my county, if you get caught driving drunk they send you to the Salvation Army motel for a weekend of AA meetings then they're required to continue with the meetings for a period of time afterward. I knew people who went to the meetings drunk, laughed it off, and just got smarter about not getting busted driving drunk.

[Susang]

20. I'm from a family with a history of alcoholism

Not my immediate family, but my extended family (both grandfathers were alcoholics, my uncle, cousin, among others). In my opinion (non professional), it is such a varied and difficult situation, and effective treatment appears to be different for each person. The latest research appears to be showing that alcoholics (if they survive) tend to stop on their own around 40.

Unfortunately, treatment success rates are poor and recidivism is pretty much a given. AA has a pretty poor rate of success, though that's hidden from the general public. An epilepsy drug called Topamax is showing promise, as it works on impulse control centers in the brain and appears to seriously curb the urge to drink. Anti-depressants have been effective for some.

This area is a very tricky area to delve into, as there is so much emotion, bad science, and misinformation out there. Be careful and keep that healthy skepticism, it will serve you well.

[Lisa0825]

24. very well-said!

[doni_georgia]

23. Here's an article by a social worker who works with alocoholics on Bush

http://hnn.us/articles/1434.html

My uncle is a social worker at the NIH who works with alcoholics/addicts (yes, government employees). He has said from the beginning that Bush is a "dry drunk." He quit drinking but did not to alter his behaviors including those which led to his abusing alcohol to begin with. You see this syndrome a lot with people who replace their alcohol addiction with a religious addiction.

Exerpt from the article:

What is the dry drunk syndrome? "Dry drunk" traits consist of:

Exaggerated self-importance and pomposity
Grandiose behavior
A rigid, judgmental outlook
Impatience
Childish behavior
Irresponsible behavior
Irrational rationalization
Projection Overreaction

Clearly, George W. Bush has all these traits except exaggerated self-importance. He may be pompous, especially with regard to international dealings, but his actual importance hardly can be exaggerated. His power, in fact, is such that if he collapses into paranoia, a large part of the world will collapse with him. Unfortunately, there are some indications of paranoia in statements such as the following: "We must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends." The trait of projection is evidenced here as well, projection of the fact that we are ready to attack another nation which may not be so inclined

[arwalden]

28. DAMN!! Dead On! (More...)

This is frighteningly accurate. This should be on the cover of TIME magazine. Why hasn't 60-Minutes featured this guy?

http://hnn.us/articles/1434.html

<SNIP>

Bush's rigid, judgmental outlook comes across in virtually all his speeches. To fight evil, Bush is ready to take on the world, in almost a Biblical sense. Consider his statement with reference to Israel: "Look, my job isn't to try to nuance. I think moral clarity is important... this is evil versus good."

Bush's tendency to dichotomize reality is not on the Internet list above, but it should be, as this tendency to polarize is symptomatic of the classic addictive thinking pattern. I describe this thinking distortion in Addiction Treatment: A Strengths Perspective as either/or reasoning--"either you are with us or against us." Oddly, Bush used those very words in his dealings with other nations. All-or-nothing thinking is a related mode of thinking commonly found in newly recovering alcoholics/addicts.

Such a world view traps people in a pattern of destructive behavior.

Obsessive thought patterns are also pronounced in persons prone to addiction. There are organic reasons for this due to brain chemistry irregularities; messages in one part of the brain become stuck there. This leads to maddening repetition of thoughts. President Bush seems unduly focused on getting revenge on Saddam Hussein ("he tried to kill my Dad") leading the country and the world into war, accordingly.

<SNIP>

[Lancer]

30. I have been sober for 6 1/2 years

but consider myself a recovering alcoholic. I did not go to AA until I had been on the wagon for three years, and it did not help me much. I went to three different groups to see which one was best for me. One thing they all had in common was not helpful to me—constant recountings of horror stories about members' drinking days—even from those who had been sober for decades.

I rarely think about my drinking past; I never hurt anyone else through my drinking, only myself. I know that I could backslide at any time, so I choose to steer clear of most situations where alcohol will be the main focus.

Godspeed to anyone trying to lick this problem on their own; may you find support through AA is that is your chosen method of coping, and my deepest sympathies to those here who have lost loved ones to alcoholism.

:grouphug:

[WoodrowFan]

33. my 2 cents

If someone is an alcoholic are they an alcoholic for life, or just while they are abusing alcohol?
For life.

Is there any danger or unintended effect for alcoholics "self treat" themselves and stay white-knuckle sober by sheer willpower?
Yes, besides the danger of massive slips and binges, the addiction may manifest itself in other ways, such as drugs or sex or food, etc. Besides, white-knuckling is torture when a good 12 step program will help end the pain though treatment of the underlying cause.

Is it always better for alcoholics to be treated professionally? And is it always necessary for alcoholics to remain in some sort of ongoing maintenance program?
Yes and yes.

And you know why I'm asking and to whom I'm referring... but generic answers will be fine.
I don't know but my prayers are with whoever it is.

[jukes]

34. bush has a dependent personality

he's a multi-dependent, ie, can & will switch his "drug" of choice whenever convenient. his "faith" is just another dependency; a common 1 for chemical dependents to switch to. often that gives an initial appearance of sobriety & stability; just as often that leads to abuse of religion w/the same symptoms of alcohol/chemical/sexual addiction.

most "white-knucklers" have found a substitute. the problem remains that the apparent "symptoms"; grandiosity, unreasonable resentments, etc are still fed by the new dependence.


personally, i think bush is in full-blown addict/denial mode. i think he gets all the meds he wants from his handlers. i think his messianistic grandiosity is as much an addiction as a symptom.

this will piss people off (i ALWAYS seem to piss people off) but there's no such thing as a cured C/D; but sometimes a much less-destructive addiction (sometimes AA) can be helpful.

unfortunately, IMO, (i'm sorry, this will sound arrogant, & i have been called arrogant on this board often enough, but i am an 'expert witness' in dependency, & have been called upon to testify in federal cases) AA has been "infiltrated" by xian fundamentalists, and some resultant re-alignment of the disorder has been to that much-more-harmful addiction; rapture & religious fervor.

(this for freeplurks) in my OPINION, neal horsely, former drug dealer & addict; currently linked (by admission) w/ the "army of god" & publisher of the infamous "nuremburg list", is a prime example of one whose new addiction is more destructive to society than his original persona.

a direct answer to your question: bush, a meat-puppet shill for the neocon cabal, is a hopeless case, in part because his masters feed his addictions, like a pimp handing out "candy" to his stable. mostly, because he likes the "rush" too much to give it up. booze, coke, whatever his handlers are feeding him BID, power: it all feeds his addiction, & he'll NEVER quit.

[arwalden]

43. Thanks VERY Much. --- Your Comment About Infiltration...

... seems dead on as well.

One other question that I *almost* included in my original message was one about the theist aspect of AA. --- Since a strong belief in a "higher power" is central to the recovery process, does AA not work for atheists? Or are atheists pressured to believe in gods in order to continue or complete (or even PARTICIPATE) in AA?

-- Allen

[Mountainman]

68. In AA you turn your life over god as you understand him

I think that if you don't believe in a higher power you will never want to turn your life over so you probably will try to deal with your problems yourself.

That's OK. I think you must choose your own path.

[CBHagman]

35. A couple of comments.

First of all, if someone is an alcoholic, he/she is an alcoholic, full stop, for the rest of his/her life. The question is whether he/she is actively in recovery.

It's not a moral judgment to call someone an alcoholic. Alcoholism is a disease, but one that must be treated.

And it's a disease that runs in families, no question about it.

Besides, it's one of many addictions. I always like to say that there's a dysfunctional way to do anything, from parenting to eating to worshipping God. Check out the book "Love Is a Choice" if you want a Christian 12-step view of various addictions.

And from what I know, the only successful ways to treat alcoholism involve some variation of the 12-step program. It can be modified according to beliefs (for example, for atheists and agnostics), but it's still the basis for recovery.

[fairfaxvadem]

37. The Family Illness...

Our family is fairly typical with multi-member alcoholics. What I've found is that it varies, from the ones who simply drink 24/7 to those who are "alcoholic" by definition because they simply can't handle it, not necessarily a quantity thing. Some relatives were hospitalized, some quit on their own, and one or two are still in denial including one of my brothers.

The other interesting aspect is those of us who are simply NOT alcoholics and we are also not teetotallers. It's just that booze is not a component of our daily lives.

How much is it the genetic roll of the dice? My sister and I also wonder about the correlation between depression and that it may be an indicator of whether one may be more susceptible to alcoholism.

Having 5 siblings, we are a microcosm of this. 3 are alcoholics, 3 are not, and the three of us who are not have always had alcohol aroudn in our houses and are not opposed to imbibing. Why we escaped the family curse, we don't know.

Once we discovered how rampant it was in the lives of our parents growing up too, issues of "the past" made a lot more sense, though, I can tell you.

If you read the book RECOVERY : A GUIDE FOR ADULT CHILDREN OF ALCOHOLICS, you will be surprised how much of yourself you recognize, if that was your situation as a kid. It was painful to read but worth it. There are alot of us out there.

[Lisa0825]

45. Daily drinking, depression, etc...

It's just that booze is not a component of our daily lives.

How much is it the genetic roll of the dice? My sister and I also wonder about the correlation between depression and that it may be an indicator of whether one may be more susceptible to alcoholism.

Alcohol had become a part of my nightly habits. I didn't get the shakes without it. It didn't affect my relationships or my work. I never hurt anyone because of it. I COULD abstain (and had) for a month at a time when I chose to. All those things I was supposed to apologize for, according to AA. All but steps 4 and 10 seemed totally NOT for me. But I wanted to cut back and so I sought out alternatives. The one I liked best is Moderation Management.

One of the main reasons I made that choice was that I felt like I was starting to have some mild healt effects from the alcohol. For one thing, I was drinking a lot of extra calories per day, and it was starting to turn into extra pounds. My blood pressure also went from being low to borderline high. I read about all the physical signs of alcohol abuse, and started toget paranoid that every minor twitch was alcohol-related. I imagined myself deterioratiing the way my dad did. So, I decided I want to stay healthy as I age, and the alcohol would have to be very regulated.

Anyway, what I am getting at is that daily drinking, even when you feel in control of your life, could still be a negative, depending on how much one drinks.

I do believe that alcohol use is related to depression. People who are depressed (along with those with other mental illnesses) often find themselves self-medicating with alcohol or other substances. It takes the edge off, though the depression doesn't really go away. I know that is what I have done.

[fairfaxvadem]

56. It's an interesting thing about substance abuse period.

I was quite the partier back in the day. For whatever reason, some of us were able to walk away without a single problem. Others haven't faired so well, whether it is still drug-related or alcoholism.

I can say without hesitation that when it comes to drugs and alcohol, I am not "physically" susceptible to addiction.

Now, interestingly, I had the dickens of a time quitting smoking. And that was pretty scary. I didn't think quitting would be a big deal since I had no physical, mental or emotional trouble walking way from the heavy partying of my teens and 20s. One day I just decided I had other interests and that was it. But I was addicted to nicotine, there is no doubt about it. Quitting the stogies sucked but it had to be done.

[rppper]

82. as a recovering addict and someone who works in the industry....

i would like to add my two cents worth about AA and NA....

alcoholism and drug addiction ARE diseases...look for the parameters of a "disease" according to the AMA and tell me otherwise....

someone earlier in the thread mentioned that some alcoholics/addicts go into a management system, and i have personally known more than a fair share...be it pills or marijuana....they get chips for clean time and speak at meetings too. do they mention their maintainence programs...never....a dirty little secret.

personally, my troubles were never with alcohol(at least that was what i told myself for many years...more...)...methamphetamine was my drug of choice, followed by lsd and pot. i was never a drinker untill my stint in the military. oddly enough, getting off drugs was a major reason i joined. i just replaced speed with something that was not only legal, but encouraged(unofficially of course)in the military. trading off addictions landed me 30 days in a navy rehab. on day 31...the whole class got drunk at a strip club....i never slowed down untill my last 3 months in...i had too..i was taking on two children and starting over...i stopped cold turkey, but started smoking pot again, only drinking on rare occasions.

i stopped smoking weed 3 years ago, mainly due to the fact that good jobs come with urine tests. i still only drank on occasion. i entered the world of rehabs at the same time. the job itself kept me in check with my drinking...i see the results of hard living daily. i am a friend and confidant to these people, but i am not shy about pointing out what has happened to them...they need the reminders...

a year ago i stopped drinking because i had an experience that warranted it. i had never thought myself a true addict untill that moment. after a night of clubbing, and a rare heavy drunk under my belt, my drinking buddy and the two ladies we had met at the club were sitting at home afterwards, shooting the shit and sobering up. my friend pulls out a bag of crystal meth and asks one of the ladies to line it up....i had been speed free since 1988, but in that second, it all came back to me....the smell of the ether, the tingling of my scalp, the sweat...all of it...and it took everything in my powers to get up and walk away from the table and go home. as i thought about it later, i came to realize that it was the alcohol whioch caused that moment of weakness. i have not touched it since. i am the ultimate designated driver.

my point to this whole matter is that NA addresses the problem of maintainence...it considers alcohol a drug just like it considers cocaine, lsd, heroin or any other substance that alters the mind a drug. hardcore AA oldtimers would rather you shoot them than listen to a tale about drugs. there is a lot of close mindedness among some AA factions about NA, although bill w, AA's founder, encouraged the use of the twelve steps for addicts. there is more clean time at AA, but there is more genuine love and help for newcomers at NA, at least this has been my observation.

at any rate, the success rate for addicts helping other addicts thru AA or NA hovers between 5 and 10%, while professionally run rehab programs like the one i work at come in at around 15 to 20%. 10% for free isn't a bad stat when you see it from that angle. it works if you work it...true and false...it works for a lot of people, it doesnt for others. but many times for the "others", nothing is ever going to work. thats just the nature of the beast. even the best rehabs will tell you that following the twelve steps after your stint there is the best way, so in essence, you have just paid a councelor upwards of 20k dollars to tell you to go to AA/NA when you could have wen't for free.

i still don't work a program, but i am not white knuckling it either. the meetings i go to and my job keep me in check. i have seen both AA and NA work miracles though...and i do feel the best way for one addict to recover is thru the help of other, clean living and recovering addicts...who better to know the pain of what that addict is feeling than another addict???

[Samurai_Writer]

87. *hugs rppper*

Thanks for sharing your story with us, rppper. No one in my immediate family ever had any problems with drugs or alcohol. I had an uncle, aunt, and two cousins who are/were alcoholics and/or drug addicts. I dated an alcholic who started going to AA while we were together as well. It worked for her, but she was religious to begin with. I tried going to Al-Anon and to the open AA meetings with her, but could just not get past the whole God thing. She's been sober ever since, though, so good for her.

I truly believe that the most compassionate, caring, and /rational/ people I have ever met are ones who have gone through major trauma in their lives, whether it be drug/alcohol addiction, being a survivor of some type of violence or having survived some life-changing event. And knowing you as I do, rppper, I can honestly say you are one of the most compassionate and rational people I have ever 'met'. Well, not met in person, but maybe someday, if you ever get a weekend off work! ;)

[Susang]

57. Not to mention the correlation between ADHD and substance abuse

Mental illness is a component that is sorely lacking in many treatment programs, other than the therapy related to the substance abuse itself. While that's not true of every program, the one that one of my relatives attended did not even bother to examine her history of attention deficit disorder. Despite evidence to the contrary, they didn't think it was an issue in her substance abuse.

[JayS]

58. Funny you should mention ADHD...

A friend of mine was a little too heavy into beer. His doctor suspected he was ADHD and did a trial run of Adderall. He pretty much quit the beer because the Adderall slowed down his head, which is what he wanted. I have heard this more and more since I started paying attention to the issue.

[Susang]

63. The issue is far more complex than many would like to believe

Unfortunately, recovery has now become a multi-million dollar industry that counts on poor success rates and relapse to make its money. Not the people who work in the trenches, mind you, but the institutions themselves. Combine that with stubborn minded addiction theorists and you don't get much forward movement in the field.

[JayS]

64. It is a multi-million dollar industry now...like weight loss, smoking...

...cessation, nutrition supplements......

Sad, is it not?

The only sameness I have found in all people is that they are all very different. I can imagine how difficult it is to study in the addiction field.

Did you look at the link I provided for Dr. Bankole A. Johnson?

http://www.gday-mate.com/alcoholism/

[Susang]

65. That was informative, thanks

I had read some of the info in other places, but its good to have it all condensed on one page. I'm bookmarking that link! :-)

I'm surprised he didn't mention Topamax, but I didn't check the date the article was written. I actually take Topamax myself (for thyroid related weight gain and atypical depression) and found my desire to drink plummeted. I went from drinking socially often to hardly ever. I'm predicting that if it ever gets approved for use in alcohol treatment, its going to be huge.

[JayS]

71. I am pretty sure that he works with Topamax also. I know he...

...works with all sorts of drugs and is always recruiting volunteers. There is usually quite a lot of detail on his work on his University page. One of his experiments was running something like a 66% success rate!

If this world had its values in place this Dr. Johnson would be a household name and the other Dr. Johnson would be just some guy that plays basketball. :)

[JayS]

42. This may be of interest to y'all.

Google searches for Dr. Bankole A. Johnson will produce a lot of great information.


http://www.gday-mate.com/alcoholism/

Important information on alcoholism.

Investigators at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio report in the lead article in today’s Journal of the American Medical Association (Volume 284, Number 8) that the medication ondansetron may be an effective therapy for patients with early-onset alcohol dependence (alcoholism). Ondansetron appears to work by acting on serotonin, one of the brain’s many neurotransmitters. The study was supported by the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism and led by Bankole A. Johnson, M.D., Ph.D., chief of the Division of Alcohol and Drug Addiction, Department of Psychiatry, UTHSC.

"Dr. Johnson’s findings are consistent with a lengthy literature on serotonin dysfunction among early-onset alcoholics," said NIAAA Director Enoch Gordis, M.D. "If confirmed in future studies, they may predict new treatments for a subgroup of patients who often are resistant to behavioral therapies alone."

Early-onset (< age 25) alcoholism is a clinical alcoholism subtype, or typology, in which patients have a greater family history of alcoholism, increased propensity for antisocial behaviors, and a more stable and severe disease state than those with late-onset alcoholism. First devised in Europe and the United States more than a century ago and more recently posited by E.M. Jellinek in 1961, C. Robert Cloninger in 1987, and Thomas F. Babor in 1992, among others, typologies are used in research to categorize the empirical contributions of various biological and environmental influences on alcoholism. In clinical settings, typologies may guide treatment decisions; treatment responses in turn may provide clues to the neurochemical factors that mediate different behavioral aspects of the disease.

Today’s report is based on a study conducted between 1995 and 1999, in which 271 patients with diagnosed alcoholism were randomized to receive one of three different doses of either ondansetron or placebo for 11 weeks. Compared with those who received the placebo, all groups of ondansetron patients with early-onset alcoholism had fewer drinks per day and drinks per drinking day. Early-onset patients in the most successful ondansetron group (patients who received 4mg/kg twice daily) also reported a significant increase in the percentage of days abstinent and total days abstinent per study week. The researchers found no differences between ondansetron patients with late-onset alcoholism and those who received placebo.

*SNIP*

[JayS]

59. Has anyone heard of this treatment? n/t

n/t

[porphyrian]

47. Links, Links, Links

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/p020256.html

http://www.nvo.com/hypoism/recentgeneticstudiesonvariousaddictionsfromalargetwinregistr/

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/bb/neuro/neuro02/web1/trajan.html

[arwalden]

60. Thanks, Thanks, Thanks

:-) :-) :-)

- Allen, Allen, Allen

[kaitykaity]

48. As a self-treater, there's no white knuckles involved.

If a person wants to be sober, he or she will be sober.
I've been sober for four years June 4, and I think about
drinking sometimes every day.

But I don't drink. My decision.

I don't go to meetings. I'm an agnostic/athiest and
I couldn't get past the "higher power" cultiness of
the AA mantra.

Also, I'm a girl, and the AA creed was written for
egotistical men who had a problem admitting their lives
were "out of control."

Based on my past history, if I drink again I'll be dead.
The worst that happened to me was I ended up in the drunk
tank for a night, but the problem with the disease is that
for alcoholics the behavior always gets worse.

FWIW, the old saw is true. "One is too many and a hundred
is not enough."

[Outlaw420]

50. My experience

I come from a long line of alcoholics my father, his father, and my great grandfather also were all addicted to it and i also fell right along with them but i have found my way out thru a substitute. Now you may think this is an extreme way to go but I sat down a figured out the least harmful between the two and I am now no longer dependant upon alcohol thanks to Marijuana. Say what you will but i believe it has saved my life and helped me out in ways i never thought possible before. I do still smoke on ocasion but i can and have gone for months at a time without any kind of drugs. Again that is just my experience with alcohol.

[RetroLounge]

77. "Now you may think this is an extreme... "

no, just silly.

But to each his own...

RL

[pnb]

51. It depends on the alcoholic

There is no textbook type answer to your question. Some people can do just fine on their own; others don't seem to be able to stop without obtaining help.

If often depends on the reasons for drinking as well. If its just a matter of physical addiction, that's one thing, but if the person is also drinking because of other problems in life and/or psychological problems, it can be awfully difficult to even consider dealing with the drinking aspect until there are improvements in those other factors.

I don't know anything about the situation you allude to so I couldn't make any judgment about that.

[Malva Zebrina]

52. I do not believe that Bush ever stopped drinking

I mean it. I think he pretended to do so in order to get the schtick that he was saved from alcoholism by Jesus, but I think he still drinks.

He lies so much, that my perception is as good as any.

I do not believe he would ever submit to any program unless forced to by a judge. \

He, like a lot of fundamentalists who claim they were saved from alcoholism by Jesus, have no insight at all into why they developed the habit or the addiction.

In Bush's case, I think he should go on his merry way to Crawford after he is defeated by Kerry--and drink himself to death there. I predict he will do so and we will see pictures of him weaving and posturing in a drunken stupor, with Laura the upholstered holding him up because she cannot leave him --

[arwalden]

62. Is Communion Wine Not Considered "Drinking"?

Is that how he justifies it?

[Mountainman]

61. I'm an alcoholic, sober for + 20 years

I think alcoholics are alcoholic for life. Once you get sober you can't become a social drinker. You can either stop drinking or be a drinking alcoholic.

There are many ways to stay sober. One way is to remember what life was like when you were drinking and not ever wanting to live like that again. It's sometimes called being sick and tired of being sick and tired.

I was never treated professionally other than the times I was in a drunk tank. I went to AA meetings but I no longer go yet I try to live the program. It had many more positive effects on me than just staying sober. The 12 steps are useful for many people in many different situations.

[SharonAnn]

67. Congratulations! Me too, sober for 19 years. Thanks to my

husband and my mother talking to me about my drinking (about a month apart) I finally realized that I wasn't fooling anyone. I was relatively high-functioning but was becoming aware that I could lose everything and it was my choice.

I was able to call my employer's "Employee Assistance Program" and get out-patient treatment. I attended AA regularly for a long time but have not in recent years. The treatment and the AA meetings, what I learned from them, the care and concern of the people I met there, were an enormous help to me.

I'm so grateful that treatment and AA were available to me and that I was able to figure out that I needed to take advantage of them. I will not hesitate to return if I feel that certain kind of "stress" again.

To me, succcessfully recovering alcoholics have a warmth, a happiness, an encouragement, and a tolerance about them. They smile a lot and somehow we just feel better being around them. I hope to be like that.

[Mountainman]

70. When I first got sober I wanted serenity real bad!

After years of hell, I was ready for years of serenity. Well I waited and waited but it didn't come. What I learned was that in life there is pain and there is pleasure. You have to feel both and deal with them with out a crutch. Once I accepted life on it's terms, I began to feel some serenity. But is not a 24/7 thing.

[JayS]

74. For a "humorous" look at addiction y'all should read...

...Infinite Jest by David Foster Wallace. I'd bet that y'all will get a big kick out of it.

[bobthedrummer]

75. Tomorrow will be my 23rd "anniversary" of the beginning of my recovery

My only views are that an alcoholic is always an alcoholic and there is a genetic component. For me it was AA for many, many years.
If a person has a sincere DESIRE to want to quit there are many options available, but if that genuine DESIRE to want to quit isn't there the outcome is usually bad.

My father died of alcoholism, I take the medical model viewpoint pretty seriously.

Hope that helps.

[RetroLounge]

78. Rule 1 - Alcoholism kills!

Rule 2 - You cannot change Rule 1.

Many men in my family have died from this disease over the past 3 or 4 generations (The ones that I know of, there's probably more).

2 of us have gotten Sober and lived. Both of us went to AA. Like anything else, you get out of it what you put into it.

14 years and I still go regularly, if not for me, then for the new guy walking thru the door still shaking off the last drunk and not sure if he can stay sober. Helping them helps me.

Just my experience...

RL

[Warren DeMontague]

80. Okay, I'm Going To Wade Into This One... (useful link, too)

A Few Things. First off, my opinion of alcoholism- I think there are differing degrees and types of it, but I think fundamentally the kind that I have, and exists in my family, is primarially a biological, genetic disorder that has to do with the way the chemical, alcohol, is processed. There are probably other physiological processes involved as well, possibly involving chemicals called Tetra Hydro-Isoquinolines (I think) or THIQ's.. I used to be more up on the science, but I've had other shit on my mind lately, as it were. I'm an alcoholic who hasn't drank for about 3 years, now. Before that I went from being a daily drinker, to a binge drinker, with increasing periods of sobriety between the binges. I have spent plenty of time in AA rooms as well as involved with secular alternatives. My dad was a big 12-stepper, I have no problem crediting AA with probably saving his life, at least long enough for the cigarettes to kill him (irony intended).. But if I'm rigorously honest, I also firmly believe it took something from him in terms of his spirit and self-determination. I am certain, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that something genetic is happening with regards to alcoholism and my family. My dad had it, my great-great grandfather had it and died of cirrhosis at 44, that kind of thing. I don't believe the problem is that they passed down to me insufficient humility or belief in God. I simply do not believe that my physical inability to handle alcohol- and if you're an alcoholic like I am, no, you can't touch the stuff, not at all- has anything to do with my not believing in an invisible man in the sky, having a "spiritual illness", not atoning for my "sins", or not reading the bible enough. And these are all things I've been told in AA meetings. Also, it's my experience that the idea that AA and 12 step programs are the one and only way to sobriety is heavily engrained in that culture.
But, that's neither here nor there. I have no desire to get in a p*ssing contest with dedicated 12 steppers-- been there, done that, as well. If it works for you, more power (or powerlessness) to you- I don't have a problem with people for whom this approach works- but I do think that, if the gov't is going to be mandating treatment, they need to offer secular alternatives as well- because no matter what kind of pretzel-like semantic gymnastics you do to define a necessity of a belief in a "higher power" as non-religious, the bottom line is any sort of activity that ends in a group recitation of the lords prayer is fundamentally religious in nature. Therefore, when mandating this kind of thing, the gov't must make secular alternatives available to us nonbelievers.

Unfortunately, it also seems to be impossible to have a rational discussion about the relative merits of different approaches to treating alcoholism, without knee-jerk reactions from (some, not all) 12 step people. Again, I believe this is partially because it is a fundamental pillar of the 12 step belief system- at least, as far as I've been exposed to it- that, yes, it is the only way to sobriety. In fact, many AA people will tell you that it doesn't matter how long it's been since you've picked up a drink, if you're not going to meetings regularly, you're "not sober". Well, fine. I'm not sober, then. But personally, I've done a hell of a lot better on my own staying sober (or "sober") than I ever did sitting in AA meetings pretending to believe in a diety I don't think exists. For me, recovery has come gradually, and has mostly been in conjunction with making better choices around my health and my living situation, improving my diet, getting more exercise, and coming to believe on an almost cellular level that for me, drinking=extreme pain. I have no illusion that I will ever be able to drink again. Some (not all) AA folks will tell people that, if the program doesn't work for them, it must be because "they aren't working the program". I see a little bit of that here, and I recognize it right away. But the bottom line is, I know lots of people who have not been able to stay sober in AA, yet have flourished in Secular alternatives or have found other paths to sobriety. I don't believe there is "just one way", but if you need to believe that to stay sober, then be my guest. But I do think it's important for other people to know there are alternatives, and they work too.

For the record, I think "SOS" as a coherent organization is pretty much defunct. I think there were legal issues around that name.

These guys have secular meetings all over the country, now, as well as lots of other resources on the web:

Lifering Secular Recovery

Also, in regards to the first post: No, I don't think anyone who is truly an alcoholic (and by that, I mean someone with whatever it is that I have) can ever drink safely again. But I also think Bush's mental problems go way deeper than simply being a so-called "Dry (or not so dry) Drunk".

[nonkultur]

81. Alcoholism can be a symptom....

of more serious problems like axiety disorders, depression, bipolar, and schizophrenia. Easiest drug to self medicate with.

It is very important to determine if mental illness is a consideration when determining treatment.

[Lindsey]

83. Two sides:

I am a recovering alcoholic - 14 years sober. AA was very helpful to me and I have to admit that I take offense to anyone who speaks of AA in a negative way. I have no idea what the stats are in terms of success but even if it's 10% - hey, 10% IS 10%. I have never been into AA the way some people are but I still feel that it was instrumental in helping me become and in maintaing my sobriety.

Al-anon - my best friend (who's a gay male) had to end his relationship with his partner (just last year) because he couldn't take his partner's alcoholism anymore. I've never seen ANYONE so devastated. Al-anon literally made it possible for my friend to go on. If you're in Southern Cal., there's a really good gay & lesbian group that meets in Newport Beach on Monday nights.

[nonkultur]

85. AA is great when Alcohol is the only problem

It can cause alot of damage to people who actually have a mental illness.

I am glad the program works for you. Congrats on the 14 years, that is great.

[thebigmansentme]

84. well

i am not an alcoholic yet, but i will let you know in a couple of years

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

88. I'm sure you will receive many

answers from those more knowledgable than I about alcoholism. But I think this;
a) Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You cannot get rid of this condition. I am an alcoholic, therefore feel my opinion has some value here. It's like pouring bleach on a colored piece of cloth. It will never be the same again. As it is for we alcoholics. It never leaves us.
b)there is great danger of relapse without the fellowship or group power of AA meetings/sponsorship.
c)most of us believe and many others come to believe that the local AA network works better than treatment programs. Treatment programs like to imply a cure. There is no cure.
Thanks for asking...... my name is dyedinthewoolliberal and I am an alcoholic.

[Karenina]

89. Kick!

:kick: for self-awareness.