Carlos Santana cries media racism - re: neglect of Elvin Jones's death

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Music maestro Carlos Santana has strongly reprimanded the American media for failing to give due credit to jazz artist Elvin Jones who died recently.

The artist's death passed unnoticed without even a mention in the papers. Santana believes this is due to the racist attitude of the press.

"I'm really embarrassed for this nation, and for MTV and VH1 and Rolling Stone, because it was a very racist thing not to acknowledge this most important musician when he passed," Santana was quoted as saying in The New York Post.

"For them to play up Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-ass white people, but not Elvin, is demeaning and I'm really embarrassed to live in this country," he added

http://in.news.yahoo.com/040620/139/2dqfr.html

I agree with Carlos completely. Elvin Jones was a seminal drummer in one of the greatest groups of all times (he was part of many groups but I'm biased toward his work with Coltrane of course.) He was a huge figure amongst black musicians and deserved wide honors rather than a passing blip on the media radar.

I bet Miles Davis would have said the same thing, yet much more vehemently.

And what would Malcolm say?

There is a long history of the media latching onto a white musician in a black genre in a "see we're as good as them" king of way. Why else do the Beastie Boys have the 1st Hip Hop album to reach #1? Why else has Eminem had more coverage than every other MC in the business combined (including the Imortal Chuck D)? And then there's Elvis...

I join Carlos in crying racism!

edit: correction Beastie Boys Licensed to Ill 1st Hip Hop album to reach #1, not biggest selling.

edit 2 : Biggest selling Hip Hop album: The Marshall Mathers by eminem - furthering my point!

[Loonman]

1. Cuz they're Jews?

(Beastie Boys)

Oooooh, I'm going to Hell. Good thing I don't believe in it.

[smada]

2. It rings a little hollow

In the wake of the coverage of Ray Charles' death. Reality is that many today just don't know who Elvin Jones was, as beloved as he was to jazz aficionados.

[porphyrian]

3. But...

...he wasn't white, and no one knew him at the country club.

[proud patriot]

4. Wow this must of really upset Carlos

He usually is such a postive guy .

I thank God For Carlos Santana

[Cronus Protagonist]

5. Elvin who?

His name doesn't cause a blip on my radar... and it's not because he was black.

ANYBODY BUT BUSH

Click here for "ANYBODY BUT BUSH", and other fair and balanced yet stunning buttons, magnets and stickers

[Loonman]

6. I guess Carlos wasn't a Ray Charles fan

Apparently.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

9. That's a weak argument

Only a small percentage of black artists cross over - and thats driven bythe recording industry, not by culture

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Derided by an equally weak argument

Only a small percentage of artists PERIOD ever get heard of to begin with, black or otherwise. The point is if the media were to be racist as Santana claims, why did they devote so much attention just a week or so ago to a black artist?

[Loonman]

18. Crossover?

Ray never crossed over, he appealed to a wide range of folks; he never compromised his specific style.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

22. Maybe crossover isn't the best word - he had appeal on both sides

But I think its driven by money

[noiretextatique]

70. ray charles and elvin jones are not the same person

for one thing. and of course, ray charles was a cross-over artist.

[sangh0]

83. I guess the quota was filled by Ray Charles

so obviously, racism has nothing to do with it.

[noiretextatique]

92. exactly

:eyes:

7. I'd say it's more anti-intellectualism or anti-elitism

than racism.
Jazz of that caliber is just above mass-media's head.

Like another poster said, Ray Charles got paid attention to.

I'm a huge fan of Elvin Jones by the way and firmly believe in elitism in a certain sense when it comes to art.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

12. To acertain degree I agree with you however

Availability of music to the public is driven by the recording industry and the media - if we had equal access to all artists there would be much more crossover and thus greater appreciation. Figures like Ray Charles and Sammy Davis Jr, Nat King Cole, etc were "allowed" to cross over. If the media didn't make money off them, they'd be forgotten like Elvin.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

See above...

but hardly anyone is "allowed to cross over", regardless of race.

[Karenina]

59. R.I.P. Elvin...

This is the first I've heard that he passed. BRILLIANT TALENT! The thing most seem not to recognize which MAY be part of the reason Carlos goes off is that the man could DO ANYTHING if it involved a trap set. ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING.

[Delano]

19. Why are so many jazz and blues fans so arrogant?

I've listened to enough jazz and blues to know I don't care for much of it. Blues is boring and depressing, and old-style jazz is just boring. The record sales bear that out.

Don't be mad at the vast majority of people for not sharing your taste in music.

I'm not mad at you guys for not liking pop & rock.

BTW, there are a few exceptions - I used to enjoy a little Anita Baker or Robert Cray, but the "real" blues whose authenticity the fans always swooning over doees NOTHING for me.

It is supreme arrogannce to say that anybody who likes their music "processed, homogenized, overproduced, pop, etc.) is "stupid" and yet I can't count the times I've heard jazz/blues aficionados say that.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

24. I love Pop & Rock and listen to it more than jazz

I like metal and classical and world.

That's not the point. You can say I'm arrogant but I feel the music industry is racist. You're only going to get promoted if you are some bling bling thug which plays into the white society/s stereotypes.
Dragging a star from a generation ago like Ray Charles out is not a good argument against this. The media loves to self congratulate itself in this way.

[Delano]

32. Well, on that point I agree.

There used to be a lot of talented rap & hip-hop artists, but they were replaced by the destructive gangstas, and now the just plain dumb bling-bling types - and hip-hop has never been more boring (with a few exceptions)

I don't understand why todays kids aren't interested in SOUL music.

But I don't think it's about white society's stereotypes. Young kids that buy this crap think that bling-bling is COOL.

And the demeanor of a jazz performer is not that different from that of an R&B performer like Anita Baker or Luther Vandross, but if one of them were to die, it would be a big story - BECAUSE R&B is a popular genre, and Jazz is not!

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

37. Man I don't get that either. There are so many great soul artists past

and, very significantly, present. I think they're drinking the media Kool-aid.

I concede to you're argument.

I do still believe there is an inherent racism in the music industry as there is in american society as a whole.

[Delano]

46. You'll get no argument from me on that point.

Unfortunately it's more subtle and pervasive than just a slight against one artist.

Look at Lil' Kim, with her plastic surgery and contacts.

I kinda thought she was cute for a while, but she's gone overboard, and rather than just having fun, she's started to BLEACH herself.




This is NOT celebrating your natural beauty, Kim...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

51. If you read Malcolm X's autobiography

he railed against this "whitification" of black people. All the stuff we see now was happening with the zoot suit crowd of the 40s - including thug worship and drinking expensive liquor - it was scotch back then, rather than cognac and champagne. Its the same damn system, hip hop has simply replaced funk, which replaced soul, which R&B, which replaced blues, which replaced jazz, etc

26. I'm not arrogant, I love rock n roll

Jazz is objectively more complex musically than rock and roll, just as classical is more complex.

I love rock.
Some of my favorite bands are the Sonics, MC5, the Grateful Dead, 13th Floor Elevators, the Clash, the Minutemen, the Beatles, the Beastie Boys, Nirvana, Lee Perry, Public Enemy, Sonic Youth, Bob Marley, Muddy Waters, Peter Green, the Kinks, Bob Dylan, the Stones and that's just for a start.

Try not to oversimplify things.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

29. And I should clarify that I love the Beastie Boys and Eminem

I can't help wondering if jazz would be more popular if the industry promoted it better. It's just a thoery

[Catherine Vincent]

The thrill is gone, eh?

:-)

[NashVegas]

125. Look No Further

than your first two lines, if you want to answer your own question.

*wanders off with a mysterious smile*

[NashVegas]

124. Agreed

Search the lounge for my rantings on what the emphasis on rock has done to the other parts of our musical culture.

found this on Google news:

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=ascii&q=elvin+jones&btnG=Search+News


A sidenote, however.

I like to look through the 'today in history' section of the paper most days. John Lee Hooker died on the same day as Carroll O'Connor.

I can't, for the life of me, recall hearing about it at the time, the Archie Bunker stuff was all over the place. However, in the case of Ray Charles, he died a month after Jones.

[Tim4319]

8. Very powerful.

And, to make matters worse, issues like this don't just happen in the music genre either.

[Fenris]

10. I disagree. It's a case of a public that knows fuck all about jazz.

And cares about it even less. Chalk it up to rock and roll. He may have been a giant to those in the know, but I'd guess over half of this country had know idea who he was.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

15. Will the next generation forget Chuck D?

And Eminem will have a huge funeral?

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

31. No and yes, respectively

Although Chuck D was never that large in a popular framework anyway, though I'm someone that grew up listening to Chuck D and Public Enemy.

[sangh0]

11. ISTR an obit in the NY Times

but I could be wrong.

[Delano]

13. Nonsense. Most people have never heard of Elvin Jones, myself included.

And the media gave plenty of attention to Ray Charles.

It's about fame, not race - sorry Santana.

Carlos shouldn't worry - he'll get plenty of media play when he kicks it.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

17. Why shouldn't he worry?

He's concerned about non-whites getting a fair shake in the media.

[Delano]

23. Non-white musicians get a fairer shake...

than no-whites in most other occcupations, IMO.

His anger over America not caring about the death of a man who was an icon to a narrow niche of musical taste is misplaced, IMO.

Had it been any of the Jacksons, Anita Baker, Lenny Kravitz, Missy Elliot, or any other of scorres of FAMOUS non-white performers, it would have gotten play. The problem was the guys obscurity, not racism.

There's plenty of racism in the world to decry. Why INVENT a case of it?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

27. Fair enough - I have to admit - you might be right

It got me thinking about the prevailing racism that I find in the music industry. This particular example may not be the best due to jazz's unpopularity, however, white musicians have longer lasting careers get promoted better, have more freedom than black musicians.

[hatrack]

14. Americans are jazz ignoramuses

EJ's death did make the papers, but for the most part it seemed to be Page A-2 "Milestones" columns. I found this disappointing, but far from surprising.

I was certainly bummed, as were many of my friends, but lots of us are musicians and not representative of most Americans. Don't expect a big reaction in a nation where this wonderful indigenous musical form accounts for far less than 1% of all commercial music sales, and even then only if you include "jazz" along the lines of Kenny G and the rest of the "smooth jazz" airwave oil slick.

And by the way, I would LOVE to hear what Miles would have to say! Miles at Charlie Parker's funeral: "Motherfucker died before we could get even with him." Yowch!! ;-)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. Once again the French make us look silly

They were jazz freaks!
I bet they still know more than the average American.

33. I was just reading Serge Gainsbourg's biography

Apparently when he died, the French flew their flags at half-mast.
can you imagine that happening for ANY artist in the USA?
Not even for Elvis or Sinatra.

[playahata1]

116. Jazz is certainly much more appreciated in Europe than it is here.

Many jazz musicians make more money from the bigger and more respectful audiences in France, the Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

35. You're completely right

It goes over the heads of the vast majority of America. I freely admit I don't listen to as much jazz as I should, but I most definitely appreciate the genre.

[Cheswick2.0]

40. I don't really like Jazz

That doesn't make me an ignoramus. It just means it is a genre of music that I do not respond to.

[hiphopnation]

21. I agree with some of the posters here...

Glad that Carlos is bringing more attention to the fact that his death went largely uncovered, but this is more ignorance than racism but I think it's some combination of both.

Elvin came from the old school of Jazz and was around when racism was salient and palpable. He lived through it and revolutionized his intstrument in his illustious career, not to mention helped to promote some very influental modern Jazz talent, Winton Marsalis, among them.

But it's painful to admit, that the vast majority of the pulbic just don't care about Jazz the way they did when Elvin Jones was at the height of his career. It's a fact that is hard for a lot of musicians to swallow. I know, cuz I am one. :(

[hatrack]

28. There was an interesting radio show on re. "A Love Supreme" last month

I can't remember the name of the show (local NPR outlet), but it was really interesting.

It talked about how much a part of the popular culture Coltrane - Coltrane! - was during the mid- to late 1960s. If you had walked through Haight-Ashbury in 1967, you were as likely to hear A Love Supreme as you were Hendrix, Jefferson Airplane or the Beatles.

In addition, Bitches Brew and In A Silent Way were simply everywhere at the end of the decade. "Miles Runs The Voodoo Down" (from BB, a fairly out track) was actually released as a single and in some cities was around on jukeboxes (!).

Jazz, in particular Coltrane and Miles, were simply much more a part of the culture 40 years ago than today. Sad but true.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. My Pastor is a jazz pianist, his ensemble did that piece at church

It was a special concert/jazz vespers.

[hiphopnation]

49. It's important to note...

that Santana's music has gone in a very corporate direction of late. He has not stayed the jam-Jazz oreinted latin-rock that he became popular with. His stuff has heavy rotation on soft-rock/pop stations!

I sometimes don't understand musicians reaction to the public when they (finally) come to the realization that Jazz is no longer the music of choice for bars, pubs, dances etc. As the music became more and more obscure as it naturally matured the audience shrunk to a more confined and sophisticated group of people. It has largely become "musicians music", IMHO.

Elvin, I'm sure, was given his due props amongst the hard-core Jazz lovers all over the world.

R.I.P. Elvin.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

62. I'm not a musician n/t

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

63. I'm not a musician n/t

[playahata1]

118. Your comment re Elvin Jones:

<<<Elvin, I'm sure, was given his due props amongst the hard-core Jazz lovers all over the world.>>>

This reminds me of something a friend of mine told me a few years ago. We are both writers who have given public readings of our work through our school's creative writing program's weekly reading series. Not many people came out to hear either of us read -- as compared to some of our other classmates/colleagues.

My friend and I both wondered if racism was why neither I nor he drew big crowds to our readings. However, we both concluded that other factors -- people not liking our particular brand of poetry, the fact that we are not even close to being big-name authors (not yet), etc. -- may have come into play. My friend said: "I would rather have a few down-ass (loyal, who really respect and give a damn about you and your work) people come to hear me read than to have a big crowd of people who are there only because they want to get drunk (the readings took place at an off-campus bar) and catch a ride to a party after the reading."

This is exactly what Elvin Jones and other jazz musicians, blues musicians, and other non-mainstream artists have had to deal with and accept. The moral of the story is: GET YOUR LOVE FROM WHEREVER YOU CAN FIND IT.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

55. Miles Davis said that when Trane died the voice of the Black culture

died. Acording to miles his sound was the embodiment of the black struggle and when he died there was mourning like never before.

[hiphopnation]

68. I don't think that this

is an issue of racism as much as you're making it. You're romanticizing Jazz, which is wonderful because it deserves to be learned and spread to future generations, but what was the public reaction when Gil Evans died? What do you think it will be when Gary Burton dies? Certainly not comparing the genius of Elvin to these folks because he revolutionized his instrument, but this is still esoteric knowledge. Average non-musicans or Jazz lovers don't know and don't really care who these people are. It's a sad fact that is not skin-tone specific, IMHO.

As another poster pointed out, if Aretha Franklin were to die tomorrow, would there not be a huge public mourning?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

80. Absolutely - Aretha has Cross over appeal (I'm not sayin sell out here)

But the fact remains that the music industry has racist overtones. Carlos may have picked a bad example due to jazz being unpopular - but his point remains, its racist.

[hiphopnation]

86. A completely different thread...

The music business is racist?!?! WHaaaa?!?! I'm so shocked! /sarcasm

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

108. Well the media is also racist and i think that was Carlos point

I recind my original opinion siding with Carlos on elvin due to jazz being unpopular, though I think his underlying point has merit.

[leftofthedial]

25. I do not believe it is racism

I think it is:

a. he was a jazz player (a relatively small, increasingly obscure niche)

b. he was a drummer (an obscure position in the ensemble)



Neither makes it right that his passing went unnoticed. He was indeed a monster in music, profoundly influential.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

30. Do you feel that the music industry has racist overtones? n/t

[Delano]

36. Yes, it does. The movie "CB4" was a funny dissection of it.

I love how the regular guys couldn't get a contract without thugging out and doing crappy music.

Remember when MC Hammer tried to go "gangsta"? That was one of the saddest displays I've ever seen...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

41. Damn straight - made me want to puke

When a white guy is successful at "crossing over" (can't think of a better term) ala eminem, man the media goes nuts - the whole "great white hope" bullshit. Hope for what? Total domination, I don't get it.

CB4 was funny as hell tho!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

52. Whaaaaa?

So, you didn't buy Hammers "transformation"? I really thought for a minute he was going to kick 3rd Bass's ass. ;)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

60. Man Criss Cross would wipe the floor with him

And so would Lil' Romeo - if he were born then.

He was still better than Mark Walberg tho!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

65. OK, THAT'S IT.

No one talks shit about Marky around me. :evilgrin:

[tishaLA]

61. I give that post the gas face!

:P

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

69. The Cactus baby.

:thumbsup:

[leftofthedial]

102. probably less so than many institutions

I think the marketing of music by corporations has quasi-racist overtones, because of the elusive--mostly white--demographic they try to reach.

I also think "white" music industry has been very quick to capitalize on trends in black music and repackage them for the larger, more affluent white market.

I also think that jazz has never been well marketed. But that's not due to racism. That's due to the underdeveloped cultural appreciation for jazz in our society. We grossly underfund all cultural endeavors in Murka, compared to the rest of the "developed" world.


But if you look at the large number of hugely successful mainstream artists of color, I'd say the music industry is, perhaps next to athletics, the least racist industry in America.

[gottaB]

34. an archived post on this topic:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1719632#1719892

(some links there about Elvin Jones--too lazy to retype)

[Commendatori]

38. This corny-ass white person objects.

If Santana has a point to make about racism, he could have done it without calling whites "corny-ass."

Fighting perceived racism with blatant racism isn't helping anyone.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

43. I think the "corny-ass white guy" was a nod to Miles Davis who

in his autobiography referred to any white person making more money than blacks in a genre createed by blacks playing inferion music as "corny-ass white guys"

I know Ozzy played metal but trace metals roots back and you'll reach rural black America.

I think that's hat he meant

[Cheswick2.0]

53. I guess that makes Yo Yo Ma a corny assed asian guy

and Jesse Norman is a corny assed black woman.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

66. Not following you

explain please

[redqueen]

94. If I may...

Yo Yo Ma = Asian man making more money than white violinists in a field created by white people = 'corny ass blah blah blah'

This whole thread is sad.

[sangh0]

101. But there's no history of Asians and blacks making more money

than white people by playing music white people invented.

IOW, those are two exceptions. In the music world, the general rule is white people play music black people invented and get paid more than the black people who made it.

In the world of classical music, the general is that white people play music that white people invented, and other people generally do not get paid more than the white people.

[redqueen]

104. Well no one said Miles said there had to be a *history* of it

As for white people being paid more, talk to me after women have wage parity.

:)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

106. You got a point there

indeed

[Cheswick2.0]

107. Yo Yo Ma makes more than any White person playing the Cello

The point is , is it okay for people to appreciate and play the music of other ethnicities or not?

PS... Jesse Norman makes more money singing Opera than many white female opera singers. I am a huge fan of hers.

[redqueen]

110. I think so

I thought the issue was the labeling of 'white' artists who made more $$$ than the Black artists in a genre invented by Black artists as a 'corny assed white person'.

I thought that was a counterproductive thing to do, to label people that way.

I agree it's shameful that there is no recognition given to those who invented the genre, but namecalling doesn't help IMO.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

105. How is it sad?

[redqueen]

111. It just seems to be

more of the same... people talking at each other... not really hearing each other.

*sigh*

[Commendatori]

54. Possibly, but I still think his approach was bullshit

If he wants me to take his cause seriously, he can start by not insulting menbers of MY race.

The press seemed to cover Ray Charles' death pretty throrughly.

You know, I never heard of Elvin Jones before today, and neither had anyone in my office. Maybe that has something to do with it.

As for the press, it took me close to half a year to realize that one of my musical heroes growing up, "Lonesome" Dave Peverett, died at the age of 56. He was the frontman for a band (Foghat) that sold millions of albums, and the press didn't cover it all. Peverett was a "corny-ass white person."

You may be right, you might not - but for those of us "corny-ass white folks" who had never heard of Jones, can we be expected to make the connection you spelled out in your post to me, or are we simply supposed to take racist cracks from someone accusing us of racism?

I know racism is a problem everywhere, including the media - but whites are NOT the only racists, and Santana acted like an ass when he could have simply spelled out a point instead.

I'm angry about this, and I've bought my last Santana recording.

:mad:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

67. Too bad your so sensitive

Santana makes (I should say made) good music.

I wouldn't take it personally

[Commendatori]

79. He did - and it's not like I feel this way on purpose.

In DC I hear about "you racist crackers" almost every day.

I'm tired of being told that the only racists are white and am tired of taking racist remarks practically every time I'm told this.

Santana is a superb musician, but this "corny-ass white person" thinks he acted like an ass.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

81. Fair enough

n/t

[Cheswick2.0]

58. you make a good argument, however "reverse racism"........

is an angry white guy fantasy. Don't buy into that. Bigotry or prejudice maybe but racism? Nah

[redqueen]

95. How are bigotry and prejudice not racism

if they're practiced according to race?

I agree that 'reverse racism' doesn't exist - because it's not 'reverse' anything, it's just straight-up racism.

[Cheswick2.0]

109. first of all ....there is no such thing as different races

Racism is something you practice to keep the less powerful in their place. You can not keep the dominate "race" in it's place when you have not power to do so. "Reverse racism" is a Klan invention which has made it's little talking point way into the mainstream, don't use it.

[redqueen]

115. Right

races are a construct, I get that.

However, we disagree about what racism is. IMO it is holding on to beliefs about a group of people with like-colored skin, or prejudicies against such a group, based on generalizations or 'truisms' about that group.

So... to me... racism could be a Black cashier treating me (as a Hispanic) with less respect than they do a Black customer. It could be a white person treating me with less respect than they would a white person. A Black person saying "Mexicans are lazy" is IMO saying something racist. A Hispanic person saying "Arabs are out to get us" is saying something racist.

Gee I feel like I'm being way more verbose than I need to... been a long day... hope that made some kind of sense!

[redqueen]

96. I agree

I don't know if Santana meant to promote understanding. What he's done here is deepen the divide.

:(

[tishaLA]

39. I think Carlos is right, really

It IS something Rolling Stone and MTV should have covered because Jones was so influential as a drummer. And, while some people make good points about popularitty as an important component to posthumous attention (i.e., Mr. Charles), it's also important to remember Mr. Charles got LOTS of affention for his contributions in Country music and he was visible because of his Pepsi jingles and his rendition of America the Beautiful--work that made him amenable to mainstream culture.

The music press, especially, should "play up" important artists, not just visible ones.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

47. Agreed. I couldn't have put it better myself

and I tried :)

[tishaLA]

56. You would have done it without the typos though

:D

[hiphopnation]

72. Well

if you're looking to MTV and Rolling Stone for SERIOUS coverage of music that is your first mistake, IMHO.

[noiretextatique]

73. of course he is right eom

[pocket]

42. First GG Allin and Wesley Willis, now this Elvin guy

The man is holding us down!

[noiretextatique]

76. idiotic, per usual

all the idiots come out to post everytime race is mentioned here.

[louis-t]

44. Heard the name, but I'm not that familiar

with many white jazz musicians either. I think he over-reacted because he loved Elvin Jones. Carlos should stop saying he's embarrassed to live in this country. This country has been very good to him.

Edit: cause I wrote 'Elvin Bishop'!

[tishaLA]

45. Elvin Bishop?

[cmf]

50. I didn't think it was neglected, but I listen to NPR

I remember that Morning Edition did a good story when he died. Also, Fresh Air did a tribute a couple days later. I can't remember whether or not I saw it in the newspaper, though.

[Catherine Vincent]

57. "For them to play up Ozzy Osbourne and other corny-ass white people,"

LOL! I'll suspect Ozzy won't like this comment.

[Delano]

71. ALl the complaining about black stereotypes...

...if Ozzy is the stereotype of whites that is being promoted, we're in trouble too...

[GumboYaYa]

64. It's pervasive throughout the music industry.

Rolling Stone just did a "50 Greatest Moments in the Development of Rock" series and actually said that rock n' roll was invented by a white boy in a studio in Memphis.

After stealing all the black artists songs for years, you would think that by now at least people would start to correct the historical record. Where the hell would rock be without Louis Jordan and all the other jump blues greats. Hell, Earl Palmer invented backbeat drumming in Cosimo's studio on Frenchman Street. That's where they formed the first rock n' roll band, not ten years later in Memphis. Without a backbeat, there never would be rock n' roll. What about Sam Phillips recording Jackie Breston's "Rocket 88" with Ike Turner. A lot of people say that was the first true Rock n' Roll song, but no...a bunch of crackers invented rock n' roll by copying what black artists had been doing for years.

The music establishment is without question racist IMO.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

75. Right - Miles Davis said he was most musically moved in his life as

a child visiting his uncle in the country (in the 30's) hearing old shack blues houses jump with life through the rural nights. Needless to say he wasn't so fond of the Pelvis!

[noiretextatique]

77. it is...remember when black people couldn't even be on album covers?

i do.

[GumboYaYa]

82. Fortunately, that was before my time.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that I have not seen plenty of racist attitudes in the music business. One of the best developments in music IMO is the hip-hop artists who are starting their own labels and making fortunes. Racism ultimatley boils down to power and power boils down to money. These guys are helping shift the dynamics back to the creators.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

85. I admire Russell Simmons and his brother - Reverend Run

Good for them!

[noiretextatique]

90. i agree...though i don't like most of the music

it's great that people like p diddy and master p and others are creating their own empires. they have definitely shifted the dynamics...it's about time. i recall even a ray charles album, among many others, with blonde-haired, blue-eyed folks on the cover. it was the "tradition" back them...for marketing purposes, i believe.

[tishaLA]

100. I remember him talking about the first time he saw the cover of

"Sketches of Spain," I think, and he said to the Columbia guy, "who's this white bitch on the cover of my CD?"...They had to create a romantic ideal with which the white listener could identify.

[Mike Daniels]

74. A lot of actors/musicians don't get mass coverage when they die

His complaints are disingenious at best given the recent coverage given over to Ray Charles passing away.

Jazz (outside of the smooth or easy jazz format) remains a niche format in terms of popular consumption at best and outside of the front men like Miles, Dave Brubeck, Duke Ellington and others of their stature, I doubt the general public knows that much about the supporting players of the bands fronted by the big names of that era.

The name of Elvin Jones means nada to probably 98% of the public and I doubt a 3 page tribute is going to increase any significant interest in the man. The majority of people who would care about this probably are going to read about in the trade mags or periodicals like Rolling Stone.

Carlos needs to get a sense of perspective.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

78. If you read Carlos's quote he's talking about Rolling Stone

Just sayin'

[Mike Daniels]

88. When did he die exactly?

With RS coming out every other week, I'd give them a two issue window to come up with something before claiming they ignored it altogether.

Granted, he's not going to get much space in RS either but RS is pretty much limited to rock and roll coverage unless you had an influence on the R&R sound or a significant number of rock-based musicians.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

123. May 21st

So it would be this issue, no?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

84. Nina Simone took it one step further- she left this country-was she wrong?

Should Carlos leave?

[GumboYaYa]

91. Sidney Bechet, Josephine Baker, Bricktop Smith.....

I bet I can think of at least twenty more great musicians who left the US because of racism. We really don't want to relive that ugly chapter of our history.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

103. So what can be done?

To change this unchanging system

[GumboYaYa]

114. Well, some changes are coming about as a result of artists

starting their own labels. Additionally, artists will be able to use the internet to directly reach their fans and sell music or give it away without the huge obligations to the labels.

Olu Dara is a great example. He cut two albums and refuses to do anymore. He says he can make more money touring with his existing albums as he could working his ass off in the studio to make an album that makes money for the label.

Nevertheless, the big problem is the prevalence of radio in promoting artists. Lots and lots of the listening public are not proactive enough to find good bands on their own. They rely on radio to discover new artists. As long as that is the case, payola will rule and the labels will continue to hold power. The internet is one way to make music more avaiable, but how do you get consumers to be more active in their listening? I don't know.

[playahata1]

119. Is this the trumpet player Olu Dara?

If so, did you know that he is the father of the rapper Nas?

[GumboYaYa]

126. Yep, that's him.

Another DUer, Bif, turned me on to him then I saw him live. He is incredible. He was a studio musician for years. His son talked him into doing his own albums. Both albums that he cut are wicked good.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

122. Especially when companies like Clear Channel have us by the short

curlies. I mean, if the reins are so tightly held only that homogenous pap will trickle past.

It's depressing, so very depressing.

[hiphopnation]

87. Pray tell...

why would anyone look to Rollingstone for serious, informed music critique? This is a pop-culture fashion mag not a serious commentary on modern music. $0.02

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

89. Agreed but Carlos has the celebrity to make his statements stand out

perhaps he's trying to shame these rags into gaining integrity

[GumboYaYa]

93. Boy, that might be the most accurate statement I heard all day.

I shake my head in disbelief every time I read that rag.

97. They do do stuff like that all the time

When Joe Strummer died, was he on the cover?
HA!
It was Justin Timberlake as I recall.

[Mike Daniels]

99. Come to think of it when Curtis Mayfield died.....

Rolling Stone's cover story was about Melissa Etheridge, her lover and David Crosby's "situation".

Curtis got a three page article but I was so furious anyway that I sent them a letter blasting their coverage. They ran it much to my amazement.

[jpgray]

98. People in general don't know jack about jazz

Also, they don't care. They care about Ray Charles, however. Elvin was never famous, he was just immeasurably important--the media won't recognize you for one of these choices.

[theboss]

112. "I have no idea who that is" - Homer J. SImpson

I'm a music geek and own a bunch of Coltrane albums and never heard of this guy.

[goclark]

113. Tell It Like It T - I - is Santana !

Santana ROCKS and so did Elvin Jones.

Elvin was a GIANT!!

[G_j]

117. Elvin was an American treasure, I didn't even know he died

how sad! He was possibly the greatest drummer of all time, & my favorite. One of America's greatest and purest gifts to humanity is jazz IMO.
Thank you Carlos for bringing attention to this.

[playahata1]

120. Do you think some of what Santana was saying may have been twisted?

After all, he was quoted in that fine RW rag, THE NEW YORK POST.

Don't forget what some RW publications tried to do with Bill Cosby.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

121. You think the Murdochians are trying to make him seem like a reverse

racist?