when people claim islam is a violent religion?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

in the past i have heard people procliam that islam is a violent religion. today, on the way home from work i was listening to a local radio show and this topic came up. so i get home and look up a few things... of course i find some pat robertsonesque sites stating islam is violent religion by siting passages of the koran that call for death and such.

i also found this quick little site http://www.religioustolerance.org/isl_war.htm t
wich points out that the recent violent acts carried out in the name of islam are probably due more to social situations and also points out that islam is a fragmented religion just like christianity, so to say that islam is a "violent religtion" is making a very broad statement. islam has no central authority like the vatican or general assemblies.

i am wondering if i could get your feedback on this topic. as i understand it the koran says some pretty extreme things (as of course so does the bible), however i personally do not believe that all or most practitioners of this religion would take the koran this literally. what do you think? how can one argue against the idea that islam is a violent religion seeing as its hand book calls for death to non-belivers?

please do not read anything into my inquiry, i am a agnostic/atheist who doesn't have a dog in this fight, i would just assume all religion goes away to get rid of all this conflict and self righteousness.

i guess i am more or less interested in hearing arguments against the statement "islam is a violent religion."

thanks.

[mark11727]

1. Hell no...

...but those Amish and Quakers scare me silly.

[smirkymonkey]

5. But at least they're not as violent

as the Unitarians. Bloody warmongers!

[AngryAmish]

25. Hey....HEY!

[mark11727]

59. Sorry, my bad.

I meant to say Heaven's Gate.

They're so bad, they even killed their own selves.

[corriger]

2. it is no more or less violent than the christian religion

excluding the few true fanatics (truly disturbed I mean to say) vs. it is really about people and their society, economics, injustice, poverty, mix in some oppression, lack of educations, etc (and the environements which create or are conducive to fanaticism). American christian fundamentalists would act the same under similar circumstance.

[Forkboy]

3. I tell them to read the Old Testament

and get back to me :)

[DrWeird]

4. Right now, there are christians slaughtering muslims in the Sudan.

It's an out and out genocide.

Anybody who goes on about how Islam is a violent religion is a damned dirty bigot, and should be told so to his face.

[corriger]

7. good point and a another current context

I was just thinking that it is my thought that people whom try to make such points or espouse such ideas as this are ignorant of history and as you mention the present world around them.

[geek tragedy]

18. I call bullshit.

It's the other way around. Read a newspaper.

The Muslims are doing all the killing in the Sudan.

[DrWeird]

34. I'll see your ten and raise you twenty.

While the civil war has been raging in the Sudan for years, right now the muslim civilians are being massacred by the christians.

So I call your bluff, and tell you to pick up a newspaper.

[geek tragedy]

40. The Muslims are the ones committing genocide in the Sudan

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=sudan+christians+muslims+genocide&btnG=Search

Your ignorance is shocking.

[The Magistrate]

43. It Is Worth Noting, Sir

The recent spasm in this ghastly business is being conducted by Moslems against Moslems. The nomad killers employed by the government to do it are Moslem, and the farmers they predate upon are Moslem....

[geek tragedy]

44. Indeed it is.

Mass atrocities conducted and/or encouraged by the Islamist government of the Sudan are at least non-discriminatory.

They will butcher Christians, Animists, and fellow Muslims with equal fervor.

[Yupster]

32. I thought the Muslims already

slaughtered all the Chrstians in the Sudan? Or sold them into slavery at least.

[DrWeird]

35. Well, yeah, if you watch CBN.

But then again if you watch CBN you probably wouldn't care about the poor black people in Africa.

[Yupster]

37. The Black people in the Sudan

were the Christians. Whole villages have been depopulated with the men killed and women and children taken away.

[geek tragedy]

42. Or any other news source.

Sorry, but you're spreading lies by saying the Christians are the ones committing genocide in the Sudan.

[jayavarman]

56. You have no idea what you are talking about

Muslim militias called the 'Janjaweed' are ethnicly cleansing the Darfur region of southern Sudan as we speak . . . please read a newspaper befor you post.

Hopefully this post was mistaken & not some attempt at disinformation.

[westsidexview]

6. usually little separation from politics and religion in islam

islam is a political movement as well as a religious movement. that is why saddam and osama had little to do with each other because saddam was a secular politician. saddam was a bad muslim. if a state is muslim,then in defending its right to exist it could be called a violent religion.

[corriger]

9. looking at this in such fashion the very same can

be said of christians. Yes, perhaps but the point of this is not neither judge or personalise to an individual level. Again aside from the rhetoric there is no different than christianity.

[Yupster]

48. I read somewhere long ago

that the most important thing historically that Jesus said was "Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's".

It set the whole groundwork for the separation of church and state and has allowed so many advances to technology and science.

I think the lack of a separation of church and state explains much of the Muslim world's backwardness.

[Veggie Meathead]

8. Although Islam may not be a violent religion, it sanctions the use

of violence in the true believer's dealings with the infidels;in fact, it guarantees a place in heaven for the true believer if he delivers a deathblow to the infidel.Another strong undercurrent of the Islamic religion is the use of violence to avenge dishonor brought upon the religion by the conduct of either an infidel or by one of the true believers.This act of cleansing the religion of a stain has been usually applied against women by beheading.

Islamic Law ( Sharia) also does not treat believers and infidels as equal in their courts.In fact it is taken for granted that nonbelievers do not have equal standing in front of an Islamic court.This law has been vigorously enforced in countries like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the Emirates which have a large number of people from the Subcontinent, Thailand, Phillipines and other Asian countries working as domestic servants.Their plight goes unremarked for the most part in spite of the fact that over the past three or four decades they have been abused, tortured, raped and killed by their masters in the thousands.

Yes, I believe that Islam is a very violent religion.The proof is that not a single voice has been raised in the countries mentioned against this brutal treatment of helpless girls and women.

[DrWeird]

10. People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

While christians US troops were torturing men, women, and children at Abu Ghraib, they forced them to renounce Allah and accept Jesus.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

11. link...

gotta see this one backed up...maybe i missed it

theProdigal

[DrWeird]

12. No link.

It was widely reported here at DU, specifically in regards to the photo of the man covered in feces and more recent reports, search the archives, and I believe it was in the Taguba report.

[corriger]

15. the photograph of the man

that the americans covered in faeces is particularly sick. Search the DU and you will find the reference probably you can do the same with google too as the religious harrassment has been widely reported on.

[kiahzero]

20. Here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse
"Do you pray to Allah?" one asked. "I said yes. They said, '<Expletive> you. And <expletive> him.' One of them said, 'You are not getting out of here health<y>, you are getting out of here handicapped. And he said to me, 'Are you married?' I said, 'Yes.' They said, 'If your wife saw you like this, she will be disappointed.' One of them said, 'But if I saw her now she would not be disappointed now because I would rape her.' <...> "They ordered me to thank Jesus that I'm alive." <...> "I said to him, 'I believe in Allah.' So he said, "But I believe in torture and I will torture you.' " -- Ameen Saeed Al-Sheik

[corriger]

26. forgive me but ah the satisfaction I would have to place the barrel

of a 45 onto the forehead and between the eyes of such an indvidual and to pull the trigger. It would do the world a favour.

--and this has nothing to do with 'religion'. Sorry but to read the words of these beasts.

[DrWeird]

27. You'll have to accept the consolation prize.

We get to pay for his college education and veterans benefits.

[corriger]

29. heh rather sick isn't it

was this a soldier or one of the other american workers? It has been a while since I read portions of this story.

[DrWeird]

30. Don't now about that specific testmony...

but in other instances it is US soldiers.

Don't forget Ashcroft. And Bush. And Rumsfeld. And republican congressmen who crack jokes about people who wear diapers on their heads. This shit's institutionalized.

[corriger]

31. I know it is and fully agree with you

my thought is that it goes well beyond organisisations it is more of an american societal problem

[DrWeird]

36. Well, it's a universal problem.

We just won't get anywhere by convincing ourselves we're better than the other guy.

[corriger]

13. not every form of islam practices sharia

nor is this interpretation shared by all whom practice islam. Also generally for women beheading is not usually a choice of execution. Again just more uninformed rhetoric and little fact beyond vague generalisation. Until other societal pressures came to bear christian woman have been treated historically much the same. These pressures are just now becoming about in the eastern world.

[Veggie Meathead]

14. Go tell that to the young women from Thailand, Cambodia, India,

Philippines and other countries who are nothing but slaves to their rich masters in the Arab countries. In fact, one of them had the temerity to bring a young Indonesian girl to Boston and kept her as a slave locked up in their house.It was the fortuitous sighting of this young girl by a neighbor that saved her life. I am just sick of people in our country who are blind to the suffering of innocent young people,who by economic necessity, wind up in the hands of these rich torturers who hide behind their religious doctrines.

[DrWeird]

16. Go tell the Iraqis.

Or the Sudanese.

Or African Americans.

[corriger]

17. what the bloody hell are you talking about?

Granted your topic is worthy but it probably deserves thread of its own. The same happens every day outside of any religious connotation. Look at the trade of young woman in europe. This has nothing to do with religions.

[DrWeird]

19. Why haven't you seen...

"Triumph of the Will 2: The Curse of Ali Baba"?

It plays after hours on the Fox News Channel.

[Veggie Meathead]

47. I am talking about two things.That Islam condones violence in

defense of the religion against infidels.I am also talking about the
active promotion and aid to these religious bigots of Islam by the socalled Islamic countries.Let me just cite two examples of this.I have already talked about the violence visited upon a young Indonesian maid by her "master" in Boston.There was also the case of a jet in Nepal,full of tourists from India that was hijacked by the Islamic militants from Pakistan who murdered several passengers while their plane was allowed to land in Afghanistan.During this stopover they murdered in cold blood several passengers including a pregnant woman in front of her husband and other children.The Pakistani government refused an extradition request for the murderer who was identified by several passengers on the plane.This same murderer later turned out to be the beheader of Daniel Pearl the Wall Street Journal reporter.

We in this country who are supposedly liberal are guilty of valuing the lives of people from other countries at a lower level than American lives.Therefore, we ascribe to these beasts of Islam a noble quality that they don't deserve.If we want to judge our own soldiers harshly that is fine with me so long as we judge the wanton cruelty inflicted on far more helpless people from the Asian countries by these Islamic fanatics just as severely.The real culprits in this
cruelty are the Saudi Royal family,the Pakistani government, the Kuwaiti Sheikhs and others in the Middle East who have behaved with merciless cruelty well hidden from our view.I suggest that you look at the record of these Islamic fanatics and their governments before judging our own government harshly.

[Astarho]

38. Go tell it to Neil Bush

what with his far eastern sex tours. The "rich masters" aren't just in Arab countries.

[The Stranger]

21. The irony is that Crusading Christians have slaughtered far more Muslims

than Muslims have ever come close to killing Christians.

[DrWeird]

22. No need to go back to the crusades.

The US, under fundamentalist christian leadership, has killed far more Afghani and Iraqi civilians than died on 9-11.

[JVS]

24. If one figures in the Ottoman empire's conquest of the balkans

in which they reached the gates of Vienna and Moorish invasions of Spain it might come out about even. The crusades were very violent, but they were generally over a small area and one of them didn't even make it that far when the Westerm-Christian army decided to just sack Eastern-Christian Constantinople.

I'd guess that the numbers are about even.

[The Magistrate]

57. No Need, Sir, To Confine Consideration So Closely

In the period between the fifteenth and eighteenth century, several million Europeans were yaken into slavery off the Mediterranean coast, and off its waters, by Turk and Arab raiders. The earlier conquest of Anatolia by the Turks was conquest of a Christian region, and signally bloody. This continued well into the modern era, with the Armenian genocide, and the expulsion of the remnant Greek population of western Anatolia after the Great War, accomplished with much slaughter. There is a great deal of naivite concerning history outside the West in some quarters....

[sweetheart]

23. white supremacy is a violent religion pretending to be christianity

Truth be told, there are no christians in the GOP. It is a bunch
of white racists who think they know better about torture and that
"our" culture is superior... and they sell this to neoliberals who
buy in on the basis that human rights really is superior to national
ignorance.... but nobody is selling human rights... geesh..

selling human rights with a gun is a real... ha ha... "i order you
to have human rights you low life heathens"... :-)

It is the neoliberalism that is our undoing.

[Jade Fox]

28. The fundamentalist wing of ALL religions...

is usually an unsavory group, prone to extreme behavior. Naturally they
tend to get the most attention.

For an example of violence done in the name of Christianity you have
a lot of choices, but you need look no further than the Third Reich, or in
this country the KKK.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

33. thanks for the replies so far!

i don't really have anything to add as of yet. thanks for the replies.

[Yupster]

39. As you said, Islam is a very fragmented

religion.

For instance, the Taliban and Pakistani extremists may be closely tied, but they are only loosely tied to the former Soviet Central Asian jihadi warriors who fight among them. The same can be said for the extremists who slip into Kashmir and India to blow people up.

Also, while there have been many massacres in Indonesia, they are probably not related to the assasinations and kidnappings in the Philippines and southern Thailand, and they are certainly not related to the uprisng in Chechnya.

The same is true of the mobs rampaging through Nigeria, which may have no connection at all to the perpetrators of the genocide in Sudan, or are currently invading the defenseless nation of Chad.

While the Bosnian Muslims have had much financial backing from the Saudis, it hasn't always been that way. In World War II, Hitler filled the XIII SS Division Handschar and XXI SS Division Skanderberg with Bosnian and Albanian Muslims and they killed all the Serbs they could without any Saudi backing at all.

So, it's a complicated question since there are so many different Muslim sects and so many places around the world where the violence is taking place.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. Bill Maher says Islam is a violent religion... I believe he is an atheist

I have never said Islam is a violent religion. I am a christian.

Maybe you need to address this to other Agnostic/Atheists. Why are they saying Islam is a violent religion? Why are some of them making a Robertsonesque argument? Wouldn't we be better off is all Atheist/Agnostics went away to get rid of all this conflict and self righteousness?

[SheepyMcSheepster]

50. i addressed everyone with this question.

and i did not say i wish religious practitioners would go away, just religion.

living based on a mythology that conflicts with another's mythology leads to real world conflicts.

[Cheswick2.0]

51. yup

I didn't think you would answer my question.
But you did just poke a hole in your own argument. You are not objective. Calling someone's beliefs mythology shows your prejudice.
Thanks for proving my point....as it flys over your head.

[SheepyMcSheepster]

53. do you consider the beliefs of the greeks mythology?

how are their beliefs any more verifiable than yours? you believe christianity as absolute truth yet you want to chastise me for being objective? nice.

also, what is my argument?

as far as you questions, i just realised your where asking them, i read it as you wanted me to ask these questions to athiests/agnostics.

if you claify who the "they" is i will attempt to answer you questions, are you talking about athiest/agnostics or the people who believe islam is a violent religion?

[ElectroPrincess]

60. IMHO Bill Maher

is a media attention-whore. Sure he was punished for a while by the right wing but he's the type of personality who could easily pull a "Dennis Miller" if you know what I mean.

The ones who "foam at the mouth the most" are the right wing fundamentalists toward Islam. I'm also a Christian. However, being a Christian, specifically a Catholic. We (Christians) have done abhorrent and in-human acts "for the lord." Think of The inquisition, The Salem Witch Trials. Further, there's some suggestion that a warped interpretation of his Catholic Faith was a contributing factor to push our own "home grown" terrorist off the edge.

Christians are as prone to violence as those who follow Islam. Don't fool yourself. A significant portion of the WARS have been fought in the name of religious fanaticism ... religious zealots of all stripes.

On Edit: Forgive me: I forgot to name our own homegrown Catholic Terrorist = Timothy McVeigh. <please don't flame me for I'm a practicing Catholic>

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. The Old Testament has no lack of bloodthirstyness.

There's slaughter by God's command galore. Not to mention kidnapping of virgins, rape, and pillage.

"The Bible is a book with some beautiful poetry, a bloodstained history, and a wealth of obscenity." - Mark Twain

[thebigmansentme]

46. it's fringe view

of neocon conservatives, it's what most of freepers think

[Columbia]

49. Religions don't kill people, people kill people

Judge people on their actions, not on their religious faith.

[Disturbed]

54. US Allies

"The real culprits in this cruelty are the Saudi Royal family,the Pakistani government, the Kuwaiti Sheikhs and others in the Middle East who have behaved with merciless cruelty well hidden from our view.I suggest that you look at the record of these Islamic fanatics and their governments before judging our own government harshly."

The US Govt. supports these regimes. In fact the Bush Christian Crime Family is close friends with the Saudi Royalty. Saudi Arabia is one the top ten countries with horrible human rights violations and the top country regarding beheadings. Has anyone ever heard or read any condemnation from BushCo of the Saudi record of brutality and barbarism?

[Columbia]

55. I'm guessing that was not a response to my post

[Veggie Meathead]

62. I agree with you to the extent that we have not focused on the

barbarism of our Islamic allies in the Middle East.Part of it,is our dependence on oil.But an even greater part is our woeful ignorance of that part of the world.This ignorance crosses all political affiliations in this country, liberals and conservatives alike.Liberals take a romantic view of the arabs/muslims while the conservatives demonize them.Reality says that the Islamic religion dominates these countries in a way that would be unthinkable in more secular Western societies.Any intrusion by western culture is seen not just as a disruptive influence on these patriarchal societies,it is also seen as a dishonor to be avenged.The rage of the Islamic militants against the West should be seen not just in political terms but in terms of the idea that somehow Western culture is dirty and degrading to Islam.A particular symbol of this is the Western woman who weras very little clothes while the Arab/Muslim culture frowns on women exposing any part of their bodies.This sexual subtext is particularly threatening to the Mullahs and Imams of the Islamic world.The cruelty in the sentences meted out to women who stray from their dogmas is a telling evidence of this undercurrent of sexual insecurity in these societies.

Yes, I do believe that Islam is a particularly violent religion;its treatment is harsh to its own followers and to infidels who intrude into its turf and violate the rules that entrench the power of its religious aristocracy.They believe that they have a divine mission to wage war crossing national boundaries to defeat the enemies of Islam.The rulers of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran,Syria and other countries believe in providing sanctuaries to these Mujahideen.

I suggest all the posters on this thread remove their blinders and see the world for what it is.Those who think I am exaggerating should read V.S.Naipaul's AMONG THE BELIEVERS-AN ISLAMIC JOURNEY to get an idea of the mindset we are dealing with.The cruelty of these Islamic societies, the childlike gloating of the Mullahs in imposing harsh sentences including beheadings, the casual way in which justice is meted out and the rage exhibited by the fanatics against all outsiders is very well described by Naipaul,the Nobel Prize Winner for Literature after a lengthy trip through many of these countries over several years.The unblinking gaze he brings to bear on these cultures will open our eyes once we see these cultures as they are.

[Cleita]

52. This is a chicken and egg argument.

Which came first the society or the religion? My personal view is that society can shape the religion, not the other way around, so society should insist that it's religious leaders take the best that society has to offer and try to inspire everyone to do the same.

[ElectroPrincess]

58. Besides we'll all get new shoes now that our buds in Saudi

Arabia are going to crack down on those evvvil terrorists. You know "the prince" (Saudi not the hailed Purple Rain dude) made a four minute announcement.

How can Islam be a violent religion when we are such close friends to Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Nooo, don't look at the Bin Laden behind the curtain. :P

[Az]

61. A person's religion is a reflection of the socialized beliefs

The doctrine may often vary from what a particular sect believes in. They may find ways to justify their beliefs within the doctrine. As the works behind religions are often lengthy you can effectively find what you want in them.

Recognition of this is vital. The spirit and intent of a religion is known by its people. Not its doctrine. Christians are a perfect example of this. From the doctrine of the bible great benevelance and great horror have spread. You can find support for both in the bible if you seek it. Likewise you can find both in the Koran if you seek it.

Here is a set of passages from the second chapter (the Cow) that demonstrate this problem of interpretation.

190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

While the bulk of the of the verses seem to council understanding and compassion there is the problematic clause "And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah." Some might interpret this as a call to keep on the enemy until they accept Allah.

There are frequent references to destroying unbelievers in the Koran. But they are typically tempered with offering peace if they do. Interpretation becomes a matter of what is set before them. If a stronger dominant culture presses itself upon them they may well see it as a nonaccepting assault on Islam and will rush to its defense with terrible violence as their means.