Just blasted a freeper and probably soon to be former friend...

[sfwriter]

Hi all,

I just got a letter of condolence from a friend of mine, who has turned into a Freeper over the years. He posts his opinions at http://lesjones.com/">http://lesjones.com/. Over the years I've hired this guy to work for me twice and actually thought highly of him until I read some of his blog posts. I'm sure he expected a touchy-feely response to his congrats and condolences over my new baby and the death of my father.

But after reading what he thought of mine and my father's opinions and our political views, I just couldn't stomach his words. They seemed two-faced. This is what he got instead.

**************

Thanks for the kind words, and I hope for the best for your family.

I hope the hospital takes better care of your mom than they did my dad. Their treatment cost father three weeks of life and a chance to see his granddaughter.

They were so concerned with the rules for the insurance company that they delayed by several days treatment that would have kept him alive. In fact, they had to wait until he developed pneumonia before they admitted him to the hospital. Then, understaffed, he had to wait two days while the hospital could find someone to drain 1600ccs of fluid from his lungs. By then his left lung had collapsed. That severely hampered him. He made it three weeks more, and Emma came four weeks later.

Back when my mom was a nurse, that procedure, called a thoracentisis, would have been done in the emergency room.

Of course his HMO shows a healthy 28% profit, which judging from your blog is the important thing. That profit motive will keep them providing this crappy level of service. (Never mind that your analysis was based on the fallacy that healthcare in this country somehow obeys Adam Smith's rules of a free market. It does not. It motivates healthcare organizations to maximize profits by serving the healthy and the wealthy.)

For my money, I'll fly to Canada where at least the doctors and hospital will be more concerned with my treatment than my insurance when they look at me. For millenia, the people who treated the sick and injured did it mostly for humanitarian or personal reasons. Now they do it for a BMW and a house in the country.

I can't tell you what a disappointment I felt when I read your blogged opinions. That you would actually defend the Iraq war by saying we hadn't killed as many Iraqi's as Saddam, that you would find comfort in a comparison of liberal patriots to an abusive spouse both came as a shock to me. In the first case, I found the utter lack of empathy and understanding of the cost of those deaths to our cause to be stunning. In the second, I found the comparison to be both offensive and divisive. As if those liberals who served their country like, say John Kerry, or my father, had less claim to their criticisms and opinions than right-wing blowhards of the "my country right or wrong," or "love it or leave it" variety.

Crissy couldn't believe it when I told her about your blog. Neither of us could bring those opinions in line with the Les Jones who once took us hiking in the Smokies and brought us to a Cosby speakeasy.

We are at a crossroads where we decide weather America will be a belligerent, polarized, "might-makes-right," society or a nation guided by high ideals, compassion, reason and the rule of law. You are siding with those who would make our nation into something more sensitive to the rule of the powerful than the rule of law or even the people.

-Sandy

[BillZBubb]

1. Great letter!

Condolences on your loss, and congrats on the new baby.

I've found it is impossible to be friends with any Freeper, including relatives. I can be acquaintances, but that's about it. Somehow someone worshipping a "philosophy" of selfishness doesn't quite strike me as a good bet for friendship.

[NMDemDist2]

2. it's so sad isn't it

and my sympathies on the loss of your father

I would be interested to see his response as well

and BTW that baby is Beautiful!! Congratulations! :bounce:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

3. Beautiful

My condolences for your loss, and my best wishes on your newborn.

DTH

[kaitykaity]

4. If you value the friendship

then you have to stop talking about politics.

Just be honest with yourself and don't use this supposedly
new "freeperism" as an excuse to throw the guy over.

What's more important? Being friends or being right?

[DulceDecorum]

10. Some of those people want us dead

Ann Coulter has said quite a bit on the subject
and so have all the other rightwingnut talk show hosts.

Why clutch the asp to your breast -- unless you harbour a serious deathwish?

[kaitykaity]

16. Person first, FReeper second.

I look at the person first especially if the
person is already my friend.

I got an agreement from my FReeper friend. We
don't discuss politics, and so we saved our
friendship.

[DrBB]

43. I understand, but I think you're wrong about this

I think things like this letter can be transformative. I'll never forget, back when I was a teenager, spouting off some homophobic crap and having my friend bring me up short, tell me he didn't share those opinions and had been involved in gay rights activities in his school. What a difference that made, not just in shocking me out of an idiotic, immoral and unthinking bigotry I had absorbed, but in making me realize that all received opinions need to be examined from the outside. I've never been the same.

This letter may not lead to that kind of metanoia, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. Learning that people you like and respect are shocked and disgusted by your bigoted, or in this case, jingoistic opionions can be earth-shaking. I understand your desire to value a particular friendship more highly than political agreement, but it's a case-by-case thing. I can't imagine a person such as Sandy describes getting this letter and not experiencing some doubt about his positions. It takes real courage to do something like this, and I respect it.

[kaitykaity]

46. If it's presented in such a way as

"I care about you and this disturbs me becasue . . . " instead
of "How can you be such a dumbass?"

[sfwriter]

65. I think you should actually READ the letter then...

I did essentially say I cared and this disturbs me.

[Eloriel]

23. What "value" could there be in a friendship like that?

And frankly, when the country is in as bad -- and DANGEROUS -- a shape as it is now, speaking up is the most important thing, IMO. We for too damn long have sat here and taken it on the chin, played nice, bitten our tongues, and for what? Just so they could get stronger and stronger.

This Les jerk needs to hear that there are people he may care about who have strikingly different view points. SHE isn't throwing him over, but if he gets enough cognitivie dissonance as a result of hearing her opinions and views, then he'll either rethink his own or throw her over as a friend -- which would be no loss at all, IMO.

It's not like this is someone who is ill-informed, after all. You can give the brainwashed a bit of a break for being brainwashed. You don't give the smug, self-righteous, willfully ignorant any slack. Not unless you want to give the country away to them too.

ENOUGH!

[kaitykaity]

25. So being "right" is more important.

I've found it's much more effective to let people like this
come to me asking questions. There's a way to get them to
do that, but it's harder than trying to pound somebody over
the head.

All that does is get them to dig their heels in and be
defensive, and then the war of ideas and the friendship
is lost. Talk about lose-lose.

My personal struggle with my FReeper friend doesn't
have the global impact on the struggle that you suggest.

[NuttyFluffers]

45. expression of disappointment != beating over head.

not all criticism is counter-productive. it is through criticism that we can hone ourselves into a better version of ourselves without suffering the slings and arrows from experience.

if you value your friendship you must also be able to be cruel to be kind. it works both ways.

and from what i've just read in this letter it is a *far cry* from belligerance.

reactionary passivity is *just as evil* as reactionary aggression. never forget that. sometimes you have to be assertive and stress your existence too.

[kaitykaity]

48. It's kind of like trying to help an alcoholic who doesn't

want help. There's not a lot to be done if the person
isn't open for it.

If this person is a real friend of the FReeper, then he
has to decide when to fish and when to cut bait -- can this
friendship be saved? Is it worth being saved?

Me and my FReeper friend have little signals when one or the
other of us has strayed too far into forbidden territory.
Maybe an arrangement like that would work here.

[NuttyFluffers]

52. yes, your relationship sounds healthier.

they will have to cross a similar bridge. hopefully their freeper friend isn't so far gone that they've lost all sense of perspective.

[Eloriel]

53. Maybe you missed a key point from her thread

This isn't just any old neighbor or coworker, this person also writes a blog. She was responding re his BLOG.

Frankly, that makes a pile of difference to me. This person is influencing and/or validating horribly wrong, divisive, immoral, and frankly dangerous attitudes and ideas. He is influencing an unknown number of OTHERS. These aren't just casual conversations around the water cooler.

Now, if you're comfortable just being nicey-nice with rightwing propagandists and codependently refusing to speak your truth because it might "upset" someone, fine.

And yes, it's not necessarily the best thing to bop people over the head -- but she was quite gracious, if firm. She has a right to speak her truth -- he has the right to accept it or reject it.

For ME, a friendship like that is not worth having -- unless the person who has exhibited those behaviors is willing to listen. Others may differ, and that's their prerogative. And it's not really, in my mind, a question of "would you rather be right or be popular?" she IS right to start with, and he's terribly, terribly, DEMONSTRABLY wrong, and contributing to the country's potential demise.

[kaitykaity]

59. I am not "nicey-nice with a rw propagandist".

I am FRIENDS with a PERSON whp happens to have diffent
political views than mine.

The OP made reference to a personal relationship with
the blogger, so it is not as distant as you would make
it sound.

And finally, at least I am not so closed-minded that
I force my friends to toe a particular ideological line
before I consent to gift them of my friendship.

As a matter of fact, this friend of mine is so angry
with Bush and is economic policy that she and her FReeper
husband are now ABB. I didn't have to do anything except
give her objective information. She came around to the
rest of it on her own.

So I think my way works. All your way does is piss
people off. (Me included.)

[sfwriter]

66. If les chooses not to be friends because he and I disagree...

Then he isn't much of a friend. I'm just not a good German, sorry.

[kaitykaity]

69. It's about time YOU showed up.

Don't INSULT ME by putting words in my mouth. I never said
you were a GOOD GERMAN.

Sometimes the rules against PAs here are a real hindrance.
Then I could tell you how I REALLY FEEL about the way you
insulted my genuine effort to tell you about my experience
with a FReeper friend.

(Insert what I can't say here.)

[Kanary]

81. Sometimes you have to back away from alcoholics who don't want treatment

and the same with addicts, abusers, etc.

Y'know, we all have our own views, our own backgrounds and needs, and we do the best we can. You have your way, and the poster has his/her own way. Neither is right or wrong in all situations...... We think things through and do what we can with the situation.

I've lived long enough to finally realize that there are usually no absolutely right or wrong solutions. You have yours, others have theirs.

Live and let live.

Kanary

[Grins]

35. You're right.

Did this clown think of the poster when he wrote his drivel? Care about his feeling/politics? Ha! *iss on him.

As for killing "fewer" Iraqi's than Saddam - isn't that the friggin point? We're NOT supposed to!! Even this idiot has to admit that the White House (now) says we came to Iraq to "liberate" them from that. Had you come up with an argument like that as a kid ("...but, Johnny did it worse..") your parents would have gone nuts on you. What's with these idiots?

[leftofthedial]

41. neither

What's more important? Being friends or being right?

being free is.

[kaitykaity]

47. Oh, what

simplistic palaver.

[leftofthedial]

50. a fascist for a friend is a comment on you

as much as it is on the friend.

[kaitykaity]

51. A judgmental attitude is a hallmark of our enemies.

Also, dehumanizing the "other" in this manner is what they
do best.

I'd resist the temptation, if I were you.

[Eloriel]

54. Calling a person a fascist is hardly dehumanizing

It's unflattering, but sometimes the truth IS, you know.

[kaitykaity]

58. Name-calling is by it's nature

dehumanizing. It's I-It rather than I-Thou.

[leftofthedial]

62. I'm glad you're not me

if fascism does not merit judgement or a distinction between "us" and "them," nothing does.

Intolerance of fascism is not temptation, it is opposition to death, lies, fear and hatred.

[kaitykaity]

71. So am I.

Okay go ahead. Be just like them. Be intolerant.
Take their politics and put it ahead of them as people.
Make yourself a carbon copy/mirror image of their
dysfunction.

I don't care if it gives you the warm fuzzies to feel
so morally superior to our enemies. It's still wrong to
dehumanize them.

[leftofthedial]

72. ah. the old "if there is one thing I can't tolerate, it's intolerance"

conundrum.

FWIW, I don't feel any warm fuzzies about any of this. I claim no moral superiority to anyone.

I have known fascists and lived where fascists held power. They don't require understanding, tolerance, coddling or friendship. They require elimination. It is not a moral judgement. It is a matter of survival.

Those who quietly support them are as much of the problem as the ones weilding truncheons--and are harder to deal with.

[kaitykaity]

75. So I'm the intolerant one.

Isn't that just a laugh. And you absolutely do claim
moral superiority. "I'm right, they're wrong, they're
the enemy, they have no redeeming human qualities, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah."

I don't support my friend's politics. I am her friend and
I love her as a person.

You have no righ to preach to me about being an appeaser
because I refuse to make her agreement with me politically
a condition of our friendship.

We can't solve this thing, this problem, by slapping
people in the face. That just takes us down to the level
of the real enemy.

You know, the people who think of us as subhuman "liberal
communist." (Insert "fascist" here. It's the same
construction.)

[leftofthedial]

77. kaitykaity, you are not intolerant

I'm sorry if you thought I called you that. I'm just trying to explain my lack of compassion for those who support regimes that destroy the planet and murder tens of thousands of people. I call these supporters--no matter how bland and seemingly benign their support--"accomplices." And no, I don't have tolerance for them any more than I have tolerance for the criminals in the bushgang who put Halliburton's profits above the law and above the lives of thousands of people.

Whether they personally order the death machines to start chewing up humanity or they just help keep those in power who do, I don't want them as friends and I don't advise others to keep them as friends either.

If someone can demonstrate that progressives have a clear history and practice of murder, they SHOULD call us enemy. But we don't. Fascists do. The neocon-dominated GOP in the United States, under the bushgang, DO have a clear history of murder, oppression, lawlessness and corruption. That's what fascists are and that's what they do. How many dead in Iraq? How many dead in Afghanistan? How many trillions looted from the treasury? How many jobless? How many homeless? Everyone in the bushgang and everyone who helped them seize and maintain power has blood on their hands.

My contempt for them is not at all equivalent--either morally or logically--to some slobbering dittohead calling us progressives the names of their favorite demons and accusing us of things for which there is no evidence.

[kaitykaity]

79. Now you're talking my language.

And I agree with everything you said about their ideology
and their leadership. Unfortunatly we are not talking about
the ideology and the leadership. We're talking about regular
people.

If we were to do as you advise and dismiss the Thugs' misguided
followers as beneath our contempt and beyond any possible
salvation, then there would be no point in continuing the
fight, now would there?

Not everyone who wore a Nazi uniform was a Himmler or
a Goering. Not everyone who believes the very skillful,
very polished, very well-moneyed Republican Noise Machine
is beyond our ability as compassionate liberals to reach,
to educate, and to enlighten in any possible way we can.

One sure way to fail at that task is to do as you suggest.

[leftofthedial]

82. give the "regular people" the opportunity

to learn about the consequences of their actions. Inform them, offer them alternatives.

If they still persist in enabling the rise of fascism, they are the enemy.

That's the way I feel.

[kaitykaity]

83. And this I will agree with.

Just so long as the attempt is made to reach them
in whatever way that works best.

[Tyler Durden]

5. I applaud your bravery and strength of character.

The right wing will have their way if we let them, and the coddling of the FReepers is to assist them in their efforts.

I am sorry for your loss, but I urge you to be strong as you have been in this instance.

[Jack Rabbit]

6. Congratulations on the baby

!!
My condolences about your Dad.

[Zen Democrat]

8. I've had a similar experience with a cousin.

This cousin bombarded me with ugly e-mail about Bill and Hillary and Al and Tipper and Ted, et al, for years. Since 2001 she's sent me glowing, patriotic e-mails about The Great Bush. I ignored everything. Just deleted and went on my way.

About a month ago, I got one from her with a supposed letter from a medic in Iraq who went on and on about how the media is lying to us and giving us a distorted view of the wonderful things happening in Iraq. It was talking about girls now being allowed to go to school and about kids learning basic hygiene such as washing their hands. etc.

Well, I responded with a list of the names of our soldier who have died and asked her if this wasn't too high a price for kids washing their hands. (Not to mention that girls have ALWAYS gone to school in Iraq and there are women doctors, engineers and scientists in Iraq.) I asked her to please not send me any more Republican propaganda.

She didn't respond. I ran into her at the movies recently and she turned around and pretended not to see me. Okay, they can dish it out, but they can't take it. I, for one, feel relieved that I don't have to suffer her e-mails any more.

[Geo55]

13. I don't have to suffer her e-mails any more

I've had the same experience with a sister....the last thing she sent me was pictures of the torture which made light of it like Limbaugh.
It was the last straw....told her never to send further emails with this kind of ideology.....things have been chilly.
Isn't it a shame ...the way this horror has divided us?
The Bush UNITER , indeed

[sfwriter]

21. Yeah...

Then they get offended when we find that offensive... Sheesh.

[sfwriter]

17. Thanks....

Good to hear from you.

[Rose Siding]

7. What a SWEET baby.

Thanks for linking the pix. I'm sorry about your dad.

Great letter. Appropriate target, effective argument and far more motivation than anyone should have to bear.

Sweet baby.

[wellstone dem]

9. I just wanted to tell you

Congratulations on a beautiful baby.

and

I extend my deepest sympathy on the death of your father. I went to F9/11 with my Dad today, he is 84 and I know each day is a gift.

[Sugarbleus]

11. Condolences on your Dad and Congrats on the baby...

I applaud you for making your voice heard in this matter. It had to be difficult because he was your friend.

If this were any other time you might not have to say what you did, but the times we are enduring at the moment call for our voices to be heard. If good fortune is on your side,perhaps you'll be able to make amends with your friend down the road.

I, too, am finding it difficult to "hold my piece/peace" when confronted by someone I KNOW is a raging ultra right wing conservative. I feel I MUST say, as calmly and clearly as possible, what's on my mind....what MY opinion is based on what facts I know and according to my belief system. We cannot keep our mouths shut just because a person is a "friend" when that friend is "SPEWING" hateful, narrowmined, 'tear the constitution down' type rhetoric.

It's one thing to be a blind, mild mannered republican; quite another to be a loud, blogging, fire breathing, liberal hating ultra conservative promoter of selfishness: like Limbaugh, SAvage, and all the rest. Like Michael Moore, people who put their opinions OUT THERE need to realize they will get a reaction to it. My opinion.
Sorry it worked out this way for you... Peace

[bushwakker]

12. More Americans being united by AWOL

At this point I can barely be civil to the RWers I know.

[sfwriter]

27. I know...

How can you not voice your opinions? It's not like I've decided to confront him about what flavor ice cream he likes. I really can't look at him without thinking of the opinions he so vehemently espouses.

When he mentions my father, all I can think is my friend here has said men like my father are like spouse abusers for being patriots and liberals. He thinks the crappy care my father received from his HMO and hospital is a good thing and my father should have shopped around for service on his deathbed. He thinks my father was crazy for expecting the United States to be more than a murderous pack of thugs in Iraq.

I really don't think my friend associates the things he says with the REAL people in his life, but I do. If he wants to espouse murder and divisiveness, then he should know that I am offended by it.

[bushwakker]

34. A "pro-life" friend of mine

advocates dropping multiple MOABs on Fallujah. I just shake my head.

[Grins]

38. Care from an HMO is a good thing?

He said that to you? What a jerk (sorry I'm referring to your friend, but he is a jerk).

Been through that when my sister died from cancer a few years ago. Insurance companies added a huge burden on everyone, esp. my sister. Bills were in the 10's of thousands to us, even with insurance.

Really put it to one of my right wing, ex-military associates when he bitched about the feds and VA cutting HIS medial benefits and increasing co-pay. Told him about my sister and compared it to a Colonel we both know that had the same cancer my sister had. His care costs at Walter Reade? - Would you believe $65?!! Total! And none of that calling an insurance company before ANY procedure or visit is done. After his death, and unlike my sister, the government buried him for free.

I regret that I didn't save the links, but you can send him this about HMO's and their funding of right-wing repukes. Ask him if her really thinks HIS interests are in good hands?
-----------------------

Senator Frist’s family business is HCA Inc., in which Frist holds millions of dollars in stock in a blind trust. The Frist family made its millions by tightly controlling health care access for millions of Americans through HCA. The basic premise behind HCA, writes Jonathan Cohn in The New Republic, is "that the profit motive will serve the public interest, in this case by forcing the providers of health care to be more economically efficient."

In the New England Journal of Medicine: HCA (then Columbia/ HCA) "systematically downsized expensive sources of labor costs - chiefly nursing and social workers - even though they were critical for patient well-being." As HCA made millions for its shareholders, often at the expense of employees and patients, it faced down numerous federal criminal and civil charges in its 34-year history – and paid out more than $1.7 BILLION in fines to atone for its misbehavior. Charges against HCA included billing the government for services ineligible for and inflating expenses, and granted doctors partnerships in company hospitals as a kickback for the doctors referring patients to HCA.

"Frist ran for the Senate to protect the family fortune," Max Fine, a Nashville-based benefits consultant and former director of the Committee for National Health Insurance, told Revolution. "He placed himself on two committees with jurisdiction over health care – Finance and Health, Education, Labor and Pensions.

Frist's staff director on the Senate public health subcommittee: Dean Rosen, a former general counsel of the Health Insurance Association of America. Fair and balanced.

Frist threw his support behind a Bush administration proposal to make a drug benefit to Medicare patients contingent on their enrollment in a managed care health system, i.e., like his own HCA!

In the rush to pass the homeland security measure in the waning days of the 107th Congress, Frist engineered an amendment to shield pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly from legal liability over Thimerosal, a preservative used until recently in children's vaccinations that has been linked to the development of autism. The amendment was jettisoned in January, just as the Federal Election Commission was releasing reports that showed Eli Lilly's political action committee contributed more than $100,000 in the last election cycle to GOP candidates shepherded by Frist.

[sfwriter]

42. Jesus...!

I can't understand why people think Republicans are even remotely acting in their best inerest.

[Hammie]

14. Good Job!

Pissing away a friendship because the guy has political opinions that you don't share is brilliant. That kind of maturity and judgement will come in handy as a parent.

Please, don't forget to post what happens when you find out your kid has a mind of it's own.

[Stocat]

15. WTF?

Someone taking a very polite but firm stand is not blowing away a friendship. That is morality my friend, and to chastise him for it, is beyond contempt. Read his letter, it doesn't call for the end of the friendship. It's in the other guys court to do what he wants, and in my experience, they don't want your friendship afterwards. If they are true friends they will respect your opinion.

[sfwriter]

18. This friend of mine posts to public forum...

I just chose to give him my honest opinions directly. I hope my child shares that trait of honestly. Or perhaps you think I should raise a "good german?"

When Emma exibits a mind of her own, I'm sure to voice my approval or disapproval. What kind of monster would try to keep their children from knowing what values they cherish or disapprove of?

Like my friend, of course, she is welcome to use her own judgement.

Thank you for sharing such an INSIGHTFUL comment. You must be a paragon of parenthood. ;-)

[AP]

22. Great email. It's important that people are held accountable like that

for their opinions.

[Kipepeo]

19. wow

I think taking a stand for your beliefs and sharing them with those - *especially* those - close to you or those who have been close to you is something I admire in people and I think takes a strong character. Please don't tell me that choosing to remain silent is somehow more mature or moral than speaking up and sharing yourself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

20. My, what an interesting and caring response to someone that you...

...will NEVER be able to call a friend. Good job!

Pissing away a potential friendship because the guy has sensitivities that you may never understand is completely amazing to me. That kind of maturity and judgement will come in handy when, or if, you become a parent. If you are ALREADY a parent, I wish your child, or children, the best...they'll need it.

[AP]

26. How much of a friend is someone who's nice to your face but turns around

and vociferously advocates policies which make your life miserable?

[tkmorris]

24. Great Goddess.......

Do you belong to the same political party I do? Yes, by all means, let's not tell our verbose friends what WE think lest we endanger our friendship. Never mind how loudly they espouse their point of view, WE should cower and say nothing, so as to not offend. Yikes!

Anyway, it IS a beautiful baby, Congrats.

[Eloriel]

55. It's called "codependence"

also "people pleasing"

It's not healthy (not "bad" just sick). Many people like this grew up in alcoholic or otherwise highly dysfunctional families. Ultimately, they can be very manipulative, and rarely very honest -- both of these things because they tell others what they "think" they want to hear, not what's in their hearts. Sometimes they've been like this so long they don't even know, can't get in touch with, their real, honest selves. Like I said, unhealthy.

Note: I'm speaking in generalities, NOT specifically about the DUer you're responding to. Sadly, I see way too much of this people-pleasing "what will the freepers think?" attitude at DU.

[Piperay]

61. I found out the hard way that having to swallow

that kind of crap from a so-called 'friend' is only going to bite you in the ass in the long run. These 'friends' will only tolerate you and be your 'friend' when you keep your mouth shut and act like you go along with all their fascist crap. The minute you express an opinion of your own they are the ones who will 'kick you to the curb' right away. NEVER again will I sit back and let some RW asshole spot all their garbage just because they're a supposed 'friend'. :argh: :mad:

[fudge stripe cookays]

63. sf wrote an eloquent letter

that expressed hurt feelings and anger over someone else's posts on a public forum.

"Les" is an ass, and there are plenty of us on this board who have cut off connections with "friends" who continually try to feed us this drivel.

I think SF DID do a good job. And will raise a decent kid.
FSC

[Delano]

28. Nice response.

So many once-good Americans have apparently shut their mental faculties down in response to the trauma of 9-11 and endless media conditioning.

I hope more of them continue to wake up, and your message is a good start - I find it much harder to contain my anger at such people - good job!

[MUSTANG_2004]

29. Some unasked for advice

After my mother died, I found myself responding to things with too much anger. This situation with your friend might be a case where you'll see things differently in 6 months.

You might want to take this into account and, after writing something like the letter to your friend, hold it for a week and then decide if you still want to send it.

[qanda]

30. I applaud you and yet I feel your timing may have been a little off

I don't know if what he sent you was political in nature, and if it was then I apologize. However, if it was not, then he did not deserve that response.

If I sent someone something personal and heartfelt I would not expect to be attacked for my political views in return. If you cannot allow your friends to have their own thoughts and opinions without expecting them to be the same as yours then you may be losing a lot of friends over the course of your lifetime.

I know that you must be going through a very emotional time right now with losing your father and having a baby, but I think your friend may be owed an apology.

jmho

[sfwriter]

67. The last discussion we had was over the Iraq war...

In March of 2002. I chose to use this contact he initiated to tell him what I thought, while he was listening. I suppose I could have waited, but I've read what he thinks of me and my friends, my family, and liberals in general on a weekly basis for years. the sudden wave of compassion just struck me as false after that.

[librechik]

31. maybe the honest opinion of a trusted friend

will shake him into thinking about his opinions and their consequences.
You were kind to offer it.


But I doubt he will ever change his mind.

God bless your family, you seem so much good in your life to cherish--don't worry about the things you can't keep.

[alittlelark]

32. I haven't lost any friendships due to RW propaganda

But I did lose my mother. She has become rabidly RW Fundamentalist - she has lost all of her children, many of her relatives, and most of her friends.

She believes that Muslims are taking over our country, and that B*sh is our only hope.

I'm sure some would flame me for allowing her loss - but she has become toxic.
I don't want to hear about my eternity in hell anymore.
I will not allow her to attempt to convert my children into that 'Army of the Lord' group

She has lost her moral bearings, and believes that all of her children are hell-bound.

I FULLY understand why friendships could be lost over this.

[MUSTANG_2004]

33. But unless there's more to it

his friend wasn't pushing any beliefs. He just sent a letter offering congrats and condolences.

[cookiebear]

36. I lost a best friend over similar things ...

She and her husband have become Left Behind Pro-Israel Lunatics. They believe we must obliterate all Muslims to save Israel. The husband believes he was victim of a targeted bio-agent attack :eyesrollingaroundwildly: They see Muslims and Saddam behind every tree.

They're insane.

I was not only patient but accepting of their conservatism until I received a completely insane email from them outlining the end of the world, Israel as the ONLY thing that's importance and the evil of all Muslims. I sat and stared at it for several hours, then carefully, quietly and completely ended all contact.

I believe my friendship with people like that is no different than complicity with their beliefs, as thjey're so totally unaccepting of any viewpoint and had begun twisting my own words and beliefs into support for nuking the ME. There is no talking to these people --- very very scary.

[sfwriter]

44. But it is so two faced...

To offer those good tidings while telling others that people like my father were like spouse abusers, or espousing the view that the healthcare system that hastened my father's death was better than one where he would recieve care.

He didn't make specific comments, but I really feel he ought to be aware of the faces that go with faceless groups he condems. I can't seperate his comments from the impact on my life of the actions he supports. He deserves to know how I feel.

Otherwise, I do what, just write him off? Pretend that his point of view is valid and shield him from teh effects and consequences of those beliefs?

[Eloriel]

56. Masterfully said

You are exactly right. And not only does he deserve to hear your thoughts, YOU have the right to speak your truth if done respectfully, which you most certainly did.

And belated condolences and hearty congratulations from me too.

[laylah]

37. I think your response to your

"friend" was appropriate, assertive and honest...truth always is.

You have a beautiful daughter!

I, too, lost my dad when my youngest was but 5 weeks old. We were in Colorado and Dad was in Missouri. The last time I spoke with him was Father's Day 1984. I was pregnant and doctor advised me not to travel. Dad had had a stroke as a result of an operation so he really couldn't talk...he took my sobbing for about 30 seconds and handed me over to mom. Fathers Day hasn't been the same for me since. He passed 8 weeks later, a day before I was scheduled to fly to see him with his new granddaughter.

That said, condolences for your loss and cheers for your daughter. The pain of losing your dad and him not being able to meet his beautiful grandbaby will lessen in time...He's there, though...he does see her...you can count on that.

:hug: Jenn

[sfwriter]

70. I know how you feel...

I'm very sorry for what you went through, and believe me, I understand. It is so hard to talk when you are far away like that. Dad got some sobbing from me as well.

I was lucky enough to go back to Tennessee and spend two weeks with my father, just two weeks before he died. I consider that a blessing.

[merh]

39. My condolances on your loss and congratulations on the birth of your

child. Your letter is terrific. The sad thing about this admin is how it has polarized our world, not such the world abroad, but the simple worlds we live in daily. I have had to leave family gatherings because nuking the ragheads becomes the topic of conversation and the "answer to our woes". My prayers are with you and yours.

[thethinker]

40. Thanks for sharing this letter

I had a drink night before last with 3 of my female friends. Two of them are die hard Republicans.

I mentioned I would be seeing F9/11 last night. Two of them went into a tirade about Moore telling lies, etc. etc. I held my ground. One, I will call Nancy (because that is not her real name) said "I am so worried about people lying about our president". I responded with, "You'd better be worrying about our country, not our president". She stomped out of the bar.

Yesterday she called. She had done some thinking. I asked if she was calling because she wanted to go to the movie with me. We both had a big laugh over that. We decided we would be friends even though we have different political beliefs.

I live in Texas. My friends hear nothing on radio but Rush Bimbo and other right wing nut cases. They hear all the ditto heads calling in to agree with Rush. The past four years I have said very little to them about politics. But I am fed up with being silent. My friends need to be exposed to a different point of view. In Texas people are not respected unless they stand their ground, so to speak. In the macho world that many of these people come from, polite silence is not respected.

I am friends with many republicans. But they have to understand I have different opinions. I think they all know I am extremely well read and if they start an argument they aren't going to win it.

If friendship is real, it can stand some difference of opinions.

[vetwife]

49. Sorry for your loss..I just lost my Mom and congrats on the Baby

I can tell you first hadn a friend of mind of over 40 years and I have a strained relationship over her Bushie views and we are drifitng further and further apart. We don't talk politics but everyone knows what I am about and they pushed us to no middle ground. Its with us or against us. So they rolled the ball in that corner. We put up with the Clinton bashing but when people start dying because of one man's administration and his arrogance..Something has got to change. I can no longer have respect for standing behind someone who shares all of those views. Did it change us? Yes. I can't stand Bush for that ! What is happening is people are showing what they really felt all along. They were just not as open. Now they are.

[Lisa0825]

57. I had a friend from back in high school (initials BT)....

we'd lost touch for about 10 years, and got back in touch again. I suspected that she was a conservative Republican, from her line of work and the extravagant way she lived. I managed not to discuss politics with her for two years after reuniting, and we had a lot of good times. Then, one night, a mutual friend insisted on talking politics. I have never felt the same about BT since. I didn't want to know how freeper-like she was, and now I know, and now I just can't see her the same way. years ago, it didn't matter, but now, because of how I feel this fight is *part of me*, it does matter. Now I keep in touch, shallowly, just to say hi, and that I care. But I don't feel that same closeness I used to.

P.S. your post inspired me to post a similar one. the mutual friend mentioned here is the one I had the argument with.

[Carson]

60. What you did...

...goes against my Southern upbringing. Apparently, this person sent you a congratulatory and condolence note and you responded by flaming him.

I see your point about not being able to stomach his RW stance but, IMHO, to respond to a polite, thoughtful gesture the way you did was uncalled for.

By all means, go to his blog (most have comment sections, right?) and tell him exactly what you think and feel about his posts. Or next time you have a discussion, tell him how politically wrong he is. Keep it to the proper forum and circumstance, in other words.

Just because we're right doesn't mean we have to be asses. I can only imagine if I sent a RW friend of mine a congratulatory note on the birth of her baby and she fired back with, "How two-faced of you! You, who support murdering innocent babies by abortion congratulating me on the birth of my baby."



(My sincerest condolences on the loss of your father, and congratulations on the new baby.)

[sfwriter]

68. I'm glad I didn't do what you've said then...

Your hypothetical post resembles mine in no way.

I pointed out how the beliefs he has espoused impacted DIRECTLY the people he cared for, namely me and my family.

I could have posted to his public blog, but what is the point? He and I have been arguing about the Iraq war ever sine we were going there to save America from immediate threat of WMDs. That could go in circles forever. It has.

I wanted to reach him emotionally.

The point is, he has never connected what he says to those around him in an emotional way. Now, maybe he will.

[MUSTANG_2004]

73. Reach him emotionally?

I don't think you wanted to reach him emotionally. I think you wanted to strike out at him and feel good about yourself for doing so.

Why else would you publicly post your response and include his name? Do you think friends usually publicly publish their admonishments to each other?

[Carson]

76. Well said, Mustang

My point was, and is, that your timing was off.

If you really want to reach him "emotionally" why don't you wait until one of his parents passes away and then flame him?

Hey, common courtesy isn't the point here, it's about being right.

(sarcasm activated)

[Bettie]

64. Good letter...

Says what you want to say and doesn't say he's a bad person, simply that you disagree with him. I hope that he takes your words seriously and looks carefully at what he has been saying.

Congratulation son your beautiful baby girl! It is so sad that your father didn't live to see her, and my sincere sympathy on his death.

[MissAnnThrope]

74. I Share Your Pain

I have a friend who, about a month ago, when I accused him of being a closet conservative said to me, "If I had any conservative leanings, Bush cured me. He's a disaster."

Well, then Reagan died. He started freeping like no tomorrow, to the point of cutting me and probably other people out of his life. This is someone who claims to care for me and had been dropping hints at a future together. But to see him coming out suddenly for Bush, is getting to me. Especially based on what he said to me at the beginning of the month.

I tried to ask him about it and was told that Reagan's death made him all nostalgic. OK, I can understand that, but to start posting views so far away from what you've been telling me? I can't tell you all how much this is hurting me. I mean, he was telling me how he was hoping Kerry would win at one point: "If Kerry wins, the anti-outsourcing backlash will start. Viva la revolution!" Now, he sits over there, freeping, morning, noon and night making nasty comments about Kerry.

I could go on with things he's said to me, but I think you get the point. I really don't know what to do. I expect him to come out for God in a Southern Baptist Convention kind of way any day now and brand me as a heretic for being a Pagan, in spite of the fact a few weeks ago he had no room in his life for organized religion and was doing some research on Aten, who might be the model for the Judeo/Christian god.

What causes a person to change like that so quickly? I really don't get it. Any suggestions on how I can talk to him sanely and rationally? This is someone I've always discussed politics with. I'm actually feeling extremely hurt by all of this and I can't figure out why.

Perhaps it's from reading all those posts on Free Republic. Those people consider anyone who doesn't think the way they do, "brown shirts" and "commie liberals." Since when is being liberal the equivalent of being a communist? Or a fascist? They can't even see they're doing what they're accusing liberals of doing.

I've always been very middle of the road. I don't believe in partisan politics. I believe "We The People" all deserve representation. Not one party over the other. But I swear, reading over there, I'm starting to lean way toward liberal.

OK, I think I'm done ranting. If anyone has any suggestions on how to handle this situation before it turns into a melt down, I'd love to hear them.

[amazona]

80. any chance your friend is bipolar ?

Anyone with Alzheimer's in the family will tell you that Reagan has been "gone" an awfully long time, they just finally got around to putting his body to rest.

Some reasons men have suddenly changed on me without warning --

1) they didn't change, the original stories were lies to get in my pants or my good graces
2) they are sociopaths for whom lies are second nature. Hold your hat, next week, you'll hear another story about what he believes
3) bipolar disease, they need medical help -- watch for other symptoms such as a change in how they handle money (wild spending or gambling)

There is no use feeling hurt. It isn't about you. People do change and not always for the better. Also, if they have been in an accident and had a head injury, all bets are off on how their behavior can change. Don't blame yourself for how your friend has changed. You're feeling hurt because you are feeling deceived. Your friend posed as one thing and now is presenting himself as another thing. But it isn't your fault. It's sad but it isn't something you did or something you caused or something you can cure.

[obietiger]

78. A very touching letter

I'm so sorry about your father's death and I think your letter shows your pain - not only of his death (and you never really get over that pain) but your pain at the people like your "friend" that are not the least bit compassionate to the people/events around them.

[sfwriter]

84. His Reply....

This is much what Kaitykaity and others have predicted. But I ask you. What kind of a friend is he?

Get the reply in this thread here.