The Religious Right Brainstorming Thread

[Dob Bole]

I am trying to come up with a sound long-term strategy for defeating the religous right, so I would like any suggestions you could offer. First of all, the spread of fundamentalism is key, and one thing that I have noticed is that fundamentalists seem to own the majority of the Christian media. Please limit your suggestions to grassroots activities or restructuring of institutions; I don't like the idea of the government becoming involved in anybody's religion/unreligion.

They are clearly still a threat to us. In states like Georgia and Tennessee, I think they make the difference.

[salinen]

1. Good luck

They've beeb fucking up the world for many centuries.

[Slickriddles]

37. Here's a wierd idea

Steer them to Chap. 18 of Revelation and claim that it describes NY on 9/11. "Babylon, within the hour your destruction has come." Then suggest that the collapse of the two towers was obviously a miracle. How could anybody know that flying jetliners into the towers would cause them both to collapse?? The clincher? suggest that it might be time to become a Muslim. Does the Koran have any endtime prophecies??

[carpetbagger]

39. The planes missed Babylon.

They missed all of Long Island.
Won't work.

[0007]

44. Not that I know of right off hand, I do know that they say, 'ya get lucky

just before 'ya die. Would that qualify as an end time prophecy?

[Slickriddles]

47. Wierder still

The great thing about Revelation is that it is so multi-purpose. The symbols are so strange they can be twisted. But Chap. 18 specifically describes a city on the waters (4 of 5 boros are islands) where all the merchants of the world come to trade (a center of world trade? it ain't talking about Babylon L.I.) and goes on to describe this city's lewdness. 20 years ago when I first read this I thought oh! this points to NY (or could be made to seem like that.
Ah, I don't know maybe I'm crazy or wild-eyed.

[sandnsea]

2. Religion is personal

Not made to be a ruling form of government, it's intent is personal salvation. I saw a terrorism expert, a sociological one, and that's what he said about it and the way to fight it. Wish I could remember his name. But it's the same principle for our fundamentalists, we've got to get them back on personal salvation. According to Christians, Jesus was actually on the planet and He had no intention of setting up a government and taking over, why should they?

[NMDemDist2]

3. as long as they stay in the 30 percentile I'm gonna leave them alone

my hubby's cousin is one and there is no talking to him, the only hope is they move out of what Scott Peck calls formal/institutional stage two of spirituality. (Further Along the Road Less Traveled pg 122)

[Jesse_W]

9. So, how do we work to move them beyond a desire for state power?

The way their leaders convince their followers to work for state power is by claiming that various things, like the teaching of evolution, or gay marriage, are something they have to fight. How do we attack this connection?

[NMDemDist2]

38. not sure we can, we can only register and motivate people

who aren't (half the damn country)

they are a minority if we can galvanize the apathetic

hopefully MM's movie will help

[Nikki Stone 1]

4. Well, we could always bring back the lions.

:)

[delete_bush]

16. Tough to do....

don't forget about PETA, those RW'ers would cause serious indigestion problems for the lions.

[Nikki Stone 1]

29. Do they make Rolaids for lions?

:)

[JHBowden]

5. What constitutes a victory?

In the final analysis, this comes down to issues -- abortion, gay rights, creationism in science courses, et cetera.

The solution? Elect Democrats who don't appoint wackos on the bench.

[Jesse_W]

7. Agreed.

You're right, of course. The question of the thread, as I understand it, is how do we cut down the power of the "Religious Right" as they call themselves, while increasing the power of those who will elect such Democrats (or Republicans, for that matter.)

[Dob Bole]

12. A victory= releasing well-meaning Christians from their grip

Like I said, they control most of the Christian media and have taken over the Southern Baptist Convention. It's internal; that's why government involvement has to be limited.

And no! Who said that thing about lions? A persecution complex is what drives them in the first place!

[Jesse_W]

6. How were they beaten historically?

Hm. I know the forces of religious unreason were beaten back historically, i.e. the Enlightenment. How did they do it? Also, it would be good to further identify the forms of their political power: getting out the vote(i.e. they can swing large numbers of people), money raising, etc.

One thing I've heard is that they consider themselves embattled, and losing, oddly enough.

[JHBowden]

8. Booted out of their homelands

where they subsequently committed genocide on the other side of the globe.

[Jesse_W]

10. Huh? Who? -Oh, now I see.

Ok, I assume you were talking about the Pilgrims and the Native Americian genocide? True. But how did such fundies(or was it them?) end up creating a country with the First Amendment. That seems like a good question.

(Strike this out)Who was booted out? Where were their homelands?
Who did they commit genocide on? I was talking about European Christians. Pardon me if I'm missing something obvious...(end strike out)

[Nikki Stone 1]

13. Genocide (and Slavery) in the Americas

I think that the previous poster was talking about the "good Christians" who resettled here and eventually killed the natives here (Indians) and enslaved both Carribean and African natives.

[kiahzero]

18. Sorry, but you;'ve got your timing wrong

That happened after the Enlightenment.

[JHBowden]

21. The Puritans were getting the smackdown

well before James I and Charles I. They were responsible for much nonsense from Cromwell to the Salem witch trials.

[Nikki Stone 1]

27. Puritans kicked out pre-Enlightenment; Enlightment ideas fought religion

Timing wise, the wild-eyed religious types were kicked out of Europe during the wars of religion, which date from just after the Reformation in the 15th century up through the Enlightenment. Clearly, some of these expulsions were political depending upon whether Catholics or Protestants were in power. The Puritans were considered a political threat--witness Oliver Cromwell--and were kicked out for this reason as well.

What the writer was referring to as the Enlightenment "beating back" religion was more ideological. The enlightenment brought us science and the importance of observable and provable phenomena. Religion eventually crumbled for the educated due to the scientific method, but it took years and struggle.

THe genocide of people in the Americas began as soon as the Europeans arrived, from Columbus onward. Columbus, sailing for Spain, immediately sent back natives as slaves and claimed Hispanola, where he landed, as Spanish territory. This began a period of killing natives or making them slaves, which lasted through "Manifest Destiny" in the 19th century.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

11. I seem to remember a few years ago...

Ralph Reed, then executive director of the Christian Coalition, basically conceded defeat in the Culture War. Said the "Christians" (meaning HIS brand of Christians of course) had pretty much lost and should disengage from politics and concentrate on, I don't know, saving people's souls or something.

But then we all know what happened. I think we just have to keep working our asses off to keep them from enacting their views into law. A dem president appointing people who aren't religious zealots to the various federal courts would not only be a good start, I think it's actually pretty damn urgent at this point.

And while I'm here, I might as well engage in some gratuitous nader-bashing: Anybody who thinks there's no real difference between the D's and the R's is plainly ignorant of the importance of judge-made law in this country. 4 more years of Bush appointments to the federal bench means that in 10-15 years none of us will recognize the America we grew up in. You can take that to the bank.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Taylor Mason Powell]

17. Beautiful.

And welcome to DU! :hi:

[DrWeird]

25. Hi charlie. I like sarcasm too.

Glad you could join us!

[Cleita]

15. How well do you know your Bible? One thing I always found

out about religious Bible thumpers is that being able to go head to head with them on biblical references and the historical background behind the stories often makes them think twice or at least back off.

For instance, one religious type in a campground called me a sinner because I was drinking a beer at the time. I replied that if Jesus was against alcohol, he wouldn't have changed the water into wine at the wedding of Cana. This is regarded by theologians as his first miracle.

There is enough stuff in the Bible to contradict everything else that is said as truth. So rather than say they are wrong and the Bible is fairy tales, just use their own source to prove your points.

[Kimber Scott]

20. I heard a preacher say Jesus didn't turn water into wine.

It was grape juice, he said. They just "called" it wine. Now, how do you argue with that?

[Dob Bole]

22. Ask how people in the Bible became "drunken" on grape juice...

nt

[Cleita]

23. The Bible says wine. Any other interpretation is twisting the facts.

In any version before the Bible was translated into English it is wine, so don't be afraid to confront them with facts. I know they hate it but the fact is grape juice back in those days would have been contaminated in the heat in no time, so it was deliberately fermented for preservation as well as keeping it from making people sick.

[Dob Bole]

24. Ooh..call grape juice a "liberal interpretation"

That will really make their skin crawl.

[Cleita]

28. Well, when they get to the point that the veins start popping

up on their foreheads and they start calling you Satan's spawn, it's okay to tell them that they have to leave now because they are freaking you out and you are afraid for your safety.

[Kimber Scott]

53. It's the FACTS that are the PROBLEM! LOL!

I got into a serious debate about this issue with a member of this preacher's congregation. I think it was a Baptist church. My boyfriend, at the time, invited me to go watch him get baptized at this church. After the baptism, the preacher began sermonizing. He started screaming about how Madonna was a whore. I was a little shocked. I had never heard anybody call anybody else a whore in church and I've been to a few Baptist services over the years with other friends. Anyway, eventually, the sermon came around to the wine was really grape juice thing. Being a history buff, I couldn't let that one go by. I thought everybody knew drinks were fermented, if for no other reason than for storage in those days. On the way home from the church I commented on how funny it was the guy said wine was really grape juice in Jesus' time and made mention of the fermentation for storage thing and talked about how the Bible says something to the effect of you shouldn't be drunk when Jesus comes back, or he won't take you with him. Boy, my boyfriend came unglued. How dare I say such a thing. "It was GRAPE JUICE, damn you!" I actually got fearful. I asked him how he could believe anything the preacher said, when he lied on such a basic issue. Needless to say, I didn't keep that boyfriend.

The point I'm trying to make with this story and my previous question, I think, and sorry it's taking me so long to get to it, is facts really don't figure into these people's equation. Facts about history, facts about WMD, facts about Iraqi/al Qaeda connections, facts about how many votes were cast for each presidential candidate, etc., etc.. Certain people have a certain maniacal faith in their own religious dogma and they practice that same faith when it comes to their politics. Facts don't enter into the equation and therefore, they can't be persuaded based on provable truths. Only faith matters. If fact mattered, if truth mattered, these people would be die hard liberals. Jesus was a liberal, wasn't he?

[Nevernose]

34. The bible is very clear on alcohol (arguing w/ fundie tips, too)

An annotated, indexed bible comes in very handy. VERY handy. Many "new" Southern Babtists don't use the King James version anymore; they have a new, even more screwed up version that they claim is a more accurate translation. I still prefer it, though, as it sets a good baseline, is a pretty good translation, and has the flowery, Renaissance language that I like.

It's okay in moderation. According to the bible, it has legitimate uses, such as: offerings, drink, festive drink, disinfectant, drug, and medicine.

Of course, the bible also warns that wine leads a man to violence, "mocks a man," makes one poor, "bites like a serpent," impairs judgement, inflames passion, and takes away the heart.

Specific passages are avialable by request.

[Cleita]

36. My point exactly. The problem with fundies is they can't

read the whole thing without their heads exploding.

[Nevernose]

41. You know fundies who have READ it?

The only Christians that I know who have read it are Evangelical Lutherans, and vote, mostly, for Democrats. Very liberal people.

The only thing I don't miss about living in Texas is the fucking Talibabtists and their skewed, nonsensical, and above-all ignorant partial reading of the bible.

[Cleita]

45. Of course they haven't read it. It's been selectively

read to them by the ministries who don't mind twisting a proverb or two. What I meant by their heads exploding was that is what happens when they are confronted with the real Bible if they even bother to read a little bit.

[Nevernose]

54. No, no, no.

You're taking me too literally. That was supposed to be a joke (hard to do whilst typing on the internet). I have a strange sense of humor most times.

Of course they haven't actually read it. Otherwise, they'dbe Christians.

[realisticphish]

46. watch it

be careful with the King James version; the REASON its called the King James version is that King James fucked it up; he added stuff and took stuff out; though I agree with the preference for the flowery language, I'd check any references against several other versions

[Lydia Leftcoast]

55. King James had nothing to do with translating it

He merely commissioned it. He gathered together a committee of the finest scholars of ancient languages available in 1611 and told them to go for it.

The errors are due more to lack of knowledge (they had no access to Hebrew scholarly tradition, for example, because the Jews had been expelled from England) and changes in English than in King James weilding a blue editing pencil.

[Slickriddles]

49. Make mine Root Beer and Robitussin, Jesus

[Warpy]

19. Ask them why they support a man

who wages illegal war while cutting healt benefits for the poorest veterans, who talks of compassion while slashing WIC, the program that has done more to decrease mental retardation in poor children than any other.

Then tell them it's the most un Christian thing you've ever heard.

They hate having their noses rubbed in being un Christian.

In fact, there's been an Evangelical conference lately that has vowed to address poverty and environmental issues so they'll no longer be seen as just another arm of the GOP.

It's progress. Contribute to it. Read about it at:

http://www.e-church.com/Blog-detail.asp?EntryID=565&BloggerID=1

[procopia]

26. A state political candidate

recently left a message on my answering machine introducing himself. "I am a Christian," was the first information he gave about himself, followed by family and career details. Bible-belt Christians seem to believe that voting Republican is the Christian thing to do, and many don't differentiate between fundamentalist and mainstream candidates. Christians who are brainwashed by church events and religious programming are the reason Bush's support is as strong as it is, and they have a real influence in the Bible-belt states.

There are a few groups supporting church state separation, public schools, etc, that attempt to educate the public. Interfaith Alliance is a good one.

Theocracy Watch is a good source for educational materials and background information:

http://www.4religious-right.info/

[proud patriot]

30. The leaders they trust are MOONIES

convince them of this .

[procopia]

31. Rev. Moon Capitol coronation

Did you see this? Bizarre!

http://www.hillnews.com/news/062204/moon.aspx

[SalParadise]

32. HERE'S what you do...

Pick a fundie church near you each Sunday & listen for political endorsements of candidates - Don't know if you'd need actual recordings, but it wouldn't hurt obviously - report them to the IRS or FEC or whoever & get their tax-exempt status revoked.

[smirkymonkey]

33. What I'd like to know is, when is the damn Rapture coming?

That would solve most of the problem right there.

[Dob Bole]

35. Not likely to solve anything...

Assuming that there is going to be a rapture, why would Jesus want to call the likes of Falwell up and live with him every day, FOREVER?

I think that Jesus much rather prefers the company of tinky winky.

[shimmergal]

50. As I understand the "Rapture"

which is just based on a 19th century guy's interpretation of Revelation, after it happens, Jesus will be coming to earth to hang out with us libs and other non-fundamentalist types. Seems to me that would be a better place to be.

[Rabrrrrrr]

40. Yeah, because they'll be the only ones left!

Then they can do whatever the hell they want down here while the rest of us are hanging out drinking wine with Jesus.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. There are organizations that have the same purpose

They are goups of religious left who organize for the separation of church and state. They are forming coalitions to help the left get their message out, to pull in people who are looking for a congregation or organization to join so that they have a choice other than the fundy churches.
You can join one of those organizations and raise money for them or direct people to them, by links at web sites etc...

Here is one to start with http://www.faithfulamerica.org/home.htm

You can not reach people by trying to convince them not to believe in their religion. 1/3 off all evengelical Christians vote democratic. The percentages for mainstream christian denominations is even higher.
The thing about the religious left is that most of them are not interested in bashing the religious right. Though many work for organizations that promote the separation of Church and state. They just want to find a place they can be inspired by music, sermons, bible study and do some good works for other people.

We don't own the christian media, to us that is a waste of money. Money is to pay the light bills and send to people in Africa and Haiti.

Regurgitating everything we all learned in our college "World Religions 101" class (the way many people on this thread have) is not going to change anything.

If you truly want to help make a change, reach out to the people who are already addressing the problem.

[walldude]

43. Al Sharpton gave the best argument yet about religion

in a discussion last night with Jerry Falwell. I know the words Al Sharpton and brilliant statements don't always go together but he impressed the hell out of me last night. He had Falwell on the ropes. and he asked Falwell this: "Do you believe that the Lord gave man free will?" "Yes".. "Then man should have the right to choose..." That might be paraphrasing a bit but you get the picture. That can be the basic arguement against everything the RR stands for.

[NashVegas]

48. Rope is the Only Strategy You'll Ever Need

Give them plenty.

[GreenPartyVoter]

51. Defeat the religious right by talking up the

spiritual left.

Would Jesus love a liberal? You bet!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/liberalchristians.htm

[OnionPatch]

52. Maybe the religious left

needs to speak out a little more. I consider myself a Christian (a very unorthodox one, for sure) and I when I talk to other Christians, I just come out and tell them I think the right is wrong. I think we should let it be clear that there are plenty of Christian Democrats and that we believe our political philosophy actually follows the teachings of Jesus. They've already stolen our flag....I'm not going to let them steal my religion too.

[magpie]

56. 2 activities I have tried

1)Accept an offer to attend church with a fundie. Or a ladies' prayer group or bible school. Be welcomed and showered with wishes for salvation. When Q&A or prayer request time comes- Cry and flail about questioning why the house of God, or the Savior, or the bible inspires such hate and venom. Just keep repeating 'I don't get it' 'It seems so hateful' 'I can't be saved - I just don't get it'. 'This war, this President, it seems so mean, so hateful'. Just ramble and cry and carry on. Some people would have to act out this part. I usually watch Fox or listen to Rush Limbaugh before going then I don't have to fake it. I really do get that upset. It disrupts their agenda and stuns them into a really cool, silent mood. Then I use the opportunity to try to convert them. (Jesus was a wild-eyed liberal)
2) Intentionally block the junk food aisle at the grocer. Wait for Pastor Bob and family to be patiently waiting behind me. Start shaking and staggering while mumbling 'I'm scared. I'm so scared'. They will ask "what's wrong?" or "What are you scared of?" Whisper back "The right wing. The President. So mean. So evil. So scary. They've tried to steal the flag. They stole the election." Bust up their little safety zone of believing this crap can be flung with no reply. Make eye contact. Let them know you're giving them shit without taking any of theirs.
Churches and grocery stores. I've helped four people register as Dems this month. It's good, clean, grassroots activism.