Chicago '68 in N.Y.?

[TexasProgresive]

Going to NYC this summer- wear your flack jacket and bring your gas mask -the Storm troopers will be out in force to hurt you.

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/Stories/0,1413,101%257E9694%257E2226275,00.html?search=filter

By Joel Stonington

GREAT BARRINGTON

AUTHORITIES AND protesters are on a collision course aimed at the Republican National Convention in New York City this summer. Fifteen groups have applied for marches or rallies of over 10,000 people and one group, United for Peace and Justice, has applied for a rally of 250,000. No permits have been granted. Spokesman for United for Peace and Justice, Bill Dobbs, called the refusal to grant the permit "an effort to derail the whole protest." With the immense number of possible issues to protest under the rubric "No to the Bush Agenda," thousands of people working on disparate areas of activism -- the environment, social justice, education, foreign policy, health care, fiscal responsibility, etc. -- will be in the streets whether or not they have a permit.

[wtmusic]

1. S'gonna git ugly

n/t

[skooooo]

2. ...people won't fight the cops.

This is not like '68. People identify more with the public servants who suffered tragic losses during 9/11. They will not get belligerant toward the police. The cops aren't sympathetic toward the republicans anyway.

[Radical Activist]

10. but the cops will fight the people anyway

It doesn't matter if people act up. The cops will declare it an unlawful assembley and start using tear gas, bashing heads and so on. Haven't you been to any major protests lately? It happened at both conventions in 2000, and cops have been even more agressive against protestors since 911.

[tom_paine]

73. Correct, the "Miami Model" will be in force

It wouldn't surprise me if the beating were used for entertainment purposes a la "COPS".

Would any of the benighted Imperial Subjects of Amerika object to this, or would they stuff their faces while smiling ear to ear watching people standing up for THEIR freedom get savagely beaten?

To quote Vlad Strangefeld: "You betcha."

[G_j]

82. I wish more had payed attention

to the "Miami Model"
**It is not about police as individuals. It is about the new "crowd control" policies being implemented in America.

from http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=945724#top

----------
www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7538538.htm

Judge: I saw police commit felonies

A judge who said he witnessed some of the anti-free trade protests complains in open court about how police handled the demonstrations.
By AMY DRISCOLL

A judge presiding over the cases of free trade protesters said in court that he saw ''no less than 20 felonies committed by police officers'' during the November demonstrations, adding to a chorus of complaints about police conduct.

Judge Richard Margolius, 60, made the remarks in open court last week, saying he was taken aback by what he witnessed while attending the protests.

''Pretty disgraceful what I saw with my own eyes. And I have always supported the police during my entire career,'' he said, according to a court transcript. ``This was a real eye-opener. A disgrace for the community.''

In the transcript, he also said he may have to remove himself from any additional cases involving arrests made during the Free Trade Area of the Americas summit.

''I probably would have been arrested myself if it had not been for a police officer who recognized me,'' said the judge, who wears his hair in a graying ponytail.

...more..
============================================
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/1219-08.htm

Reuters
FTAA Protests: Amnesty Says Miami Police May Have Broken UN Laws
=============================================
----
A veteran activist finds much to fear, but also bits of hope, after being jailed in Miami.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17342
------------------
St. Petersburg Times: Miami Crowd Control Would Do Tyrant Proud

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1130-07.htm

Miami police Chief John Timoney must be mighty proud of the social order he maintained during the Free Trade Area of the Americas summit a couple of weeks ago in Miami - sort of the way Saddam Hussein was proud of quieting dissension in his country.
--------------------
Arresting The Future
Tom Hayden, AlterNet
Even as FTAA protestors and trade ministers poured out of town in droves, the city's Robo-Cops continued to demonstrate the 'Miami model' of suppression -- with pepper spray, rubber bullets and drawn weapons.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17246
--------------------
Information Control:
The 'Miami Model' used during the anti-FTAA protests represents a new police strategy whose aim is to control not just the streets, but also the story told by the media.
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17293
------------------
Starhawk's Miami Journals,
www.starhawk.org/activism/activism-writings/miami_journals.html
------------------

photos
http://www.hulla-balloo.com/ftaapics

[tom_paine]

90. "not paying attention" is how we got INTO this mess!

And, of course, it is still going on with stil a majority (though slimmer) of the Imperial Subjects of Amerika.

I am just as guilty as anyone, for the time period prior to 2000.

[LoZoccolo]

3. Storm troopers?

Man I just hope there isn't a bunch of teenage anarchist black bloc kids trying to start something useless that could be plastered all over the place as "protesters are attacking the men and women who saved peoples' lives on 9/11".

[noahmijo]

4. Are you referring to the NYPD as "storm troopers?" or...

who? I think it's rather low to cast that name on the NYPD as a whole. Sorry if this offends those of you radical leftists who hate all cops no matter what, but bear in mind there are many in the NYPD who hate Bush and although they may be assigned to keep the peace and put up barriers they will be secretly agreeing with our cause, which is not to wreak havoc on the streets with violence but to make a loud statement that we're not tolerating that 9/11 and New Yorker's pain will not be politicized.

I'm sorry but I remember seeing the footage of past protests of punks sneaking up to the police horses and hitting their heads with sticks and spitting at the police. Those people deserve the ass kicking they got. It's one thing if a cop starts harassing you for no reason, but throwing on a ski mask and attempting to start a fight with a cop should garner no sympathy if you find yourself getting thrown into the back of a squad car.

This protest should be loud and peaceful and should attempt to make the statement that we are sick and tired of Bush and cronies using real workers real Americans like those in the FDNY and NYPD who risked their lives to save as many people as they could on 9/11.

[skooooo]

6. I think you'll find few "radical leftists"...

...here who hate the cops. Despite that one post.

[noahmijo]

8. I'm sure there will be many at the protest..

and they'll be among the same clowns who will protesting the DNC convention in Boston. The same idiots who put up stuff like this

http://blackteasociety.org/propaganda/Anybodyb.pdf

What happens then is the rw media makes it sound like every legitimate protestor is in the same league as the few radicals who were their just to stir up trouble, thus putting a blunt point on the whole reason behind a true bonafide protest.

To me a protest is about making your voice heard not attempting to stir up violence and hate.

[G_j]

17. while you're at it

be aware of agent provocateurs, you can bet they'll be there too "attempting to stir up violence and hate". It's not only the RW media that sometimes gets duped.

[LoZoccolo]

22. 'chyea no shit.

I wonder how Mr. I Just Call Them Pigs thinks about serving as a reinforcement to these agent provocateurs.

[SOS]

92. agent provocateurs

will be in the crowds. No question. Just remember the recount "protest" in Florida which turned out to be Republican staffers shipped in from DC.
They will out in force, breaking windows and posing for the Fox News cameras.

[smirkymonkey]

106. Maybe we should protest the media outlets here in NYC

as well - kill two birds w/ one stone (figure of speech, I am not advocating violence in any way.)

Bring your signs!

[DrWeird]

12. I just call them "pigs."

But stormtroopers would be good too, since they'll enforcing these nazi, unamerican "free speech zones."

I saw plenty of footage of the seattle WTO riots. Never saw any protestors abusing horses, but I did see plenty of stormtroopers abusing the people they were supposed to serve and protect.

As a wise man once said, "fuck the police."

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

19. gangbanger with an AK-47?

Was this before or after he planted the AK-47 on the gangbangers* body.

*gangbanger- police lingo for 'black kid'.

[noahmijo]

25. Uh no actually

Among us Latinos, who know gangbangers, who have dealt with gangbangers (unlike you middle class gringos who think you know what's what among the world of criminals) we refer to gangbangers for what they are, for what they do, and for what they stand for.

You know what it's not even worth arguing with someone as far gone as you and that other moron who made the statement of calling all cops pigs. Go on and piss on all police if you want, just don't think for one moment that people on the right just love it when they can tape idiots like you spewing this shit, and then portray it as "the voice of the left"

There are many scummy cops out there I've dealt with many, I've got stories that would make you probably hate cops more than you do now, but I have known some good ones, noble men who would not think of their families while risking their lives to save your sorry ass from getting carved or shot up.

[DrWeird]

27. Ah, the "few bad apples" line.

Where have I heard that before?

[LoZoccolo]

34. This guy is uselessly showing off, let's just ignore him.

Showing quite a bit of naivety too.

[MISSDem]

112. Are you saying that middle class beaners know whats what but

middle class gringoes don't? Now why is that?

[JSJ]

50. dad a cop? n/t

[FlemingsGhost]

20. I was there. The police panicked, and threw down.

I think the sheer numbers spooked them. They were losing control and essentially created the very thing they were supposed to prevent.

Black bloc was rather naughty, but didn't really start bustin' shit up until the chaos began.

That's what America saw on their television screens.

(edited for additional thought)

[DrWeird]

23. No kidding.

I was in Bellingham during the whole mess. Watched it live and spoke with many of my friends who were there.

I'll never forget the guy who was walking out of the grocery store with two bags of groceries and the pig comes up and kicks him right in the crotch, no reason whatsoever. And the two girls who were getting in their car to leave, a pig comes over and knocks on the window, the girls roll it down, then the pig sprays them in the face with pepper spray.

Fucking savages.

[GarySeven]

84. I was there too

It was bloody and awful -- but it revealed to the nation how tenuous is our right to free expression and was a valuable lesson. I hate to say it, but maybe we need new blood on the streets (literally and figuratively) to teach this lesson again to America. I still have scars from a nightstick; I'm ready for some more. BRING IT ON!!

[JSJ]

49. exactamente!

Paramilitary cops have been the bane of peaceful protestors as long as there's been a ruling elite. They- the 'law enforcement community'- deserve no sympathy from anyone actively trying to unseat fascists from their undeserved positions of authority. And that includes paramilitary as well as drug cops. Both do the bidding of people many here tout as their adversaries. What sense does it make to offer up defenses for the head-clubbers before the 'fun' even starts.

My sympathies will remain with the anarchists and other frightening (to liberals and of course, fascists) aparitions of our impending revolution.

[Radical Activist]

13. The NYPD answers to the Mayor

That's who'll they'll take orders from. Maybe they'll be secretly agreeing with protestors when they bash their heads in, but who cares?

I'm sorry but I've been to the protests where peaceful people are attacked unprovoked by police in riot gear for no reason. I've also seen the national media ignore that fact, and use a very small number of violent protestors to justify much more widespread violence on the part of police.

By denying the permits the Mayor of New York has decided that he wants to use violence to stop the protests. That's exactly what it means.

[noahmijo]

16. I didn't say ALL cops were good

What I said was it's unfair to cast a term like "storm trooper" on all of them.

[Radical Activist]

21. It doesn't matter if the cops are good or bad

It matters who they take orders from, and in this case its a Republican mayor who wants to stop the protests.

Of course, I think you're right that its unfair to call all cops storm troopers, but that's probably the role they will be forced to play during the convention.

Its too bad their union doesn't get involved and try to stop this disaster waiting to happen.

[noahmijo]

29. I can't argue there...

We'll see what happens but you're right orders for teargas and things like that usually come from the top...

[LoZoccolo]

30. There's no security role at all?

Even just to prevent FReepers from attacking protesters?

Come on.

I was one of the people that shut down Lake Shore Drive when the war started. They let us have the northbound lanes and go all the way to around Michigan and Chicago (and some FReepers got in fights with some people, not many, but some). OK that's great. What wouldn'tve been great is if it would have gone farther down and people ended up looting all the junk on Michigan Avenue and breaking windows and stuff, so they stopped us. No I didn't like later when they arrested 700 people including people that weren't in the protest (but still, there were like 10,000 of us - that means 9000 of us didn't get arrested, not really what they'd want to have happen if they were just out to suppress free speech), but shit would have probably turned real bad if we were allowed to go south of Chicago Ave. I don't think what the cops did was good but I don't think all the protesters had the noblest intentions either. Most people appreciate that kind of complexity when assessing a situation, but you don't find a lot of them on Indymedia and stuff.

[Radical Activist]

36. Chicago learned from '68

The people running the Chicago police department are fairly liberal compared to '68 or compared to the current Mayor of New York. I had friends at that protest, and friends in the Chicago police dept and from what I heard the protest you're talking about was handled fairly well.

The fact that the Republican Mayor of New York wants to deny the right of anyone to protest sends a pretty big signal that the police will have a very different attitude in NY than the force in Chicago this year. We're dealing with a mayor and President who do not respect the right to assemble or exercise speech. Just see what happens...

[FlemingsGhost]

5. Please ... This is not 1968, and New York is not Chicago.

We are smarter and better organized. (Thanks to debacles like the '68 DNC.)

No ones talking violence, except the RW spin machine.

[skooooo]

7. Perhaps the Democratic Convention in July...

...will be a sign of what NY will be like? What do you think?

[FlemingsGhost]

9. In what respect ... Security presence?

I simply don't see a million folks protesting the DNC.

The RNC however, is a distinct possibility. That makes it a completely different animal for police and security personnel.

[noahmijo]

11. I don't think the DNC protest will be nearly on the same level as

The RNC protest, however you're going to find the usual gang of nuts who dream of an anarachist utopia hanging around I bet, but I doubt it'll get much if any coverage.

[Radical Activist]

26. Police violence got little coverage at 2000 Dem convention

Although there is a good deal of video evidence of unprovoked attacks against those protesting the DNC. I'm sure the same thing will happen this year.

However, the RNC could be a much, much bigger disaster if the city continues to deny permits. There are basically two choices. Allow orderly marches by groups who can organize something, or have a riot. The city of New York is opting for a riot, and the police will be ready to start one if they need to.

[noahmijo]

31. They should just allow the permits

I agree the city is just setting themselves up for immediate riots by denying the basic right of protest.

At least if the protest was "legalized" I think the chances of full scale riots would drop.

[G_j]

35. 2000 Dem convention, as a matter of fact

the LAPD opened fire with rubber bullets on a permitted Rage Against The Machine concert causing a major panic situation while blocking escape routes. There were many lawsuits stemming from this.

The 2000 Repug convention in Philly was probably worse with scores of pre-emptive arrests and destruction of puppets.

[Radical Activist]

38. "destruction of puppets"

Ok, that was just funny. Some serious stuff happened at the DNC in 2000, but talking about destruction of puppets at the RNC makes it all sounds silly. lol

[G_j]

47. not really

it may sound funny, but it was a serious incident. Before the convention the police raided a warehouse where people were making signs and (giant) puppets. They destroyed the signs and puppets (filling dumsters) and arrested everyone keeping them in jail for the duration of the convention. The incident prompted an LA judge to impose an injunction on the LAPD at the DNC to prevent them from doing the same thing.

[pinto]

14. memo to Mr. Storington; please keep your historical fantasy to your self.

memo to Mr. Stonington; please keep your historical fantasies to your self. The neocons have already shown us where theory in action can lead. I don't want a future remade in anyone's perception of the past. Thanks, pinto.

[Kahuna]

87. Ditto. He must want us to lose like we did in '68.

I'm sure.

[Radical Activist]

18. This means Bloomberg wants violence

Denying a permit provides and automatic excuse for the police to declare a group of people an unlawful assembley. That's all the excuse the police/swat teams/national gaurd will need to start attacking peaceful protestors. You'd think they would learn from Chicago in '68. Unless the city of New York changes course you can be sure there will be violent police riots and it will all be blamed on a small number of violent protestors that could have been dealt with in other ways.

Its amazing how much the media and public always side with the police and refuse to recognize abuse of police power at protests. Protestors will be attacked for no reason, and no one will care. At least that's how it has happened since 911.

[FlemingsGhost]

24. Nonsense. (n/t)

Dems

[Radical Activist]

28. Gosh, what a powerful argument

:eyes: Care to elaborate?

[FlemingsGhost]

39. First, Bloomberg is not playing ball with the RNC.

There was some flap over meeting with the convention coordinators last week. City officials are making it clear that the convention is turning out to be a huge pain-in-the-ass.

Also, who wants to provoke a riot in which parts of New York will literally be destroyed? It is an expensive proposition. A political and PR nightmare for a city that is finally settled into a state of normalcy, and a mayor who is up for re-election next year.

Finally, if the numbers are there, which I think it will, provoking a million people is just plain assinine. The police are smarter than that, you know.

(edited to include additional thought)

[Radical Activist]

43. It worked in Miami

and that was done with federal help. What kind of attitude would lead one to deny protest permitts? We're dealing with people who don't respect basic rights and are afraid of losing control. Denying the permits will provoke a riot without question.
What else do you think they plan to do? How do you declare illegal the one million people who show up to protest and not have violence occur?

[FlemingsGhost]

44. How many folks showed up in Miami?

Apples and Oranges.

[Radical Activist]

45. NY will be even bigger and harder to control

so again, how do you deny a group of protestors that size a place to march and not expect violence to occur?

[FlemingsGhost]

51. We will not be denied.

That's just the point, and they know it. Each side will make concessions, and both will have their say. The GOP do not want their showcase overshadowed. New York wants a peaceful summer.

Your vision is rooted in fear and speculation, and shows little imagination as to why folks are assembling. I'm not saying there won't be trouble, but the insistance that Bloomberg and the NYPD want to provoke a battle is ridiculous, and probably a little bit of wishful thinking.

Peace.

[smirkymonkey]

109. I don't know what's up with Bloomberg these days,

but he is alienating the left here in NYC and the Repubs in Washington (see below). A violent situation could really mess him up politically.

http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20040622/localnews/692714.html

WASHINGTON -- Bad blood continues to boil between New York City officials and Republicans in Washington, leading to the abrupt cancellation of a Monday meeting at Mayor Michael Bloomberg's home with national party fund-raisers.

Bloomberg had been scheduled to host Thomas Reynolds, National Republican Congressional Committee chairman, and Bob Ney, co-chair of the NRCC's incumbent retention committee, at a lunch with wealthy politically active New Yorkers.

The fissure comes at a particularly sensitive time in the relationship between the Republican Bloomberg and national Republicans, two months before the party visits New York City to renominate President Bush.

He's in between a rock and a hard place. He's probably wondering if there is any way of getting out of his committment to have the Repub Convention in NYC right about now. Either way, it's looking like his political career may come crashing to an end.

[hang a left]

32. I was 8 years old in 1968.

I remember coming home from school and my mom and aunt were crying because Bobby Kennedy had been shot and killed. I don't really remember anything else about that time. So I googled and read about Chicago in 1968.

No one was killed in Chicago. I hope no one gets killed in NY. The number of protestors that will be in NY don't even come close to Chicago 1968. It could get hairy with 300,000 protesters without permits, no?

[Renew Deal]

33. The protesters are going to show up.

Hopefully they will get their permits. It might get raw if they don't.

[sleepystudent]

37. I live in NYC...

and I am telling you, this better not fucking happen. I am seriously thinking about just leaving town during this time, because I just don't want to deal with this. And I am far more worried about who is coming into town with romantic visions of re-enacting the 1968 riots and interested in rioting for its own sake than I am worried about the police. I was at the anti-war protests last year and the police were very respectful. Yes we were herded into a narrow space and too many streets were cordoned off, but that was not their call-they just enforced the rules handed down and they did it well. The crowd showed them respect and we got it in return. Except for that asshole that apparently punched a police horse and got the beatdown he deserved.

The police and the 9/11 familes have applied for protest permits themselves during the convention and I am tempted to say that they are the only ones I want to see protesting during this time. Please don't trash New York-it will just piss off people inclined to support your POV.

I swear, it seems like some idiots are headed up here because they want the police to hit them and will do anything to make it happen.

[noahmijo]

41. Damn Straight

Couldn't have said it better.

I keep saying this over and over you wanna make a statement? great, but these masked assholes who show up for nothing more than to cause trouble look like jack-offs and guess what? the rw media is more than happy to show a picture of people like that idiot who beat the horse and all but caption it as saying "your typical liberal protestor"

This does not sit well with fence sitters and average America.

[Eloriel]

96. You keep refusing to "get it" that some if not all those

"masked idiots" can be and often are agents provocateurs -- people who are NOT part of the protest (they're covert ops, whether police, FBI or other) but pretend to be protesters, and whose function it is to stir up or "provoke" trouble. This does several things: it discredits the movement (that they're not even part of), it gives police a reason to crack down by cracking heads and arresting people, it discourages people from attending future protests, and it can destabilize a whole movement. IOW: from their point of view, what's not to like?

There were agents provocateurs in Seattle, Genoa, no doubt Miami, and many, many other places for a very long time.

Before blaming protesters for ANYthing untoward, my strong advice would be to be damned sure you know exactly who you're blaming.

[sleepystudent]

105. So none of them...

could be people who actually do believe in the cause and are angered and pumped up and just do something stupid? All of them are plants? So every riot or protest that has gotten out of hand has been the work of a plant? Ok. But I also hear someone trying desperately to protect themselves from the idea that someone who agrees with them politically could do something so destructive or stupid.

Guess what? They could just be protestors who are acting up. The simplest explanation is usually correct. And anyway, it's 2004. Perception is reality.

[NewEmanuelGoldstein]

107. The majority

Of people going to NYC to protest the convention wish to do so peacefully, I believe.

Now should they be denied the right to protest because a few people, plants, or otherwise want to provoke violence? I don't think the majority should suffer because the minority "might" act up. In the past going with the minority caused Prohibition and Bush 2K.

People can only control themselves, and should not be denied permits to protest or the right to protest because of what others (a minority of others) "might" do. It's 2004. Reality is reality.

[sleepystudent]

111. I agree with you...

Or at least I am hopeful that you are right. And like I said I think the permit situation is a raw deal. I just don't think guaranteeing violence is the right response to it. People should control themselves for the city's good and for the good of the causes they believe in.

And I still think perception is reality today. Sorry.

[Guaranteed]

42. If they refuse to issue permits, we're

damned well going to have a protest anyway. And it's going to get messy.

I'm an American, and I demand that my rights be respected.

[sleepystudent]

46. I don't understand...

Why does it * have * to "get messy"? And saying "It's going to get messy" sounds like a threat. I think a too large percentage of the protestors are determined to have it "get messy" whether they have a permit or not. For too many of them "getting messy" is the whole point, not the issues they are allegedly trying to bring to light.

And I live here and I have the right to not have my life disrupted or put in danger by all these idiots coming in for a few days. You guys are just as sickening as the Republicans in my mind.

[skooooo]

48. Weren't the war protests...

...pretty peaceful? Why should this be any different. I'm sure there will be some troublespots, but I don't think anyone -- the mayor or the cops, or the vast majority of the people want a bunch of trauma.

Call me naive, I guess.

[sleepystudent]

52. Naive!

j/k. Sort of. The problem is the anti-war protests were taking place all over the country, all over the world. There was no one target. And the war protestors were mostly New Yorkers or from the Tri-State area. Also, yes, they got a permit and the RNC protestors, so far, have not. Also, do not underestimate the anger that the RNC and Bush have whipped up and this will be the one time to express it-in the media capital of the world.

I seriously doubt the cops want trouble, as I said before they are protesting the RNC too. But I am seriously apprehensive about the protestors coming into town.

[skooooo]

53. groups from Europe?

I can't remember where...maybe here in the DU forums I read about groups of Europeans coming over to protest as well.

Ok, that's it, I'll hide out in my hotel.

LOL....

[G_j]

54. the permit situation is the real problem n/t

[hang a left]

56. OMG. Foil out.

I just thought of something. What if this is a practice for crowd containment or dissent disruption? Because if they steal in 2004 you will have this kind of demonstration all over the country. They won't have permits either.

[Guaranteed]

62. It's practice for us, too. nt

[Guaranteed]

55. Have a look at the 1st Amendment.

We have the right to peacably assemble. If that right is denied, all bets are off. We're angry enough as it is.

[Baltimoreboy]

58. We don't have a right to peaceably assemble anywhere we want

And if NY turns bad and ugly, it will be blamed on protestors, not police and millions of swing voters will vote against us.

[Stone_Spirits]

59. so you advocate

no protests?

[Baltimoreboy]

60. There will be protests. It is our job to keep control.

And that is what I advocate. We should encourage everyone to dress up, not down. To look like middle class Americans as much as possible. The protests should have their own security whose job it is to keep things under control BEFORE it ever gets to police.

(Edited for typo.)

[Stone_Spirits]

66. that is fine

but you can't control what people wear, and without permits peaceful citizens can be viewed as law breakers. I hope people come anyway and conduct themselves with dignity and I trust that is what will happen. The worries about "violent" demonstrators is entirely unfounded and inflammatory in my opinion.

[Baltimoreboy]

68. I can dream, can't I?

To me, there's only two ways to spin security for this event. Either let things happen and blame the police which will hurt us or take control of the concept and make it clear that we are doing everything in our power to be good citizens.

[Guaranteed]

71. What might make people violent is infringing on their rights.

That's what needs to be kept in mind.

[Stone_Spirits]

72. even then

what might be portrayed as "violent" would probably be refusing to disperse or crossing a barrier for instance.

[sleepystudent]

89. Have you heard of...

MLK, Joseph Abernathy, Gandhi, non-violent protests, hmmm? No? Well then please look it up before you get here and tear up this city. Thanks.

This whole "You infringe on my rights and I will get violent" makes you and these people sound like children. And I don't think it will take much for some of these people to get violent. Just don't be shocked if the cops respond in kind and get the support of the public and the average New Yorker over you.

[IrateCitizen]

94. And have you heard of Bull Connor, the KKK etc.

As I seem to recall, many of Gandhi's nonviolent protest were savagely attacked by the authorities, with many people seriously injured and some killed.

Quite often, even if protestors do not want to be violent, violence is forced upon them by the authorities on the receiving end of the protest.

I've seen enough shots of nonviolent protest at the 1999 WTO protests in Seattle being responded to with police violence to know that this is true. I've seen shots of police ripping protestors' hands from their faces to spray pepper spray directly into their eyes when the protestors were doing nothing more than sitting cross-legged on the ground.

The very act of protest is quite often used to INCITE a violent response from the authorities, in order to de-legitimize the authorities in the process. After all, when most people are eventually confronted with the truth of non-violent people being attacked and violently beaten, they will come around to siding with the nonviolent side.

This is discussed in depth in the book Social Power and Political Freedom by Gene Sharp, the father of the field of Peace Studies.

[sleepystudent]

95. oh boy...

here we go with the delusions of grandeur.

[Karenina]

99. I find the level of disrespect

in this post EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE. :spank:

[IrateCitizen]

102. How 'bout you come down off your soapbox for a moment...

... and actually debate someone on this topic?

What precisely do you see the object of nonviolent protest and/or noncooperation to be? Do you think that the whole idea of it is simply to "be heard"?

Is that all that Gandhi wanted, to "be heard" by the occupying British?

Is that all MLK, Bayard Rustin and Ralph Abernathy wanted, to "be heard" by the white supremacists holding power in the South?

No. Their objective was to affect CHANGE. And they knew that, in order to do this, they had to spark a CONFRONTATION. They could employ violent means -- in which they would certainly lose, because the authority against which they were rebelling had a near-monopoly on violence compared to them, along with the fact that they would alienate public opinion. Or, as they decided, they could employ nonviolent means, in which the predictable responses of violence by the authorities would actually serve to legitimize the stance of the protestors over time, provided that the struggle was maintained, and intensified, with each display of violence on the part of the authorities.

I have no illusions of grandeur. I know fully well that I am just one man, with very limited power in my own right. But I also know that the only way to truly undermine a corrupt source of power and authority is to refuse to cooperate with it and stand against it in creative, nonviolent ways. And if enough people commit themselves to such an undertaking, then victory is only a matter of time.

I'm sorry if this offends your sensibilities. And before you talk about it not being my city that will be "trashed", I happen to work in Midtown Manhattan, only one block away from MSG. But a true understanding of how power really works, and the best methods of undermining it, is something I often see severely lacking on these boards.

So, I'm giving you one more chance to offer forth a response of substance. Will you take it? Or do you prefer instead to engage in childish put-down games and such instead? The choice is yours.

[sleepystudent]

104. Fine...

first off, to the person who is offended by what I said, tough. I get offended and pissed off on this board all the time and I just deal with it. Learn to deal with it yourself. Get some fresh air and calm down-we all have our opinions...

*So, I'm giving you one more chance to offer forth a response of substance.*

Wow, I am so grateful-who knew you were the gatekeeper here.


I *know* that the goal of non violent protest is change. And I do think that the protestors should get a better deal than the one they have now. But I resent this idea that if they don't, violent protests are guaranteed. That's a threat. And the NYPD is not the enemy-they are protesting too. There is a group of protestors, probably not you, that are all about provocation. They want this to get violent and they are going to play right into the right wing's hands.And they are not cops. And since we don't run the media, they are the ones that are going to get on the news as the face of the anti-Republican protests, not you. Know that. They are going to be heard, not you, if you don't check yourself.

Bottom line-this has a huge possibility of being a disaster in a year where we have created new and effective ways of creating change and it could backfire horribly. And it won't all be the fault of "the man" no matter how much one wishes it were.

*Why* does it have to be violent and messy? *Why* are people "promising" that? Is it necessary?

[IrateCitizen]

108. Are you familiar at all with the "Miami model"?

If you want to know why people are promising that things will get messy, 99% of it can be attributed to the Miami model.

The Miami model refers to the paramilitary tactics that were used by the Miami PD under the direction of Chief John Timoney (who is the same person as the infamous Chief of the Philly PD during the 2000 RNC convention) under which completely law-abiding, nonviolent protestors -- along with innocent bystanders -- were physically assaulted without provocation and arrested without cause by the Miami PD. The funding from this exercise in force and intimidation was actually provided from the $87 billion bill for Iraq, if you can believe that one.

I share your lack of patience for protestors intent on engaging in violent tactics, primarily because they are wholly self-defeating in the face of an opponent that has a virtual monopoly on violence, and they only serve to legitimize the violence used by the state. And as much as I hope things don't degenerate to that level, we may very well be coming close to the time at which we will go to protests almost expecting to be beaten, as Rep. John Lewis often recounts his experiences in the Civil Rights movement.

And the NYPD is not the enemy-they are protesting too. There is a group of protestors, probably not you, that are all about provocation. They want this to get violent and they are going to play right into the right wing's hands.And they are not cops.

First off, I am well aware of the families of 9/11 and cops and firemen who will be protesting, and I think we should respect them above all others throughout our efforts. Second, I am well aware of the "black bloc" anarchists, and they are a quite annoying minority. But if you think that agents provocateur will not be employed, you are seriously mistaken. They have been employed througout the United States for quite some time. COINTELPRO was all about agents provocateur. A recent episode of NOW with Bill Moyers had a large segment devoted to them infiltrating peace groups throughout the country, and encouraging violent confrontation. They're out there, and they're sure to be in force.

Bottom line-this has a huge possibility of being a disaster in a year where we have created new and effective ways of creating change and it could backfire horribly. And it won't all be the fault of "the man" no matter how much one wishes it were.

I fully agree. We need to concentrate on increasing our capacity for creative nonviolent noncooperation. But just remember, while some of us will engage in simple protest, there will be others engaging in nonviolent civil disobedience, and still that small minority who wish to engage in senseless violent acts. We just have to try and minimize the effects of their stupidity to the largest degree possible.

*Why* does it have to be violent and messy? *Why* are people "promising" that? Is it necessary?

People are pissed off about having their free speech rights violated. They're sick and tired of the government trying to intimidate them. And this being an anonymous message board, people sometimes have a tendency toward hyperbole. Don't look too much into it -- most are simply expressing the sentiment that they will not be denied their right to free speech, along with their expectation that the authorities will employ violent force in order to suppress and intimidate them from exercising that Constitutionally-given right.

[G_j]

120. see post #82 for details n/t

[Guaranteed]

63. Okay, so where DO you put a couple million people? nt

[Baltimoreboy]

64. I don't know NY that well

But obviously not too close to the convention. No city would do that.

[Guaranteed]

65. See, they can't do that.

They can't keep people totally away from the convention. The streets are public. They can block things off a bit to keep it from getting too crazy, but if you're keeping them far enough away that they can't be heard, their rights are being infringed upon because you've given the Repukes room that they don't need, and taken it from the protestors.

[Baltimoreboy]

67. Yes they can

What makes you think they can't? They close off areas in D.C. all the time. They did it during the World Bank protests and only let people through who could show proof they worked in the area. Here you would need proof of work (though I hear businesses will mostly close) or proof you are at the convention.

[Stone_Spirits]

69. they CAN do

lots of things. That doesn't make them constitutional.

[Guaranteed]

70. Why can't we do that with abortion clinics, then?

Keep the fundie clowns far enough away that they can't be heard? They DO have a tendency toward shooting and bombing people, after all.

It's not right. People have the right to be heard. The RNC has the right to get into their convention, but we have the right to be right their next to them, chastising them for being the warmongering, murdering pigs that they are. And if there's a couple of million of us yelling at them, tough shit for them. That's the beauty of protesting.

[Baltimoreboy]

75. That little thing about public order

Police have a responsibility to keep it and trying to keep two wildly at odds groups apart is their job.

[Guaranteed]

76. Are you talking about the abortion clinics?

Or the convention?

[Baltimoreboy]

78. Convention with million-plus protestors

That doesn't leave a lot of room for error.

[Guaranteed]

79. Sure it does. The protestors know that they're in the power

position, so they won't get violent unless they're provoked.

In any case, how far away does one plan to keep these people? 1/8 mile? A mile? A crowd of a million people can do whatever it wants, so unless you're going to keep them WELL away from the convention, like miles, you're not going to stop them from doing anything.

But doing that seems to be extremely unAmerican, and logistically impossible, to me, especially in NYC.

These guys are just going to have to trust that the protestors don't want to harm anyone, and be sure not to step on their toes too much.

[Baltimoreboy]

80. Are you kidding?

The police are always in the power position. They decide where you go and whether they lock you up.

You ask some specifics about location that I can't answer. I don't claim to know NY well enough. If the next convention is held in Baltimore, I can help.

It's not logistically impossible. I've seen it done. You shut off the subway stops in the cordon and barricade that area off. Then you use other police to keep the protestors where they should be.

You seem to think that the protestors can do what they want. They can't. The police are in charge and if it looks like trouble, they will be fully prepared to handle it and make us all look like terrorists.

[starroute]

97. The logistics of midtown Manhattan are nightmarish

The request to assemble on Sheep Meadow in Central Park was already turned down (on the grounds that it might damage the grass.) And there are no other large open spaces anywhere in midtown Manhattan.

Look at the map. Madison Square Garden is on 7th Avenue between 31st and 33rd (the circle with the number 1.) There's nothing but densely packed city blocks for miles in every direction. Short of closing off a street, there's no place to put even 10,000 demonstrators, let alone 250,000.

Also, you can't shut down that part of the city without also shutting down the subway stations and the tunnels and many major through-streets (the ones in yellow.) I can't see any way for this not to be a disaster of some kind. Even without riots, this convention looks likely to bring the normal business of the city to a standstill for days.




On edit: Had to correct the location by a few blocks.

[Baltimoreboy]

98. You don't shut the subway tunnels

You simply don't let the trains stop at those stops. DC has done this in the past.

[starroute]

101. Lincoln Tunnel, not subway tunnel (n/t)

[leftynyc]

77. Fellow New Yorker here and I couldn't agree more

Anyone who is looking for trouble is going to find it and make the left look bad at the same time. I agree that anyone has the right to protest but to purposely look for trouble is nothing but childish and will deserve whatever ass kicking they get.

[G_j]

40. 1000 arrests a day at the RNC says D.A. Morgenthau ?

this story was posted here at DU when it first came out.
..will look for the orginal Newsday article..



http://nyc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/88896/index.php

BY PETE BOWLES
STAFF WRITER

March 10, 2004

Arrests during the Republican National Convention could reach 1,000 a day - three times the city's normal volume, Manhattan District Attorney Robert Morgenthau said yesterday.

Testifying before the City Council's public safety committee at a preliminary hearing for the fiscal year 2005 budget, Morgenthau said the Police Department anticipates a significant increase in arrests in the weeks before and during the convention, which is scheduled for Aug. 30 to Sept. 2 at Madison Square Garden.
Morgenthau said 12 arraignment courts will be operating during that period, instead of the normal four. "Because budget cuts forced us to curtail drastically our incoming classes of assistant district attorneys, we will be hard pressed to handle such dramatic increases," Morgenthau said.

He said budget cuts imposed on his office in recent years had created a "tremendous strain" at a time of "ominous signs" that crime is beginning to rise in some parts of the city.

NY Newsday article.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

[TexasProgresive]

57. WOW!

Post something in a hurry before bed and a firestorm breaks out. BTW: I didn't intend to paint all NYC cops with the broad brush of "storm troopers" but really intended to say that just like there are protesters/provocateurs there are rogue cops who are salivating at the prospect of bashing heads and otherwise terrorising people. Thanks to all for your comments.

[bushwakker]

61. Sheer numbers of people could become the story

If say 2 million folks just crowd around as close to MSG as possible wouldn't that just fuck it all up?

[tom_paine]

74. Worse, perhaps.

God Help the Imperial Subjects of Amerika and all of us.

Though I do not believe God will forgive them unless he forgive the Nazis and the KGB, too.

[Jim__]

81. Where were you in Chicago, 'cause I was in Detroit

That's a line froma Phil Ochs song. I'll be in NYC for this convention.

[porphyrian]

83. Bring your video cameras...

You can bet they will, and it will be your word against theirs.

[smirkymonkey]

116. Send video tapes to news outlets all over the

world, just to make sure the truth of what happens gets out, as it most likely will be suppressed here. Especially if the authorities are the ones provoking the violence.

Rummy hasn't tried to outlaw cell phone cameras in the civilian world yet, has he? :evilgrin:

[AngryAmish]

85. Average Joes in Chiago sided with the cops

They were pretty happy to see the hippie beat-down.

[Kahuna]

86. Repeating Chicago '68 would be a disaster for us. Not bush. In case..

you've forgotten, WE LOST!!!! A lot of ashamed and embarrassed Dems saw so called Democrats (most of them weren't) acting a fool on the nightly news and were embarrassed to be associated with the Dems. So they stayed home or voted for Nixon.

[G_j]

88. suggested viewing

The Trials of Henry Kissinger


http://www.epinions.com/content_82695196292

<snip>
Drawing on the observations of Reporters Hitchens, Seymour Hersh, Elizabeth Becker, Amy Goodman (Pacifica Radio), Barbara Hower and Harper's Publisher Lewis Lapham, we learn that Kissinger was playing two sides of the street during the Vietnam War. LBJ had nearly sewn up a peace treaty with the North Vietnamese in Paris as the 1968 Elections approached, but -- so some of the above mentioned observers allege -- Kissinger leaked the plan to the camp of Republican Nominee Richard Nixon. The Nominee called on Anna Chan Chenault, famed Flying Tiger General Claire Chenault's widow -- known in Washington at the Watergate Apartments where she stayed as "The Dragon Lady." He asked her to offer South Vietnam Leader General van Thieu a better deal if he would hold off agreeing to the terms of the peace settlement. From that tacit agreement, Nixon manufactured his own "Secret Plan to End the War."

There was no Plan, of course, but it proved to be the first October Surprise in American Political History. LBJ, from his own loyal Intelligence sources, knew what Nixon (if not Kissinger) was up to, and offered the proof to Vice President Hubert H. Humphrey, but the Democratic Nominee did not want to appear to be using dirty methods. Humphrey was thereafter blindsided at every turn and lost the Election by a substantial margin.
<snip>

[Jim__]

91. In Chicago it was a police riot in a Democratic city at a Democratic

convention. The investigative commission called it a "police riot." The people who go to a convention to protest are not responsible for a "police riot." People have every right; and in this case, I would say a responsibility to show up at the Republican Convention and protest this administration and its policies.

[G_j]

93. it seems

that some people are just against us exercising our constitutional rights of free speech and assembly by protesting , period. :shrug:

on edit: I'm NOT saying they would deney us that right, it just seems there is always some reason not to, as it will make us 'look bad' etc.

[DinahMoeHum]

100. Permits or not, ready or not, here we come.

:kick:

[Baltimoreboy]

103. Good luck

I checked and the police have guns, tear gas and the power to arrest.

[IrateCitizen]

110. All of that is true

But it is only through the acquiescence of the people that the state is permitted to exercise authority. After all, if a million plus people took to the streets of NYC every single day in nonviolent opposition, the authorities would only be able to exercise violence for so long to quell that protest. After a period of sustained opposition, that violence would begin to backfire on the authorities because the average person would begin to see that it was actually being used against regular people, not being violent themselves.

That's the way that change happens, BaltimoreBoy. That's how the civil rights movement affected change. If you don't like it, fine -- that's your perogative. But just don't try and stand in the way of those of us who are willing to sacrifice a small degree of our personal comfort in order to try and affect positive social change.

After all, no change occurs without struggle.

[Baltimoreboy]

113. You will cost us the election

And that does impact me.

If you cause unrest or it blows up quite literally, it will boost Bush as sure as anything.

[IrateCitizen]

114. Extremely narrow window you're looking through there...

There are things in society that are as big, or bigger than elections. While I readily acknowledge the extreme importance of this election, it does not mean that everything must be suspended until its conclusion.

The idea at the RNC convention should be twofold, IMHO:
1. Despite what the media says, there are millions of us who do not accept the immorality and irrationality of the Bush Administration
2. Despite the attempts of the powers-that-be to intimidate us and stifle dissent, we will not be intimidated, nor will we be quiet.

All of this can very easily be accomplished by nonviolent means on OUR end, and it should. However, that does not necessarily mean that the powers-that-be will take kindly to such an opposition, and THEY may very well decide to respond to nonviolence with violence.

If you cause unrest or it blows up quite literally, it will boost Bush as sure as anything.

Did I say that my ultimate goal was to cause unrest? I'll be there to exercise my right to free speech, and to demonstrate by nonviolent means that I will not be intimidated into silence. If the authorities decide that this is unacceptable, then it is THEM, not ME who will be causing unrest or blowing things up. I have no intentions to do anything of the sort.

[Baltimoreboy]

115. Yes, a narrow window. Now to November.

Right now, there is nothing bigger than the election and all things flow from that.

As for your RNC ideas:
1) Where will you put these millions?
2) Don't be quiet, just don't break anything or go where you are not suppposed to go.

It has to be more than non-violent means. It has to be by legal means.

[knight_of_the_star]

119. Not necessarily

This could blow up in Bush's face if a massive peaceful protest is crushed by police forces. It would show the country how far off we are under this nut.

[knight_of_the_star]

117. I personally would not be surprised

If they flew in mercs and police from cities that wouldn't give a crap about cracking some heads of those "Amurkia-hatin' LIEberuls". The NYPD wouldn't cross that line, although I can bet that others who are willing to will be brought in to do that.

[knight_of_the_star]

118. I personally would not be surprised

If they flew in mercs and police from cities that wouldn't give a crap about cracking some heads of those "Amurkia-hatin' LIEberuls". The NYPD wouldn't cross that line, although I can bet that others who are willing to will be brought in to do that.