Gringo is an anti-southern bigot

[Gringo]

I've been wondering about this for a while, and now that I've returned from a trip through the south, I'd like to ask the southerners a question.

On a few occasions, I've mentioned my dislike for the South in general, and have been attacked for "generalizing" or "smearing" the region. It's so strange to me that residents of a region so overwhelmingly characterized by racism, religious extremism, poverty and good-old-boy corruption would jump so quickly to its defense.

After my drive through N. Florida Georgia, S. Carolina, N. Carolina, and a wee bit of Tennessee, I can tell you that my impressions from previous trips has been reconfirmed.

The Blue Ridge & Great Smoky Mountains were gorgeous, and Asheville is a wonderful city, but in most of the places I visited, I saw slash pine & loblolly "forests", I saw women with mullets, Jesus programs on 95% of the radio stations, racist "mammy" dolls & confederate flags on sale in every convenience store, as well as the confederate flag being flown on trucks & stores everywhere. I talked to several people, some of whom insisted that I "didn't understand the heritage" represented by that traitorous rag.

I realize that there are many beautiful places and fine, hospitable people throughout the south, but the fact remains, IMO, that the South is for the most part an unbelievably intolerant and racist place. Why are so many Southerners, especially LIBERAL southerners in denial about this, and even defensive about it?

As annoying as Miami is, I'm glad to be back in a city where I don't get flipped off just for having Howard Dean stickers on my car, and where any store with the nerve to sell racist paraphernelia would be picketed or burned to the ground.

ON EDIT: I re-titled this to reflect the overhwelming sentiment I'm hearing. Obviously, there is not racism, ignorance or religious fanaticism in the south. I was mistaken. Sorry.

[ma4t]

1. let me understand

"... and where any store with the nerve to sell racist paraphernelia would be picketed or burned to the ground."

I assume the store would be burned in a tolerant way. :evilgrin:

[stopthegop]

5. yep....

you can just feel the love and enlightenment...

[kentuck]

7. Good point ma4t...

:)

"On a few occasions, I've mentioned my dislike for the South in general, and have been attacked for "generalizing" or "smearing" the region. It's so strange to me that residents of a region so overwhelmingly characterized by racism, religious extremism, poverty and good-old-boy corruption would jump so quickly to its defense."
======================================================================

Nothing to get defensive about....

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. "racism,religious extremism, poverty, and good old boy corruption"

For a moment I thought you were talking about Chicago ward politics.


My bad.

[Terran]

22. or San Francisco, or New York, or L.A.

or any big city.

People are defensive because they're being unjustly generalized about, that's why. I don't care what you saw on your little excursion, racism and ultra-conservatism exist in all parts of the country. Liberal Seattle is not far the redneck side of the Cascades. Give the South and its people a break. They were impaired for centuries by the plague of slavery. As with former slaves themselves, it takes more than a few generations to recover from that. The whole country still needs to recover from that.

Dirk

[bamademo]

2. Why are we so defensive?

Go back and re-read your post. I live in Alabama, but I've traveled a lot all over the country and I've seen mullets and confederate flags in Oregon, New Jersey, Wyoming and Montana.

Psssttt...I hate to burst your bubble but Florida is a Southern State.

[Gringo]

11. No bubbles bursting here

That's why I included N. Florida in my rant. It's every bit as bad as Georgia. And yeah, I've seen those things elsewhere, too, but they are a rarity in many of the more disirable areas of the country - unless you are on the carny circuit.

Seems to me that Southerners are irritated at the south being generalized, even though it's an extremely accurate generalization.

Being originally from Texas, I don't get all in a huff when people pick on Texas - Hell, Texas deserves it as much as any place.

I don't see Californians getting all huffy about being called effete, or "the land of fruits & nuts" .

But tell a southerner that the south is full of bible-thumping ignorant racists, and you never hear the end of it.

[vi5]

3. I'm not from the south but one thing in your post bothered me....

The reference to "women with mullets" in the same league as racists. I'll admit that if I saw a woman with a mullet I might find it amusing but I would feel bad about it afterwards. And never in a million years would I put someone's hair style that I find silly in the same category as those who hate and those who defend hate.

I'm sure there are many regions of the country and definitely the world where my style would be laughed at.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. What's A Woman With A Mullet?

More anti-rural bigotry....

One of the few bigorties left that so called educated folks embrace.

[vi5]

14. A realy bad, outdated hair cut......

I'll admit that I"m a northerner and there is a lot that I don't understand about the south but that holds true about any number of places in the country and in the world. I don't understand people's need to bash the south.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

38. that's a very intolerant statement then.

[mitchum]

162. Who's to say that the original poster is very educated?

Doesn't seem to be so...

[Gringo]

17. I don't find women in mullets amusing at all

Unless the women in question are bulldykes going for a macho look, a woman in a mullet indicates a community without much contact with the outside world, which is why they wouldn't even know that the mullet's brief and questionable heyday ended almost 20 years ago. That same isolation is what keeps all the racism alive in those communities, IMO.

[binaryline]

57. you might want to find another word

to use to describe lesbians going for a "macho look". "bulldyke" is the kind of thing that 'phobes scream out the car window at people like me.

[Gringo]

60. I apologize if that word is offensive.

Is "masculine lesbian" more to your liking? Not very catchy, really. Anyway, seriously, no offense intended. It just occurred to me because of Cameron Diaz's turn as a "masculine lesbian" in Charlie's Angels 2 - saw it last night.

[QC]

202. Hard to imagine great leftists of the past critiquing the hairstyles

of the proles.

Amazing that just the other day we had so many people vehemently denying the existence of elitism on this forum, and then someone vomits up a comment like this one.

Gee, do you think that attitudes like this one might explain why so few rural and working-class people view liberals as their friends?

[Gringo]

216. I'm no "Great Leftist" just a little guy on a librul board.

And I am not at all an elitist. The mullet people are living in a bubble, isolated from what's going on in the cities, and apparently unaware the the mullet died almost 20 years ago. It's not actually about the hideous hairstyle, it's just a humorous way of illustrating the incredible isolation these people exist in. There are many very poor people with great, inexpensive hairstyles. I'm not a politician, anyway. If by some incredibly remote chance, a mullet-headed gal is reading now, I hope she will accept my profuse apologies.

[bicentennial_baby]

4. ...

I live in MA, and I see confederate flags, lawn jockeys, women with mullets, etc, all the time...as far as racism goes, we've got plenty of it up here too...it ain't just the South, not by a long shot.

[markus]

32. One of my favorite news photos of racism and hate in action is from MA

It's from the south boston integration riots in teh 70s. A charming sort of white fellow is trying to impale some young black men with teh shart eagle doohickey on the end of this american flag.

I used to keep it around to remind me that the south isn't the only place with a lot of racism.

While people in Minneapolis/St.Paul would rather not hear about it, the attitudes I found toward natives in outstate Minnesota where cutting edge mid-60s southern.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

49. That was then...this is now

it was ugly but Boston became a much more tolerant place for having gone through the busing crisis.

[markus]

65. It probably is, but much of the country (and not just the south)

remains mired in racism of one sort or another.

Now, if you're excuse me Ms. Rose, I have to attend Test Director training. ;)

[Breezy du Nord]

191. You're right, just spen one minute w/ my grandparents

I love em to death, but man, I hear the n word way to often there.

[Skittles]

6. I'm not in denial about it

and I've lived in Texas since 1976.

[Bake]

9. Oh, a number of reasons

Here are just a few:

1. You drove through the South expecting to see things that offended you, and you weren't disappointed. You see what you want to see. You obviously missed a lot.

2. We have the good manners not to come into your area and announce its obvious inferiority. You, however, lack the same. I'm beginning to think we Southerners should reserve our manners for dealing with other Southerners.

3. There are just as many Klansmen in Indiana, e.g., as there are in Mississippi or Kentucky -- probably MORE. Wasn't it Skokie, ILLINOIS where the Klan made such a big deal out of marching???? What, you mean it wasn't Jackson MS, or Montgomery AL, or Memphis TN? But does anybody regularly trash Indiana or Illinois as bastions of racism, rednecks, or good ol' boys?

4. We Southerners have made a lot of progress in racial matters. As I recall, the last time there were race riots, they weren't in the South, they were in Cincinnati OH (I know, I was there).

There's good and bad things about every region in this country. We don't need you pointing out our flaws while ignoring your own. So why don't you take your superiority complex and shove it up your ass!

Bake

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Martin Luther King

said the racism he encountered in Chicago exceded any racism he found in the South.

[zoidberg]

20. Didn't he also say...

That true racial integration will happen in the South long before it has happened in the north? From my experiences I think that is right.

[wryter2000]

28. LBJ

And wasn't it a Southern president who finally passed some civil rights legislation?

[Dob Bole]

201. Militant Leftist Southerner Here

Sorry if you don't like Jesus, nature, country folk, or British accent. Way to counter percieved right-wing hatred with your left-wing hatred. Good Job.

[Kathy in Cambridge]

15. The Klan marches in CT too

and anti-semitic leafleting and graffiti occur frequently in Jewish neighborhoods and cemetaries in MA. I also see confederate flags in NH frequently.

[Ripley]

18. Excellent points.

Especially the first one. Prejudiced people come from everywhere. Think about how many people believe California is full of crystal-worshipping, PETA members who eat Tofu tacos and do Pilates 4 hours a day. Then you go there and realize, gee this is a very diverse culture. It is not a monoculture.

I guess it's time for more south bashing threads. Hell, why don't we start a north bashing thread? Afterall those dumbasses can't even keep their electricity on. ;-)

[wryter2000]

26. At one point

At one point, the largest group of American Nazis lived in California. Don't know if that's still true.

I live in California and love it, but I'm not going to live in denial thinking racism can't happen here.

BTW, I once saw the N word scratched into a parking kiosk at the University of California at Berkeley. I had to complain to a couple of different departments before it got removed. If it can happen at Bezerkeley, it's happening everywhere.

[Catherine Vincent]

12. I'm in the south and I can't stand southerners either.

Well, at least the conservative ones.:P

[GumboYaYa]

16. Did you also notice a whole lot of

African Americans, many of whom live in poverty or close to it. They are Southerners too and most certainly aren't Republican hate mongers. It is a form of racism to ignore the fact that they are a large segment of the Southerners.

There are also a lot of us white-liberals down there who don't fall into you gross generalization. What bothers us is that people like you attribute the racism and bigotry that does exist to all Southerners. It's no different than ignorant stereotypes of African Americans, gays, poles, or any other group that is unfairly maligned because of the acts of segments of that group.

I have allways thought that unless you truly have an open mind, you will usually look for and find things that confirm your pre-conceived notions.

[Gringo]

27. I saw a lot of African Americans

And talked to a few - and they were by far the nicest people I met. I felt a great deal of sympathy for them, having to live in a place where the dominant culture barely disguises its contempt for them.

And in my post I did say that there are a lot of fine people in the south. Southern liberals are amazing to me because they are really fighting against the stream, and have a great way of expressing themselves.

I'm from Texas, which makes me sort of a southerner. I don't have a "superiority complex". I don't like the south, and I don't much miss Texas either. It has nothing to do with "superiority". I find all the things I mentioned depressing, and sometimes even threatening. I'm annoyed at southern liberals here who stand up for those things and refuse to condemn them. I realize that racism and ignorance exist elsewhere, but at least there is an effort to stop it. The south seems to be so very proud of its ignorance and racism, and that's appalling.

[Ripley]

33. Just because you saw a confederate flag

the south is "very proud of its ignorance and racism?"

You are so insulting I can't believe it!

There are probably more black elected officials as Mayors, city council members and legislators in the south than anywhere else in the US.

No one on DU defends the southern bible-thumping holy rollers who try to turn their flocks against liberals, instead we fight them.

Tell me about the efforts to stop your ignorance?

[Gringo]

47. Not "a" confederate flag

Scores of them, everywhere, and on everything. The nazi flag is banned in germany - I don't know why that traitorous, filthy, unamerican rag is allowed to fly here.

[mantis49]

204. It's a 1st Amendment issue

I live in a small town in west-central IL and there is an idiot who drives around in a 4-wheel drive pick-up with a big confederate flag flying from the back of the cab.

Makes me steam every time I see it.

But nothing we can do about it unless we want to lose more of our rights of free speech than we are losing now under the *shrub.

[Gringo]

218. Of course they have the right to fly it.

And any black person who rightly takes offense at it should not be blamed for kicking the shit out of the person flying it. Unfortunately, my impression is that in the south, any black person who acted in such a way would be dealt with by the justice system with a severity completely out of proportion to the ass-kicking. But now I'm probably proving the fallacy of my original post, since the justice system would probably be just as unfair to the black guy outside of the south...

Am I wrong in thinking that the flying of this flag by so many is indicative of a general deliberate and low-key intimidation of blacks in the region?

[GumboYaYa]

67. Gringo, I don't think you are an anti-Southern bigot.

I believe that you are honestly perplexed at how liberal Southerners can love the South when there are obvious problems that pervade the society. I also believe that you did see abundant racism, because it is there. To deny it is to play ostrich.

Unfortunately, many of our Northern neighbors do just that. St. Louis, where I live now, is much more racist and segregated than New Orleans. In St. Louis, African Americans are shunted off to their own communities, whites live in suburbs safe from the "inner city types" and the private school system thrives while the public schools continue to detriorate.

The South wears its racism on its sleeve, in part because many of the racists have grown up in a tradition where it is okay to them to express those views publicly. It does not mean that it does not exist elsewhere. I'm not sure which is worse, to have the racism out there front and center or to ignore it and act like it doesn't exist. At least with the former it is easier to confront.

Liberals in the South, and we are large in number, have been fighting these battles longer than many others. We are also frequently subjected to greater public derision for our battles, in part again because it is okay to express racist views in the South. That may explain our sensitivity to being lumped in with ignorant bigots.

As for why we love the South, have you ever eaten pecan pie, jambalaya, southern fried chicken, bisquits and red-eye gravy, or any of the other great southern cuisine. Have you ever sat in blues club the size of a closet and heard a blues legend with two teeth play smokin hot guitar? Have you ever had a family member get sick and then have your neighbors give you so much food that you are inviting people over for dinner for the next two weeks? There are lots of reasons we love the South.

[Gringo]

71. I like your reply.

"Have you ever sat in blues club the size of a closet and heard a blues legend with two teeth play smokin hot guitar?"

How dare you stereotype blues legends as being toothless? :-)

Your reply is the first one I really "get".

[GumboYaYa]

86. LOL, I apologize

to all three- and one-toothed blues players for my gross generalization. :)

[searchingforlight]

114. This is an argument you can't win as evidenced by the following reply.

Your points are well presented and I agree with them. The South is a very complex quilt and it has as much good history as bad. It has produced many wonderful authors black and white, jazz, rock n roll, country music - in many ways it is the soul of our country and like every soul it struggles with it's dark side.

[HFishbine]

84. Gringo

Your posts are hypocritical beyond comment. You should re-read them and see how many times you contradict yourself.

[ScotTissue]

19. Northerners...why such jackasses?

Seems as fair and as insightful question as the one that started this thread.

WHY THE ARROGANCE, YOU IDIOT YANKEE?

[Gringo]

31. Duh - I'm from Texas.

I'm no yankee, but I love New York.

[ScotTissue]

36. I love NYC too

And i don't like the false stereotype of NYCers as rude.

[Gringo]

40. I have to agree there

I've met nothing but nice New Yorkers. The southerners I met were quite polite, too. In fact many people were very nice to me (I'm white), but then they often stared rudely at my Japanese wife and mixed kids. I wonder how I would have been treated if I was black. I also wonder if ANY of these posters rushing to defend southern racism and religious fanaticism are African-American?

[5thGenDemocrat]

43. Um

Who the FUCK is defending "southern racism and religious fanaticism" here? I'm defending the millions and millions of good southern people of ALL stripes, colors and leanings. Seems to me you're the bigot, my friend.
John
You're going to lose and lose badly here, Gringo. Give it up now.

[carolinayellowdog]

21. Look for a relationship between aggressiveness and defensiveness

You wrote:

>On a few occasions, I've mentioned my dislike for the South in >general, and have been attacked for "generalizing" or "smearing" the >region. It's so strange to me that residents of a region so >overwhelmingly characterized by racism, religious extremism, poverty >and good-old-boy corruption would jump so quickly to its defense.

"Overwhelmingly characterized" describes what you are doing, not the region. People react accordingly. As for poverty, for example, Virginia ranks tenth in median household income, above New York and Pennsylvania. Virginia is the only state that has elected an African American governor, and with a far lower percentage of black voters than several other states. And you wonder why a Virginian would be defensive in the face of your remarks?

snip

>I realize that there are many beautiful places and fine, hospitable >people throughout the south, but the fact remains, IMO, that the >South is for the most part an unbelievably intolerant and racist >place. Why are so many Southerners, especially LIBERAL southerners >in denial about this, and even defensive about it?

Again, "believability" is a subjective not objective measure. I've been appalled by how much more racist people are up North than in the upper South in my observation, but didn't find it unbelievable. And I've been horrified by the extreme intolerance towards Southerners shown repeatedly at DU, but after initial incredulity have come to believe that such intolerance is widespread and blatant elsewhere in the US and I somehow missed out on that fact in my travels.

Bottom line, how defensive people are is directly proportional to how much they are attacked.

CYD

[Kamika]

23. ill tell you why

We live here, you travel around abit and say pretty much the whole south is a giant racist dunghole.

well ******* bud

I think we know a wee bit better then you what were talking about

Oh and sorry but Fla is south too

If i would find northereners horribly arrogant pricks i wouldnt go on and talk about it here, and i sure as heck wouldnt label EVERYONE as one.

There is something called respect.

[Gringo]

35. I've spent a LOT of time in the south

And I grew up all around Texas - I'm not some yankke just traipsing through. Mr Great-Granddad was a big klan supporter, and my Grandma always used the word "nigra". I hated that shit from my own family (even though I loved them) and I don't associate with other members of my family who are wingnut bible-thumping racists. I can't stand them.

[carolinayellowdog]

41. Scapegoating?

Seems like the bitter feelings towards your own family are the fuel for your overwhelming characterization of Southerners. They determine what you do and don't notice about the South.

[TNDemo]

72. Carolinayellowdog, I think you hit the nail on the head.

Humans tend to project their own shortcomings onto others (a la Hitler hating the Jews while being of Jewish descent) and I think this must be at the core of Gringo's knee jerk reaction.

[Gringo]

80. Most white people have racist relatives.

Do you like yours? I don't see my rejection of those relatives as a "shortcoming", and I'm thankful that my parents chose NOT to raise me in small-town north Texas, and did not bring me up that way. I'm grateful for having liberal parents. Also, there is nothing "knee-jerk" about my reaction to offensive southern icons. They are offensive, and a great many thoughtful people think so.

[pullyourheadout]

81. Really? wow

idiot

[Gringo]

88. If you are white, and claim to not have a single racist relative,

You are most likely a liar, or completely ignorant of the definition of the word "racist".

Also, just calling me "idiot" doesn't prove anything.

Hey, doesn't JimRob need your help with some fundraiser or something?

[pullyourheadout]

92. Well, I don't--so I must be a liar.

Do you actually read what you write?

[Gringo]

93. You probably are a liar

or you have a reeeeallly tiny family.

[pullyourheadout]

95. I'm speechless

All I can say is wow. Not only do you grossly generalize an area of the country, but you claim I'm a liar because I say I don't have a racist family member. I don't know what to say. People like you are ruining the Democrat Party though.

[Gringo]

101. You're hardly speechless

you've done nothing but spew profanities. And what is your profanity doing to help the democratic party?

[pullyourheadout]

102. It's doing more than yours

Have fun being irrelevent.

[Gringo]

107. Yeah, Rush likes to give dems advice on his show, too.

His advice is full of crap, too. I may have stared a stupid, crappy thread here, and these good southern democrats may swat me into shape, but they are democrats, and I appreciate their input. Yours, however, you may take elsewhere.

[pullyourheadout]

109. I am a Democrat

and yes your thread is awful.

[TNDemo]

94. I don't have any racist relatives.

I was raised by a couple of generations of a very open minded family in the south, much like the rest of the people in my neighborhood.

[pullyourheadout]

99. You're probably a liar <sarcasm>

[Kamika]

134. well i should know

Im asian american and i have never encountered any racism so there. what a bs thread, you havent even defined what a racist is. Saying everyone has had a racist in their family.

The definition of a racist has changed over the years, if someones uncle in the 1830s owned some black ppl he wasnt nessecerily a racist he was just mainstream at the time

[Julien Sorel]

206. Bullshit.

If you believed you had the right to own another human being because they had a different skin color, religion, were of a different sex, had different color eyes -- whatever -- you were a bigot, a racist, whatever you want to call it. I don't care what era you live in. Certain things are absolutely wrong, and slavery is one of them.

[5thGenDemocrat]

117. carolina

I seem to recall William Faulkner going over much of that same ground.
John
Still, people are people everywhere. We have our racist a-wipes and disaffected types here in Saginaw, too.
Wish we didn't but we do.
Conversely, MLK, for one example, was no racist and Jimmy Carter, for another, is no religious extremist.
Michigan, love it as I do, contains people who burned busses during the integration of the Pontiac schools and men like Charles Coughlin -- about as big an extremist and general shit-stirrer as has been recorded in the annals of American History.
So nobody's perfect. But I bet you'd still like Michigan.

[Gringo]

76. Maybe they are - so what if they are?

I also love my southern dad, who I always saw as a sort of an "Atticus Finch" type. I do NOT hate all southerners. I hate the dominant culture where racist and offensive flags and knickknacks are displayed with no consideration for the feelings of African-Americans.

[niceypoo]

133. Gringo is right.

None of you answer any of his observations. you basically state that "There are lots of Decent southerners 'Between the lines'". Ask any southern black what they see there and their description will match gringos. In my political chatroom EVERY one of the most ferverant, rabbid, racist right wingers is from North or South Carolina....with a few from Alabama and Louisiana. And the only true liberal from the south is appaled by what he sees around him. Rabid talkshow hosts on 90% of the chanels and loonbie control freak greedy good ol' boy preachesr on the rest. The other southern "liberal" in the room is always saying "Nigger" this and "Nigger" that (A word that wasn't allowed in my mothers house. Like he says......WHY DEFEND IT? WHY TRY TO PRETEND IT DOESNT EXIST? Face it Deal with it

[Iris]

135. you really think that 90% of the radio stations

in the South are talk radio?

Newsflash - people down here like music. We also get NPR. We even have indoor plumbing now.

[Kamika]

136. he is NOT right

We arent claiming There are lots of Decent southerners 'Between the lines'". Were claiming there are lots of BAD southerners Between the lines.

JUST AS IN THE NORTH

[niceypoo]

139. he is Very right

Of course there are bigots in the north. They are everywhere but they are IN CONTROL in the south. And they are blatent about it too. How are mixed race couples percieved there? Here nobody blinks an eye about it. Its the social climate. You can duck and deny and pretend it doesnt exist but we all know its right there for all to see. Why defend it?

[Kamika]

140. what are you on about

Nobody blinks an eye about mixed race couples here either

[niceypoo]

147. LOL....right

My brother in law and his black wife went to the south. They were treated like jews at a nazi convention. His wife will never ever go there again. Of course there were a few liberals who were nice to them but most people only scowled in revulsion.

[Kamika]

148. ookay

I cant believe that sorry heh

Ive had white boyfriends and im asian as have many of my other asian friends, several of my white friends have had black or latino bf's,
My best male friend currently has a black gf

Sounds like your brother in law really was at the wrong spot at the wrong time.

[niceypoo]

152. Apparently he was.....

he went through some rural areas.

[Kamika]

166. Im willing to bet

That interracial marriages are more accepted in the south then by upperclass northerners

[TNDemo]

183. Lots of interracial couples at my kids schools.

Never heard a peep about it.

[niceypoo]

209. Denial

Are you in a rural area? Bet not

[QC]

210. So are we talking northern/southern or rural/urban disctinctions here?

You seem to be sliding back and forth between them according to which suits your purpose better.

I don't think you would want to be part of an interracial couple in the part of rural Pennsylvania where I used to live.

[niceypoo]

207. And Pigs can fly

:linuxrules:

[Ripley]

150. Oh wait, I forgot...one anecdote is theory in your world.

Let me see...if it's so fucked up for blacks, why don't they all move up north. Gee maybe it's because they have seen the "establishment" change. Just last year they finally sent one of the Birmingham church bombers to prison. It took a long time to get the old murderer, but they did it.

[Iris]

153. Maybe they remember they weren't treated so well up there, either

And maybe they figure the South is their home and they might as well try to make it better.

And maybe they think the Ku Klux Klan was started in Indiana.

[Bake]

185. And don't forget "Ghosts of Mississippi"

A Southern jury convicted Byron de la Beckwith for the murder of Medgar Evers, 30 years later. And that jury included whites too. In Jackson, Mississippi in the 1990s. But Cincinnati OH won't stop its police department from shooting young black men for no reason.

Bake

[Ripley]

145. You are showing your true colors.

There are more black representatives in government in the south than in the north, I will bet on it.

Mixed race couples are everywhere in my small Alabama town. Get a clue.

[GumboYaYa]

138. I think you need to read my post #67.

We know there is racism, we Southern liberals have been fighting the battle longer and harder than most. That is exactly why we don't like the genralizations taht paint us as racists also.

[niceypoo]

141. He didnt paint you as a racist.

He is painting the southern establishment as largely racist and bigoted. Say it isnt so Joe!

[GumboYaYa]

146. Well, he did in an way he probably didn't realize and you

clearly don't. When you say Southern DUers deny and defend racism, it is calling us racists. We don't deny and defend racism. We deny that we are among the Southerners that are racists and we abhor it as much as good Northern liberals. You guys are just missing the point of our ire. Although I honestly think Gringo does see our point now.

[niceypoo]

151. What Gringo did

Was point out the OBVIOUS BLATENT signs of racism he saw in the south. Why defend them? Why try to pretend it doesnt exist? His other point is that southern liberals get DEFENSIVE when faced by southern racism and I think he hit that one dead on the bullseye given the reaction from the southern liberals in here.......They are reacting EXACTLY as he said they would.

[GumboYaYa]

157. You are not paying attention to what we are saying.

Yes racism excists in the South, just like it does everywhere else. No one here will deny it. Point me to one single posts that says racism does not exist in the South. You can't, because there are none.

We are sick and tired of being called racists ourselves. We aren't and the persistnet believe that we are has run-off many a good DUer in the past.

You need to pay attention to what is actually being said and stop imposing your own preconceived notions on liberal Southerners.

[Breezy du Nord]

192. The North can be just as racist as the South

possibly even more. The North is just better at pretending their not.

[helleborient]

69. If you don't associate

You've willfully abandoned any possible role in helping bring about change. Might as well start setting up the armed camps...

[AverageJoe]

24. I think most folks get defensive when they are attacked

or stereotyped, as you have done in your post. Shame on you.

I'm a life-long Southerner, though I lived in New England for a couple of years. I didn't like the Northeast, but my parents raised me to believe that it would be rude to do something as negative as to heap ridicule on that part of the country and then ask why my ridicule was hurtful.

For my money, the South is the best part of America, our obvious faults notwithstanding. Come visit again without your blinders. If you're willing to truly look, you might see a whole new world.

[Bake]

29. I'd just as soon he NOT come for another visit.

He obviously has no appreciation of Southern hospitality.

Bake

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

25. Maybe it's because we're more sensitive to subject-verb agreement...

"I can tell you that my impressions from previous trips has been reconfirmed."

[Terran]

34. LOL!

Good one!

[PopSixSquish]

98. I Just Spit Water All Over My Monitor

That's happening a lot since I joined DU.

[Gringo]

105. I apologize for my grammatical faux pas

I'm operating on 3 hours sleep - and this is probably the all-time WORST thread I've ever started. Maybe they should lock the damn thing. I'm too sleepy to respond in any coherent way to any of this mess. I'm soooo sorry. I seem to have attracted a freeper who will remain unnamed, too.

[pullyourheadout]

108. Not a Freeper at all, just tired of this leftist attitude.

[Gringo]

111. Did I say you were a freeper?

Also, this is liberal democrat forum. If you don't like "leftists", you probably wouldn't like it here.

[niceypoo]

143. Not a freeper but tired of leftists?

Really........er.....uh.....oooook! a Whopping 18 posts to boot? LOL

[5thGenDemocrat]

30. Seems to me

That, if you don't like the South, you could kindly stay out of it. With an attitude like yours, nobody there is going to miss you much, anyhow.
To paraphrase Paul Simon: "A man (sees) what he wants to (see) and disregards the rest. Falalalalalala."
John
Saginaw, Michigan
Who spent his entire Army time in the southeast, two years in Florida, and several weeks exploring Civil War battlefields. I found the southerners (as a whole) to be gracious, generous and even charming. And there's nothing like a good breakfast at a southern roadside diner (there's one I ate at just south of the Chickamauga battlefield in 1991 that I HIGHLY recommend).

[tnlefty]

50. I grew up in that area!

Didn't realize that anyone on DU knew about Chickamauga as it's such a huge town! I don't get down there much anymore though.

I don't know what has happened, but most of the people that I used to be friends with were liberal/progressive when we were coming of age in the late '70's and early '80's and we were making progress with the older generation, too, but they have all moved over to the dark side. My parents and siblings are a thousand times worse than when I was a kid.

[5thGenDemocrat]

55. Chickamauga's a beautiful place

But then, it's surprising how many Civil War battles occured in beautiful places. Amazing how many took place on Sunday, too.
John
Of course, sometimes I'm not sure the Civil War is over or is ever going to be.

[supernova]

37. LOL! Gringo - you create your own weather

And yeah, even SOUTH FLA is the SOUTH.

[indie]

39. gringo, way to piss them off.

i think they doth protest too loudly.....

[stopthegop]

44. or maybe he came across

as an arrogant jerk...just a possibility

[indie]

you guys are great

so when someone doesn't understand their own perceptions, and they reach out to those with a better feel for the situation, what they end up with is vitriolic personal attacks. way to open up the lines of communication and promote a better understanding of the southern culture. look at some of the posts here:

yankee
arrogant jerk
arrogant prick
idiot
superiority complex
racist
bigot

i'd say he struck a nerve.

[ulysses]

91. snort

and they reach out to those with a better feel for the situation

I missed the part where Gringo described his search for enlightenment, unless you mean the part where he drove around and deigned to look at people before he passed judgment on them.

For every stereotype there is someone who fits it, and it's pretty easy to find them if that's what you want to do. If I wanted, I could provide "evidence" that black people are all drug addicted and violent by driving around a few choice neighborhoods and calling it a representative sample.

[niceypoo]

142. Yankee?

Isnt that the southern term for someone from a state that didnt support slavery in the civil war? Hardly something to shout as an insult on a liberal board let alone be ashamed of!!

[drdigi420]

154. Southerners are yankees too

ask anyone in London.

Anyone in the south that doesn't realize that they are a yankee needs to understand that the war has been over for a long time.

[fishnfla]

160. you left out "stupid asshole"

because he should really have that tattoed on his forehead

[carolinayellowdog]

45. Why are you in favor of liberal Southerners at DU being

taunted and pissed off? Where are you from?

This totally stinks and if any other region were treated this way the DUers from there would protest just as much.

[indie]

48. i'm from the north

new jersey. i read comments about my home state all the time on these boards, many from posters out of the south. it seems as though this is one state that it's o.k. to make fun of. and yet never have i posted back with condescencion or personal attacks. some of the responses to the original post (which might have been overgeneralized, but lacked of malice) we're overly hostile and rude. i do believe it adds weight to the original premise in an ironic way.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

52. If Suggesting A Group Of People Are Corrupt , Racist, and Extreme

is not malicious I'd like to hear what you or the seminal poster have to say nice about the South.

[indie]

62. he didn't suggest those things

he said that the region was characterized as such. i believe that much of the hostility here is due to the fact that historically this characterization was widely held by people from other parts of the country. but again, the response from many on this board was aggressive, and personal. i guess it's o.k to attack someone personally, but not generally.

[Gringo]

64. Did you read the "seminal" post?

I said several nice things there, and elsewhere. I don't hate the south as a whole. With a few exceptions, I would find it an intolerable place to live, though. The dominant culture is just too much.

[Iris]

137. really. It's hard enough being liberal here without this.

And what are we supposed to do? Just move?

[niceypoo]

155. Without this?

THis being what? Someone telling you their observations in the south? The south is largely REPUBLICAN. Comprende? Its their power base. Could you tell us why its so hard being a liberal there? It might clear up a few things.

[Kamika]

172. its hard cuz

The republicans always wins :p

[Iris]

190. "nicey"poo - I'd like to know

who the HELL you think you are? How DARE you "talk" to me that way.

For your information, I spent 3 yrs. teaching in the poorest, blackest county in my state. The blacks didn't trust me and neither did the whites. I did the best I could to try to teach those children under extremely hostile circumstances with very few resources.

As far as the South being the Republican power base - how do you think Cinton won?

[Gringo]

46. Maybe I'm just flame-baiting

Maybe I want to be put in my place - I don't know. All I do know is I FELT honestly freaked out by some of the places I visited. I also enjoyed other places immensely. Maybe I'm wrong about this. It just seems odd to me that Southerners are more angered by the south being characterized as racist, than they are angered by the racism itself.

Also, why are almost ALL the radio stations Jesus programs all the time? Isn't church on Sunday enough? Who is listening to all this Jesus radio? I don't get it.

[carolinayellowdog]

51. Anger about racism

Gringo,

Actually I was addressing Indie about egging you on in that post. You wrote:

>It just seems odd to me that Southerners are more angered by the >south being characterized as racist, than they are angered by the >racism itself.

Liberals are angry about racism wherever we live. But residents of the part of the US that has made the most progress in race relations, and which by some measures has the best race relations, are understandably angry when they are singled out for criticism on this score by people who live in more racist places. From what I understand, Miami is a far worse place to be black than the NC Piedmont.

>Also, why are almost ALL the radio stations Jesus programs all the >time? Isn't church on Sunday enough? Who is listening to all this >Jesus radio? I don't get it.

That reminds me of an anecdote. A friend of mine called in a pledge to the local NPR affiliate (Roanoke Rapids NC) and the lady taking the pledge asked him why he was donating to the station. He said "IT'S NOT RELIGIOUS!" She laughed. After he sent in his donation, she sent a receipt and a thank you note with the annotation "It's not religious!"

CYD

[Gringo]

54. I dunno...

"From what I understand, Miami is a far worse place to be black than the NC Piedmont."

That's a pretty hard thing to quantify. If any African-Americans who've lived in either area would like to address that, it might be informative. I really don't know.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

53. If Only Southerners Are Racist

why is practically every big city segregated by race regardless of region.

[carolinayellowdog]

56. Most segregated metro areas are in the Great Lakes region

Cleveland, Chicago, Milwaukee and Detroit all in the top 5. The 5 least segregated were three in California, Tampa/St. Pete, and Hampton Roads.

[Gringo]

59. I certainly would never say that

My point is more about how overt and obvious the racism is in the south. The covert racism in cities like LA is possibly more insidious - that would be a much better argument to make than to bash me as being a "bigoted yankee".

I don't know how much of that de facto segregation is due to racism on the part of whites, and how much of it is due to the "birds of a feather" phenomenon. If I personally chose to live in an area with fewer blacks and hispanics because there was less noisy music, and it was safer. Would that be racism? Maybe. But quality of life is important, and everybody defines it in a different way. I live in a pretty much ethnically mixed neighborhood. The noise and crime are tolerable. If it was too much worse, I would move.

[tnlefty]

58. Obviously Sunday isn't enough that's why you're hearing it on the radio

during the rest of the week - it's mostly for the hypocrites and believe me they may thump their Bibles, etc., but they're out doing most of the stuff they'll tell you that you'll burn in hell for - just think about W's christianity and you'll understand better!

Not everyone in the south likes the racism and we're still working to try to change attitudes. We're still working to try to get people to understand the need to adequately fund education, etc., and it's a frustrating uphill battle.

But please allow me to mention once again that there has been a huge influx of folks from other states into this area over the past 2 decades and we're not getting the good ones. We're getting the Newt Gingrinch clones so it seems that we have even more work to do. I'm sick of the influx of self-absorbed, greedy, selfish, racist repukes!

[Gringo]

63. Oh that reminds me - THE MASSAGE PARLORS!

Every 10 miles or so in Georgia, I saw a huge billboard for another "Asian Massage Parlor" or "Tokyo Health Spa", or an "Adult Cafe". Even in sinful Miami, I've never seen so much smutty stuff. I guess the pursed-lipped bible-thumpin' wives aren't quite doing the trick...

[helleborient]

66. And what positives did you see?

Just curious if you had blinders on to that...

[Gringo]

70. Please read the original post -

And I'll add to that that most of the people I met were cordial and polite (in contrast to Miami, which is probably the rudest city in America)

[Name removed]

83. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fishnfla]

163. every ten miles huh?

No kidding? Which roads did you take?

[Gringo]

176. F@$% ALL of you people calling me a liar.

I tried to back down and concede on this, but you people keep coming back while I'm not here to defend myself, questioning my education and the veracity of what I saw. You're entitled to agree or disagree with my premise, but calling me a liar for no damn reason is hardly "polite" or "hospitable", so to hell with you all.

It was I-85 from SC to Atlanta, by the way, anyone living in the area can vouch for their existence.

God, this board has gone to hell.

[Heddi]

122. Strange---

I lived 25 of my 27 years on this earth in CHarleston, SC, and have traveled QUITE extensively throughout the south (as well as throughout the country in general), and I really don't know what to say about your quite incorrect statement that "almost ALL the radio stations are Jesus programs"....

In Charleston, there were 2--one on FM, one on AM, and the FM was just music, while the AM was music and taped religious programs.

Even in the tri-state area where N.Carolina, S.Carolina and Tennessee all touch (which is quite remote area), there were maybe FOUR stations total that were religious in nature, and again, all on the AM dial.

You could at least be honest and say that SOME of the stations were religious programming, while the MAJORITY were country music (which is a true statement)---considering that generally country stations outnumber non-country stations 3:1 in the south.

[Ripley]

128. I drive a lot in the south.

And I believe he is referring to the sticks. Here in Alabama, once you are out of range of a city, there are a lot of religious stations on. But I recall some strange "sticks" stations in rural Ohio as well.

[Heddi]

168. Take a drive from Seattle to Spokane, or Idaho

and travel through MILES AND MILES OF NOTHING.

Plenty of religious stations out here too, especially in the sticks.

And in rural KS, where my MIL lives---in the sticks, and plenty of relgious broadcasting.

So perhaps the OP should have said "Whenever I drive ANYWHERE that has small, spread out populations, there are nothing but Jesus stations...", because that would have been far more correct than stating (or implying) that it's only the south that has Religious Stations....or bigots.....or racists....or poverty.....or confederate flags (there were shitloads of Conf. Flags east of Seattle, and esp. in Northern Idaho)

[mitchum]

165. Of course, you are

[LizW]

42. Duh. People don't appreciate bigoted generalizations (n/t)

[helleborient]

61. Is the tension that created the Liberty City riots in Miami

really all over? Do the white, Cuban, and Haitian really stand arm in arm in Miami and sing Kumbayah?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

68. Is The Tension That Created The L A Riots in California

really all over? Do the Korean, African American, Mexican, and Anglo really stand arm and arm in South Central and sing Kumbayah?




LOL@Me

[Gringo]

73. Don't know how to answer that.

Race relations in Miami are complex to the point that it's completely beyond me. But, no, I don't sense that Miami is on the verge of another riot.

[helleborient]

115. My point was if you use the same lens for Miami

I think you would see a lot of racism there as well. Have you asked an African-American Miami resident recently if there is a lot of obvious racism in Miami?

[alcuno]

74. Some days I just want to say, "Cut them loose."

I'm from Florida and now live in Chicago. Everytime I go back, the difference is made clearer to me. There are some good people in the South but overall, the tolerance for people, things, or religions that are different is much smaller in the South.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

78. I Guess You Weren't In Chicago

when Harold Washington was mayor. White Dems hated the thought of an African American mayor so much they voted for a Puke.

Go ahead, cut us off, most folks given the chance to live in the Sun Belt would do it in a minute.

Why is almost all the migration from the north to the south and not the other way around.

You have condemned bigotry and intolerance by being bigoted and intolerant.

That's no mean feat.

[alcuno]

123. Why north to south? Seniors like the weather and taxes.

When Washington was mayor, I was living in Phoenix. At that time, Peoria, Arizona actually had to vote to remove Sun City from the tax rolls so they could pass bond issues to build new schools; the seniors were consistently voting them down.

Florida is no different. You want them? You can have them.

[helleborient]

116. I'm from Illinois

And Chicago has a long history as one of the most segregated cities in the nation.

I dearly love much of Chicago, but whether or not racism is obvious there depends on your geographical location. Daley does a great job to hide it from the tourists, but get out of the Loop and North Side and the beaten tourist track, and it's not hard to find.

[markus]

75. Ah, you shoulda gone to N'wawlins

At least you could get some culture.

I recall a map I saw in the back of Harpers maybe a decade ago. It showed all of the reported lynching locations from sometime late in the 19th century until the mid-20th century.

You could identify every population center in the south by the cluster of lynchings.

Except N'wawlins. In fact, N'wawlins and the entire Acadian region were pretty much out of the "lynching belt". Baton Rouge and Alexandria you could make out, but nothing south or west of there.

Allonz a Zydeco!

[ulysses]

77. ulysses just thinks

that making sweeping generalizations about the people living in large geographic areas is unenlightening and pretty lame. 5thGen has it exactly right. No one is saying that racism doesn't exist in the south, but if you come expecting to see nothing but that...you'll see nothing but that.

:shrug:

[pullyourheadout]

79. Assholes like this are why the Democrat Party is in the MINORITY

This snobbish elitism and gross generalization is utterly appalling. Please don't ever come to the South again, by the way. You are not deserving of anyone's hospitality.

[Gringo]

85. The majority of registered voters are still democrats buddy

And snobbishness and elitism resides in the republican party. I paid good money for whatever "hospitality" I got, and I'll go wherever I like. I detailed my experiences truthfully and laid out my interpretation of them. Sorry you didn't like it. Maybe you like the stars and bars and blackface. I don't. That doesn't make me a snob or an elitist. I wonder what it makes you?

[pullyourheadout]

90. Wow, I like stars and bars and blackface? You're so intelligent.

not


majority of WHAT registered voters? Voters in the South? The South is hard Republican if you haven't noticed. Yes, Miami is a mecca of culture.

[bicentennial_baby]

97. the what?

"democrat party"? ooh, a Rush-ism!!!

[pullyourheadout]

100. Attitudes like his make it hard to say "Democratic"

[gratuitous]

104. Oops, did the mask slip a little there, spanky?

Come back with another handle and try again some other time.

[pullyourheadout]

106. I am a Democrat and am offended by this.

Aren't you?

[Gringo]

110. "We" are all democrats here.

And I am currently getting my ass whupped by many of them for a dumb post concocted after only 3 hours sleep. I apologize to them. Why is it that your motivation seems different? Why are you so quick to bash the democratic party, when it has nothing to do with that?

Hell, if you want to go to politics, I'll say right now that Georgia sucks BIG TIME for what they did to McClelland and Cynthia McKinney, two class acts who deserved much better.

[pullyourheadout]

112. I am a middle of the road Democrat

I am a registered Democrat, I voted for Gore in '00 and will vote for whoever the Dem nominee is in '04. I was born and raised in the South, I have black friends and my family is not racist (I was not raised that way). I am totally put off by your attitude towards my region of the country. I'm telling you why Democrats get slaughtered here. For you to call me a liar really takes the cake.

[Bake]

203. I think you meant Max Cleland, not McClellan

Get it right, intellectual.

McClellan, as I recall, was a Union general.

Bake

[niceypoo]

164. No

People being more offended at someone pointing out southern racism than the actual racism itself is sooo alien to me. But thats what we have here.

[carolinayellowdog]

82. Another excluded middle fallacy

Gee, they're common around here. It's either black or it's white, only two options, e.g.:

It's so strange to me that residents of a region so overwhelmingly characterized by racism, religious extremism, poverty and good-old-boy corruption would jump so quickly to its defense.

or

ON EDIT: I re-titled this to reflect the overhwelming sentiment I'm hearing. Obviously, there is not racism, ignorance or religious fanaticism in the south. I was mistaken. Sorry.

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT. What is being said is that racism, religion extremism, poverty and good-old-boy corruption are not unique to the South, and worse in many places outside the South than many places in the South. Residents of the region that has made undeniable progress on racial issues are being repeatedly dissed by people from places that are no better and sometimes worse. We're not defending the negative aspects of the South and you know it.

Yeah, it's flame-bait and the weekend is too close to rise to the bait any more.

[AlinPA]

87. The only bigot I met in the South recently was my brother-in-law

who moved to VA from PA. We had a nice time in VA, NC and didn't see any more of the sort of thing that Gringo mentioned along the lines of intolerance as we find every day in PA. You can see a lot of that stuff in central PA and some parts of SW PA.(I am a native of PA)

[Gringo]

96. Maybe you should visit GA then

Perhaps its a far cry from PA or VA

[QC]

212. Maybe you should visit Gringo then.

There's a prize bigot for you.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

89. How Come the First Black Governor

hailed from the South?

Virginia, capitol of the Confederacy no less?

and l-i-b-e-r-a-l Californians rejected an African American, Tom Bradley, when he ran for governor?

[CBGLuthier]

103. The thing that you don't seem to realize

Is that this entire damn country is full of racists. Singling out one region because they are more open about it is a tireless, pointless thing.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

124. exactly

many people all over the world just tend to be unitelligent dumbasses. in various parts of the world you can find people being dumbasses in various ways. to say that some people are more 'dumbasser' than others because of where they are located is in it self kind of dumb.

I was born and raised in north carolina, i have been living in ashevill for about 3 years. the funny thing about his place is you have the city which tends to be a little liberal and accepting and then you have the surrounding communities of native people who tend to be more rednecky. sure lots of people love jesus around here, but i believe we also have some christians on DU even. I my self am agnostic and could really give a shit about trying to answer a question that no one ever will in our life time.

but seriously, you need to think about what you are looking for because that is what you will find. "what the the thinker thinks, the prover proves".

personally i could not live in the north or in florida becuase i find people to be rude and inconsiderate, but you know what there are those people here too. maybe i just notice them more when i go up north.

the bottom line is people are dumbasses everywhere they just come in different flavors.

[niceypoo]

167. you just hit the nail on the head

"because they are more open about" its not pointless by a longshot

[Iris]

113. could you give names and locations of these stores?

I live in Atlanta and have pretty much surrounded myself with like-minded people - or at least people who are polite enough not to bring up politics in "mixed" company. I work outside of Atlanta in one of the most redneck areas in this part of the state and I rarely see a confederate flag. I also only see a handful of really offensive bumper stickers. None of the gas stations I go to has any "Mammy" dolls.

I did grow up in southwest GA. There is definately a constant undercurrent of racism but, still, no gas stations or other stores that I'm familiar with sell "Mammy" dolls. There is one store on Hwy. 82 that I will not stop at because during the Clinton years they sold bumper stickers with slogans like "Impeach the President (and her husband, too." They have replicas of old Coke ads for sale. But, honestly, I don't think they would have a bunch of racist merchanise around because most of their customers are black and if they pissed them off, they'd go out of business.

And another thing - how do you know people were angry about your Howard Dean stickers? I have often tried to honk, wave, or give a thumbs up when I see something I like (such as the "Don't Watch Fox News. They Lie" painted on the rear window of a truck with shoe polish), but these gestures could easily be misinterpreted.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

121. I Live In FL and Travel The South Frequently

I don't recall ever seeing a Mammy Doll. If a store did that they would get boycotted and it wouldn't be worth it.

[Iris]

125. yes. From reading these threads, you'd think

that retail trade in the South is made up of mom and pop stores run by mean white men, when in reality, we pretty much have the same chains as everyone else. I'm sure there are some small stores that are run locally and attract a certain element, but I've never had occasion to go into one.

[Gringo]

129. Please, what BS

My premise may be wrong, but this garbage is sold ALL OVER s. Georgia. I saw it in a gas station just past the Georgia/FL border. I also saw it at the "House of Mystery" in Linville NC, among other places, I didn't memorize them all, but I saw them in as many stores as not.

[Iris]

130. what town in GA? What kind of gas station? Was it locally owned?

And why are MY experiences BS when yours were specifically engineered to prove something you've already made up your mind about?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

149. I'm Driving From Orlando To Charleston

I am going to be on the lookout for mammydolls.

[pullyourheadout]

131. I've lived in AR most of my life and have no idea what youre refering to

Maybe you just see what you want to see?

Btw, aren't you supposed to be leaving?

[Gringo]

118. I'm bowing out

I've had very little sleep, and my original post, and my replies have been pretty lousy. If I have a point here, I've made it badly. I suggested to the mods to lock this, but if they don't feel free to continue without me - I need a nap.

Thanks to all you folks who pointed out where I was wrong - thanks. To those who want to bash democrats in general - that's much worse than bashing southerners, so F@#$ OFF.

I'm taking a nap now - good night.

[pullyourheadout]

119. No, I bashed you too.

Don't get confused--and don't let the door hit you.....

[Gringo]

126. I am going to nap now

My anecdotes were real. They are illustrative of a sickness endemic to the south, but also, as has been made clear by other posters, to the rest of the country. A lot of people made good points here as to why I was wrong in my interpretation. You were not one of those people. Good night.

[pullyourheadout]

127. I thought you were leaving?

Shucks I guess not.

[Iris]

132. If racisim is a "sickness endemic" to ther places besides the South,

then why the South bashing? Is it, perhaps, a way to deflect the racisim feel in other parts of the country by pointing out that it's "worse down South"?

[helleborient]

120. My recent trip to Memphis

I went on a day trip to Clarksdale, Mississippi for the blues sites as well as visiting the Smithsonian's exhibit on Rock and Soul History, and the Civil Rights Museum in the motel where MLK, Jr. was shot.

The sheer complexity of race relations in that area is made incredibly obvious by these exhibits. Stax Records (and I would love to see their recently opened museum) featured mixed race bands supporting mostly black lead performers way back in the early 60's. But there is also evident plenty of the history of white performers getting the sales and preferential treatment when recording songs that originally were performed by black musicians. Sun Records (and the late great Sam Phillips) is a lesson in itself of the complication of race relations.

When my wife and I got back...one of the first things we heard from someone here in the north who had visited Memphis was "it was the most obviously racist place I've ever been."

Wow! We missed that but see a lot of obvious racism in northern cities. It is sooo complex, and the original post here seemed to try and make it sooo simple...

[drdigi420]

144. Atlanta is the one exception in the south

But once you venture out into the burbs, the redneck ratio begins to climb dramatically.

Inside the city is pretty liberal, though.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

156. It's Transplanted Yankees Living In Them There Burbs

[Iris]

211. you got it. And why are they there?

Because there are no black people there.

And who do they love? George Bush and Saxby Chambliss.

[mitchum]

170. What about Chapel Hill, Carrboro, New Orleans, Athens, etc..?

[anti_shrub]

158. I love how this thread plays out

Gringo said he ran into a lot of racists and Bible thumpers, and all the southern DU'ers race in to tell him "You're wrong because *I'm* not racist".

Well no shit. Like a racist bible thumper from the south would be reading/posting on DU.

[fishnfla]

169. did you love this part too?

where he hates DU southeners for defending the south?

[niceypoo]

174. He didnt say that.

He pointed out what has been proven to be true. That a lot of southern democrats will get offended when southern racism is pointed out but I have yet to see one of them say anything against the actual racism. Its like they try to sweep it under the rug. Heavy, Heavy denial

[fishnfla]

180. The message is clear

merely by defending our home towns and states,the lives of our neighborhoods, families, friends, all we've ever known or lived, painted in one broad brush. The mere act of defense implies we condone racism, indeed there is no way we can be true American Democrats, because of where we live. Amazing.

[Clete]

159. That's why I head north.

And it's much cooler.

[mkregel]

161. Seriously... I think Southerners are discriminated against

and for some reason its considered acceptable.

I'm not from the South, but I've been there. No different really than any other rural section of the US. I found just as much racism in Idaho, Utah, Oregon, Washington, Montana and rural California.

True, you will see more Confederate Flags btw (which, for history purists, is NOT the Confederate flag, but the Confederate NAVAL flag...but I digress...) and I do not defend that or buy apologetics for it. It is a racist symbol, no matter how much people would beleive it to be different.

But go to a gas station in rural "Blue State" California. Look at the Zippo lighter collection and you will find stars and bars as well as the occasional swastika.

So picking on Southerners merely because they are from there is just as bigoted and narrow-minded as discriminating based on race or religion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

171. Dang nice flame Gringo :-)

...but you have another 300 plus posts to go to top my RAPE thread :evilgrin:

Oh...I love southerners and the south...no comment.

[Gringo]

177. Oh My F-ing God

I am SOOOO sorry for ever starting this stupid thing. I shudder to think what your rape thing was like. The funny thing is, even if you concede, they just keep bashing, being all southern and hospitable and all. CRAP.

[SweetZombieJesus]

173. This is a stupid thread on both sides

Overgeneralizations about certain geographical regions are stupid. At the same time, who gives a fuck what other people think about where you live? I live in Nebraska, and I've met people from NYC who make stupid Green Acres jokes about said fact and ask if we have electricity, and I don't care. They're just morons.

[niceypoo]

175. OK I'M WRONG, Gringo is WRONG

There is no institutional racism in the south. The southern rural areas aren't largely white controlled and full of bible thumping good ol' boys. The south is no more racist than the rest of the US. Confederate flags and the hate they represent arent seen in the south and Southern Liberals dont get offended when overt signs of institutional racism in the south are pointed out. ARE WE ALL HAPPY NOW? (.......Is there anyone here who agrees with this post?)

[SweetZombieJesus]

178. Christ, learn to read

Nowhere did I say "There are NO racists in the South". Of course there are. And there a lot of racists here in Nebraska too, and we're the Midwest. Does that mean people should hate the Midwest and avoid it like the plague? Well yes, but because the Midwest is gray and boring, not beacuse some people in the Midwest are racist.

If you want to talk about racism, fine. But bashing THE ENTIRE SOUTH because there are some racists there is just fucking stupid.

[niceypoo]

182. Pointing out southern racists

isnt bashing "The entire south". Its pointing out the obvious.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

181. I Didn't Know It Was Bull Connor

who stuck a plunger up Abner Louima's ass

I didn't know it was a southern sherrif who put 42 shots in Abdu Diallo.


I didn't know it was a southern lynch mob that beat Rodney King within an inch of his life.

[Northwind]

179. People see wwhat they want to see

If you drive around the south expecting and wanting to see things that back up your view of it, that is what you will see.

[buddhamama]

184. "...racism, religious extremism, poverty and good-old-boy corruption..."

racism exists everywhere. and it really bothers those KKK and Arian types that the blacks refuse to leave. they're looking for 'purer' places to live but alas, no one seems to want them.

religious extremism exists everywhere too.
poverty-please. too much time in Miami perhaps. look around the NorthEast, poverty gallore. feel better now?
good-old-boy-corruption -- are you sure you're not mistaking the South with Wall Street,which resides in NY.

[TacticalPeek]

186. At first, I thought your post was putting us on, or maybe just testing.

But reading all the way through, it's clear your attitude is sincerely held, and you need some explicating. Your's is by no means a lonely view, and it's fallacy arises, as is often the case, from original seeds of miscommunication. In this case, some parts of your consciousness and values are miscommunicating with the other parts.

It begins with what you apparently mean by "the South", as you put it up top, "in general". You are actually objecting to "the South" in particular, and the particularity here is the "racist-ignorant- religiously fanatical-corrupt-white-bigots-in-the" South. To wit:

The indigenous, Southern black folk during the fifties and sixties did more to redeem the promise of our rightly beloved Constitution than any other group at any other time in our history, including our Founding Fathers. (Be glad to argue this point anytime with anybody, but be advised: I will prevail.)

Yet as cardboard props in your argument, they play your assigned role of oppressed, helpless victims. Seeing your Texan origins noted, I can understand how you might think like that from osmotic, unconscious racism. That, too, is not a lonely view, and a good example is the film, "Mississippi Burning". It pretty much depicts good-guy, sexy fibbies in '64 avenging and saving blacks from "the South" you caricature; Christ, what a distortion of history. I saw an absolutely heroic, black activist from the sixties (who knew the depicted victims) leave a premiere of that movie in a burningly livid mood, flashing more hot anger than I imagine he ever did enduring the dark iniquities of the Long Hot Summer. It's cause was the movie's subtly patronizing, condescending attitude toward Southern black folk. Like what I perceive in your posts (no offense intended, just us good dems here).

So, first off, you must clear and refocus your eyes and notice that plenty of heroic as well as plain good black and white people live here, and Indian and chicano, and so forth. True, there's the heathen and philistine mixed up amongst us here. But you cannot point me where that situation does not obtain, now can you? I know you can't. I've lived most of my life in Mississippi, born here, but the worst racism I ever saw personally was in Oakland and in South Boston.

And the implication of the entreaty "Why live there?", is that "good" Southerners ought to move away I suppose. Sadly, there is plenty of that. Not that I begrudge anyone the domicile of their choice, and I love that those who go are like the gift that moves. Do they still have the annual Mississippians in Central Park picnic? There are obvious benefits that flow from the global, cosmopolitan experiences available to us, beyond the Delta. But I do like it when some ex-pats re-pat. One of my sons was born in Berkeley; at the time, leftist friends from Latin America commented that it was cool that he would have Berkeley on his passport, that it would "cut through a lot" of some anti-American bias overseas. Yet I am totally happy that he grew up in here in Mississippi. I cannot express it accurately, but it's like, I think, he grew more soul, more spirit. I have heard it from his Les Paul, and see it in his eyes.

I could go on and on, even get starry if I don't watch out. Why return, why stay? I guess I'd recommend reading the opening and closing pages of Faulkner's "Absalom, Absalom!".

[Gringo]

188. Poetry.

I like your response. Sorry to be patronizing. I shouldn't pretend to speak for people of color anywhere. But I did personally find those artifacts to be distasteful. Not enough to spoil the trip, but they're just nasty.

Wish I knew how to write like you.

[TacticalPeek]

195. Thanks, Gringo.

I dislike the artifacts, also, but even with this there is a nuance available to appreciation, as well as the un-nuanced fact which others previously noted: that these are found all over. Years ago I was driving through the Catskills in beautiful, upstate NY, descending a ridge on switch-backs and near-hairpins, and noticed in the rear-view a big rig closing with me at a not-too-bright speed choice. When he got up on my rear bumper, I discerned that his big, square grill was painted over with the Stars and Bars. As he passed me in his mirrored sunglasses, I thought to myself, in your mode, "Redneck fool.". And I was right of course, as you would be if so thinking, but that guy was probably not even from the South. Redneck fools are where you find them.

Which brings me to the nuance about that damn flag. Yes, it has despicable connotations and bigoted uses today around the world. That is due to a grievous mistake my Southern forebears made when they originally allowed what should have been a hallowed and honored symbol to be irretrievably sullied and stained by "those yahoos", as Shelby Foote puts it, hateful dregs of Southern society. The first time a klucker ever showed up with that flag, honorable Southerners should have been on him like construction workers on a hippie burning Old Glory. Alas, we screwed up on that, and now almost any good it could have is fatally mixed with deserved infamy, and it should never fly in any part above any government. On cigarette lighters and beer coolers, it serves some value as an almost certain "tell" on the owner. Its evil comes from its use.

I say "Alas" and "almost certain" because I think its value could have been, and maybe even still might be redeemed. It seems wrong to completely negate it, to banish it from thought and sight. Things pushed down in the consciousness have a way of bobbing up in undesirable ways.

Back in the sixties (wonder why I keep going back to then?), the leftish Students for a Democratic Society, SDS, tried to organize students in the South without much luck. So a "struggle of regional liberation" concept was born, embodied in the Southern Student Organizing Committee, SSOC, pronounced 'sock'. We later learned we were partially funded by CIA or FBI in some COINTELPRO intrique, but we didn't know then, and just did our part in the struggle as we could.

The SSOC emblem was the Stars and Bars, with a black arm and a white arm reaching from each side and grasping hands in a "power shake" in the center of the flag. It was saying that we accepted our heritage, and would integrate it with the South's progressing future, uniting the people against oppression. Hey, we were young and pretty.

There is plainly much work ahead on that mission, but I think it is important that the South better resolve its many contradictions to make it to a better future. Politically, the bigots you see with their flags and guns down here, were, historically speaking, voting for FDR and Truman. Cure their hatred, and they're dems on the socio/economic/political battleground. Cook our country's politics down and it's mainly about economic warfare, not to go too Marxist on you.

Similarly, I think your thread here is very important, because the issues it raises could impact the '04 election results, and that makes it very, very important to me, and should to us all. I do not want unity in '04: I want strong, powerful unity that sweeps all before it and smites the usurper from his throne. Unity that efficiently integrates our party's own contradictions into a powerful, mongrel, junkyard dog of force for good.

I see here too often the stances "against", the prejudices, the biases, that down through time have usually splintered the opposition to oppressive power. This is too important. This really is life and death on a grand scale, and maybe for a long time. So it's really dangerous to be seeing Yankees, and hicks, and city slickers, and military, and conservatives, and lefties, ad destructum, when all that's really there is people.

We must understand ourselves to defeat our enemy, so it's good that we have this discussion.

[OrdinaryTa]

196. Ya Gotta Stop

Ya gotta stop voting for so many Republicans. There will never be much sympathy for Southerners until the region stops standing for all the ugly things that Republicans stand for.

You can talk about fine hospitality, the flavor of pecan pie, the social progress of minorities in the South, but the relevant issue in this political forum is the way Southerners vote.

Tennessee, for example, could not bring itself to vote for Al Gore. What a disgrace.

[TacticalPeek]

200. All of us in all states need to do better electorally against Repugs...

Agreed. And, "in this political forum", I should note that "progress of minorities" is not limited to "social". Here in Mississippi, with a population about equal to Pittsburgh, we have more black elected officials than any other STATE. ANY state, CA, NY, IL, whatever. That's an almost unimaginable leap from the nascent facism of the days of the voting rights struggle. We Southerners did that with our blood.

As for Al Gore and Tennessee, we can have a separate debate about Gore's campaign strategy and tactics. Just keep in mind that if the votes had been counted in Florida, Gore would be President, and a southern state, FL, would have put him there, so to speak.

But I agree about doing better at electing dems. We actually do pretty good at that down here, considering the strength of the enemy. Most of our shortfalls come in state-wide contests. I predicted when I did a study of voter registration in 1965 for a college project, that it would take a generation to see much statewide success for black candidates. Guess it'll take two. But you're right, we need to do the work to get the job done.

The thing that grates on me a little, is this US/THEM, South/NonSouth baloney. I don't know where you're from, OrdinaryTa, but your tone could evince in me a natural, offensive, defensive response, like, if you're from NY, then how on earth could "superior" NY give us Pataki, Bloomberg and Senator Pothole (sheesh). Or maybe you're from enlightened California, vomiting into history Raygun, B-1 Bob, nutcase Rohrbacher, and by the way, WTF is that ya'll are into now? Some New Thing the rest of us can look forward to, CA being such a trend-setter and all?

See the fruitlessness and counterproductiveness of pointless judgement and accusation?

Better we keep our eyes on the prize and unite!

[OrdinaryTa]

205. Voting Reflects A People's Values

I keep hearing a suggestion to the effect that the South should not be judged by how Southerners vote. Perhaps that's true in some other context, but not in this one. This is a political forum, and Southerners reliably and consistently vote for militarism, government secrecy, anti-environmentalism, union busting, opposition to the separation of Church and State, and hostility to civil liberties.

Look at the mess Bush has put us in after only 2-1/2 years. The fact that the South is still solidly behind Bush is more than dismaying to the rest of us, it also reflects badly on the South. The rest of us can hardly come to any other conclusion than to wonder What is wrong with those people?

It's been suggested here that we should overlook the damage that Southern voters do to the whole country. In fact, we are doing backflips to accommodate the fact that an entire region is chock full of people with political values that are, at the very least, questionable.

The rest of us don't care about pecan pies or cypress trees or the way Southern townsfolk exchange pleasantries on the street. It's how those people vote that matters. Voting reflects those people's values in a much more immediate way than what they eat or how they greet each other. Other Americans are more concerned with political choices and their impact on our shared future.

[helleborient]

220. Or anger with the status quo

The Democratic takeover in Illinois in 2002 had very little to do with personal values. Many will say it was a vote for getting rid of corruption...yada...yada. I see it as basically a vote for not being identified with known corruption...as corruption is rife in Illinois politics. Most of us don't aim to pretend that either party is anywhere close to being free of it.

Thankfully, for us, however, we suddenly do have a powerful pulpit to spread Democratic values and ideals...and a whole lot of incumbents to run for re-election instead of trying to get the incumbents out.

[OrdinaryTa]

194. Why The South Gets No Respect

Because they're always voting for Republicans. And what Republicans! That's a hole that's very hard to dig out of.

[aquaman]

187. The south is full of stereotyped individuals.

You seem to portray most southerners as ignorant and lacking in intelligence. Having been raised in the south, I acknowledge these stereotypes are present, but surely not the majority. However, you do meet the criteria for an "ignorant" southerner. You seem to be just as prejudiced as many of the far right repugs. Grow up.

[Gringo]

189. Yeah, that's the way, keep on kickin' him after he's thrown in the towel.

For the umpteenth time, I've conceded on this damn thing.

[Breezy du Nord]

193. The fact is, folks, that the whole argument is completely stupid

No whole group of people should really be categorized as bigoted or stupid or simple. Only individuals themsleves. (there are exceptions, of course)

To generalize a whole group as racist hicks is totally stupid. Period.

edit: grammar

[Catherine Vincent]

197. I hear where you are coming from Gringo. You meant well.

I live in the south but luckily it's the Houston/Spring area. Not as noticeable. Now I have never lived up north but I do realize there are racists up there too. They're everywhere. It doesn't look like the south will get rid of the stigma of being racists as a whole. I know you may not respond on this thread again but I appreciate you starting it.

What I want to know is why do some whites get nervous when they are around a lot of african americans? We're all anonymous on these boards. So flame away.

[mitchtv]

199. as a gay , I've avoided the south like the Plague

but now that lawrence v texas is over , who Knows? It's sad that the people who lived in these states(mostly southern states) allowed these laws on the books for so long, and I've always resented them. Also what is this"we only vote for southerners" BS? Maybe californians shod insist on a Californian on the Ballot , or at least a west costeno. there are many good reasons to resent the south. Non the least involvment by Texans in the Cal. energy crisis.

[Iris]

208. too, bad.

You'd probably like Atlanta.

And the gay communities in some of the small towns in Ga that I've lived in are warm and inclusive.

[mitchtv]

213. my meskin-murkin in laws went to GA last year

and were rudely treated at times. they will not return. they left the stores without spending. They are not poor either.

[Iris]

214. what's your point?

There are plenty of Mexican-Americans who live here who spend plent of money.


I've been treated rudely before in stores as well and I'm an upper-middle class white woman. Working retail these days sucks and I don't think you can judge an entire group of people based on what someone who works part-time in a store does.


Guess what? We even have Hispanic reps. in the state congress.

[helleborient]

217. For many it's simply because it's unfamiliar

At least that's been my experience...in my first situations when it was obvious I was one of the very few white people in the room, or knew I was one of the very few non-gay people in the room...but it does dissipate when the situation becomes more familiar.

I feel a little uncomfortable if I'm the only adult in a room full of children.

A number of black people get nervous when they are surrounded by almost all white people.

I assume you were wanting to lead to some sort of fear of crime angle...which may be true for a number of people, but I believe there are even more that it's just a case of unfamiliar situation, and nothing to feel guilty about.

[sal]

198. "Gringo" means "foreigner" in Spanish

and I consider it a racial pejorative the way it is commonly used, like cracker, or redneck.

[Gringo]

215. Perjorative or not - I am applying it to myself

If you know me, you know that I am one of very few "anglos" living in almost all-latin central Miami. It is a mixed bag of good and bad living here. I definitely am like a foreigner here, and have been called "Gringo" with both affection, and disdain both here and in my hometown of El Paso, TX. I never minded being called "gringo" because in that environment, I was one. It is not strictly a hateful epithet- you should ask a variety of Spanish-speaking friends.

Calling oneself a "redneck" is different because it is a way of taking pride in one's own ignorance or backwardness. I'm neither proud nor ashamed to be a Gringo, I simply am one, and will continue to be one as long as I choose to live in a predominantly spanish-speaking area.

[helleborient]

219. Not wanting to flame or defend rednecks

I did want to point out, however, that a number of subgroups of the population do attempt to desensitize epithets by taking self ownership of them.

Taking back the ownership of "queer" is an example.

I know that for a number of self-identified "Rednecks" it is not taking pride in ignorance or backwardness, it is taking pride in identification with rural or small town areas and their way of life. Accusing someone of taking pride in ignorance and backwardness does seem a little vicious to me.

[Catherine Vincent]

221. "taking pride in identification with rural or small town areas..."

Correct. I heard former president Bill Clinton call himself a "redneck" at a fundraiser.

[Piltdown13]

222. Oh, another former El Pasoan!

Growing up there does give one an interesting perspective. I perceived EP as much more "Southwest" than "Southern"...got plenty of "tutoring" in the difference from my grandma from Texarkana and various assorted East TX relatives.

I was never called gringa growing up...my nickname was "guera". :-)

[Gringo]

223. Grew up in E. Texas (Beaumont) til I was 10

then moved to El Paso. I still love El Paso, but outsiders always tell me they passed thru and thought it was so ugly or whatever. I never go nuts about that. El Paso really does have some of the friendliest people around, and not all that many 'redneck' types. Most of my family are racist bible-thumping wingers in NE Texas. I don't like them, or that region, though I used to spend every summer there.

[Piltdown13]

224. I'm never surprised at people's reactions

when passing through El Paso. If they stick around long enough to meet people, they always remark on the friendliness (totally true IME); those who just drive through on I-10 mention the ugliness. I can understand how it would be a shock to people -- most folks not from the Southwest have never seen so little green vegetation, and that's a big part of the attractiveness factor of a city, IMO. Fact is, El Paso is not a terribly attractive place...few newer cities would be denuded of trees, grass, etc. And the mountains do grow on you...I still think they're beautiful.

[Isome]

225. Are there any Black people participating in this thread?

Here's an opinion from one who also happens to live in North Florida, and spent 10 years in South Florida (Miami).

Confederate flag sightings are a daily occurrence. It's not only maddening, it stirs up homicidal feelings. When I have to stop at a traffic light and look over and see that damn flag out in front of an abandoned gym, or pull into the Santa Rosa Mall parking lot and see an oversized (extended cab) Dodge Ram with a flag pole mounted in the truck bed, flying the loser rebel flag, I want to join some secret sect of violent Black revolutionaries and prepare to fight to the death. Was that hyperbole just then? Just a teeny bit.

Are there nice people here? Certainly there are, while they're in your face. How do I know that? Because when the subject of any other ethnicity, e.g. Asians, Latins, is broached, they vomit up vile and insulting stereotypes, imitations of a presumed accent, "jokes" and opinions about culture. I'm wise enough (through virtue of my own ethnicity) to know that if they say those things in front of me about another group, they'll say similar things about me in front of a different group.

Though it is 2003, they still ask ignorant ass questions about my hair, my skin color, or make fucked up assumptions about where I live, how I live, or how I came to be "so articulate." In fact, the consensus among my friends is they're intimidated, so they do that thing that too many white people do when speaking to Black people: they attempt to imitate a "Black" southern dialect. Evidently, in their minds that's the only way my kind can understand English (despite my not having a discernable accent, regional or otherwise, having been raised in many different states). Or, it could be they think I'll be able to see they're so very understanding of my kind since they speak the lingo.

Holding your head high, walking with purpose and dressing as though you have somewhere to go, will generate a lot of stares that can make even the most self-assured person a tad nervous. It also makes the townies think you're not a permanent resident of the area, but one of those from the "base" (military).

Even the nice ones display an infuriating paternalism that belies their claim of not being bigoted or prejudiced. They assume to know what music or food I like, and then express genuine surprise when my tastes in either category encompass far more than they thought, or exclude the things they expected. Regardless of their professed open-mindedness, they're just as guilty of prejudging me based solely on my skin color. If discussing a subject like politics, they again are suprised that in some instances I actually know more than they do and I'm not afraid to disagree, or to point out their fallacious thinking/conclusions.

In the workplace:

• After shattering one too many stereotypes, there are always the white people who either begin to shy away from you, or the ones who make it their life's mission to try to show you up in one way or another.
  
  
• If no more than two other Black people in the office (out of the over 200 employees there are 16 of African descent), invariably there are wide-eyed stares and a stream of questions about why we're together, and if there was a meeting called that they should know about. It never occurs to them that white people get together, in greater numbers, for breaks, birthday lunches, after work socializing, etc. on a regular basis and none of us thinks a special meeting, wherein we're the subject matter, has been called. But GAWWWWD forbid the Black people in the office are friendly with each other and get together without inviting them. Oh' goodness, we're segregating ourselves! *fuck that shit*

In Miami:

The atmosphere there is nothing like Central or Northern Florida. Is there racism? You betcha'. However, because of the huge influx of people from the Caribbean, Cuba, and Latin America, it has a far more international feel. The white people are fond of saying, "Will the last American to leave Miami please bring the flag." Many of them fled to Broward county (Ft. Lauderdale, Pembroke Pines, Hollywood) long ago.

When trying to find an apartment there in the early 90s, I was turned down at least three times by people I knew were lulled into a false sense of security by my voice on the phone, only to then be shocked to see my black face when I arrived to view the premises. They suddenly realized they had no vacancies. {Later the Miami Herald carried a report that showed two of those complexes were fined for practicing racial discrimination.)

In my youth (70s & 80s), I also spent time in Illinois and Pennsylvania (my parents were both born there). Was there racism there? You betcha'. According to both of my parental units, during their schools days they went to integrated schools. But as for socializing, there were areas and places (like movie theatres) where a Black person knew, without a doubt, that they were not to frequent. By the time I came along, my cousins who were raised there would advise my siblings & I where we would be welcome and where we would not be welcome.

While attending Myna Thompson Jr. High School (in IL) I had a white boyfriend. On the other hand, I was also given 2nd place in a speech contest because my piece was about an all American subject, as opposed to something about nappy hair and momma in the kitchen cooking greens. This was relayed to me first by my parents, and later by my white teacher, vice principal & principal, because it was obvious to them that I should have won. I'd accepted the prize at the time thinking only that I was only second best.

My parents reaction was to take me out to dinner and explain that this is the way of the world in which we live.

Yeah, there's racism everywhere, I could write a book about the more traumatizing incidents that happened. But, if you wore my skin for a week or two, you'd find arguments like the one in this thread just as useless as I do.

^{Note:
I started this reply over two hours ago, but I had to stop and go to the gym.}

[Gringo]

226. What a great (and long) post.

I know what you mean about Miami, only because there is NOT ONE black person working in my Cuban-owned office of about 50 employees. But the racism is less obvious to the naked eye.

Obviously my experiences can't compare to yours, and any attempt to compare them would be patronizing.

I do want to echo your point about whites using the "black dialect". When I see whites doing this around blacks, I feel so creeped out by it. I'm a semi-dorky white guy who loves star trek. Why should I stop being that because a black guy has entered the room.

If you worked at my office I would totally hang around with you (if you could tolerate my presence), and introduce you to my handful of nice librul co-workers. And I would not start talking like eminem around you.

[Isome]

227. *lol*

...and I would appreciate it more than I could ever say!

[newyawker99]

228. I am locking this thread.

There are other threads with this topic that are active.


NYer99
DU Moderator