I have heard there is a big mistake in Michael Moore’s movie

[Sterling]

A friend who watched a screening in NYC and he said Moore portrayed that Cards famous whisper/pivot and run was the first Bush had heard of the incident at all. Bush admitted he knew before going in the classroom live on CNN on Dec 4th. His situation room chief, a female Navy officer also stated in an interview that they all knew of the first attack BEFORE THEY ENTERED THE SCHOOL. This is very important as it shows Bush was “acting” for the first mins on the tape as though nothing were wrong as well as exposes they decided to do nothing and enter the school for a photo op in the crucial early stages of 9-11.

[zls44]

1. Nononono

It's the OPPOSITE. A lot of people, Letterman mentioned it last night, have been STUNNED when they first saw the film (Ebert) to find out that, as the FILM POINTS OUT, he KNEW and THEN went in to read My Pet Goat.

[walldude]

4. Haven't seen it yet

Have tickets for Wed but I heard the pivot/run/countdown part is after the second plane hit...

[GreenPartyVoter]

5. Welcome to DU :^)

[Warpy]

8. The film footage at the Booker school is stunning

yes, Bush knew of the first crash when he went in for his meaningless photo op with the kiddies. When he's told of the second one, the words "America is under attack" were used. He did nothing. He didn't go find a phone for more info, even though beepers and cell phones in the room were going off like crazy. He sat there.

Either he's incapable of doing anything he isn't told to do, or he's the most heartless piece of shit on the face of the planet. There are no other choices.

I think people who see this footage in Moore's film will know that, too.

[bahrbearian]

21. Deer in head lights?

When he's told of the second one, the words "America is under attack" were used. He did nothing. He didn't go find a phone for more info, even though beepers and cell phones in the room were going off like crazy. He sat there.
My dog would do better than that.

[Sterling]

55. Good then my friend was wrong.

I was hoping Moore gat that part right.

[bloom]

2. Bush, etc. had several versions of when he heard what...

see:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

[theivoryqueen]

3. a lot of people don't know that scenario

and will probably not believe it. it's okay to play the scene by the bushteam log book - Bush still looks like a jackass.

[yorgatron]

7. he knew about the 1st plane

but that could have easily been an isolated incident.the scond plane was no accident,and he should have been in motion IMMEDIATELY after getting word.

[Skittles]

48. I fail to see how a plane hitting the WTC could be an "isolated incident"

I KNEW IT WAS TERRORISM BEFORE THE SECOND PLANE HIT - I mean, come on - did you think a plane could ACCIDENTALLY hit that freaking tower? If *I* knew it, why didn't THEY??? Please remember THEY ALREADY KNEW FOR SOME TIME THAT SEVERAL PLANES HAD BEEN HIJACKED.

[stickdog]

74. What are the chances that a known hijack hits one of the tallest buildings

in the world by accident?

[catzies]

95. Well, you know, remember *'s own words

"Thats one terrible pilot."


;)

[smada]

6. I haven't seen the movie but

I remember my reaction and the reaction of everyone else I know on September 11th.

When the first plane hit the WTC, we all thought it was strange and curious that a plane could hit a NYC skyscraper. No one, no one at all that I know of, even considered it might be terrorism until the second plane hit.

I believe the scenes we've seen of Card whispering to Bush in the classroom was after the second plane hit and the inevitable conclusion was that the first hit was no accident, we were under attack.

Moore is a good filmmaker, but he's a bit deceitful and I think that undermines his credibility unfortunately.

[hlthe2b]

12. I was listening to NPR when the first plane crashed and the broke in...

Needless to say, it took me all of 2 split seconds to get that TV on to find out what the hell was going on....Had I had Mother Theresa, the Pope, and every other important dignitary, and celebrity sitting in my living room, it would not have stopped me from urgently trying to find out what the "F" was going on.. When the second plane hit, which was virtually minutes after my hearing about the first, and upon hearing the horror in both the TV reporters and the NPR announcers' voice (both were on simultaneously), I knew this was a terrorist event. And then my urgent issue is "where else?" "where are my family/friends?" "are they safe? "

TYet, these issues did not occur to him at all? There is no way his behavior is normal, no matter how anyone spins it.

[randr]

91. I was watching CNN that morning

when they interrupted to go to NYC for a breaking story. First shot from the CNN offices looking over a WTC with smoking hole and nothing but speculation.
As the day developed we were shown the first responses from Bush. It was announced that he was told during his class room talk and as the footage, that must have come from the WH press core, showed he sat there like a deer in the lights.
It was definitely reported on that day, with obvious WH approval, that this was the moment * was told of the situation.
If anyone thinks he is not able to stay in communication with other authorities at all times has their head up their ass.
What do you think the guy with the "doomsday briefcase" is all about?

[TrustingDog]

14. Moore is a good filmmaker, but he's a bit deceitful and I think that under

omg,
and how many lives has Moore ripped apart?
'a bit deceitful', get off of it.

bush has been a LOT DECEITFUL. Why is the fucking bar so much higher for the questioners?

[smada]

18. Two wrongs make a right

It's easy to look back in hindsight, with the information we have now, and say what people should have done. It's disingenuous to say you would have acted any different in the heat of the moment. Some people are eager to make political hay out of this, but I think it's exploiting those who died that day.

Sure, we should ask questions, but as Edward R. Murrow once said, "There's a fine line between investigating and persecuting."

[Sparkly]

23. Exploiting those who died?

It's exploiting those who died to question and (gasp) criticize what the Commander in Chief did and didn't do that day?!?

I'm sorry, but to me it IS easy in hindsight, foresight, nearsight or farsight to say that if the president is told the country is under ATTACK, he ought to be finding out what's going on, not sitting there like a stunned monkey. Is that "making political hay?"

[TrustingDog]

25. erm?

You Said: It's disingenuous to say you would have acted any different in the heat of the moment.
==
I didn't throw my hat into the ring to decide on millions of livlihoods and livelydeaths abroad and at home.
and any thinking biped would have 'acted different' than that retarded chimp.

[Spazito]

32. Exploitation??? Now any truths told about 9/11 is exploitation?

If you want an egregious example of exploitation of those who died that day, check out that bush ad showing the flag-covered coffin of a fireman, now THAT"S exploitation!

[Th1onein]

43. EXCUSE ME? Bush is SUPPOSED to be a LEADER!

At least that's what he keeps telling everyone, right? If anyone is exploiting dead people, it's Bush, himself.

The question IS: What would a NORMAL, REASONABLE person do under such circumstances? That's what the COURTS ask, quite rightly, when determining if someone acted correctly. And Bush, without a doubt, on that day, did NOT act normally, OR reasonably. And he sure as HELL didn't act like the leader he holds himself up to be.

[wtmusic]

54. No one knew it was terrorism at that point

Speculation was rampant. Could have even been an accident. Hindsight is 20/20.

Much as I hate *, I'll never be on board this weak, weak attack on what he should have known or done.

[Sparkly]

61. Please think again.

We're talking about the whisper-in-Chimp's-ear in which he learned of the SECOND plane hitting the tower. Let's just make sure that's clear.

It hardly seems to me it's a "weak, weak attack on what he should have known or done" to say that when you're the Commander in Chief and you hear "We're under ATTACK," you need to get up and find out what's going on.

Is there ANYone who considered it mere coincidence, of no consequence, when TWO planes hit the WTC? Nevermind all the memos the Chimp had in advance, not to mention that four planes were hijacked at that point...

As I see it, the *first* hit should have sent him in the direction of command and control, rather than the direction of a book about goats. The *second* hit left no question that he needed to be working, asking questions, getting answers, making decisions....

I cannot fathom how anybody could see it any other way. This is no "weak, weak attack" -- this is just stating the obvious.

[wtmusic]

62. Hindsight is 20/20

Tell me you knew it was terrorism even after the second plane hit, that you would understand the full gravity of the situation without seeing the video we all were seeing on TV--and I'll tell you you're a liar.

Get off it. There's nothing, absolutely nothing he could have done at that point to change events as they occurred. This one of those unfounded attacks that costs the left swing votes, and I'm going to resist it every step of the way.

[Zhade]

72. You've got to be kidding me!

There's nothing, absolutely nothing he could have done at that point to change events as they occurred.

They had warnings that something was going to happen. They had warnings that the something could involve hijackings of commercial airliners. They had warnings that these might be used to crash into buildings - from the previous administration's work against terrorism and the disruption of several plots, where they learned of threats of that nature (Project Bojinka, I believe was the name).

He knew a plane had struck the WTC before - BEFORE - he walked into the school. Then Card told him that "AMERICA IS UNDER ATTACK".

Now, what would you do in his situation - remain seated, doing nothing while people are dying and there might be more hijacked planes in the air, or get the hell out of your seat, calmly end your visit, and get your ass to a command center to ground all air traffic and deal with the defense of the country?

It was obvious to the administration after the second plane hit - thus Card's words, as documented in later mass media stories - that this was terrorism. The attackers had already used two commercial airliners as guided missiles, and there were still a huge number of now-potentially-lethal-flying-bombs in the air - and there was NOTHING he could have done to change the situation?

Are you serious?

The other two planes had not crashed yet! They could have been intercepted, had b*sh done his goddamn job and acted like a leader and not a scared little coward. HUNDREDS MIGHT STILL BE ALIVE.

I cannot fathom how you can believe the comment you made. It makes absolutely no sense. You're letting this criminal, this traitor, off the hook for his (at BEST) incompetence! I'm sure you'd find, on reconsidering, that such a move is not only unwise, but unwarranted.

He has a LOT to answer for in failing to defend this country that day. He could have done more, and he either froze, or chose not to act.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fujiyama]

83. Spare me the bullshit!

I'm not a subscriber to the BS conspiracy theories, but for God's sake, my mom called me to turn on the TV after the first plane hit. Immediately, I ran to the room (wondering what the hell is going on) and sat there glued to the TV. It was obvious something major was wrong.

Even after the first plane had hit, there was a lot of speculation as to why and how a plane could have hit the WTC. After all, they are the two tallest towers in NYC. Also don't forget the towers were bombed years before. It is obvious, whether or not they could have prevented the attack in the first place, they still did nothing immediately after the first plane happened, and continued on with a photo op.

Bush instead seemed undististurbed reading a book to kids. Some leadership.

This is the kind of leadership he plans on running on?

[FlaGranny]

87. You're joking,

right? NOTHING he could have done? What would GHW Bush have done? What could Clinton have done? What would Nixon have done? They would have taken charge. That is the job of the president. Sitting there doing nothing is not taking charge. Even if he could have done nothing to change things, that does NOT excuse NOT EVEN TRYING.

[TNMOM]

94. it was no accident and they knew it!

But even if they thought it was an accident (which we know is a lie), and even if Bush didn't know America was under attack until Card came in and told him so (another lie), why didn't he, like, get up? Even under the best scenarios fashioned by a Bush apologist, Bush looks like an idiot.

His reaction was not normal. Remember, he's the commander in chief. He just heard that "America is under attack," and he did not so much as lift his ass off the chair to find out more. What are our options, is there anything we can do right away, are there other potential targets, what does our intel community know --- these are basic questions any normal human being would pursue IMMEDIATELY.

If you were ultimately in charge of the US armed forces and you just heard that your country has been attacked and you didn't, like, at least, get up OUT OF YOUR chair to press for answers, I'll tell you you're inept and should be thrown out of office.

[BGrier]

98. This Is The Nuttiest Thing I've Read All Day

Sorry. I expect the leader of the free world to be decisive. Myself - I would have excused myself to find out what the hell was going on and I know I'm not qualified to be President.

[Armstead]

63. You forget the context and what they knew beforehand

Since spring they had been frantically racing around because of information that a terrorist ploit was in the works, including hijackings.

A plane crashes into the WTC should have immediate at least raised suspicions.

Even I, who knew nothing of the warnings, immediately was suspicious after the first plane crashed.

A leader would have responded immediately.

[stickdog]

77. It's not a weak attack. It is the strongest attack possible.

At best Bush was criminally negligent.

NYC was burning, we were obviously being attacked by multiple planes, and Bush kept reading about a pet goat for almost 10 minutes -- endangering the lives of every kid at that school by not vacating the premises ASAP.

[stickdog]

76. Wrong. 90% of us who heard the news were immediately consumed by it.

Your attempts to excuse Bush's obvious 9/11 crimes (criminal negligence at best) are quite frankly completely full of shit.

In July 2001, Bush stayed offshore in an armed military ship when he was at the G8 summit to protect him from a suspected terrorist plot to crash a hijacked commercial plane into a building. (Sources: New York Newsday, Sept 19, 2001 and LA Times, Sept. 29, 2001, http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-092701genoa.story )

Given that Bush himself was a suspected target of a "hijacked plane bomb" terrorist attack in July, how can his administration possibly explain the fact that he kept reading about a pet goat in a widely publicized, previously scheduled public appearance only 5 miles from the Sarasota International airport for more than 7 full minutes AFTER it had become obvious to everyone that the US was dealing with a coordinated attack of suicide-bomber-terrorist-hijackers? Didn't it cross anybody's mind in the entire Bush entourage that the grammar school might just be the next target and that they just might want to get Bush and all of the little kids he was reading with out of harm's way? If not, why not? Remember that Bush STAYED at the school until AFTER 9:30 EDT (over 25 minutes after the SECOND plane hit the WTC) and even held his initial "we'll get'em" press conference AT THE SCHOOL!

Is there no one in the entire Bush administration/intelligence/Secret Service with a three digit IQ? The simplest and clearest explanation for this bizarre reaction to the VERY real potential of toddler mass murder is administration foreknowedge at the highest levels. Bravado doesn't fly as an explanation because Bush would be taking little kids with him in any potential attack. Stunned inaction doesn't fly either because the primary mission of the entire Secret Service is to ensure the President's safety. There are only two logical choices here: the Bush administration was either CRIMINAL or else CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT.



Much more:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday...

just one little excerpt ...

The reason given why Bush didn't leave as soon as Card told him the news is: "Without all the facts at hand, George Bush had no intention of upsetting the schoolchildren who had come to read for him." Advisor Karl Rove said, "The President thought for a second or two about getting up and walking out of the room. But the drill was coming to a close and he didn't want to alarm the children." This excuse is patently absurd, given the security risks and importance of Bush being informed and making decisions as Commander in Chief. Nor was the drill coming to a close: one drill had ended and another was about to begin - it was a perfect time to simply say, "Excuse me" and leave the room. Sarasota-Bradenton International Airport is only 3½ miles away; in fact, Booker was chosen as the location for the photo-op partly because of its proximity to the airport. Hijackers could have crashed a plane into Bush's publicized location and his security would have been completely helpless to stop it. Remember, Bush's schedule had been announced on September 7 and two of the 9/11 hijackers came to Sarasota that same day. Furthermore, the Secret Service was aware of the strange request for an interview a few hours earlier and the previous night's report of a person in town who had made violent threats against Bush.

Indeed, a few days after 9/11, Sarasota's main newspaper reported, "Sarasota barely skirted its own disaster. As it turns out, terrorists targeted the president and Air Force One on Tuesday, maybe even while they were on the ground in Sarasota and certainly not long after. The Secret Service learned of the threat just minutes after Bush left Booker Elementary."

Bush Lingers On

Once he was out of the classroom, did Bush immediately leave Booker? No. He stayed in the adjacent room with his staff, calling Vice President Cheney and National Security Advisor Rice, and preparing a speech. Incredibly, even as uncertain information began to surface, suggesting that more planes had been hijacked (eventually 11 planes would be suspected) , Bush was allowed to make his remarks at 9:30 - exactly the time and place stated on his advance schedule. Why hasn't Bush's security staff been criticized for their completely inexplicable decision to stay at the school? And why didn't Bush's concern for the children extend to not making them and the rest of the 200 or so people at the school terrorist targets?

[fujiyama]

82. Persecuting?

Who the hell is being persecuted?

The only ones that have been persucted in any way are the survivors of the families that were killed on 9/11. The administration tried to stop the commision from happening in the first place, and then when that didn't work, tried smearing the families.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[teach1st]

15. Make sure you read the timeline...

The timeline at Cooperative Research is a valuable, well-documented resource:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/essayaninterestingday.html

At approximately 8:48 a.m. on the morning of September 11, 2001, the first pictures of the burning World Trade Center were broadcast on live television. The news anchors, reporters, and viewers had little idea what had happened in lower Manhattan, but there were some people who did know. By that time, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), the North American Aerospace Defense Command (NORAD), the National Military Command Center, the Pentagon, the White House, the Secret Service, and Canada's Strategic Command all knew that three commercial airplanes had been hijacked. They knew that one plane had been flown deliberately into the World Trade Center's North Tower; a second plane was wildly off course and also heading toward Manhattan; and a third plane had abruptly turned around over Ohio and was flying back toward Washington, DC.

So why, at 9:03 a.m. - fifteen minutes after it was clear the United States was under terrorist attack - did President Bush sit down with a classroom of second-graders and begin a 20-minute pre-planned photo op? No one knows the answer to that question. In fact, no one has even asked Bush about it.

[mike1963]

16. deceitful??? Why and how? I recall the day clearly, ABC News showed

the 2nd hit on the S. Tower. There was no doubt in my mind that the first one was intentional even before that. I'm a pilot and I know (and knew obviously then) that the chance of someone driving a 767 could 'accidently' smash into a building was essentially zero. Especially on a CAVU clear day. I knew IMMEDIATELY it was a 'terrorist' thing!
sheesh

[arcos]

22. I think the first reports were of a small aircraft...

not a 767, until after the 2nd hit.

[smada]

34. that's what I remember also

[ljm2002]

45. So what?

"The first reports" may have been of a small aircraft -- but NORAD, the air traffic controllers and our military already knew that 3 or 4 commercial flights had been hijacked. I mean, YOU AND I didn't know that, so it wouldn't be surprising if YOU OR I just assumed that the first impact was a small aircraft flying off course. However, we pay billions of dollars for defense systems for our country, and part of standing military procedure is called the Chain of Command, and the President is at the top of that Chain -- hence his other title, Commander in Chief of the armed forces.

So trying to excuse his professed ignorance as if he's just another guy off the street is pretty damned lame.

He fought for, and (in my opinion) stole the office, but he's either unable or unwilling to do the actual job -- or more likely, he's doing the job all right, just not the job we thought he signed up for.

[Skittles]

51. HELLO

THEY ALREADY KNEW FOUR *BIG* PLANES HAD BEEN HIJACKED.

[Susang]

56. Exactly

Wasn't it just released in the 9/11 commission's report that the order had been given to shoot them down and Rumsfeld (or Cheney, can't remember which, it is Saturday night after all!) thought they had been taken down?

Or am I mistaken?

[starroute]

20. Most of us hadn't been getting briefed on al Qaeda all summer

*We* may have thought the first hit was merely a curiosity. But there's no way the Bush people should have thought that. They'd been getting those briefings, they'd been warned about hijackings, they'd been told that some sort of terrorist attack was almost certainly in the cards.

There are reactions on record from other administration figures that their first thought was that it could be a terrorist attack. So why should Bush and party have been so blase?

We pay presidents good money to worry about potential awfulnesses so the rest of us don't have to. Bush had no excuse for being asleep at the switch.

[merh]

31. He may have been briefed, but he didn't pay attention. I mean, . . .

he was on vacation after all!

[tinanator]

93. there were plenty of newspaper articles about a perceived threat

"not a matter of if, only a matter of when" I believe? Can you believe ANYONE would excuse the jokers playing dumb?

[Spazito]

26. I don't know how you can say he is deceitful when you have not...

seen the documentary.

[smada]

36. Have you been reading the thread?

Well, so have I. The OP described a scene from the movie.

From that description, it seems Moore is distorting the actual events and timeline of what happened that day.

But if you want to impeach my opinion and input by pointing out that I haven't seen the film, which is true, that's your prerogative. But when the scene is laid out on this thread, seeing the movie is actually not that necessary.

[ConsAreLiars]

47. The original poster repeated a lie about the documentary and asked for

comment. The best time for disinformation campaigns is before the facts are commonly known. By accepting the lie about the movie as fact, you are either a victim of the campaign or a participant when you repeat those false claims.

[Sterling]

58. Never mind the "lie" actually helped chimp.

I dont see where this Moore hater is going with all this.

[ConsAreLiars]

67. Did you ask him/her?

That person obviously lied to you about what was in the film, and then tried to claim that Moore had made a claim that he did not make. If you still believe that Moore claimed that monkeyboy was told of the FIRST WTC hit while in the classroom, then I guess you'll have to wait to see the film before you will believe that your "friend" was lying to you. As for motives, ask your "friend" to explain.

[Sterling]

97. I dont think itr was malicious

If he was incorrect. I think it is eqay to get confused when so many lies have been thrown around about that morning.

Personally I produced a Doc with much of what Moore is covering over a year ago. I was the first to do a split screen of his actions verses events in real time.

I am sure my friends motives were not related to hurting Moore. I will give you this friend is not up on his 9-11 info to start with so he would not be in a position to call "bullshit" on a lot of this stuff.

I will see the film myself next weekend. I hope Moore gets all of this stuff right.

[merh]

52. FYI - duuuuuhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - your commander in chief....

Anyway, I was sitting there, and my chief of staff -- well, first of all, when we walked in the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And, you know, I thought it was pilot error. And I was amazed anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And, you know, something was wrong with the plane or, you know.

Anyway, sitting there listening to the briefing, and Andy Card came and said, "America is under attack."

And in the meantime, this teacher was going on about the curriculum, and I was thinking about what it meant for America to be under attack. It was an amazing thought.

But I made up my mind that if America was under attack, we'd get them.


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0201/05/se.02.html
Whoever controls your perception of reality controls you.

[Spazito]

89. Actually, the OP described what someone else described....

upon which you responded with a statement about Moore's integrity and credibility yet you have not seen the movie upon which to base your statement. IMO, the fact that you have not seen the movie negates your critique.

[Timefortruth]

27. Huh?

What is deceitful in 9/11?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. You just killed your own post when you stated that you hadn't...

...seen Moore's movie.

[merh]

35. Hindsight!?!

He was told America was under attack and he sat there for 7 minutes listening to elementary school kids read to him the book "My Pet Goat". This is not monday morning quarterbacking, this is reality.
He is the one who decided to run for the office of president of the U.S.of A. and he is the one who was supposed to react when our nation was under attack. HE DID NOT!

Then he does photo ops pretending to be a take charge president vowing to get those nasty terrorists and then he has the nerve to declare war on terror. Yet, he sat his wimpy ass in that chair and didn't move. Even when he left the school, he hide and his the v.p. was giving the orders. He spent hours preparing his speech to the nation, he was not being presidential, he was preparing his speech.

Hindsight - B.S.!

[merh]

37. You want to talk about deceitful film makers. How about GWBUSH

You remember, he arrived via fighter jet in a flight suit on an aircraft carrier in May of 2003 and announced to the nation and the world that the war in Iraq was over.

Now you want to talk about deceit. Ask the families of the 400 plus soldiers who have died in Iraq since that magical film moment produced by and starring GWBUSH.

Give me a break!
:mad:

[Skittles]

50. I beg to differ

I told my boyfriend it was a terrorist attack; no way does someone accidentally hit those towers.

[ClassWarrior]

57. Let's keep passing on rightwing talking points.

Moore is a bit deceitful?? Why, because Bill O'Lielly said so??

[tkmorris]

73. That's bullshit my friend

When the first plane hit the WTC YOU may not have known it was terrorism but you need to remember that everyone inside the situation from Ait Traffic Controllers on up had known for some time that the plane had been hijacked. That information went straight to the top, do not doubt it. The White House knew there were hijacked planes in the sky before the first plane hit whether you did or not.

He knew. It is inescapable. He fucking knew.

[stickdog]

75. What are the chances that a known hijack hits one of the tallest buildings

in the world accidentally?

The reason most of us thought the first crash was merely strange is that we didn't know that two hijacked planes were heading toward NYC.

They did.

[fujiyama]

81. He's not being deceitful

A lot of people realized that after the first plane hit, something major had happened. While I myself didn't have an idea at first -- I thought maybe it was pilot error, but terrorism also came to mind. However, it was obvious after a minute, that no pilot of any major jet could be so incompetant to fly a plane into one of the two tallest towers in NYC. Immediately I did begin trying to wonder how many died. Of course, for Bush death is meaningless as is life ("We'll all be dead"), so I can't say I'm surprised by his reaction in the least.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

84. The president and everyone at his level would have the duty to consider

that it could be terrorism considering the WTC had been hit before by terrorists. ESPECIALLY after getting those intelligence briefings, including the August 6 one. If Bush didn't immediately suspect terrorism after hearing the WTC was crashed into, knowing what he did, then he is way too dumb and incompetent to be the president.

[sam sarrha]

9. *ush said he saw the first plane go into Tower #1 while waiting to go in..

He said he saw it hit and thought,"That must be one dumb pilot.." because he knew how to fly.. ...and had ZERO compassion for the suffering of others.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. And the next question should be "Where were you exactly and what...

...were you watching when you saw the first plane hit the WTC"?

Remember, he was in his limo on the way to the school...what was FratBoy watching and how was that system set up?

[stickdog]

79. Exactly. None of the rest of us saw footage of the first crash until

much later that day.

What was he watching -- the closed circuit Qaeda Cam?

[The Shadow]

10. I Wondered About That.

I have not heard Michael Moore speak about those scenes directly, as to whether he (M.M.) knew that when Card goes into the classroom, he is telling Bush about the second plane hitting the tower. Perhaps, Moore portrayed it as the public has commonly believed it occurred, IE; that Card was telling him of the first plane hitting the tower.
You are right Sterling, Bush knew of the first plane when he arrived at the school.

I'm of the opinion that Bush and company knew and allowed the attacks to occur for political gain.

[parasim]

11. I have yet to see the movie, but Ebert's review...

indicated otherwise:

Despite these dramatic moments, the most memorable footage for me involved President Bush on Sept. 11. The official story is that Bush was meeting with a group of pre-schoolers when he was informed of the attack on the World Trade Center and quickly left the room. Not quite right, says Moore. Bush learned of the first attack before entering the school, "decided to go ahead with his photo op," and began to read My Pet Goat to the students. Informed of the second attack, he incredibly remained with the students for another seven minutes, reading from the book, until a staff member suggested that he leave. The look on his face as he reads the book, knowing what he knows, is disquieting.


http://www.suntimes.com/output/eb-feature/cst-ftr-cannes18.html


so, perhaps "the official story" cited, has since been revised.

[peekaloo]

13. I remember at the time the lame ass excuse for not canceling

the photo op/appearance was because "he didn't want to frighten the children". Another variation of No Child Left Behind I presume.

He even played the first strike for yucks as in "that must've been one bad pilot" (experience speaking).

I hope this film truly burns the bastard!

[parasim]

69. yeah, that also has always irked me...

the whole "must have been a terrible pilot" quip. I mean, terrorist act or not, just the fact that a plane has crashed into a major skyscraper in NYC and all he can think of to say is "must have been a terrible pilot"? sheesh.

he's worried about "frightening the children", what about teaching the children how the President of the United States should respond when a serious event has taken place? even a Cessna smashing into the WTC you would think would garner something other than an F'n joke!




on edit: why do I always miss the typos when i preview?

[AlCzervik]

17. If Moore did not preface that scene saying Bush Knew before

than he doesnt look as bad, if Moore did say Bush knew before than he looks even worse. I'll wait to see the movie and i don't think he'd leave out a huge detail like that, especially one that even more damaging.

[LittleApple81]

19. Don't fuzz so much about "mistakes". Watch MOORE himself

on his interview with Canadian TV. He reacts to Lauer's shitty
interview on American TV.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1821749

And after you watch it, kick the post so other people watch it too.

[Change has come]

30. Sometimes I wonder if it isn't already too late for our country.

How are we ever going to fight the mainstream media? :kick:

[doni_georgia]

24. I've counted three versions of when * learned about tower 1

all from Bush. First, on 9/11 he said he saw the first tower hit while in his hotel room in Sarasota and thought: "Wow, what a horrible pilot." He gave a lame story about how as a "pilot" all he could think of was what a terrible pilot that was and how it was a terrible accident. Version two (which is the version that he gave the 9/11 Commission) is that right when he arrived at Booker Elementary School Condoleeza Rice called him on the phone and told him that there had been an accident and a twin engine plane had flown into the WTC. Version three is from the principal of Booker Elementary School. She says that when Bush arrived, Card called Bush over and said there was a call that he needed to take. She said he took the call, and then told her "A commercial airliner has flown into the WTC, but we're going to go ahead and do this reading thing anyway." Now, we know from the tapes played for the 9/11 commission that NORAD and the FAA knew that the first flight was hijacked and a second plane was most likely hijacked by the time Bush arrived at Booker Elementary. There is no way you can tell me Rice didn't know that first plane that hit Tower 1 wasn't the hijacked jet. So, this leads credence to the principal's version of the story. We also know from the principal of the school that secret service agents were in an adjacent classroom watching the news coverage while Bush listened to the class and read to the class. They saw Tower 2 hit. At the same time tower 2 was hit, pagers started going off all over the room (according to the principal). Card then waited for a break in the kids' reading and went up to Bush and told him that tower 2 had been hit. The 9/11 commission said that Bush then stayed in the room another 5-7 minutes, but I have watched the video tape made by the school. If I remember correctly, he read the story of about the goat after Card told him about tower 2 being hit (is my memory faulty). I also know that he lingered at the school after he finished in the classroom, and he did not actually leave the school (according to the Washington Times and AP) until around 9:35. That's longer than 5-7 minutes after tower two was hit. The video made by someone in the school is available all over the Internet, so it's not like it is really difficult to figure out the exact time everything occurred at that school that morning.

[Straight Shooter]

33. Excellent summary, doni. Remember the sign "Don't say anything"

Someone in the room held up a sign for bush, "Don't say anything," after Card informed him of America under attack.

Anyone know if this piece of info is in the film or not?

(The sign should have said, "Get your stupid ass out of here.")

[Sparkly]

38. Maybe he thought it was a cue card

and he read it out loud?

[mountainvue]

49. I know.

Why in the hell would they have to hold up a sign saying "Don't say anything"? Is he that f*cking stupid? Apparently.

[merh]

65. yes, one would think he could understand what it means when the

other person has his index finger in front of his closed lips. I mean, I am sure Babs has given that sign before. Cue cards, go figure.

[Kool Kitty]

71. "Is he that fucking stupid?"

Unfortunately, the answer seems to be yes.

[doni_georgia]

86. I really think that his handlers do not let him ever speak on for himself

Let's face it, he butchers the English language even when he's reading a speech. Can you imagine him fashioning an off the cuff remark after Card whispered in his ear - no telling what that idiot would have said.

The main thing I just don't get is why all the speculation about the morning of 9/11 and Bush's activities - it's all on tape. TV news were recording the event, as was a teacher at the school. PLEASE, there is plenty of film and eye witness reports of the day, why even bother asking the shrub what happened, anyone with the Internet can see the whole thing in real time and clock exactly how long he was there after the heads up by Card. Also, shouldn't there be phone logs from the White House for that morning showing who made calls to whom? There should be documentation showing calls made the Bush's cell phone, AF1, Card, and to the elementary school. They're acting like we're in the rotary dial age. Come on, any person can get a log of their cell phone calls from the provider.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

40. Another version from the White House website....

President Meets with Displaced Workers in Town Hall Meeting
December 4, 2001
<http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/12/20011204-17.html[br />
EXCERPT:

"THE PRESIDENT: Thank you, Jordan. Well, Jordan, you're not going to believe what state I was in when I heard about the terrorist attack. I was in Florida. And my Chief of Staff, Andy Card -- actually, I was in a classroom talking about a reading program that works. I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on. And I used to fly, myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident.

But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it. And I was sitting in the classroom, and Andy Card, my Chief of Staff, who is sitting over here, walked in and said, 'A second plane has hit the tower, America is under attack.'"


IMHO, FratBoy makes an obvious distinction between the impacts of the two planes...the first hitting the WTC while he is OUTSIDE THE CLASSROOMS, and he states that while he WAS IN THE CLASSROOM he was told about the impact of the second plane. How would it have been possible for FratBoy to have actually seen the FIRST PLANE impact the WTC?? Try this on for size...the limo is packed with the latest communications gear TO INCLUDE A CLOSED-CIRCUIT TELEVISION SYSTEM. If the NeoCons knew the attacks were coming and knew where they were going to strike, how difficult would it have been to have set up a live feed to the limo's closed-circuit tv?

[Sparkly]

46. That's very tinfoilish, but

it's true that there's no other way he could have seen the first plane hit the tower that morning.

Either he didn't see it and he lied (or got woefully, majorly confused in recounting the events of the morning), or he did see it and MIHOP.

Personally, I think he didn't see it and got his script confused.

[starroute]

68. Korsakoff syndrome?

There have been a few threads on this lately, and on whether Bush might suffer from it. Prolonged alcholism can affect the brain in a way that makes it difficult for the victim to remember recent events. What's particularly interesting is that they will often attempt to cover by making up stories, which they will then believe themselves.

This sounds very much like Bush. And his statement that "the TV was obviously on" -- with the significant word "obviously" -- sounds very much like somebody who is trying to make up a plausible cover story rather than drawing on authentic memories.

[cureautismnow]

53. Might Just Be Dubyaspeak on the First Quote...

I'm the LAST person on earth that would be willing to cut the illegitimate fraud some slack or give him the benefit of the doubt, but that first quote could just be another classic example of Dubya having problems speaking clearly in the English language. For instance, perhaps he meant to say, "I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane {HAD} hit the tower -- the TV was obviously on."

Dubyaspeak.com has a zillion inane unscripted and mangled scripted quotes from this idiot.

Of course, the only way we'll ever find out for sure is if someone in the media asks him to clarify that statement.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting, though... :eyes:

[Sterling]

99. But it does show he knew about the attacks before sitting down

to read about goats. I agree it sounds like classic Bush mispeak but it does show that he was acting when he was smiling before the Card whisper and that he never intended to let the world know he knew before he sat down.

I think the card whisper was scripted as THE moment when he was informed but he blew it when he bumbled the question the kid asked at the town hall meeting LIVE on national TV.

They cant take that one back so they are hoping no one will point out the holes his statement puts in the official story.

[AntiCoup2K4]

64. Weren't the mysterious "Israeli movers" armed with video cameras?

Or should I say the MOSSAD AGENT shitheads who (unlike the fictional Palestinians pulled from old file footage) were actually dancing in the streets as the towers collapsed.

Maybe they provided Junior's live action feed of the first crash.

The only footage anyone else has seen of it was from the French filmmakers who thought they were going to be filming a routine documentary of the FDNY. And while that camera only captured the split second before impact, I still say that did NOT look like a Boeing 757 that hit the first tower.

[Insider]

59. three versions

everyone i know who saw the events can tell all details precisely. how come the president cannot do the same? it is unbelieveable that he cannot.

also, he stayed in that school even longer while they prepared his "speechette". and then he delivered the speechette, IMO another unbelieveable move IF we were "under attack".

and i'll keep asking: whose idea was it to pose the children & teachers around behind him at the podium? another unbelieveable move IF we were "under attack".

he sat there because that's exactly what he was told to do. the rest of the "attack" was not finished.

edit:
if he was soooo concerned about their safety and "calm", why oh why would they force the children to stand around behind him while he made a declaration that america was officially under attack? did that not frighten them? it probably wasn't the childrens' idea, or the teachers' idea, right?

[TahitiNut]

92. Anyone who thought the first crash was an accident, even for a few seconds

... is either an imbecile or in a state of pathological denial. It's inconceivable that any sane person could view that burning tower against a clear, blue sky and regard it as an accident.

I was living on the left coast and was awakened by a good friend's telephone call shortly before 6am PDT. He told me to quickly turn on the TV. From the first instant, I was absolutely certain it was a deliberate crash and had the strong suspicion that the Bush/Cheney cabal was somehow complicit in it. I'd been expecting some kind of 'event' that would plunge the country into a "chickens with heads cut off" barnyard state since October 2000 should Bush/Cheney be somehow elected. I even made the prediction on Usenet in September 2000 that we'd be in a shooting war in the Middle East before the end of 2001 if Bush/Cheney were elected.

While it was shocking, it was not surprising. Despite the shock, there was never any doubt whatsoever that the crash was deliberate. The thought of 'accident' didn't ever cross my mind.

When I first heard the "terrible pilot" characterization from DimSon, I was astounded that he'd claim such a thought. I regarded such a purported impression to be so incredible that he'd be excoriated by the public for making such a ludicrous admission. I still can't believe any rational person could have thought, even for a moment, that such a head-on crash could possibly be accidental. No way; no how. Even more ludicrous is the notion that anyone who'd ever been in the cockpit of an airplane could have such a thought, even for a moment.

[KissMyAsscroft]

39. I think it just shows he is a puppet.

And a lot of his supporters dont care.

I think he was informed to stay seated because there was a contingency plan going into place. They didn't know if there was an attempt on his life.

Look, Im no fan of Bush...but I just think that shows a plan being put into place and he had to sit there while they consulted Cheney...no surprise there....

[Sparkly]

42. But why didn't they pull different strings?

If they had it to do over again, I'm sure they'd have pulled the "hasty, officious exit" strings to make it seem he was going to take charge, get the facts, and bark some orders.

Instead, as you say, the puppetmasters needed time to form a plan and simply letting Chimp out of his seat unrehearsed could have spelled political disaster.

[stopbush]

41. I was online when the first plane hit. My brother in Ohio sent me

an e-mail saiyng "Hey, a small plane just hit the WTC." I turned on my TV...and the cable was out! At that second, I had a very bad feeling.

I started surfing the net looking for info, all the while playing with the TV remote. In a few minutes, the TV came back on. A few minutes later, I watched in horror as the second plane hit. There was no doubt in my mind that it was a terror attack. HOW COULD ONE THINK IT WAS ANYTHING ELSE??!!

I called out to my wife and said, "K, you've got to get up here and see this." As she entered the room and starting watching TV I said, "it's terrorists. They just hit both towers and they're on fire. Stay here. I'm getting the kids out of school NOW (we lived about 50 minutes out of Manhattan at the time. I feared the worst)."

Within 15 minutes of the second plane hitting, I had my kids at home and was calling friends and relatives around the country (a few hours later and the smoke/dust from the WTC was passing by our neighborhood, borne on the prevailing winds).

Bush was busy finishing his photo op...and thinking "wow, it's all going according to plan. How 'bout that?!"

[ConsAreLiars]

44. If you watched to original video as posted by Booker

You would know that your "friend's" allegations are absurd. From the beginning it was presented with captions. When Card came in the caption said "second plane hits WTC."

Remember, this movie is under an enormous attack by the FundiCons and their agents, so expect to hear all sorts of lies. One thing these attacks help do is expose the networks of influence as they exist at the grassroots level. Find out from your "friend" how s/he came to believe this charge, since it could not have come from viewing the film.

[Name removed]

60. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AntiCoup2K4]

66. No problem. They would have just manufactured a "hero" cover story LIE

...like they did with the plane they DID shoot down, in Pennsylvania.

[ljm2002]

70. First of all,

the important question is *not* "what kind of crap would Bush be in" had he acted in some specific way. We can never know what would have happened had he acted, BECAUSE HE DIDN'T.

The important question is, WHY THE HELL NOT? Our Commander in Chief just sat there and did nothing. He did not attempt to apprise himself of the situation, to arm himself with facts, to do what was in his power, to make some tough decisions and possibly give some tough orders. Clearly, that is not what happened that day.

Pffft. Another lame attempt at changing the subject. Just wait until lots more people see him sitting in that classroom, while the minutes tick away...

Criminal dereliction of duty. That's the BEST you can say about it.

[stickdog]

80. That's a red herring. Air defenses supposedly never even intercepted

a single hijack that day.

However, the decision to shoot down was made quickly and the administration freely admits it.

[Bridget Burke]

88. I'm glad the Bush supporters are going nuts trying to discredit Moore

It's quite evident that his film makes their boy look really, really bad.

[Cocoa]

90. I expect Moore's version to be 100% accurate

the only reason these events are so confused is that the official version(s) make absolutely no sense, and the mainstream media made zero effort to sort the facts out.

Moore is going to put the news media to shame with this movie. People will walk out, saying "why didn't anyone report this stuff?"

[candy331]

96. So what if Bush didn't know the country was under attack

the first plane did not hit a mere insignificant bldg it hit the presumed financial center of the US, a high level target by any one's definition and would demand some level of attention by the White house immediately.