I was against the Iraq War, but...

[AmyStrange]

Subject: OT - YAHOO ALERT: Militants Behead South Korean Hostage in Iraq

I get news alerts like this all day long - every day -
and I still cried when I saw the guy on tv beg for his
life in three diff languages and got real angry and
all I have to say to that is South Korea should
immediately announce that for every South Korean
killed "we will send another 2,000 troops. Or,
something like that.

America and all other countries should do the same
thing.

Since we've attracted terrorist to Iraq like flies, we
should take advantage.

my opinion,

dave



--- Yahoo! Alerts - News <[e-mail]>
wrote:
> News alert for "BODY FOUND":
> ==========================================
>
> Militants Behead South Korean Hostage in Iraq
> (Reuters)
> South Koreans reacted with shock and anger Wednesday
> to the beheading of a hostage in Iraq by militants
> who killed him after Seoul refused their demand to
> withdraw its troops and scrap plans to send more.
> For the full story, go to:
>
http://rd.yahoo.com/alerts/email/news/*http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040623/wl_nm/iraq_dc_54
>
>

[nodehopper]

1. more troops? yeah, that will help </sarcasm off>

That poor man wouldn't have been beheaded if we weren't tehre in the first place.

[AmyStrange]

3. I see - let them keep beheading people, it's their fault they are there...

sounds suspiciously like what Rove and Limbaugh and O'Reilly would say about people in poverty. It's their fault,

d

[nodehopper]

9. what a weird argument

It's our government's fault that the people are there, it's the terrorists' fault that the people were beheaded.

Are you familiar with the difference between ontogentic and proximal causes?

More troops will result in more beheadings. Which according to you will should result in more troops, which will result in more beheadings, ad nauseum ad infinatum.

[AmyStrange]

13. do you have any better solutions?

It's easy to criticize...

d

PS I'm willing to listen to reason. I was aginst the Iraq war from before the beginning.

[TheWizardOfMudd]

4. Echo

Echo, echo echo . . . . .

[AmyStrange]

8. reverse echo...

tag you're it,

d

[TheWizardOfMudd]

12. Reverse, reverse, echo

Not! Turned backwards and double tossed! ;)

[AmyStrange]

15. Mudd echo...

reverses back and keeps reversing back while we all dance the night away and get toasted,

d

[TheWizardOfMudd]

31. "Burp"

You win. :)

[AmyStrange]

32. hahahahaha

I would rather I was wrong if you get my drift,

d

[TheWizardOfMudd]

33. Heh heh!

:)

[markses]

2. Hmmm

And it's just my opinion that that is just stupid.

[AmyStrange]

6. and doing nothing isn't stupid?

I do mean to be stupid and I don't agree with myself that we need to send in more troops, but just saying we won't negotiate with terrorist certainly hasn't stopped their activity,

Why can't Karl Rove and his disinformation machine get working on pretending we are sending in more troops.

Obviously he's only good for one thing,

d

[tjwash]

5. WTF? Our country DID invade their country, and the chief...

...idiot in charge DID say "bring it on." GWB fucked this up. Don't blame the Iraqi's because they're pissed. If China, or Russia, had just invaded the United States, hauled GWB off off, and stood back and allowed our country fall into complete depths of chaos, despair and crime, siphoned off all our natural resources and money off, and split it up with their pals, and then decided that their ways would now be OUR ways, I doubt we would miss an opportunity to murder these invading infidels, and we would probably do a hell of a lot worse than what we are seeing on those pictures.

[AmyStrange]

10. you're right....

but that guys begging really unnerved me.

I thought only repubs were cold as ice,

d

[Guaranteed]

39. Iraq is not Al Qaeda's country.

On edit: Nor is it ours.

[jobycom]

7. I wonder whether the children ripped apart by our cluster bombs

by the thousands had time to beg in any language?

Don't give me any red herrings about two rights making a wrong. We are in their lands, killing their families, and we are surprised they fight back with whatever they have? What would we do? If someone conquered America and tried to install their version of the perfect government on us, would we play nice and throw flowers at their feet?

None of our movies suggest that.

[AmyStrange]

11. true...

but his begging mader me think about how I would feel if that were my dad or my uncle or mys sister.

I am against the iraq war, but no way do I revel in the killing in order to feel good about my decision being right.

We atleast need to stop the innocent killing or try and prevent it,

d

[wtmusic]

14. WADR you have a rotten imagination

try to hear screams as a cruise missile explodes and civilians are dismembered, a 50mm gun tears apart a car with a family in it.

This is no more horrible than what we've done. You just saw a nasty picture of it.

[AmyStrange]

18. good point...

but is ignoring it the right answer?

Are we more interested in being right than in compassion?

d

[jobycom]

17. I don't revel in it, either

I detest it. But I'm not going to feel greater sorrow for someone just because I've seen him and his parents, when there are tens of thousands of victims who our media won't humanize.

I'm not excusing anyone or reveling in anything. I'm just blaming Bush for creating this horrible environment where people have to accept death as an easy occurence.

[AmyStrange]

20. I'm blaming Bush also...

and I agree, but thast doesn't mean we can't feel for those caught in this horrible war and can't we vent and can't we get angry also?

d

[nodehopper]

19. yeah, he got a voice

and you saw/heard him and that triggered your compassion.

And I feel for him and his family as well.

But when you think of little kids killed by cluster bombs and rocket launches that will increase proportionally to the increase of the troops, can you not imagine that they are your kid or nephew/niece?

This is not apologism for the terrorist acts. I just have a problem with Americans all of a sudden feeling things viscerally when they see horrible things on CNN but if you googled around you would see pictures of devastation in Iraq that would make you cry.

And you want to send in more troops? How many more civilians on more sides would die as a result of that?

The answer is to withdraw the troops and BEG the UN to send a peace-keeping force and humbly contribute to its effectiveness.

[AmyStrange]

25. I agree...

war sucks and the kids are the real casualties here more than anything.

I'm frustrated and venting and being stupid, but please don't tell,

d

[nodehopper]

28. We all feel like that, I think

I totally understand the desire to vent.

[meow mix]

16. attracted terrorists?

we invaded.. and the populace is responding.
how do you attract iraqi militants to iraq? dont they live there?
sorry i just dont get that part.
i hear chimpy say it all the time but he never gives any details either..

[AmyStrange]

23. no arguement...

I believe most are the Saddam Army using American Revolutionary war tactics.

But I believe that a lot are still terrorist invading the country since we don't have any real control of the border,

d

[fujiyama]

21. I agree

that the pleading my the man was terrible and no person deserves a fate like that.

However, we have to keep in mind that Iraq never should have been the real focal point of the war on terrorism.

This administration has made a catastrophic mistake (one of the worst in this nation's foreign policy) in believing it was.

I really cannot see what good adding more troops will do at this point. More troops, in all likelihood means more bombing, which means more innocent Iraqis, American soldiers, and whomever else being killed.

We need to REALLY give them their country back, have them somehow elect a government within some framework of federalism, and LEAVE. On edit, I would prefer to leave even before any elections of any sort. I actually think it would be right if ALL nations left. Iraq should not be occupied by anyone. Until then, we should expect more beheadings, torture, death, and destruction. THat's why today's news desturbed me, but hardly anymore than I'm used to. After all, I expect nothing from those fanatics. I do however expect more out of my own government.

[still_one]

24. Unfortunately we are screwed

Because the press and Congress advocated this war, the face saving will take years, and countless lifes before the idiots realize what a mistake they made...

There was a very good reason why bush I did NOT go into Iraq!

[AmyStrange]

27. screwed by your own country...

and paying for it.

FUCK
FUCK
FUCK

I hate BUSH

[still_one]

22. See the "Fog of War"

We do not understand who we are dealing with!

We have opened the door to Wahhabism, and have united the people in that region against us.

What the bush administration has done, is now make the region so unstable, Iraq will now become another Afganistan...

Hey, you feel so inclined, why don't you join the Army...

[AmyStrange]

29. I volunteered when I was seventeen...

in 1973 to go to Vietnam. I never went because of Nixon, but I learned a lot about reality there (while in the service) and that's why I'm against that STUPID STUPID STUPID IRAQ WAR!!!

Please don't use that (why don't you go to Iraq) arguement with me,

d


(ADDED: while in the service)

[Steely_Dan]

30. Saw "Fog of War..."

for the first time tonight. Pretty revealing stuff. Everyone should see it.

-P

[DulceDecorum]

26. People with learning disabilities

sometimes do not understand the connection between cause and effect.

When they put their hand directly on the hot plate,
they get burned.
Then because they are angry, the hit the hot plate with the burned hand.
And they get burned again.
Then because they are angry, they hit the hot plate with the burned hand.
And they get burned again.
Then because they are angry, they hit the hot plate with the burned hand.
And they get burned again.
Then because they are angry, they hit the hot plate with the burned hand.
And they get burned again.

"The government should have dropped the troops plan if it really cared about its own people, rather than its relationship with the United States," said Yoon Hyun-sung, 31.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040623/wl_nm/iraq_dc_54

THAT is the voice
of someone who sees no reason to hit the hot plate with his hand.
He is trying to avoid getting burned again.
It is a pity that his government is not as clever.
They are going to get severely burned.

[AmyStrange]

34. Good arguement...

but that doesn't mean we should stop feeling empathy for our brothers and sisters.

In my experience, I've found that anger gets more people involved than indifference.

Example: look at what the anger against George Bush this year with dems as compared to the complacency of the Bush and Gore debacle of 2000 - just my opinion,

d

(EDITED: me to mean)

[uhhuh]

36. I feel for them

I even have a solution. The South Koreans should have given in to their demands.
As was pointed out before in another thread, the governments of countries have an obligation to their citizens first. Iraq (even the "terrorists") are not a threat to South Korea. They would probably be even less likely to attack them if they capitulated.
"But we can't give in to their calls to leave Iraq!! Then they will win!!"
Yep. We can.
If they fundimentally change the way international law is expected to be followed in order to "git 'em", they have won a much greater victory.

Radical fundimentalists(all kinds) will not create change by converting governments to their way of thinking. They will create tensions that worry people and make others uncomfortable, and occasionally kill people in order to develop an erosion in what are acceptable ways to create change.

They don't want to win. They want to be fought. It brings attention to them. It creates blurry lines between what they do, and what we and others might do to stop them.
In a backhanded way, it justifies their struggle, and feeds more zealots on both sides.

I feel for that South Korean man's family.

[iangb]

35. So how come you don't weep for.......

......the 20 or so Iraqi's who've died violent deaths whilst in US custody?

.....and if you do does that alter your opinion of the 'rightness' of the war?

I'm sure that in the eyes of the average Iraqi, there's little to choose between the awfulness of the images from both Abu Ghraib and these 'insurgents'.

This war was (and is) wrong......it is being fought against the wrong people for the wrong reasons......no amount of horror on either side can change that simple fact.

[AmyStrange]

40. Why can't I weep for both?

How does weeping for one stop me from weeping for the other?

I agree that the war was and is wrong, but how does promising to send in 2,000 more troops for every single beheading that happens is a bad thing? What if it stops the beheadings?

d

[ibegurpard]

45. It won't stop the beheadings.

It will simply feed the cycle.

[AmyStrange]

48. How do you know for a fact it won't?

until you try promising to send in 2,000 for each beheading?

They just had a thing on CBS evening news about how the folks of Falujeh are starting to get sick of all the violence and support for Sadr is dropping as a result.

Is this true? I don't know, but since we are handing off Iraq in a month all this is probably just moot, and then again maybe not,

d

[JustinF]

46. More troops = more killings

Not much else to say.

[AmyStrange]

49. Don't agree...

but that doesn't mean you are wrong and with us handing over the sovereignty probably makes all this moot (and then again maybe not),

d

[rman]

37. the solution to violence is more violence?

isn't that RW logic?

[AmyStrange]

41. How is my solution a violent solution?

if the promise alone stops the beheadings, how is that violent?

d

[ibegurpard]

42. It feeds right into what they want.

They want a holy war just like the fundies here do.

[AmyStrange]

47. probably true...

I can't really argue against that but I don't think promising to send in more is going to escalate anything. With the hand off coming up, my rantings are probably moot anyway,

d

[bowens43]

38. Another guy who doesn't understand that you can't

defeat terrorism by dropping bombs on people. And what about the tens of thousands of innocent people who have been murdered by the US? Is it some how worse to kill some one by beheading then it is to kill them by dropping a big fucking bomb on them?

I'm sorry, but the only differences between what these people are doing and what the US military has done is the numbers and the weapons used . The US has murdered many , many more people.

[AmyStrange]

43. I'm not saying we should keep bombing...

but that the co-alition of the willing promises to send in 2,000 more troops in for every beheading. I'm more interested in stopping the beheadings then in reveling in the fact that I was right and this is and always be a VERY BAD WAR that Bush and Co. got us involved with.

I said this more out of frustration and anger than anything else. The handing over of sovereignty probably makes all this a moot point anyway,

d

[Bucky]

44. I know where you're coming from, Mr Amy. There's no right course of action

The "hand over" probably doesn't mootify anything, sadly enough. We'll still have our troops over there, the caretaker government will still depend on our troops to handle the shooting when it turns out they're not up to the challenge, the attacks by terror-using insurgents will continue, and our fingers are still grasped around that country's oil fields.

We're stuck to the tarbaby and peeling ourselves off of it is going to take a long long bloody time.

[AmyStrange]

51. good point...

and I have read some news reports from unreliable sources that Iran is amassing their military at the border waiting for the hand off. This mess isn't going to end anytime soon if the news reports are correct,

d

[Sterling]

50. Wow and I have always thought so highly of you too.

Maybe you are having a bad day. Sllep on it and see if you don't feel better in the morning.

[AmyStrange]

53. The handoff makes this all moot anyway...

and with unreliable news sources saying Iran is amassing military sources along the border waiting for the handoff, none of this is going to end anytime soon,

I don't post for popularity. Since I posted this last night, I've had a night to sleep on it, and most of it was a rant and venting, but no way am I going to pleasure in the death of others because it proves I was right that we shouldn't be in Iraq (atleast not for the reasons Bush and Co lied about).

I just want the beheadings to stop,

d

[maveric]

52. Why was that man beheaded? Because bu$h is running a "crusade"

after he illegally invaded a defenseless country that was no threat to the USA, to steal their oil. Oh, and the aid that bu$h is giving Sharon in his little crusade and slaughter of the Palestinians.
WE HAVE NO FUCKING BUSINESS BEING THERE STEALIN,KILLING, TORTURING AND RAPING THE RESIDENTS OF THAT NATION AND PART OF THE WORLD!

Who are the real terrorists? Take a hard, deep look my friend.

[AmyStrange]

54. Good points....

and with the handoff coming up soon makes my suggestions moot (or maybe not) and most of what I said was in frustration anyway.

d

[Deja Q]

55. It's begun.

* has unleashed the mutha' of all genies.

Religious fanatics kill for religion.

Corporate anti-religious fanatics steal and plunder for the almighty dollar.

American indolence and inaction is another way of saying "We're supportive of the status quo."