I spoke with a friend who decided to vote for Nader this year

[arissa]

She said she was strongly "anyone but Bush" up until recently. What changed was she said she got sick to death of all the negative, outrageous lies and attacks being spread by Democrats against Nader. She's followed Nader's career and has always respected him, and she tired of Democrats slandering him because they can't cover their own left-flank.

I was surprised to hear this, because she's always been so solidly against Bush, voted for Gore, intended to vote for Kerry, but is just disgusted at the vitrol.

I think this is going to be indicative of many Nader voters. The negative attacks, lies, comparisons to various evil people, etc, are going to backfire. Fence-sitters who like Nader, who like what the Green party stands for but planned to hold their nose and vote for Kerry because of their desire to see Bush lose are going to get pissed, and are not going to vote for Kerry.

I see a lot of this at DU. I wish it would stop. Do some of you really believe that you're going to convince those progressive fence-sitters to vote for Kerry by attacking a man who has dedicated his life to making America better (and whether or not you believe he has dedicated his life is irrelevant, because the people you're trying to convince not to vote for him DO believe that)?

I know, I know, flame away.

[redqueen]

1. No flames from me

Just a deep, deep sadness that so many people don't seem to see the forest for the trees.

[sangh0]

2. This will be a very persuasive argument

for people who believe what is said by "someone on the Internet".

[Renew Deal]

3. Is she another republican for Nader?

Her feeling have been hurt so bad that she would prefer that Bush be reselected? She is a whiner that should grow up.

[arissa]

8. Actually, she

volunteered for Clinton in '96, and still has a "Students for Clinton/Gore" poster in her closet. She has dutifully cast her ballot in every Democratic primary since then, voted for Gore, and always told me how much she was "anyone but Bush" up until last night.

And your post is indicative of exactly the type of attacks that are going to push those progressive fence-sitters back over to Nader's side of the fence.

[Renew Deal]

10. I am not going to be bullied by someone's whining.

If she thinks that the country will be better off with Bush, she should just vote for him. Not sugar coat it with Nader. What does she think of all the negative crap that is hitting Kerry. Your friend's priorities are obviously screwed up.

[arissa]

14. "Bullied"?

I'm not sure how her deciding how to cast her own ballot is bullying, but I'm sure it makes you feel good to play the underdog. :)

You can call her priorities messed up, but I call your approach to Nader is messed up. The point of this thread is simple; take a deep breath and think about this statement:

If you want to neutralize Nader, you need to create a Democratic party that is amenable to his supporters. Attacking him like this will only drive people who WANT to vote for Kerry back into his camp.

[Renew Deal]

22. That's BS

There is room in the party for Nader and his "supporters" (republican operatives). Nader has sat down with Terry M. and Kerry. He is the one who choses to be an enemy to the party. There is room for him if he wanted to join. Nader is the enemy. Nader voters are potential Dem. voters that need to be won over. Nader volunteers, donors, and enablers are the enemy. You have seen them fraternizing with the republicans. Nader's petitions and money come from the right. So if Nader wants to join the party, the doors are open. He is the enemy as long as he stays in the race. And if your friend has a problem with that, tell her to vote for Bush. She is as much as a Bush enabler as Bush supporters themselves.

[Old and In the Way]

42. Sorry.

"you need to create a Democratic party that is amenable to his supporters"

Sorry, I don't want my Party to be held hostage by a bunch of dilletantes that are too stupid to understand what's transpiring around them. If they haven't figured Ralph out by now, they never will. Expecting the mountain to move to Mohammed is rather silly, don't you think?

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Sirveri]

48. you got it wrong.

don't you know, it's fool me once shame on you, fool me twice... uhhh... durrr... can't get fooled again!

24. doesn't look like she's whining

It looks like the poster is telling you about what she is saying.
You don't know if she's whining or not, since she is not the one who posted, now do you?

[Renew Deal]

30. Sounds like whining to me.

But the poster might be conveying it the wrong way.

38. true

it can be read that way.
I'm suspecting the poster may have filtered it some.

[emulatorloo]

46. But Kerry Likes Nader, And Has Never Said Anything Bad About Him

He and Nader have worked together. Nader Likes Kerry. I do not understand your friend. . .it is very confusing to me.

[bryant69]

4. Well

I'm not sure I follow the logic here. I mean I haven't heard the Kerry camp attack Nader all that much. It's mostly been third parties hasn't it? Concerned citizens like us at DU?

SO I guess the logic is that "Well I heard some Democrats slamming Nader (who doesn't deserve it) so i'm going to punish Kerry and America by voting for Nader."

Maybe I'm not following it.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[ibegurpard]

7. It's pretty easy to follow

A basic tenet of human nature...too much criticism of something can make it attractive to people or cause them to defend it.

[redqueen]

16. Reactionary thinking / kneejerking

is human nature?

I thought it was more of an example of indulging in understandable yet still immature emotional reactions rather than using logic and reason.

:shrug:

[sangh0]

36. Yes, it is a part of human nature to react emotionally

but IMO, the most human part of our human nature is our ability to resist our basest inclinations by applying reason.

[redqueen]

47. Yes that's true

I just hate that so many types of 'bad' behavior are so frequently defended as 'human nature'. Especially when, as you pointed out, being human we have the ability to use our minds and will to resist those primitive inclinations.

[sangh0]

50. It's what separates us from the rest of the animal kingdom

or so I've been told.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. I do not believe this

sorry.

[SammyWinstonJack]

58. "I do not believe this"

Nor do I.

[jjmalonejr]

6. I'm not sure what negative, outrageous lies & attacks she's talking about

If she's referring to folks criticizing Nader for running a potential spoiler campaign at a time when a Bush victory could mean continued steps backwards for the United States, then I have to disagree with her.

Those types of criticisms aren't lies or attacks. I haven't heard people attacking Naders progressive credentials, but I have hear folks question his motives, which seems fair to me. Many progressives (including myself) are confused by Nader's campaign, which seems ultimately self-serving, and don't hesitate to say as much.

Is that so wrong?

[tandot]

9. I wish her all the best

and a great big THANKS from all the world's children who will be the ones suffering the consequences from 4 more years of Bush.



cartoon posted by thebigmansentme just a short while ago

[Skittles]

11. Nader voters are a lost cause

unbelievably stupid

[FrankBooth]

12. Boo Hoo

This is such utter drivel. Your friend is not very smart.

[Toucano]

13. She's voting for Bush.

Simple as that. Self-deception is no excuse. A vote for Ralph is a vote for W.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Demonaut]

15. good post, I think we need to leave Nader alone

after all we're just preaching to the choir. Still ABB is really the end result right?

[redqueen]

20. No

Voting for Nader is not ABB. It's pro-bush.

Voting for Nader will help bush in his effort to defeat Kerry. It's that simple.

[Demonaut]

28. I realize that, but to alienate Nader, who has as a devote following as

any here will only undermine our goal.....we need to embrace not insult, persuade not force these voters, some will always vote their heart but hopefully we can persuade many to vote their conscious....that bush has to go if we want to save the country and possibly the world

[redqueen]

34. I don't care if Democrats were saying nasty things about my mother

I still see that bush is bad for this country, and knowing that I would be of the mind that I should vote for their candidate, regardless of how much they hurt my feelings.

Maybe it's just me. :shrug:

[Demonaut]

39. as you understand the situation, but some naderites see it as tough

love when it comes to bush. I support Kerry wholeheartedly but some have blinders on and others are just stubborn

[Cheswick2.0]

61. Nader is an opposition candidate

I keep asking why he should get a pass. Do we give bush a pass? Should we leave him alone too?

[Renew Deal]

29. Right, he is supported by the republicans and we should ignore him?

I didn't know we weren't supposed to challenge saint Ralph. Remember, Nader prefers that Kerry doesn't win.

[Demonaut]

37. he's reversed himself on that stance, but it's not about challenging

Nader, it's about getting his voters to see the light, I've a few friends who support Nader and I've talked myself blue tryng to persuade them not to vote for Nader but I try never to attack Nader just present reasons why this time they need to vote bush out of office. As the saying goes "You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar"

[Old and In the Way]

51. Here's an idea.

Have Ralph tell his "followers" to vote for Kerry.

Problem solved.

If someone has to be told by their "leader" what is in their obvious best interests, well, perhaps they should reconsider if they should be making really tough decisions, like voting.

[Demonaut]

60. I think thats happened

[Cheswick2.0]

62. No it hasn't

He said something lame like feel free to vote for Kerry in swing states.
He said something similar in 2000 all the while attacking Gore and democrats.
I don't trust him to keep his word. He is running and he will be treated like the opposition.

[Liberal Veteran]

18. Have you asked her why she is punishing Kerry for it?

It sounds to me like a person who is cutting off her nose to spite her face.

Why punish Kerry because a few a dems are vocally anti-Nader?

Hell, for that matter, far more dems are extremely vocal about their loathing of Bush. Ask her if that is a good reason to vote for Bush!

[lovedems]

19. So the attacks on Nader are more important to her then policies of Bush?

Hmmm...she is a victim of something, I am just not sure what. Ignorance? The media? Revenge? All of the above?

If Bush gets 4 more years, he will be placing more then 1 justice on the SCOTUS. Please, let us know how she feels about her vote when that travesty occurs.

[hyphenate]

21. No flames

but a couple of strong questions and comments.

Many people like Ralph Nader, but the point is less what our personal politics are, especially this particular voting year, and more an attempt to remove the moron-in-chief from the highest electted position in the country. For folks who really despise George W. Bush, voting for Nader is a vote FOR him, regardless of what a person thinks of Kerry or not.

Does you friend realize this? Does she seriously want to see GWB return to the white house after the election?

The attitude before the primary season was ABB--Anyone But Bush. Those of us who are far better informed than the general public took this as a given--we would ALL support whichever candidate walked away from the primaries and the convention with the nomination. We relied on the general public to make their choice clear--we would stick to that choice. While many among us would have liked to have seen Dennis Kucinich, Howard Dean, John Edwards, Wesley Clark or someone other than John Kerry emerge victorious, the decision was made by a significant amount of voters that Kerry was the likely winner among the field of potential candidates.

The attitude is still ABB, but with the difference that John Kerry is the nominee. Again, some of us might not like that choice, but we know that regardless of our personal feelings, any Democrat is better, far better, than the idiot in the white house now. The plan is to get rid of this stinking regime, ALL of them. The idea is that the election in the year 2000 was upended by the republicans and their strong armed tactics, and Ralph Nader was a spoiler in many respects.

By all counts, the "final" (though not legal by any means!) vote in Florida was something like 58 vote difference. Of course, the sunshine law proved that if all the votes in Florida had been recounted properly, Gore was the winner, but it was never accomplished. And for Ralph Nader to once again insinuate himself into this year's election, knowing quite well what happened in Florida in the year 2000, means that he once again wants to strain the election results and help re-select GWB as president.

This is, BTW, Democratic Underground. You will not find a whole helluva lot of Nader supporters here, unless they seriously want to rid the white house of the squatters and liars residing there right now. That means, if they are here, they are supporting the Democratic nominee for president. If they want to support Ralph Nader, it's time to make a new website like naderunderground, or some such group. If people want to support him, they need to get the hell out of the DEMOCRATIC underground, and decide once and for all whether they want to fight this fight with us or against us. While most liberals view things in more shades of grey than freepers and their ilk do, this is one issue on which we have no choice--you're either a Bush supporter by being a Nader supporter, or you're a supporter of all that made this country a great one, and support the Democratic nominee. It's as simple as that.

[arissa]

27. So far the replies are somewhat what I expected

People are ignoring the moral of the story in their haste to attack Nader and make presumptuous comments about my friend.

The point is simple, and maybe I could have been more clear originally:

The only way to neutralize Nader is to win back a good chunk of the people that voted for him in 2000, but could go either way. You cannot do that by attacking the man they respect and admire. You are stabbing yourselves in the foot. If Nader comes out stronger this year than in 2000 (which I don't know if he will), it will be because of all these insane attacks.

[Liberal Veteran]

35. It seems to me that her logic is counterproductive and wrongheaded...

Perhaps she should turn on right wing radio and listen to the non-stop vitriol against Kerry.

Instead of doing what's right for the country she wants to throw a hissy fit because some Democrats don't cotton to Nader and are suspicious of him?

And if we end up with 4 more years of Bush is she prepared to admit her role in his getting a second term no matter how much damage he does?

Again, as I said before, it's cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I am not quite sure what Nader's game is right now, but the fact is even Nader is saying Vote for Kerry:




<June 23, 2004 -- NPR's Robert Siegel travels with independent presidential candidate Ralph Nader in Illinois and Indiana. Nader says he is running for the office as a way to steer the Democratic Party toward an agenda he advocates. The longtime consumer advocate wants would-be supporters to attend his rallies, but he says he wants them to feel free to cast their votes for Sen. John Kerry once they enter the voting booth -- especially in swing states where their vote might help defeat President Bush.

[FrankBooth]

44. No, you are ignoring the political reality of 2004

"The only way to neutralize Nader is to win back a good chunk of the people that voted for him in 2000, but could go either way. You cannot do that by attacking the man they respect and admire. You are stabbing yourselves in the foot. If Nader comes out stronger this year than in 2000 (which I don't know if he will), it will be because of all these insane attacks."

Your friend is more concerned about her delicate feelings than the disasterous consequences of a shrub victory in 2004. Democrats would be stupid to take the considerations of these poltical prima donnas into account. If your friend wants to vote for Nader, that is her right, but it is also our right as fellow Americans to heap scorn upon her - she is obviously only a political dilettante. The stakes are too high, and this election is WAR. She is aiding and abetting the enemy, plain and simple.

I will repeat: Your friend is not very smart.

[Cheswick2.0]

63. bullshit

I am not attacking your friend. I simply think the whole story is bogus. Go carry for Nader somewhere else if you don't like the responses you are getting.

[Bridget Burke]

23. Nader did some good work in the past.

Too bad he helped Bush get in & is trying to get him in again. Too bad he's tainted the Green Party by association; I actually like a lot of the Green ideas.

I doubt your story. Is this really your friend's opinion or yours?

[carolinayellowdog]

25. Read this and share it with your friend

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

26. Your friend will vote for Kerry and say they voted for Nader

Just to get some attention.

[Killarney]

31. I'll take my ball and go home!

That's real mature of her.

Democrats are making fun of Nader! WAh! So, I'm going to vote for him and enable Bush. That will show those meanie Democrats.

Fucking crybaby. Tell your friend to get a clue and thicker skin. If she wants to enable Bush, she has every right to. But the blood of Bush's next war is on her hands.

[mac56]

32. Your friend seems to have a need for self-punishment.

Too bad she's so willing to drag all the rest of us along.

[IrateCitizen]

33. Funny thing is, Nader will hurt the Greens as well as the Dems

I've read two separate pieces over the past two days talking about the way in which Ralph Nader and Peter Camejo are endangering party-building efforts of the Green Party -- one was by CA GP Senatorial Candidate Media Benjamin, and the other was by a former NY GP Senatorial candidate.

Nader ISN'T a Green. He's a member of the "Nader Party" first, foremost and always. EVERYBODY is asking him not to run this year -- the editors of The Nation, the Congressional Black Caucus, even many Green Party activists themselves. In fact, Nader and Camejo are actively trying to hijack the will of the Green Party itself in seeking the Green endorsement (which would then get Nader on the ballot in several states in which he wouldn't appear otherwise), while the candidate preferred by a majority of GP members seems to be David Cobb, a guy who has risen through their ranks and is pledging to run a campaign on a "no swing states" policy.

If I were you, I would try and get your friend to think about a few things -- especially if you're in a contested state:
1. Is there any real chance of Nader winning the election? If not, then what will a vote for him help accomplish in the end?
2. If Nader is looking to supplant the wishes of the majority of people within the Green Party itself in order to further his own candidacy, what hope does that give you that he is truly interested in furthering democratic process in this country?

Of course, if you live in a solidly red or blue state, all of this is really moot, which is something I wish more people here would take into consideration.

[Grown2Hate]

40. Here's what a LOT of Dem's don't understand about Nader voters...

These are NOT necessarily "Dem voters" that will vote for Nader. A lot of these people that will vote for Nader are people that wouldn't normally for ANYBODY, because there's not been a party that speaks to (or for) them. I don't hear that mentioned enough.

People think that if Kerry is running at 50% in a poll, and Nader at 3%, that Kerry would be at 53% "if it weren't for that damn Nader running and ruining everything!" That ASSUMES far too much, doesn't it? Most likely, that 3% would just be absorbed by the other two candidates.

Everyone can flame me (or feel sorry for me, etc. etc.) all they want, but when it comes down to it, I'm voting for KERRY. We need someone in office that can get some essentials things CHANGED. We NEED a better voting structure. Our current system is FAR too restricting and contingent on the amount of money the candidate raises. We ALL know that. (for Chrissakes, our current voting structure hasn't changed since the inception of the Union, for all intents and purposes, and it was a goddamn EXPERIMENT to begin with! no one had attempted a real republic since ancient Greece!).

With BUSH in office, however, it's only going to get WORSE. I realize that, therefore I'm voting Kerry (and trying to convince everyone I know to do the same). But to say "NADER=BUSH" is insulting, misleading, and accomplishing NOTHING but alienating potential supporters.

[Bluebear]

41. Where is she seeing all this "vitrol"?

"she got sick to death of all the negative, outrageous lies and attacks being spread by Democrats against Nader."


Where is your friend seeing all this 'spread'? Certainly she can't be a casual political observer because I certainly haven't seen any mainstream Democrats 'attacking' Nader. What is her source of information?

[emulatorloo]

43. But Kerry Met With Nader, Has Worked W Nader In the Past, And Never

Said Anything Bad About Nader. Nader Likes Kerry Kerry Likes Nader.

Ask Your Friend Why She Is Punishing Kerry For What A Cranky Dem Said To Her?

I Am Sorry I Don't Understand Her Position Or Logic?

[RiffRandell]

45. So she voted for Gore in 2000 because

she was sick of all the slandering and lies told about Gore by Nader?
You know, no difference between him and Bush? I'm f**cking tired of being told to cater to these people. I'm convinced if Kerry voted against the IWR, against the Patriot Act and wasn't wealthy they would still come up with more bullshit reasons to not vote for him.

[fudge stripe cookays]

49. Well I hope her convictions

serve her well on the front lines in Iraq, since she will most likely be drafted with all the other new recruits.

Your friend needs to get a clue by 4.

[Sirveri]

52. A vote for Nader is NOT a vote for Bush.

It's a vote for NO ONE.

You have three choices in this election, some of them have multiple veneers but they're all the same. You can vote Bush. You can vote against Bush (Kerry). Or you can not bother to vote at all (Nader, any third party, your dad, yourself, it's raining out, whatever...)

Those are your choices. Have fun. Kerry is not my ideal candidate, hell I'll be honest with you, my favorites were Dean and Gephardt. But when all is said and done Kerry is the ONLY person who can unseat the incumbent at this point. You might not like your choices, but failing to realise them because it offends you is nothing more than short sighted suicide.

[ShaneGR]

53. Are we supposed to care?

Seriously, if she wants to help Bush fine, but no need to ram it down our throats. We're working to get rid of Bush, not help him.

[SiouxJ]

54. I have 3 friends who voted for Nader last time

who are voting for Kerry this time. They are so upset by what Shrub has done to this country that they aren't taking any chances this time.

[progressivebydesign]

56. I like your friends!!! N/T

[progressivebydesign]

55. I'm guessing she's pretty inexperienced politically...

I'd say she's probably in her 20's. Never voted before.. or perhaps voted once. She gets her news from the tv, or worse yet, gets it from hearing people at work talking.. and people at school talking. If she's older than that.. or more experienced.. then I'd be shocked. That type of thinking usually hits the less-experienced voters. There are many 16 year olds with much clearer ideas on how the process really works. Your friend is punishing the rest of the world because she thinks "people are mean!". Deep.

Can I just say that I think her excuse for voting for Nader is one the lamest I've ever heard. If she feels sorry for the man, then tell her to write him a nice note, or bake him some cookies. If she'd like to make some sort of grand statement (known only to her and everyone else she's chosen to share this GRAND political idea), then voting for Nader in a private booth, thereby giving George Bush another 4 years, is mostly misguided, and actually pretty ignorant.

Has she seen F 9/11 yet? I suggest you take her to see it, before she embarrasses herself further by spouting such immature political grandstanding.

[Warren DeMontague]

57. Oh, Give Me A Break...

First off, I think the Democratic Party, and the Presumptive Democratic Nominee, have bent over backwards to not attack Ralph Nader. I also don't think the attacks here have been particularly vicious, or widespread, especially considering that there is no getting around the fact that the man was a factor in Bush's being able to steal the 2000 election, and as such, we partially have him to think for the unmitigated river of shit we find ourselves swimming in now.

(quote)

The only way to neutralize Nader is to win back a good chunk of the people that voted for him in 2000, but could go either way. You cannot do that by attacking the man they respect and admire. You are stabbing yourselves in the foot. If Nader comes out stronger this year than in 2000 (which I don't know if he will), it will be because of all these insane attacks.

Yeah, right.

What "insane attacks"? The most insane attack I've heard with regards to this debate has come from the Nader camp- and it goes along the lines of saying that Bush and Kerry are tweedledum and tweedledee, and there's no difference between the two and it doesn't matter who wins and blah blah blah. Sorry, but that's fucking insane. You think things aren't worse now than they were under that "sell-out" Bill Clinton? You think they aren't gonna get a damn sight worse with four more years of this nightmare, coupled with another Supreme Court Justice on the lines of Thomas or Scalia (sorry, make that Chief Justice Scalia)

Look, I've got many friends who voted for Nader in 2000. I have one, at least, that is probably going to vote for him again-- and I think he's out of his bloomin' mind. Condensing your argument above, it sounds like what you want is for no Democrats to express any irritation with Ralph Nader's candidacy, despite the obvious numerical difference it makes in every single poll taken, and you want the Democratic Party to adopt part and parcel the entire platform of... wait, it's not the Green Party, it's the Ralph Nader Party, isn't it?... Well, I'm not sure what, exactly, Ralph Nader stands for anymore, other than Ralph Nader.. As far as the Green Party goes, yeah, they have some nice ideas. On some issues I do wish the Democratic Party would show more backbone. But you know what? They're the best hope we've got right now. This scorced earth approach to politics doesn't solve anything. Petulant Greenies and Naderites remind me of this 20-year old kid I knew through my old job, who was very passionate and idealistic, but also a little dumb or at least blinded by his own overzealousness.. (in short, much like I was at that age) Around the time of the big anti-war protests in SF, I was talking to him about how we were both going to be there. He pulled me aside, and said, "yeah.. and some people I know... are planning an "action" afterwards". Well, it didn't take me long to figure out he was talking about the yahoos who think they're facilitating social change by breaking windows and spray-painting newspaper boxes. I got pissed off, and told him- "listen- what do you think happens when you have 100,000 people peacefully protest, and 200 people run wild and break shit immediately afterwards? The media gives 5 minutes to the peaceful antiwar protesters, 5 minutes to the 20 or so "pro-war" protesters (because they need to be "balanced") and then another 10 minutes to the vandals and imbeciles who broke the law. Hence tarnishing a huge, legitimate protest and marginalizing it in the eyes of the public." (And, call me Nostradamus, on the news after the protest, that was exactly what happened) On a larger scale, I see Nader people as doing the same thing. Destroying the very things they claim to have as their goals, because they relish the role of wannabe radical.

Bottom line? The Dems could do all those things you ask for above, and my experience with Ralph Nader voters is, half of them would still vote for Nader. No matter what. So it looks like, to me at least, your friend is playing dog in the manger-- to try to get "us" to adopt her agenda via whining. Simple as that.

edit:puct.

[yardwork]

59. What lies about Nader?

I know several people who know Nader well, and worked for him for years. They say that Nader is a narcissistic twit who can't manage people and would be a terrible president.

Millions of us respect Nader for his courageous work. That doesn't mean that we think he would be a good president. I think he'd be a lousy president.

If this hurts somebody's feelings so much that they decide to vote in support of Bush (which is what a vote for Nader is) - well, they're probably a twit, too.

Sorry, but there it is.

Some folks need to grow up. Politics isn't smiley faces and playing patty-cake. People are dying in a war we started. We have serious problems. We don't have time for cry babies.

[JHBowden]

64. Nader wants to destroy the Democratic Party.

*Democrats* obviously aren't too thrilled about this project.

If a liberal voter wants another Bush term in place of a Massachusetts liberal, I question their intelligence. :dunce: