Driver Licenses for Illegals- up is down / black is white

[Hanuman]

Our Chief Bratton here in L.A. is saying that giving illegals the right to carry a legal drivers License will make us safer because it will reduce the number of hit and run accidents. I'd like to see the numbers on that. I'm not outright refuting it- but Bratton has not provided any documentary evidence to support this claim. Personally, I would say that the chances of getting them to stop will only increase once they have a valid license AND proof of insurance- and folks, that ain't gonna happen.

Yesterday, on NPR, I listened to a news story about the issue, which featured an interview with an illegal woman who had lived in the central valley for 16 years (!!!) and drove, without a license, from her home to her various farm jobs, usually over an hour.

The lady has been in the US for 16 years and she spoke no English and had not obtained a green card. She most likely has no SS documentation, so of course, it is unlikely she pays any income taxes either.

But, we're going to give her and at least two million other folks like her a drivers license. Why? Because it's the "right thing to do?" Because it will "keep us safer" from hit and runs? Because we'll be able to track these people better if their photograph is in a database?

Oh, boy... I have a rotten feeling about this.

Davis refused to sign this bill twice before citing various concerns, not the least of which was the fact that 9/11 terrorists obtained valid ID's and used them in their plots against us. He asked for stricter criminal background checks before the implementation of this law. Well, not anymore. He's ready to sign the bill as is.

I believe Davis is willing to sign this bill with the sole intention of currying favor from the Latino community to help him in his recall challenge. Nothing more.

And it makes me sick that I voted for him.

[sybylla]

1. Well, one way to reduce crime

is to make everything legal.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DuctapeFatwa]

3. Some facts about "undocumented "workers and income and SS taxes

Anyone working in the US using documents bought from someone other than the government pays income taxes, the same as anyone else.

The difference is, they don't get a refund, and they seldom know how to manipulate their W4 forms, so nearly all actually pay MORE income taxes than they owe.

The SS number they use is not theirs, it could be yours, or your neighbor's, but money is withheld and put into that number's account.

So they do pay SS taxes, they just won't ever get an SS benefit.

[Mel]

4. SS isn't the only taxes

they pay. They also pay taxes on food, clothing, shelter, and gas/transportation.

[DuctapeFatwa]

9. Yep, and they don't get workmen's comp for on the job accidents

In fact, most of them don't even get medical treatment when they're hurt on the job, beyond the first emergency visit.

Once there's an on the job injury, the state sends in that SS number, and when it comes up another name, bzzzt.

So an on the job injury usually means not only coming up with out of pocket money for treatment, or going untreated, but even if they are still able to work, they have to buy new papers and get a different job.

And I should have added in my first post, that the people who ARE working off the books, are usually getting LESS than the minimum wage, which is why the employer is hiring them off the books, and why most people just buy the papers and work on the books and pay taxes they don't owe, and into an SS fund they will never get credit for.

[Le Taz Hot]

5. THANK YOU!!!!

Living in the San Joaquin Valley, needless to say, there are a many UNDOCUMENTED WORKERS (please note phraseology here) who work 12-18 hour days in 105 degree heat (at least) for minimum wage with no benefits and no recourse if their employer decides not to pay them. They're terrified of being sent back so they try to stay out of the "system" as best they can and that includes Driver's Licenses and insurance. If they get into an accident, many times it IS a hit-and-run, NOT because they're irresponsible but because they're terrified of the INS.

For the most part, these are good, hard-working, honest people who are just seeking a better life. There is a limit to how many people the U.S. lets in legally from Mexico, Central America, South America and all other countries (except Cuba, of course). When your family is hungry and there are little or no employment and/or educational opportunities in your country of origin, you don't have time to wait 5 years for U.S. Immigration to consider your application. So they come to the U.S. JUST LIKE VIRTUALLY EVERY OTHER ETHNIC GROUP THAT HAS COME TO THIS COUNTRY.

I'm sorry, but I'm getting REALLY sick of these racist, anti-immigrant threads. The next time anyone wants to bash "illegal aliens" I hope they're not doing it with a mouthful of salad. :mad:

[Hanuman]

8. You are wrong about me...

I am not racist and I am not anti-immigration. I can't prove that to you of course, so you'll have to take my word for it.

That said, I am only in favor of legal immigration. I think our borders should be WIDE OPEN to legal immigration so that people can come here safely and easily. But once they cross the border they are documented, given temporary work visas and SS numbers so that they pay tax and receive the benefits that are due them.

I hate this sneaking across, looking the other way, and handing out little perks to people who have violated the law.

Let's change the laws and do this right!

[Le Taz Hot]

11. Fine . . .

you can start by calling them "undocumented workers" which is what they are. Second, what are you dong to see that the law is changed or are you waiting for someone else to do that?

[Hanuman]

13. THIS is what I am doing...

I am talking about it with you and anyone else that will listen. I also vote, and my vote is starting to turn more and more libertarian every day. Republicans don't want this- niether do the Dems. Go figure.

You have to admit that the idea of setting up the law to allow safe and documented immigration and work is THE ONLY RIGHT WAY TO DO THIS.

It is the only immigration doctrine I can support. Doing it in horrible half-measures only makes me mad, and you know I am not alone. So this is what I am doing. I am asking you and everyone else not to support this bill because it is bad law- and let's all talk about the right way to approach immigration. If someone wants to write a letter, go for it.

As far a "undocumented workers," fine, I'll call them that when you tell me I'm right about supporting a broad based doctrine and NOT supporting a shitty law like drivers licenses for ille... er, undocumented workers.

'Kay?

[SoCalDem]

15. The (mostly repube) EMPLOYERS want dirt cheap labor

and LURE these unsuspecting people to the US..

By your logic, a molestor who lures children into his car with candy or a request to help him look for his lost puppy, is NOT the one responsible for what happens later:eyes:


IT'S ALL CONNECTED...

One cannot "blame" the people who are trying to have a better life than the one they had in Mexico, if they are promised a job.. Who is paying them?? A BOSS...A COMPANY..

The manufacturers who pay these workers a few bucks an hour and then charge YOU and ME $50.00 for an article of clothing that it cost them $4.00 to produce, are putting the "extra" money, where???? IN THEIR POCKETS...

You can bet your last dollar that they are NOT paying THEIR fair share of taxes on their ill-gotten windfalls from the labors of the undocumented..


If you went to a grocery store and saw that oranges were now $4.00 a pound, or lettuce was $5.00 a head, who would you blame??

We have cheap food here BECASUSE the growers use water they are not entitled to on the cheap (they get sweetheart deals...ask the people near Mono Lake)AND they use undocumented(CHEAP) labor

We cannot have it both ways... We cannot complain about "those" people, and all the while ENJOY the fruits of their labors...

[Hanuman]

21. Well, if you noticed...

I am not complaining about "those people" I am complaining about Loser Davis signing a crap-ass bill- more than likely to merely curry favor in the recall. And you're buying into the BS.

My point is a fine one. I am in favor of immigration- but it has to be done legally, from the start. I find this bill an insult to the millions who immigrated legally and to the people of California who believe that a license from their state government actually means something. Driving was once considered a privelage- a privelage for citizens and residents above the age of 16 who passed a competancy test, and by default, a literacy test, as a portion of the test was written. It was used to show your identity as a citizen and resident of the state.

Now, I guess it just means you can drive.

[SoCalDem]

24. Drivers licenses were never intended as citizenship documents

Lots of non citizens have had driver's licenses.. and being 16 and taking drivers ed, does not mean you know how to drive :evilgrin:

Every bill a governor/president signs will offend half the people.. They do it all the time.. There are few bills that will please everyone..

The bill he's gonna(maybe) sign will not guarantee much regarding the hispanic vote.. The ones who vote will still vote and the ones who don't, won't..

At this point ANYTHIING that Davis does is going to be slammed in the media.. He's the fall guy..:(.. I never really had any opinion of him one way or the other..BUT... he's a veteran,he was elected, he's done what he could with a stinko-economy, we got ENRONED, the feds did NOTHING to alleviate our "energy problem" except CAUSE it and then BLAME it on Davis..

As long as Mexico is south of us, we are going to have people coming here illegally..

I guess they would say the WE came to Mexico illegally all those years ago, and refused to leave :shrug:

[Hanuman]

26. Legal residents have had licenses...

that's true. Not illegal aliens. This is unprecedented as far as I know.

And while you're right that licenses are technically not a valid form of "citizenship" ID. it has been the defacto personal ID for years and years. But that was not my concern. Hell, I don't care id immigrants drive or not or have valid ID- I just want this all done by the book and make it the same for everyone.

There are no rules anymore. You don't like the rules, make up new ones! Who cares whether it's fair or right or even SANE. If it feels good, do it!

And what about Davis makes you think he's not doing this to solidify and activate a core voting block? He refused to sign it twice before he was behind the 8-ball. DUers are notorious for 2nd guessing the motives of repukes- but not Davis?

[Hanuman]

6. That may be completely true,

DF, I'll be the first to plead ignorance on the fine points of some issues. But I'd also bet that alot of illegals are paid under the table.

But some illegals paying income tax does not put a smiley face on the outright bull crap of giving illegal aliens a legal drivers license.

Colorado and possibly other states are threatening to disallow the CA license as valid ID should this bill be signed. Great, so now us CA citizens will need to carry a passport when we travel state to state to prove who we are.

Dumb.

[Undemcided]

29. Give me a break.

I came to the US legally to work. I have no problem with legal immigration at all but scofflaws who demand special treatment don’t impress me at all. America should not be in the business of importing poverty, it should be exporting all the things that make America great.

The difference is, they don't get a refund, and they seldom know how to manipulate their W4 forms, so nearly all actually pay MORE income taxes than they owe.

If someone broke into your house and then chipped in on the electricity bill would you let them stay as well?

[David__77]

7. These people give much much more than they get...

Undocumented workers are a part of this state. They are not some sort of parasite, like the Enron thieves that ripped us all off. CA does not make immigration law--that's the federal government's job. Davis should have signed last year's bill--I and many others were disappointed that he did not.

That woman that has lived here for 16 maybe would be speaking English and enjoy a higher standard of living if we gave amnesty to these workers and stopped the immigrant-bashing...

[Hanuman]

10. No one is addressing the issue of the Licenses...

But you are all tripping over yourselves to call me a racist, anti-immigrant or to point out the benefits of having a large illegal population living here.

Those are all side notes- What about the licenses? Are you certain these are a good idea?

[DuctapeFatwa]

12. OK here is the reasoning on drivers licenses

As long as the act of crossing the border to feed your family is criminalized, people who do so, the vast majority of whom have no intention of doing any actual crime, are completely unaccountable.

They are also predominantly young men between the ages of 17 and 25 away from home for the first time.

Without a drivers license, if they cause property damage or personal injury with a motor vehicle, there is no accountability, no recourse.

Add to this the fact that in some Latin American countries, whoever is found at the scene of an accident is the guilty party, and you can start to see why many people want to issue drivers licenses to people who have no other documents purchased from the government.

An alternative plan that is being talked about and possibly implemented in some states, is not issuing anything, just recognizing Mexican driver's licenses, some people also want a driving test.

The idea is to have some kind of accountability where now there is none.

Obviously, regardless of how you or anyone else feels about the indigenous people of America moving freely about their continent, it is something that is going to happen.

You will feel a lot better about it once your grandchildren teach you a little Spanish.

[sybylla]

18. Accountability?

That is your reasoning? Please, what kind of accountability will having a legal DL give them. They will just hit and run to Mexico instead. As if they will, by and large, magically have any money for insurance if we magically provide them with legal DLs anyway.

Additionally, it's equally racist to assume all Mexican's crossing the border are indigenous. Mexico has, like the US, a large population of immigrants as well.

Secondly, this kind of law is exactly why great chunks of our population has a problem with immigration (note: I said immigration, not immigrants): TWO SETS OF RULES. One for those who live here legally and one set for everyone else.

Thirdly, stop painting everyone who has even the most minor issue with our immigration policies a racist. It is a blanket statement that makes you look far more inept than I know that you are. Speak to the issue, stop attacking the messenger. In fact, seems to me the forum rules on DU specifically state that personal attacks are verboten.

Lastly, I have worked with immigrants, helping them to understand INS rules so they can follow the law and come here legally. So don't accuse me of not understand their plight. "Documented" immigrants have all the protections the rest of us have at the workplace and in the law. I would think that you would want that for everyone.

[DuctapeFatwa]

20. Good points. Send all the white people back to Europe

It is not fair that so many should have to suffer for Monteczuma's abominable immigration policies.

While some will say that this is inhumane, as they would have to learn to drive on the opposite side of the road, thus putting millions of innocent Europeans in peril, Europeans have a long tradition of road peril, and will probably not notice anything unusual.

[sybylla]

27. WTF?

You're going off the deep end, DTF. Somewhere along the line you have to learn that emotion and reason are not the same thing. Both are important in decision-making, but when decisions are made based solely upon one or the other, you get into trouble. That is why they call it "thinking".

[Hanuman]

19. I don't know...

Do you honestly think this is going to compel any undocumented worker (that's for you Le Taz) to stop and sort it out at the scene of an accident- if he/she would not have before wehn he did not posses the license?

There's no evidentiary support of this and it frankly seems like a stretch to me.

Here's MY problem with this bill. First of all, I LOVE Latin American immigrants. I have literally dozens of friends from Braxil, Mexioc, Venzuela, Argentina, Guatamal and Cuba, to name a few. I have even hired illegal... I mean undocumented workers to do labor at my house, and I really respect their hard-work and their plight. I don't want them to go away. And I don't have to wait for my non-existent grandkids to teach me Spanish, I already speak it well enough to get by. I also speak German, but I digress... This reminds me of the old joke:

"What do you call someone who speaks two languages?"

"Uh... Bi-lingual?"

"Right. What do you call someone who speaks three languages?"

"Tri-lingual, I guess."

"Yep. What do you call someone who speaks only one language?"

"I dunno."

"An American!"

How I have digressed....

My problem with the bill is that it validates the residency of immigrants without asking for anything in return. Not even a comprehensive criminal background check, let alone a SS number. It does not give them the "right" to work. It does not give them residency. It is a bizarre half-measure that has no apparent benefit, if you believe like I do, that there will be no difference in the number of hit and run accidents.

The effort that goes into this bill and others that only tacitly acknowledge undocumented workers, but do not change their overall status, is a fundamentally flawed law.

I do not like poor law- and this is an example of it.

[DuctapeFatwa]

22. We have had problems with immigrants ever since we came to this country

Oh, forgive me, I didn't realize that some of your best friends were Latin Americans.


Seriously, of course a person with a driver's license, Mexican or US, could still leave the scene and disappear. As could you.

Just as most people who were born in the US do not do that, most people from Mexico would not do that either.

Most of the people who come to the US do so to earn money to take care of their families.

You are correct that it would be better not to criminalize that.

However, the reality is that it is considered a crime, and while I have no doubt that you, and others who share your views, would proudly watch your children starve while explaining to them that it was a far, far better thing they do than defy the "laws" of the descendants of European extremists who invaded and stole the land long ago.

Most of the people who come here, hard as it is to imagine, love their children just as much as anyone who was born here, and if they are willing to risk their lives crossing a desert without water and live 15 in a 1 bedroom apartment and eat only beans and tortillas to get them through a 100 hour work week washing dishes in a Chinese restaurant so that their kids can have some beans, too, then I think it is reasonable to assume that they are willing to buy auto insurance and stop and exchange cards with you in case of an accident.

[Hanuman]

23. Am I reading you right?

"I have no doubt that you, and others who share your views, would proudly watch your children starve while explaining to them that it was a far, far better thing they do than defy the "laws" of the descendants of European extremists who invaded and stole the land long ago."

This is sarcasm, right? Of course I would cross a border illegally to work to feed my children. And I bear no malice whatsoever against anyone for doing just that. In fact, I want them to come and try to make a better life. But I want it to be done fairly and legally, and I don't like the idea of giving a legal document to people here illegally.


"Most of the people who come here, hard as it is to imagine, love their children just as much as anyone who was born here, and if they are willing to risk their lives crossing a desert without water and live 15 in a 1 bedroom apartment and eat only beans and tortillas to get them through a 100 hour work week washing dishes in a Chinese restaurant so that their kids can have some beans, too, then I think it is reasonable to assume that they are willing to buy auto insurance and stop and exchange cards with you in case of an accident."

Your assumption is based on nothing more than your good nature and the hope that others are as responsible as you. Sadly, I believe that you and I are probably in the top 5% of responsible people on this planet.

[sybylla]

25. They're going to feed their kids beans and tortillas

while paying their insurance company $1000 a year for car insurance? What planet do you live on where parents would willingly do such a thing. My kids are far more important to me. If I were in the same situation and had $1000 extra bucks laying around I sure as hell wouldn't give it to the ins companies.

I think we are far better off getting these people documented so that they can be covered by labor laws and have access to better paying jobs that will give them a few hours a week with their family in a 1 bedroom apartment housing only 10.

on edit: spelling

[Hanuman]

28. Three cheers for you, Sybylla

Just because I don't support every half-baked crock of crap law that comes out of the hallowed chambers of our democratic law-makers does not mean I want to put up a road block to immigrants.

I will support laws that establish a fair and extremely liberal doctrine of DOCUMENTED immigration. But I will NEVER support this kind of sham law.

Go pound salt, you suckers! Davis is using your ideology to just prop his sorry ass up in the face of the recall!

[Cocoa]

14. sounds like a pragmatic solution

Such a story was posted here, a driver hit a child, attempted to flee but a mob caught him and beat him. He gave that reason, that he was afraid of being deported if he'd stopped.

[radwriter0555]

16. I think it's the right idea. I'm an advocate of open borders, especially

between Mexico and the USA. I have no problem with people coming here easily and getting appropriate papers, paying taxes and so on. I think we need to completely change our border policy.

It keeps us safer from hit and runs because with proper licensing, insuring and documentation, responsible adherence to rules is gained.

People leave the scene of an accident when they don't have a license or insurance. So why not let them get a license and insurance? What's the big deal? Because they have a tan they shouldn't get a license? Because they're from another country, they shouldn't drive? Why not? Why have a closed border restricting decent, honest, hardworking people from coming here? What's the point? Are YOUR kids going to go pick lettuce?

Why NOT let them work here? Obviously there are plenty of jobs to go around, or else they wouldn't BE here working. So if they're working, they can pay their share of taxes too! WHY NOT?

Mexicans are Americans too. Why treat them as enemies, instead of neighbors? What's wrong with sharing the wealth here?

[jmm]

17. I don't see anything wrong with this.

Sure it's not a cure to the problem but even a band-aid is better than nothing.