Inserting rationality in the hysteria of terrorism...

[Solon]

Some things occured to me that I find disturbing and disheartening about Americans in general. One thing is this, the poll about torture is horrendous, and all emotion aside, there are RATIONAL reasons not to torture someone. Number one is that any information gleaned from said torture is inherently unreliable and cannot be trusted on its own merits. The tortured person, even if not a fanatic, may make up information just to stop the torture, or to throw the torturers off track. There is also the possiblity that they know little to nothing at all. It has been known for some time that following normal investigative techniques that are legal are the best way to stop terrorists and to jail them. Even given the worst case scenario of nukes in cities, why waste time on a few suspects when you could actually be looking for the telltale radiological markers in the city? There are always options to consider in this scenario and using torture should never be considered, because time is of the essence and the information given needs to be investigated anyway, leading to wild goose chases.

The other hysteria that I find somewhat amusing is the possibility of Al-Queda having nuclear bombs or capability of making them. No offense, but unless they have all the materials in quesion, an actual working bomb, that is damn near impossible. Even the dirty bomb scenario would not have the affect, besides short term panic, that terrorists want. First they would have to disperse radiological material from a height to be effective depending on winds, and second the worst effect to be expected is increased risk of cancer/birth defects, usually years down the road. Also the idea that countries like North Korea would sell a nuclear device to terrorist is a death wish to them. It would be a matter of days after such a device is detonated that we would be able to tell where it came from, because of its signature, and then the offending country would be a sheet of glass within days of that. Theft is even less likly, because of the radioactive nature of the devices, they could be tracked and found before being used. Don't get me started on 'Suitcase Nukes'.

The worst case scenario we should be worried about are biological/chemical weapons. These can be made rather cheaply, and can be effective in cities because of the population density. Also the fact that they would have a visual effect on the population would have the terror effect these criminal would want.

[thebobartist]

1. This is very true, but

the situation I'm thinking about with torture is that a person may not be willing to submit to traditional investigative procedure, and if you're out of time, what do you do?

I do agree that torture is probably not a particularly realistic or effective route, but what do you do then?

Do you do nothing?

[Solon]

2. Actually it could be argued that torture is the traditional...

investigative technique, but I digress. As far as modern techniques, there are always options to torture. If the suspect does not submit to standard interogation, other options are to let him go, then put him under survellence, using forensics, and to get background information on the subject. It would be much quicker using more reliable techniques than antiquated and unreliable torture to get information. Using only one source to stop terrorism, from an unwilling subject is BAD police technique to begin with, as well as even worst for National Security. The point is there are always options, even in time pressed scenarios, if you have to use torture, then you lost, and lives will not be saved.

[thebobartist]

4. In that situation...

that there is only five hours to prevent a biological weapon from detonating in a metropolitan center, and your only option left is torture (but it would be irrational and pointless to engage in it), what would you suggest?

Do you think there would be a way to rationalize with the detainee?

Should he just be detained further?

[Solon]

6. Actually in that case, you lost and the device detonates....

It is a no win situation, it would take hours to break a suspect, especially a fanatic, so the device goes off without you gleaning any information at all, or bad information at that. In this case millions could die, and you violated someones civil and human rights for nothing.

[izzie]

8. I would think so, if not the world would be filled with these people.

Any one that wanted some thing could use this way to get what they wanted. On the whole it is just a few people use terror.Look back at the use of torture in the church for the state. The people wanted some thing and they had no power and state and church said no. Torture did not stop these people. It was the change is their place in society that stopped it along with the change in society. We had less terror before we went into Iraq so I would say if we came out it will go down. Maybe not stop as we have other Middle East problems. Same as here and the terror we had during Vietnam.Just one way of looking at it.Who can believe anything you get when you hold some ones head in the toilet and flush the thing, or put them on racks?

[sweetheart]

3. torture IS terrorism

Then there is nothing worth fighting for, and the enemy who should
be killed is the police and the government.

The question they should reflect on, is why someone wants to attack
them in the first place. Likely a new generation of enemies are
growing up to fight against the USA police murderers, because of
the USA police murderers behaviour. Terror begets terror.

THe irony is that americans imprisoned for torturing people will
likely be raped in prison and themselves then being tortured and
terrorized in ways considered acceptable to american culture.

It is wholly sick and subhuman.

[thebobartist]

5. In a situation where you're short on time,

it's likely that you won't have time to perform a lengthy psychological exam on the motivations of all terrorism towards the United States - you need results, and while torture will probably not bring you those results, I don't think sitting them down on a couch and asking them how their mother and father felt about the United States for an hour every day for a month is really the solution.

[sweetheart]

7. Thats hardly necessary

Its quite simple. Force israel to settle with the palestineans fairly. Pull the empire bases out of the entire middle east and
get the army back inside our borders... end of terror; end of
terror attacks.

Nobody, even terrorists, attacks justice. All the attacks are for
injustice and because the army is outside our borders murdering
people. Every single terrror event and attack in this silly war,
is motivated by our preemptive use of terror.

It seems that if we can't control our state terror, we can hardly
expect the opposition to control its non-state terror. Its yin
yang... For every gun you manufacture, someone will rise up like
a mushroom to shoot it. If you don't make terror and export it,
then it won't come home to roost.

To call torture necessary, makes us all barbarian subhumans, just
like bush and the neocon filth.