A very thought-provoking quote from Clinton's book

[starroute]

No -- I haven't read it myself. But Atrios quoted a passage this morning that just explains so much about what is going on in this country:

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2004_06_20_atrios_archive.html#108799439954758954

"Simpson laughed at how willing the 'elitist' press was to swallow anything negative about small, rural places like Wyoming or Arkansas and made an interesting observation: 'You know, before you were elected, we Republicans believed the press was liberal. Now we have a more sophisticated view. They are liberal in a way. Most of them voted for you, but they think more like your right-wing critics do, and that's much more important.' When I asked him to explain, he said, 'Democrats like you and Sullivan get into government to help people. The right-wing extremists don't think government can do much to improve on human nature, but they like power. So does the press. And since you're President, they both get power the same way, by hurting you.' "


Right there is the *real* difference in a nutshell between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats believe in human nature. They believe in people and they believe people can become better. Republicans don't, so when they look at the world, all they see is rival groups vying for power.

This explains why Republicans are prepared to lie and pull dirty tricks in the name of winning. If power is everything and ideals are an illusion, why not do whatever you can get away with?

It also explains a lot of things that have gone downhill in our culture over the last 30 years or so. For example, there was a thread the other day about Ray Bradbury badmouthing Michael Moore, in which somebody asked, "But hasn't science fiction always been conservative?" And the answer is no, it hasn't. With rare exceptions, the science fiction writers of the 50's and 60's were liberals or radicals, and their stories were about changing the world for the better. (The original Star Trek is a prime example of that sort of optimism.) But after 1980, science fiction increasingly became a literature of future wars and power struggles, set in a world that is in no way better than our own.


Our culture badly needs to get its idealism back -- but the question is how. Cynics always seem to be able to make fun of idealists, to make them look like wimps or patsies, to present themselves as more knowing and more realistic. We need idealists who are able to stand up and say, "I have seen human nature at its worst, but also at its best, and I believe that the best will prevail. I believe in the future and I believe in what we can make of ourselves."

Anyone with me on this?

[Catch22Dem]

1. You're correct

That is a wonderful quote. Bill is correct also.

[ocean girl]

2. Thanks - what a great quote!

Wish we had a real President again!

[newyawker99]

7. Hi ocean girl!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[ocean girl]

8. thanks for the welcome!!

I've found a new home.

[Cat Atomic]

3. That really is an interesting point. If you think government can't help,

then why would you enter politics? I can only assume the answer would be 'power and money'. That's about all that's left.

[1monster]

11. Love you avatar!!!

:D

[Zan_of_Texas]

4. Starroute -- good thoughts. As usual, coming from you!

I would quibble only a bit. I think some conservatives just used to think that GOVERNMENT was bad, by its nature.

And, to the extent that power is concentrated and taxes are raised without oversight or transparency or fairness, I can see their point. Gotta have that stuff that makes it fair.

I think that the Karl Rovians, including the earlier Attwater, are outright Machiavellians, who believe that winning is everything, and it doesn't matter how you do it or who you hurt. They have proven they have no respect for law. They are extremists, out of touch with reality. They have created fake boogeymen to attack, allowing them to exert their PNAC plans for American empire (a more naked American empire than ever before).

So, some are in it for power, some for greed. And, some for ideology. I've long said that in a fight between radical fanatic Muslims and radical fanatic Christian fundamentalists or neocons, I have no dog in that fight.

Where do we get idealism back? I don't think it's lost at all, I just think it gets papered over by the corporate media, except for the occasionally over sweet and sentimental story they run at the end of the news.

I do think our idealism is easily misdirected or dissipated -- just my opinion, but most well intended people want to rescue the individuals hurt by the mess we're in; I would rather prevent or fix the entire mess. It seems daunting but, for instance, just converting the 25% of the military budget that is lost and unaccounted for to human needs would balance the budget of all the state governments, with $20 million left over.

Reminds me of the story of the town and the babies in the river.

There is a loud hue and cry! Everyone is calling the townspeople to run to the river. There are babies floating down the river. Soon, the people have created a human chain, and they are grabbing the babies, and bringing them to shore.

But, here comes Alex. He starts away from the townspeople, running upstream. Joe calls out, "Alex, what in blazes are you doing?! We need every hand over here, grabbing the babies out of the river."

Alex replies, "I am running upstream to find out who the hell is throwing these babies IN the river!"

[Dogmudgeon]

5. Good points, all

The remark about the political persuasion of science fiction writers, though, might be expanded on. A large number of them ARE quite conservative, and it goes back to right after WWII. Their form of conservatism was more like Goldwater Republicanism or proto-Libertarianism, the idea that initiative was good, government was an inhibition, and people ought to be rewarded for their intelligence, savvy, and luck. Robert Heinlein's work is representative of it, though Heinlein was also a socially radical thinker. Ron Hubbard's science fiction and his early Scientology works also reflect this point of view, both the free-men-and-markets bravado and the extremely socially progressive agenda. Asimov was always a lefty, but got along well in that crowd because, right or left, they all believed in an optimistic view of human nature.

Bradbury had long been a radical, but about a decade ago, I believe he was seduced by the free-markets muse.

Based on my admittedly flawed observations of several subcultures, including the world of S-F fandom, I think a major social re-alignment is going to hit soon, and maybe has started already. So it's no wonder that so many people seem confused. We're all looking for new rules and folkways to hold on to.

The real Devil is the idea that it's good to hold power over people, to punish them and to run their lives on a whim, which is a major, unspoken, part of the neo-Con agenda -- "It's good to be King". Even the paleo-Cons have begun to distance themselves from that theme, because it's NOT "good to be King," not in a nation of (small-R) republicans.

Cynicism flourishes because it is an intellectually cowardly stance. A cynic is never really wrong, and when s/he's wrong at all, it's a pleasent surprise. Having been hurt, they assume the worst. They have no more courage left to commit to an ideal, and more's the tragedy. A healthy, growing society will have very little time for cynics -- for irony, yes, but for out-and-out cynicism, not.

--bkl

[AlCzervik]

6. That was interesting.

I think it all comes down to...Republicans see everything in black and white except their own hypocrisy and democrats understand that life works in shades of gray.

[peacetalksforall]

9. A rare thing - a Republican who spoke the truth.

I am often listening with my mouth open in diebelief when I hear the selfishness and arrogance that comes out of the mouths of the right. Typically, they call Dems what they are guilty of. They say we come from the 'ME TOO' generation. Well, that is them.

[2Design]

10. WOW this is what Christ and God were teaching....this is what they do

We need idealists who are able to stand up and say, "I have seen human nature at its worst, but also at its best, and I believe that the best will prevail. I believe in the future and I believe in what we can make of ourselves."


God/Christ/goddess/ are able to see the worse in us, forgive, and believe in us NO MATTER what......now what a wonderful God message this is....

This is real spirituality....IMHO

[2Design]

12. this is just so profound... I can't get over it....

In star wars, the force be with you,
luke skywalker dealing with the force of evil.....hatred.... not wanting to succuum.....

Believing that there is good in EVERYONE, and that we can make a difference....idealism, hope,,,,,

working together we truly can make a difference...it isn't about power or the abuse of power...but using the power and the energy of power for good ...for humanity....for helping others....

all this wasted energy in iraq is creating more evil....and it is being created by evil people.....who seem beyond help....who think they are christian but instead they are trying to be powerful...

that same energy if used for good in all these poor nations...around the world.....could help everyone rise up ....to be better....by believing in them....by helping them believe in themselves.....

self - esteem...

so many that I have read of RW are against teachings for the good of self-esteem.....and yet this hope....this feeling in control....

having the locus of control ....be internal....helps people feel their own power....which is the spirit/force within/ki/ so many wonderful things.....that ability to hear the spirit....truly hear...

thanks for this....this was profoundly spiritual....

[Eric J in MN]

13. believing in checks-and-balances,

Being suspicous of concentrated power, believing in checks-and-balances, auditing, etc. are comon liberal values.

Electronic voting machines with no paper ballots would be fine to someone who assumes that voting machine companies are honest.

[2Design]

14. sorry you have me going with this

your statement
With rare exceptions, the science fiction writers of the 50's and 60's were liberals or radicals, and their stories were about changing the world for the better.

that is a major difference in the movies and tv shows today.....so few are out to make the world a better place....

optimism is missing....in our movies and in our lives......
hope.....