Who Killed Nick Berg? -- Iraqi Resistance says not them!

[Eloriel]

whoisinpower posted the article in this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1849793

I thought this particular piece of it deserved a thread of its own. The Iraqi resistance, led by some former Iraqi generals, says they didn't kill Nick Berg (and then there are two other high profile attacks they provide some additional details about too):

They are also responsible for the kidnapping of foreigners. "We are aware that the kidnapping of foreign nationals blemishes our image, but try to understand the situation. We are forced to control the identity of people circulating in our territory. If we have proof that they are humanitarians or journalists we release them. If they are spies, mercenaries or collaborators we execute them. On this matter, let's be clear, we are not responsible for the death of Nick Berg, the American who was beheaded.

As to the attack against the UN headquarters in Baghdad on August 20, 2003: "We have never issued an order to attack the UN and we had a lot of esteem towards the Brazilian Sergio Vieira de Mello , but it's not impossible that the authors of this suicide attack come from another resistance group. As we have explained, we don't control everything. And we must not forget that the UN is responsible for the 13 years of embargo we have endured."

What about the October 27, 2003 attack against the Red Cross in Baghdad? "This had nothing to do with us, we always had a lot of respect for this organization and the people who work for them. What would be our interest to attack one of the few institutions which has been helping the Iraq population for years? We know that people from Fallujah have claimed this attack, but we can assure you they are not part of the resistance. And we also add: for political and economic reasons, there are many who have an interest in discrediting us."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FF25Ak07.html

The whole article is most interesting.

[genius]

1. Try the U.S. Military. And they seem to have started a craze of copy cat

beheadings. Or maybe they are just trying to turn the public against Middle-Easterners and are behind all of them. There is substantial evidence our government staged the Berg beheading from the digital footprint to the American Military cap in 60 frames of the video.

[thebigidea]

4. digital footprint? wha?

[genius]

18. The video was shot with the same camera as the Abu Graibe torture

video. There were traces on the videos that acted as a digital footprint. Check the DU threads from shortly after the video came out and was discredited. There was a lot of discussion about the digital footprint on the two videos.

[Must_B_Free]

24. Wow - "a lot of discussion" = fact?

Are we willing to believe any swill we are fed without any critical examination?

There was a rumour from a blog that kodak hab matched "digital artifatcs". To my knowledge, nothing ever came of it besides this rumour. Much of that discussion was trying to figure out what "digital signatures" are supposed to be and how you could perform a valid comparison between an extremely low resolution web video and an analog video recording

My personal opinion is that believing anything that comes along and sounds good is not helpful. Certainly, promoting it as fact is detremental.

[maggrwaggr]

25. prove it

Sorry, but that's absolute horseshit. there's no such thing on digital cameras of any kind.

[hunter]

43. My digital camera is very distinctive and unique.

One pixel is stuck bright, one pixel is stuck dark, and quite a few other pixels do not match one another when I photograph a plainly colored surface. These are random manufacturing defects.

That's a few bad pixels out of 2 million. Matching a photograph to a camera is sort of like a marine biologist identifying individual whales by the unique markings on their backs.

[Must_B_Free]

53. Were Both Abu Graib and Nick Berg video

taped with a digital camera?

Where did Kodak get the source video for the Nick Berg side of the comparison, from the terrorists themselves?

As far as I ever heard, the Nick Berg source was a very low resolution web video composed by two different cameras. The source video was never distributed.

Why should we speculate about what is possible or not possible, lets just see what they officially said about it. Will you please provide the link to the announcement of the results from Kodak Labs?

[hunter]

54. I do agree, the "Kodak labs" thing is noise.

There is so much noise here. But my own intuition seems to provide a pretty good lock on Nick Berg. If I was proven wrong, maybe I could sleep.

Peace be with you.

[NewEmanuelGoldstein]

44. Yes there is

It's called "vertical blanking" it's the part of the signal that stores things like the CC, and the coding for the CNN or FOX in the bottom corner of a picture. And potentialy could ID who made the camcorder, and a few other things.

I know because a relative of mine told me when I asked. He worked at NBC tape operations (network not local) for almost 25 years before retiring 2 years ago.

So is the knowledge of someone with nearly a quarter century of network level video tape operations enough "proof" for you?

[Must_B_Free]

52. Did your relative compare

the Nick Berg Video Tape against the Abu Graib video tape?

[TexasSissy]

2. Al Qaeda claimed responsibility, didn't it?

The guy in the video even identified himself. He's a known Al Qaeda leader. At least, that's what I recall, without looking it up.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

7. He's also known to be dead. Supposedly.

[frylock]

10. and he only has one leg. supposedly.

is there a media guide for this shit yet? I'm having a hard time keeping track of stats and stuff. Maybe Street & Smith's will release something like they do before college football starts.

[Screaming Lord Byron]

14. It was Col. Mustard in the Dining Room with the Candlestick.

[yardwork]

9. No, al Qaeda never claimed responsibility.

I was reading on DU the night the video was released. I saw major portions of it, and I saw stills. That was the fakest beheading I've ever seen. It was obvious that the person was dead before their head was cut off.

Later theories, which make sense to me, indicate that the video was probably a montage of footage filmed at different times. The opening sequences, in which Berg is alive, relaxed, and sitting in a white plastic chair against a yellow wall, was probably filmed while he was detained by American forces in Abu Ghraib. He was clearly not in fear for his life.

The later sequences, when Berg is slumped on the floor, were probably filmed after he died. How did Berg really die? Perhaps he was accidentally killed during interrogation in Abu Ghraib, as so many others were. Perhaps he was released and murdered on the street. Perhaps he was killed by a bomb or gun fire.

It's clear to me that American forces - probably the paramilitary contractors that don't answer to to U. S. military forces - either killed Berg or recovered his dead body, and decided to stage a horrific "beheading" to upset Americans and "prove" that al Qaeda is operating in Iraq.

The people doing the "beheading" look and stand like Americans. Middle Easterners say that the cloths wrapped around their faces are wrapped all wrong. There is a shot of somebody's American military cap in the edge of a few frames.

The Berg beheading is a fraud perpetrated by Americans. The video is so fake it is obvious to anyone watching it. That's why the video is no longer available anywhere. It was disappeared so that nobody could debunk it any further.

Disclaimer: I'm not a conspiracy buff. I don't believe in alien abductions etc. I'm simply a middle-aged American who happened to be reading the internet the night this video was released, and I'm reporting what I saw. What I saw was a fraud. Period.

[drfemoe]

49. It hasn't disappeared >>

http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2004/05/12/beheading_video2/index1.html

[theboss]

3. Well, no one has accused them

The beheading has been credited to foreign fighters who entered Iraq after Hussein fell.

[Eloriel]

6. Not so sure about that

Here are some interesting links:

Beheading Staged?
- al-Zarqawi Was Killed Long Ago
Commentary By Susan Forest
NY NY 5-12-4

http://rense.com/general52/stageda.htm

Dear Jeff,

I noticed that the western propaganda media is now 'converting' from Bin Laden to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, all the world's evils that used to be atrributed to Bin Laden in his cave are now atrributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi in the sand dunes. AND THESE TWO ARE ALWAYS ELUDING OUR MULTI -TRILLION DOLLAR DEFENCE ESTABLISMENT...Arabs must be very smart!

Not a single reporter/newspaper worldwide had the ethics to report that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed a long time ago. See story below.

SO, WHO ELSE HAD THE MOTIVE TO PERFORM THIS OBVIOUSLY STAGED EVENT?
"Round up the usual suspects"

Israel got all the communications contracts for Iraq from the USA. Berg came to Iraq to take part of these telephone contracts for himself from the Israelis. He had to be liquidated before the American taxpayers realise that Bush is awarding contracts to Israel over American contractors. This is admittedly speculative, but it might help to explain why the FBI arrested Berg and played so many games with him before he was killed.

Regards,

Susan Forest
NY NY

---------------------
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4446084/


Iraq Militants Claim al-Zarqawi Is Dead

Al Qaida-linked extremist suspected of planning attacks
Undated photo of suspected al-Qaida commander Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi.
The Associated Press

Updated: 6:31 a.m. ET March 04, 2004

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A Jordanian extremist suspected of bloody suicide attacks in Iraq was killed some time ago in U.S. bombing and a letter outlining plans for fomenting sectarian war is a forgery, a statement allegedly from an insurgent group west of the capital said.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed in the Sulaimaniyah mountains of northern Iraq "during the American bombing there," according to a statement circulated in Fallujah this week and signed by the "Leadership of the Allahu Akbar Mujahedeen."

---------------------

prodigal_green (632 posts) Thu May-13-04 12:49 PM
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x552389#552397
13. Damn, I wish I could remember
I was listening to the radio (it was either NPR or AAR) and they said it couldn't be Zarqawi because the accent was all wrong. He has a Southern Jordanian accent and the voice is clearly a Norhtern Jordanian accent. I can't remember which program I was listening to when they explained this.

-------------
Minstrel Boy (1000+ posts) Thu May-13-04 12:51 PM
16. And imagine: just last month, he grew another leg.
For over a year we were told he'd been treated for an amputation in Baghdad. Then, in mid-April, the story changed. He now had two legs.

From Molly Ivins, April 13:

Note the interesting little factoids that are being dribbled out as everyone's attention is riveted on the larger slippage in Iraq. Apparently in the spirit of the British civil servant who put out a memo on Sept. 11 advising all departments that today would be a good day to unload any bad news lying around, we now learn that Abu Musad al Zarqawi has two legs.

This will not strike you as a stop-the-presses moment unless you remember that al Zarqawi was one of Osama bin Laden's Number Two men (we seem to have captured several "Number Two" men already, with more still out there.) Pre-war, the administration claimed the reason it was so certain Saddam Hussein had ties to Al Qaeda was that Zarqawi had gone to Baghdad to get his leg amputated. But now, oops, he has two.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=16754

Isn't that an interesting factoid to dribble out just four weeks before the Berg tape?

-----------------------------------------------
Check this out! With regards to Berg's "beheading"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1595307

----------------------------------

Death Of Nick Berg:
Bush-Cheney-Pentagon PsyOp?
By URI DOWBENKO
5-12-4


http://rense.com/general52/nickk.htm

Who's responsible for dumping Nick Berg, an unarmed American Jew, wearing an orange jumpsuit (with a Star of David scrawled on his back)in the middle of hostile Arab territory?

The Soviets used to call it disinformatsiya. The Pentagon calls it PsyOps, or "psychological operations." It has been effectively used to divert attention from the Abu Ghraib prison scandal of Americans torturing Iraqi civilians, 90% of whom were "arrested by mistake," according to a recent Red Cross report.

This Psychological Operation is aimed at the American Public as Faux News and other channels of disinformation propagate the images of the beheading of Nick Berg to their own advantage.

Bush-Cheney has gotten its sacrificial victim -- an expendable Jew. His father,Michael Berg, even dared complain about the unconstitutional USA Patriot Act. Worse yet, he even dared to sue the US Government for the release of his son, arrested and held in Iraq for 13 days. No charges were filed against the late Nick Berg.

Continued here http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=2&contentid=1228&page=2

-------------------------

Another:
Nick Berg's Killing: 50 Fishy Circumstances, Contradictory Claims, and Videotape Anomalies (Politics)
By decon recon
Sun May 16th, 2004 at 05:36:52 PM EST

The video tape and circumstances of the killing of Nick Berg seem fishier and fishier. This article summarizes and lists 50 anomalies around Berg and his death.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

------------------

And I have more.

[Minstrel Boy]

5. "How wicked was that?"

Pretty damn wicked.

I think we know enough about Nick Berg's murderers to know who they weren't.

And the people who think we're crazy for suspecting a black op can swallow without straining the story that Berg gave Zaccharias Moussoui the password to his email account after a single chance encounter on a bus.

[SpiralHawk]

8. "Do the name "Temporary Bushgonia" strike a familiar note?"

With umble apologies to Ruby Begonia, wherever you may be (and that goes for you, too, Mrs. Calabash).

[Frangible]

11. I think there's more to the Nick Berg case than we've been told

I'm not going to say the government killed him, but I think from the evidence they had a role in it somehow, from releasing him in area he'd get killed, to beheading his corpse after the fact, the whole thing looked really fake.

[hunter]

12. Eloriel, I hate some of the speculation that gets dumped in these threads.

My intuition is still telling me that Nick Berg was a strange young man who liked to fix radios and climb towers. He was in Iraq because he could do that there. He's dead because he trusted the wrong people.

We don't yet know which people. I think that's the best position to start examining this from.

[keithyboy]

13. I said it then, I'll say it now. Iraqi insurgents and Al-qaeda get blamed

for lots of things they don't do. The Nick Berg case is especially of note. Mossad special ops have been operating inside of Iraq on a wide scale since early 2001. I never believed that Al-qaeda or Iraqi insurgents were responsible for the UN bombing or the Red Cross bombings. The truth is, we don't know who these people are who are wreaking this havoc on and in Iraq but the best indicator of the truth is to ask the question "Who benefits from such actions?" It certainly is not Al-qaeda (who only wants the westerners to leave Arab lands and these actions only bring more westerners into Arab lands) and it certainly is not the Irqi insurgents (who want to regain control of their country and kick out ALL foreigners.) I hope that one day the truth will come out. That somone will be caught red-handed and that there will be no doubt about who the person is or for whom they are commiting such acts.

[Liberal Classic]

27. There's the answer

It's the Jews.

:puke:

[tom_paine]

15. Always though it was Comrade Putin's KGB Boys helping his Soulmate

You know, I think that was one of the moment Bunnypants* told the Truth.

He IS, in fact, the Vile Comrade Putin's SoulMate. They have both followed the identical playbook (Putin is much further along because the democracy he wanted to subdue was younger and weaker and easier to subdue) for creating the New Totalitarianism called "Managed Democracy".

http://www.sikhtimes.com/news_013004a.html

Which is EXACTLY what Imperial Bushevik-Occupied Amerika is moving towards, albeit mor slowly because the Old Ways and the Old Free People have to die off, leaving naught but Imperial Slaves.

[hunter]

16. I'll bet Putin would steal Bush's cookies if the teacher wasn't looking.

Watch your cookies, George!

[tom_paine]

23. LOL! Either would steal the other's cookies in a heartbeat

They ARE SoulMates, after all.

[oblivious]

17. Wow! This article explains so much on several different levels.

It always seemed inconceivable to me that the Iraqi government wouldn't have prepared for years for an occupation resistance. This confirms it. Recent bombings have shown considerable coordination. This is a formidable resistance that hasn't even begun to fight. 5000 kamakazies. 50 million weapons.

Is there any doubt in anyone's mind that they will win?

[newsguyatl]

19. a "government-related agency" probably killed him

after questioning him and getting too rough.

remember, they thought he was a terrorist sympathizer... for his past "run-ins" with other known terrorists. they got too rough, like they did with god knows how many other iraqi prisoners who're unaccounted for.

i know one thing for certain -- i watched the berg video again yesterday and he was already as dead as a door nail when he was squatted in front of those u-s militants, err, "terrorists"... THAT was as plain as day.

and something else i noticed this time (especially comparing it with kim sung il's murder --> the framing of the video was PERFECT... in tv and film, there's something called "rule of the thirds" for shooting video. whoever shot the video of nic, was abiding by these "rules" -- these very WESTERN rules. notice the video of sung il's captors is shot much more arabic-like. off centered, unframed.


interesting.

[Minstrel Boy]

21. newsguyatl, this is a deduction worthy of Conan Doyle:

and something else i noticed this time (especially comparing it with kim sung il's murder --> the framing of the video was PERFECT... in tv and film, there's something called "rule of the thirds" for shooting video. whoever shot the video of nic, was abiding by these "rules" -- these very WESTERN rules. notice the video of sung il's captors is shot much more arabic-like. off centered, unframed.

Thanks!

[maggrwaggr]

26. more b.s.

and racist to boot.

[stickdog]

36. It's neither bs nor racist.

It's weak circumstantial evidence that slightly prefers a Western camera person to a putative Islamic fundamentalist camera person.

Just like the shoes, beer bellies, postures and gold rings.

[stickdog]

37. It's neither bs nor racist.

It's weak circumstantial evidence that slightly prefers a Western camera person to a putative Islamic fundamentalist camera person.

Just like the shoes, beer bellies, postures and gold rings.

[Eloriel]

28. Newsguy

:hi:

Thanks for the insights. I have to say, tho, I'm a little taken aback to hear you talking about viewing both of those. I could not. I'm glad someone could, and I imagine workin with images all day long makes it both a little easier as well as something that "goes with the territory."

I know about the Rule of Thirds (it's in most books and even articles for taking better amateur pix, but you probably know that) but I would NOT have noticed it.

[kiahzero]

20. Wouldn't that support the hypothesis that it was Al Qaeda? (n/t)

[KoKo]

22. Interesting stuff here.

:kick:

[starroute]

29. Too many different weird things going on to be all one group

First there were the bombings. One suggestion about those that seemed plausible was that it was Chalabi trying to make a case that no one but him could govern Iraq -- plus a little bit of payback in the case of the Jordanian embassy. But Chalabi wouldn't have any motive for any of the other stuff.

Then there are the murders of doctors and (I think) other professionals. That one seems so mindlessly destructive of Iraqi society that I can't imagine who would be doing it. The US might have the motive, but it doesn't have that order of knowledge. The Israelis might want to kick Iraq back to the stone age but I can't imagine Jews murdering doctors. (Yeah, that sounds dumb, but it's true.)

And now there are these beheadings, which actually seem like something ordinary terrorists or insurgents might do. That is, there would be a rational purpose in trying to isolate the US and its stooges by killing or scaring away any Iraqis or foreigners who support them. But when taken in the context of those earlier, more bizarre sorts of violence, the beheadings may also be more than they seem.

I'm not prepared to do the intellectual gymnastics necessary to fit all these acts into a single scenario. I think it's a lot more likely that there are a variety of groups working behind the scenes in Iraq, each with their own agenda and a willingness to use violence to carry it out. But trying to make sense of the specifics is certainly beyond me.

[ConsAreLiars]

30. Facts matter - if you think the video was bogus you first must repudiate

all the clearly fraudulent "evidence" that is being used to justify that conclusion. Base whatever argument you want to make for that hypothesis on facts.

Right now every thread on this theory gets filled up with insane "facts" like "The SAME White Chair" and "The SAME Wall,"

And totally unsupported assertions found in the nether regions of the net like the "Kodak techs proved this or that."

And overtly racist claims that "real" Arabs or Iraqis or Muslims would NEVER have such white skin, wear a gold ring, or fidget, or stand in such a way, or be so fat or so fit.

And fantastically deluded "visions" of the content of the video (no blood, looked like a manikin, seeing the same guy as in the torture pix, military hats and such.

Strip all that crap away and what is left? I'm not sure, but as long as all those fictions remain part of the argument FOR believing the hypothesis, the argument remains non-credible and incoherent.

So -- What are the facts? Right now the fact is that the "evidence" being brought in favor of your hypothesis is so overwhelmingly bogus that is these faux facts alone are almost enough to prove the opposite.

So, what are the facts? Which bits of evidence do you find both valid and persuasive? Until you purge the bad "data" from the argument, it is impossible to make any kind of convincing case that video was anything other than what it seemed to be. Until you get the bad shit off the plate, the meal really will not be that appealing to anyone but coprophiles.

(edit: for clarity?)

[stickdog]

31. Here ya go

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1615190

1) Fat, white fidgety terra'ists wearing tennis shoes, the leader of which:

a) is wearing the sort of large gold ring that is expressly forbidden in fundamentalist Islamic communities, and

b) starts cutting the head, but is replaced (as the camera time signatures change) by someone wearing a white head covering when it's time to show off the head.

2) Out of synch soundtrack, out of focus camera work, low resolution and jumping time signatures across the entire video production -- contrasted with the nice framing of a trained Western cameraman.

3) A supposedly live beheading without any visibly spurting or draining blood -- conducted by supposed Arab terra'ists who obviously have no clue how to efficiently decapitate a living (or more likely recently killed?) mammal.

4) For the first time in recorded history, Arab terra'ists post a video of an atrocious murder on a website -- right in the middle of Bush Admin's most damaging national scandal, a scandal driven completely by its own disgusting pictoral and video imagery. And this amateur video somehow immediately becomes huge BREAKING NEWS across all corporate media outlets -- giving any putative terra'ists a boatload of free publicity before anyone has a chance to even begin analyzing the video's authenticity. Furthermore, US officials have seemingly no ability (or interest?) in tracking the video's posting back to whoever was responsible.

5) Berg had been held in US custody (in the Abu Ghraib prison?) for two weeks without charge or access to phones or legal help just days before he was last heard from. And the US now denies this, despite the family's insistence and overwhelming evidence that he was in fact held in US custody.

6) Berg just happened to have an FBI file because he somehow gave his email address to the guy the US government calls 9/11's 20th hijacker.

7) Berg was an American Jew traveling alone in Iraq without a job. He reported that he was climbing radio towers and taking lots of photos around the suburb of Abu Ghraib.

8) Ugly yellow paint, orange jumpsuits and, yes, white plastic Walmart chairs -- all of which appear in both the Berg video and the Abu Ghraib prison videos.

9) Zarqawi rises from the dead, has a letter fall into coalition hands that just happens to confirm everything BushCo is dreaming about the Iraqi situation, grows another leg, loses his Jordanian accent, puts on a forbidden gold ring, reads from a long speech that he's written in a mysterious mobius fashion across both sides of a single sheet of paper, decides to give up his hobby as a poison expert to get down and dirty with a dull knife, and carefully hides his face while screaming, "Yoo hoo - Zarqawi here!"

Don't forget to click here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1615190

to see the prime suspect.

[Must_B_Free]

32. Stick

this one was egged on by Freeper lurkers to muddy the waters.

There are circumstantial facts likelight skin, pot bellies, sneakers, yellow paint, white chair, gold ring, wrong headscarves, interpreted mumbles, video artifacts - these are extremely weak.

And then there are things that really merit investigation, like Freeper last to see him alive, work at Abu Ghiraib, prior contact with FBI, orange jump suit, lack of shave or haircut, US interrogation, denial of US involvement in his detention.

Basically there are good ones and bullshit ones. I think the freepers were egging on the bullshit ones to help us discredit ourselves.

[stickdog]

34. Yes, some of this circumstantial "evidence" is weak.

In and of themselves, some of these observations barely even qualify as circumstantial evidence.

But all evidence is relative. What's the evidence that it's Zarqawi in the video?

I really don't see any that isn't even weaker.

[Outward Bound]

33. I disagree,

1)There are MANY light skinned, overweight Middle Eastern people, and sometimes they fidget. Additionally, tennis shoes are worn in just about every country in the world.

a)It’s impossible to verify that it is gold from the video. Even if it is gold, this is a loosely held standard within the Muslim world.

b)Ermm, okay…Not really worthy of comment.

2)So the fact that it was a poorly produced video proves that an expert produced it so that it would look like an amateur had?

3)Not worthy of comment.

4)There is an established history of video-taped executions; remember Daniel Pearl? I am certain that every effort was and is being taken to track the video’s posting to it’s origin.

5)We know that he was NOT held in Abu Ghraib, but the denials from the admin about his status are questionable.

6)It appears that way

7)Not worthy of comment.

8)Iraqis have yellow paint and plastic chairs just like we do!

9)Rehash of all the above.

[stickdog]

35. What's the evidence that Zarqawi did it?

I'm waiting ...

You only made two comments with any merit:

I am certain that every effort was and is being taken to track the video’s posting to it’s origin.

Why?

We know that he was NOT held in Abu Ghraib.

How?

[Outward Bound]

39. I'm not saying that Zarqawi himself was responsible

I don't think that that is provable, unless a witness comes forward. I just do not believe the theories that I have read that suggest U.S. "Black Ops" types did this to take attention away from the * admininstrations problems. This act was commited by muslim extremists.

[stickdog]

40. And what evidence leads you to that conclusion?

Read this link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1615190

From post #30 in the above thread:

First, note that it's a lot more common (and simpler) for your business partner to be involved in planning your death than it is for some unknown cop who works in Mosul to tip off a terrorist mastermind about the details of your daily life hundreds of miles away in Baghdad. Second, note that Aziz claims he was the last one to talk to Berg alive. This is generally the place to begin any serious homicide investigation. Third, Aziz had far less ambiguous means (his mafia connections), motive (to get a lucrative seat at Iraq's interim government table) and opportunity (he'd already gained Berg's full trust) to off Berg than any putative terrorist mastermind, with or without any putative terrorist spy planted among the Mosul Iraqi police. Finally, the actual video file that was posted fits much better with an amateur dress up "beheading" than it does with an actual ruthless, real time beheading performed by actual radical Islamic fundamentalists.

You do realize, don't you, that many more victims are killed by people they know who try to make the crime look like the work of unknown assailants than actually get killed by unknown assailants?

[ConsAreLiars]

38. That kind of "argument"is exactly the problem

Give me one fact, not this "same white chair" and racist stereotyping silliness. One simple fact. All that stuff is easily debunked, and has been.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ConsAreLiars]

42. That was both impolite and irrelevant

You say "Yes, some of this evidence is very weak in and of itself." That is the problem.

Sure, there is NOTHING the Fundicons (on both sides of this religious "war") would not do - the skanks on both sides are utterly vile. You claim the video was a hoax. So far, not one fact to suggest this was any different that what happened to Pearl (or any number of citizens of Saudi Arabia other than state sanction). You're wasting your time with this unless you can come up with one piece of evidence that this was not just a normal and fully predictable consequence of Chimpy's insane worldview.

[stickdog]

47. What I said was not just relevant, but the very core of the issue.

There is no evidence that suggests that the video actually depicts Zarqawi cutting off Berg's living head other than the title supposedly attached to the video when it was supposedly posted on some website that was shut down before the public had a chance to investigate it.

So what makes you -- or anyone for that matter -- think this video is what BushCo claims it to be?

What I'm hearing from you is that you wouldn't put this past either side. And I agree. So we must evaluate all available evidence evenhandedly considering the fact that the real explanation for this video (and possibly, but not necessarily for the murder of Berg as well) could just as easily be BushCo psyops as terrorist psyops.

Within this context, the fact that Berg's business partner in Iraq was a criminal freeper gangster who was friends with Paul Wolfowitz and an anti-Hussein, pro-invasion media gadfly is compelling.

Within this context, the fact that Berg was released from US custody only after his family filed suit against the DOD and right before he disappeared is compelling. Within this context, the fact that the US government fervently denied the undeniable fact that US forces controlled at least the terms of Berg's detention is compelling.

Within this context, the fact that "Zarqawi" wrapped himself from head to toe even though he planned on claiming responsibility is compelling. Within this context, the fact that a CNN expert stated that the man in the video purported to be the Jordanian Zarqawi didn't speak with a Jordanian accent is compelling. Within this context, the fact that man in the video purported to be the amputee Zarqawi had two fully functional and natural legs is compelling.

Within this context, the fact that the "terrorists" didn't know how to efficiently behead their victim raises questions. Within this context, the fact that the terrorist who read the statement and started beheading had to be replaced by another when it was time to hold up the severed head raises questions.

Within this context the fact that there was no blood spurting and very little blood draining from the severed head raises questions.

Within this context, the fact that Berg was associated with the "20th hijacker" raises questions.

Within this context, even the fact that the video's setting resembled images from the Abu Ghraib prison raises questions.

[eridani]

45. Still, all this applies only to the Berg killing

The other two killings seem not at all related.

[stickdog]

48. Maybe, maybe not.

They were either much less obvious psyops (perhaps because the video evidence was not released to the public?) OR the real thing.

The Saudi killing of Johnson had its own slew of unanswered questions.

And we still don't the circumstances of the South Korean's capture in Fallujah.

[eridani]

51. True, but--

--consider how common copycat crimes are in general. It looks like this is going to be the new big thing in terrorism on both sides.

[Dover]

46. If Berg died in American custody, it won't be the first time this has

happened, apparently. I've forgotten the guy's name, but there was a story about some American dying in U.S. custody just this week wasn't there?

Some questions I have is WHY the Berg's don't seem to be questioning the official version of their son's death. I haven't seen anything to indicate they have any suspicions.

Also, did they do an autopsy on the body? If so, what were the results?

[JSJ]

50. us spec. ops turned contractors n/t