separation of church and state

[datasuspect]

one of my favorite discussions with conservatives often has to do with the US constitution and founding documents having origins in protestant christianity.

in part:

"Because experience witnesseth that ecclesiastical establishments, instead of maintaining the purity and efficacy of Religion, have had a contrary operation. During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

this from To the Honorable the General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Virginia, A Memorial and Remonstrance, June 20, 1785

http://teachingamericanhistory.org/library/index.asp?document=144

this is just one example of many founding era documents that show a prevailing sentiment in the founding years of this country AGAINST christianity, per se, being enmeshed with the secular functions of civil government.

i picked the above quoted text from the document because it reads strangely like bakunin.

[Blue Gardener]

1. Excellent document

Thanks for posting.

[Bluebear]

2. Invaluable citation.

Thanks for posting and belated welcome to DU!

[datasuspect]

6. check this one out:

thomas jefferson

Treaty of Peace and Friendship, Signed at Tripoli November 4, 1796

ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion,-as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen,-and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/barbary/bar1796t.htm

[underpants]

3. Article VI of the US Constitution ("The United States")

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[merh]

4. Thanks for the link & welcome to DU!

[progdonkey]

5. my favorite fact about Christianity in the Constitution...

... is that there is not a single mention of Jesus, the Lord, Jehovah, Christianity, the Church, or even of God Himself. I think even Fundies have enough sense to know that, had the Founding Fathers been as devout as they claim, there certainly would be, at the very least, a single mention of God.

I mean, the Preamble itself establishes that the power of the Constitution comes from "We the People," without a single mention of "Almighty God," or anything even remotely close to that.

But, of course, I'm using logic and reasoned argument supported by demonstrable facts; two things foreign to Fundies.

[welshTerrier2]

7. the hypocrisy of the church

the disgraced catholic church in massachusetts has been actively participating in the political process ... no, they have not been raping only young democrats ... on that, they appear to be bi-partisan ... i suppose there's some kind of silver lining there although you would have to look pretty hard to find it ...

the church has been campaigning against candidates who supported the recent "gay marriage" initiatives ... now even the church has a right to speak freely on the great issues of the day ... but as a tax exempt organization, they do not have a right to do so by singling out specific candidates ...

i have listened carefully to the language used by church officials to defend this conduct ... "we are only telling our congregations to do what they think is the right thing" .. the problem with this defense is that it's a lie ... friends of mine who have attended catholic masses have told me they have received flyers to distribute that name specific candidates ...

the catholic church should be stripped of their tax exempt status for this outrageous conduct ...

of course you probably haven't heard them doing too much campaigning against candidates who continue to support the illegal war in Iraq ... and i don't seem to recall any complaints about those who voted to sell out the elderly in this country with the pharmaceutical-industy's medicare bill ... and there has been much dialog from the church on the links of this administration to the corruption scandals surrounding Halliburton ...

pretty selective bunch, aren't they ??? only when real, hardcore catholic discrimination against gays can be demonstrated do they really get energized ... what a bunch of fucking hypocrits ...

on edit:

A Disclaimer:

btw, this post was directed at those who make church policy ... it is in no way intended to criticize catholicism or those who follow the religion ... please don't construe it as such ...

[TreasonousBastard]

8. And this document led directly to...

the Virgina Statute of Religious Freedom, which was authored by Jefferson and passed through the Virgina legislature by the efforts of Madison.

This statute became the basis of the Establishment clause in the
Constitution.

http://www.choice101.com/84-cs.html

The founders of this country, most of them anyway, believed firmly in that wall between the church and state.