Evils of Wal-Mart: Based on Reality?

[Rick in Maryland]

While reading my local newspaper's letters to the editor section yesterday, I read one letter where the citizen writer warned about the evil Wal-Mart will unleash on our city if they are allowed to open a second store in the area. We already have one Wal-Mart, a supercenter no less. In fact, it was the Wal-Mart's number one supercenter last year. I know this because of the "#1 Supercenter" t-shirts the associates wear. That, and the actual trophy on display for all to see.

The writer seemed to think that by opening up a second supercenter in the area, Wal-Mart would put "Mom and Pop" stores out of business. This is what I really have to question. What is a mom and pop store?

I can think of no such stores that have gone out of business since the existing supercenter opened. Personally, the only effect that I can see since the supercenter opened is that less people shop at corporate grocery stores such as Food Lion and instead shop at the Wal-Mart supercenter. I know we do. In fact, the biggest loser since the supercenter went in seems to be Sam's Club, Wal-Mart's membership warehouse store. We used to shop there for groceries. Not anymore. The Wal-Mart supercenter seems to have food items at the same price. We even let our membership lapse since we had no need to shop there.

I cannot help but think that by opening a second Wal-Mart supercenter, it will only take business from the existing supercenter. Remember, it was the number one supercenter last year. It is very crowded and very busy. How a second supercenter will effect the proverbial "mom and pop" store (whatever that is) escapes me. I think it might effect corporate owned grocery stores.

I have a hard time believing that Wal-Mart puts any store out of business. Other cooperate chains seem to effect small local businesses more then Wal-Mart does. For instance, the one locally owned arts and crafts store went out of business shortly after A.C. Moore and Michaels both opened for business. Lowes and Home Depot seem to effect locally owned hardware stores more then Wal-Mart does.

Is Wal-Mart really evil? If you fight against Wal-Mart, aren't you really only protecting smaller corporately owned chains?

[Baltimoreboy]

1. Wal-Mart

It's a deep discount chain that is enormous. It uses its purchasing power to undersell every existing business. So if you run smaller stores (often not corporately owned), you can't compete on price. In many cases, you can't come even close.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. Also they use underhanded tactics

They ran a fabric store out of business by using deep discounts on cloth. Once the store was closed, Wal-Mart prices shot through the roof.

I usually get prescription medicines at a mom and pop pharmacy, but once they were out of the drugs that I had to have that day. I was forced to go to Wal-Mart, where the clerks were unfriendly, service was extremely slow, and the prices were much higher. When I commented on this (I had a ticket from my local pharmacy to show them), they said, "So what? You're here, you got your pills, go home."

Hope I'm never in the situation where I'm forced to go to Wal-Mart again.

[lanparty]

106. Predatory pricing ...

They subsidize newer stores with their others. They keep prices "extra low" after they've opened a new outlet until their competition goes under. Then they raise their prices and the cycle begins again.

[jmowreader]

132. Wal-Mart is capable of pricing below their cost for extended periods

if that's what it takes to get rid of a competitor.

Many Wal-Marts put up a city map with pushpins marking their competitors. When they can remove a pin from the map (meaning the competitor has been crushed), they celebrate.

I have told the tale of the golf-accessory maker who almost got put out of business by Wal-Mart, but I'll tell it again because it shows another side of the rat bastards. This golf accessory maker got a contract from Wal-Mart (back in the "Bringing It Home To The USA" campaign they did several years ago--the one where they made huge signs bragging about how many jobs they brought home to the USA. One I remember was for some really shitty plastic measuring cups, the kind you get when you just take up housekeeping and you don't know to buy a Pyrex one. They brought home six jobs to the USA--it took more people to print the signs than to make the cups.) to make about a billion golf tees in cardboard barrels, one or two barrels for each store depending on how much golf was played in the area. Our hero employed three people and had two tee molders, and Wal-Mart's order required lots more. So he went out and bought a lot more equipment, went into hock to buy plastic pellets to make the tees from, hired a bigger crew, and rented a warehouse to stage the barrels. Two days before the order was to be shipped, Wal-Mart called up and told him his price was too high. If he didn't come down to almost cost right now, they were going to cancel the order. This guy was on the verge of bankruptcy because of the costs of producing this order, and Wal-Mart knew it. They also knew no one else could handle an order that big. They made him cut his price AFTER the contract was signed. What else could he do? The next time Wal-Mart came to offer him a contract for golf accessories...I think the Wal-Mart troll's ears are still ringing.

If it was MacGregor or Titleist as the vendor, the story would have gone differently. First, a big vendor would have immediately offshored the order; shitloads of simple products are what China is for. They're set up for it, and if I had a golf-equipment plant that could make either $200 clubs or four-cent tees, I know what I'd have it doing. And second, big vendors have lawyers who would immediately sue for specific performance. Small vendors don't have that luxury.

I once read that it's never good to have 40 percent of your business be with one customer. This illustrates why.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. What happened in small towns across America

I used to live in a small town (pop. around 10,000) that had a thriving business district around the courthouse square. There was a local department store, several drug stores, a couple dime stores, and independent grocery stores, as well as dress shops, flower shops, etc. Then Wal-Mart came to town. Downtown went from thriving to empty stores. The department store I sorely missed, as it sold quality goods at reasonable prices, and was within walking distance of my home. When I moved from the town, whole sections of the square were merely empty buildings. I've heard that since then, they've been torn down, to be replaced by a huge jail to house inmates from several counties.

This same thing has happened all over the place. It happened in the town where I now work, though recently there has been a comeback of sorts-there are a lot of used furniture and consignment stores on the square now because folks around here are paid so poorly they can't afford to buy new things.

The county where I live (not the same one where I work) foiled a petition to get a Wal-Mart in the area. We don't want it. And this, btw, is northwest Arkansas, where Wal-Mart started.

[SmileyBoy]

5. A downtown department store in a town of 10,000?

OMG, now that's REALLY sad that it had to shut down because of Wal-Mart. They suck the life out of independent business in this country. There's basically no town of 10,000 people in the US that can claim they have a downtown department store anymore.:(

[Rick in Maryland]

7. Aren't downtown departments stores simply outdated businesses?

I remember them as a kid. They were a pain to get to. Limited parking. Limited hours of operation. Low product selection. Higher prices. Did Wal-Mart put them out of business or did their own business plan do it to themselves?

[Baltimoreboy]

10. Where in MD?

I'm near Rockville.

Downtown department stores were victims of white flight of the '60s in big urban areas, not small towns.

[Rick in Maryland]

20. Hagerstown <nt>

[IronLionZion]

79. dude you guys have that huge outlet mall

but for many of us, we don't have that and the local stores were good because we could usually walk to them. Now our only store is this big ass Wal-mart supercenter outside of town. Nobody can walk there and they charge monopoly prices.

[AP]

37. Are they outdated because they can't compete with the political power

and the economic power WalMart wields?

[Delano]

96. Only if you consider having a thriving commercial district "outdated".

I never had a problem with parking, and the hours weren't so different. Wal-mart's prices are not all that low, either.

Walmart has FORCED it's suppliers to move their production facilities overseas, even when they didn't want to. How is it that destroying those jobs is good for America?

Walmart is a filth company run by filth people with no civic conscience whatsoever.

Old Sam Walton was a bit better - his kids are SCUM.

[madrchsod]

13. i found one!!!

mendota il, where i work. there`s a stores that sell quality clothes at the same prices as any store in any major shopping center. it was like walking back in time. levis,carhart,dickies all priced the same as the big stores. quality dress shirts and causals at very good pricing. the guy owns three stores and does all his own buying. there is also a womens store that has the same quality and price . remember- he sells clothes to people who are willing to pay an extra couple of dollars for clothes that last twice as long...

[Sirveri]

17. Good for you.

Now try to find clothing that is actually still made in America...

Good luck. I managed to find ONE pair of jeans in my size, black, that were made in America. It took me a half hour of looking at labels.

As for underwear, forget it, they're almost all made in Central America now. And of course BushCo is pushing CAFTA. Because we need to lose yet more business and give these people bigger corporate breaks and profit margins!

[madrchsod]

38. ya i know..

every once in awhile i do find something made in the usa...i did find underwear from canada-and they fit better than the central american made-hey every 1/4 inch of fabric counts!

[Philostopher]

69. Eddie Bauer, well, sort of ...

I found jeans at an Eddie Bauer outlet that are at least still assembled in 'the Americas' -- sewn in Mexico, admittedly, but at least from U.S. made fabric. I quit buying the ones L L Bean sells because they're all cut and assembled elsewhere. It's gotten to the point if you can find stuff that's still made in what I call 'NAFTALand' you're lucky. They were at an outlet, of course, and Eddie Bauer's catalogs have about as many imports as domestic/NAFTALand products.

These companies used to be the one place you could find stuff still made in the U.S., though often it was a little more expensive. Because I can, I was willing to pay more -- I don't think anybody who can't afford it should feel bad about it, the way wages have been depressed in this country for the past twenty years (see WalMart and others) -- but it's pretty sad when I can't even find the stuff, anymore.

Levi Strauss used to do the same thing -- cut U.S. made fabric and assemble it in Mexico -- but now the Mexican labor isn't even cheap enough to maintain the level of corporate profit for Levi's, so they do it all in Malaysia or somewhere.

[ulysses]

26. sounds like my old hometown

in Ok. The town itself is doing ok, mainly because it's sort of the hub for the rural areas surrounding it, but all the downtown hardware, clothing and 5-&-10 shops have become "antique" stores of dubious viability since the Wal-Mart supersized. Or they've just closed.

[Don_G]

45. The Same Thing Happened In Kentucky

Wal-Mart came into town, drove the smaller businesses out and relocated 30 miles away after 10 years.

The town still hasn't recovered and probably never will.

[5X]

4. I didn't know any Waltons lived in Maryland. n/t

[RoyGBiv]

6. Yes, Wal Mart is really evil...

Nothing you say here expresses any understanding of the actual effects of the opening of a Wal-Mart Supercenter on a community.

What's a "mom and pop" store? It's a store that's primarily controlled by people who live in the community in which the store operates. Your efforts to cloud this definition by claiming most stores are corporate owned aren't particularly impressive. Do you even understand what a "corporation" is?

You want to shop at Wal-Mart? Go ahead. Have a field day supporting a company that pays its primary employees less than it takes to rent a decent apartment and buy basic necessities. Enjoy supporting a company that believes firing half its employees at Christmas is preferable to not reducing the price of its best selling toy by 1%.

Walt-Mart sucks. Period.

[Rick in Maryland]

12. If that is the definition, I can think of no store that Wal-Mart has put

out of business. I am really hard pressed to think of any store Wal-Mart has put out of business.

When did Wal-Mart fire half it's employees? I find that hard to believe, especially at Christmas time. After all, that is their busy time. How could they fire half their associates at their busy time and even function? Have a link to this story?

I realize that since I am a democrat, I am supposed to automatically despise Wal-Mart and fight against any and all expansion they propose. I simply must question that line of thought. I tend to question any thought or idea put in front of me. This is no different.

[Baltimoreboy]

15. Are you familiar with Wal-Mart's anti-union drive?

The unions have fought for years to get a foothold. Every time they get close, Wal-Mart intimidates or fires employees. Finally, the meat cutters in one location unionized. Wal-Mart outsourced that work in about a week.

They aren't nice people.

[Sirveri]

18. Wow, we're on the same side on this thread, AWESOME!

[Baltimoreboy]

30. Pretty often I'd guess

And Wal-Mart is awful.

[Lefty48197]

22. Walmart fired all of their meat cutters nationwide

after the meatcutters in one branch voted to unionize. Walmart would rather fire all their employees, than have them join unions.

[Rick in Maryland]

23. Do "mom and pop" stores allow their employees to unionize? <nt>

[Baltimoreboy]

32. Most have too few to do so

And many are family owned and operated, so that limits the chance.

[Rick in Maryland]

42. So if they are only operated by families, the chance of them creating jobs

in the community are next to none, right?

[BeachBuckeye]

48. Ya know Rick...

After reading several of your posts I'm having a difficult time accepting that you are really a Democrat. I could be wrong but your posts sound a lot like the Party line from the other side.

[Rick in Maryland]

50. I question things. I don't accept any idea or notion without thinking

it out. That is true with the Iraq war, the Bush tax cut, or even anti-Wal-Mart rhetoric.

[AP]

53. If you ask me, there isn't enough anti-Wal Mart "rhetoric"

I don't think people really understand the full dimensions of the economic damage they're doing to the US.

[BeachBuckeye]

66. If you can study Wal-Mart and learn what they are really about

you cannot possibly support their methods of doing business. They are a savage, nasty bunch determined to monopolize ALL business.

[sangh0]

130. Do you really?

You say you question things, but when spouting the party line (and uguess which party) about how those mom-and-pop stores had no parking, high prices and limited selections, you didn't give any indication that you ever questioned WHY Wal-Mart has such cheap prices, wide selection, and so much parking.

[AP]

39. Do they pay unfair, low wages for dead end jobs?

[Rick in Maryland]

46. Dead end? Don't they promote from within? <nt>

[AP]

51. Wal Mart is NOT about delivering its wealth to its workers.

Local stores, however, need to reproduce themselves, and need to have wealth in a community. They deliver their wealth to their workers and to their communities.

Agains, 500,000K taxpayer subsidy to each store.

WalMart is a sponge. Their business plan is to soak up all the wealth in a community and ship it off to Arkansas.

[Rick in Maryland]

54. Isn't the profit returned to the shareholders thru dividends? <nt>

[AP]

57. 90% of stocks are owned by less than 1% of Americans. So, all that profit

is shooting up to the top ... the wealthiest people in America (taxed at 15%). Meanwhile, Wal Mart is driving wages and local wealth lower and lower.

[AP]

59. For emphasis: exactly. They shift wealth to the wealthiest Americans.

And that wealth comes from reducing the value of labor in the US and abroad and through taxpayer subsidies (of their low wages) and by predatory pricing which drives out competition, increases market share, and which will eventually result in monopoly pricing when they become the only retalier in a community.

That wealth is given to a very small group of Americans who already have a great deal of wealth. They'll use a tiny percentage of that to buy politicians who will protect them even more from having to compete with both other retailers and with labor.

Point made.

[Rick in Maryland]

62. How many mom and pop stores sell stock and pay dividends? <nt>

[AP]

65. We're going in circles. "Mom&Pop" stores need to reproduce themselves...

...which they do building up wealth in both their employees and their communities.

Wal-Mart tries to drive down wages and they try to sponge up as much wealth as possible which they pass UP the ladder to a handfull of extremely wealthy shareholders who receive dividends on immense stock holdings which are taxed at 15%.

Wal Mart is a wealth transfer scheme. They sponge up wealth all over the world and give it to a very few people.

This is basically what caused the fall of every mighty society in the history of the world: transferring more and more wealth to fewer and fewer people until the whole thing comes crashing down on the people on the bottom.

[sangh0]

137. "Going in circles" with a "no text" poster

Someone is having their chain yanked

[madrchsod]

8. google for anti-walmart sites

you`ll find alot of sites that point out what is wrong with walmart.

[neebob]

9. Wal-mart operates on people's selfishness

knowing that if they save a few bucks, they will be able to rationalize supporting a company that treats its workers like shit. That's evil.

And maybe they don't always force their competitors out of business, but they do force them to compete. How do you think they manage to do it? Try visiting some other stores in the area and asking some long-time employees how things have changed for them.

[Sirveri]

11. Why I hate Wal*Mart. A primer.

I hate Wal*Mart for a lot of reasons. Here are a few that I can think of.

1. They do not use Union labor. They are virulently anti-union.
In the area I live, people working at Wal*Mart make minimum wage. I live in the San Francisco bay Area. You can not support yourself on minimum wage in the Bay Area.

2. The principal reason, their business practices. Every year like clockwork they do one thing. They go to the distributor and tell them to cut prices by 5%, either that or come up with a differant style of product. Inflation necessitates that prices increase over time. So the alternative is to produce a differant product, which is why cheeze-it's have so very many differant flavours. However for a industry like the pickle manufacturer, that is a substantially more difficult task to do. See the 1 Gallon Jar of Pickles for a dollar essay.

3. They account for roughly 1/3 of our imports from China.

4. Their record on the hiring of illegal immigrants.

5. How they treat their employees by locking them in the store and making them work after they have clocked out.

6. Outsourcing. If they started a trend, this was it. Levi's, no longer made in America. Hell pretty much everything is no longer made in America anymore thanks to them. Their continual tightening of the belt forces companies to close up shop here in the states and flee to foreign labor markets lest they lose a client which often times accounts for 33-50% of their business.

7. Principal. Just because you can buy something absurdly cheap at Wal*Mart does NOT mean you should do it. Think of it this way, if you frequent the local corporate grocery store which likely has union members, you will be benefiting people who have decent wages and can contribute to society. If you buy American products then you are generally getting something that is helping to allow another person to drive the economy forward. For every dollar spend at Wal*Mart, you ship 1/5 of it out of the country.

Why do I hate Wal*Mart, because I detest their exploitive and detrimental business practices. If Wal*Mart would pay it's employees a decent livable wage, and allow them to unionise, and stop pushing for the outright destruction of American jobs and capitalism itself. I 'MIGHT' think about shopping there again. The people who are un educated on the subject of Wal*Mart however, will make it so that my boycott is not felt. I wish I could look up more anti-Wal*Mart info for you at the moment, but it's 6AM here and I have yet to go to bed.

[Sirveri]

14. Now let's talk about the GOOD things they've done.

They do however I must admit do some good things.

In certain areas of abject poverty, they MAY be a help to the community. This is primarily in inner city ghetto's with little employment possibilities and where the people need access to cheap goods.

Also, they force many companies to actually operate a tighter ship that is to the companies benefit. When Levi-Strauss began to sell to Wal*Mart their distribution system was laughable. Generally delivery times were once a week and the shipments would be late or early or pretty much any time other than what they said.

Wal*Mart does not operate like that, they give you a five minute window, if you're not there, you hear about it, and you lose a lot of business. They also demand a every other day delivery schedule. These have helped to improve and retro fit Levi's slagging distribution arm to the benefit of ALL their customers.

But, even so, that does not outweigh the many negative problems that I find with the company.

[madrchsod]

31. they do force a tighter ship but that comes

at the expense of the worker also. i`ll never work for a compaany that does business with walmart. it`s the worker that gets the shit not the mangement if the stuff doesn`t get out the door..levi thought walmart was going to save levi from disaster but it hasn`t. levis can sell alot of jeans but they make no profit. the profit comes from the high end market which has been damaged by the walmart levi goods..not enough people want an expensive levi patch on their ass when some walmartian has one too....

[gmoney]

They also forced Levis to close all their US plants

Levis used to make a lot of their clothing in the US before they signed on with Wal-Mart. The Wal-Mart greed machine that tells its suppliers how to run their business drove margins down and down and demand up until Levis had to outsource to the far east (I don't have the article here handy but I think China) costing lots of long-time US workers their jobs.

The irony of it is, I bet Levis isn't making that much more profit through all this, but they've done a hell of a lot of damage.

I believe this is outlined in the Fast Company article:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

The litany of bad aspects of WalMart is just staggering...

[treepig]

21. the romans had their slaves, we have ours . . . thanks to walmart!

http://www.homestead.com/perc/files/companies/walmart.html#Bangladesh

When you purchase a shirt in Wal-Mart, do you ever imagine young women in Bangladesh forced to work from 7:30 a.m. to 8:00 p.m., seven days a week, paid just 9 cents to 20 cents an hour, who are denied health care and maternity leave; screamed at to work faster; with monitored bathroom visits; and who will be fired for daring to complain or ask for their rights?

At the Beximco factory in the Dhaka Export Processing Zone in Bangladesh, there are 1,000 workers, at least 80 percent of them young women, sewing shirts and pants for Wal-Mart and other retailers. Beximco is a sweatshop, where human rights are systematically violated.

Sweatshop Conditions Beximco/Wal-Mart Beximco Factory Dhaka Export Processing Zone (EPZ) Savar, Dhaka Bangladesh:

Forced Overtime: 12 1/2 hours × Seven Days a Week × 80-hour Work Week

Daily workshift: 7:30 a.m. to 8:00 p.m.
Seven days a week: Monday through Sunday
At the factory 87 hours a week -- paid for 80 hours (the hour lunch break is unpaid)
Paid less than 1/3 of the legal overtime rate
Not uncommon to be forced to remain in the factory beyond 8:00 p.m., working a 24-hour shift right through the night
Days off are very rare
In December 1998, twenty workers were illegally fired at Beximco and denied their legal severance pay for refusing to work an all-night shift on top of their daily 12 1/2 hours of work. Among those illegally fired were: Md. Shahjahan, Emdadul Hague, Khalilur Raham, and Samima Akter.

Under Bangladesh's labor law the regular work week is set at 48 hours, with overtime limited to 12 hours a week, making 60 hours the maximum allowable work week. The Bangladesh labor code requires one full day off a week and overtime to be paid at double the standard hourly rate. Wal-Mart and its contractor, Beximco, are systematically violating these laws.

Starvation Wages:

9 to 20 cents an hour
40% to 70% below the legal wage
$4.28 to $9.52 a week
Under EPZ regulations in Bangladesh, sewing operators are to be paid 3360 taka a month for a 48-hour work week. In U.S. dollars, this amounts to $69.28 a month, $15.99 a week, and 33 cents an hour. However, at the Beximco factory the women sewing Wal-Mart garments are illegally paid just 2,000 TK per month, which means they are earning just $41.24 each month, $9.52 per week, and 20 cents an hour. These women are being cheated of over 40 percent of their legal wage.

Helpers, who assist the sewers by supplying the production line among other tasks, are paid just 9 cents an hour, less than 75 percent of the legal norm. Overtime work, according to Bangladeshi law, must be paid at double the standard hourly wage of 33 cents an hour. The legal overtime rate, therefore, should be 66 cents an hour, but the Beximco workers earn just 20 cents.

[madrchsod]

27. you forgot something very important

next time this company comes up for a new contract with walmart ,walmart will want 5% less per unit

[Rick in Maryland]

28. Is Wal-Mart the only company to sell good made overseas? <nt>

[AP]

40. They have the political power to buy US & frgn governments which prevent

workers overseas from building up economic and political power so that they can receive a fair percentage of the wealth they're creating for wal mart.

The local mom and pop can't leverage that kind of political power.

[NMDemDist2]

24. i read that crime increases in the neighborhood whenever a

WalMart is built. Don't know why but google it

[Sirveri]

25. It's likely because the community has more money.

There are more goods floating around, and those few minimum wage jobs actually bring in some income to the extreemly lower class areas in this country.

This income may later be turned around and dumped back into the streets and used to purchase drugs (which is considered to increase crime), or because a person dares to buy a TV or video game for their child with their meager salary it encourages the ne-er do wells to steal more.

Those are my thoughts, but it makes sense in hind sight.

That and I'm really tired.

[LincolnMcGrath]

64. THERE ARE WALLYWORLDSS IN THE GHETTO?

News to me!

[BiggJawn]

68. You MUST be "really tired"

Because the way I read your statement is that if you give the "extremly lower classes" a paycheck, they will just go out and blow it on drugs.

Sounds like Reagan-esque RW bullshit to me. In fact, I'm SURE I heard the same line of shit being fed to me back in the day when I was poor and struggling. "Why give you a decent wage? You'll just go out and blow it on stuff like beer and TV's and toys for your kid? Now, if I could be sure you'd INVEST it in the Market and BETTER yourself...."

[Sirveri]

104. Yeah I was pretty tired, now I've got about five hours of sleep.

Anyways, you're right, that does sound like right wing BS. But lets be honest here, there are a LOT of people who live in the Ghetto who buy drugs. If wally world opens up in a ghetto and happens to employ some of those people who happen to use drugs, then yes, some of those people will spend their money on drugs.

They won't ALL spend it on drugs. They won't all do the right thing either though. I'm unemployed and am technically part of that income bracket. I don't buy drugs because I can't afford it. Some people are addicts, so they when they get a job, buy drugs with the money. Some people with drug habits happen to be coke snorting yuppies too. The reality of the ghetto is that commonly the drug of choice is crack cocaine and those users are more likely to resort to prostitution and petty theft to get their fix than work at Wally World.

Now if we fought the war on drugs correctly, by ending it and simply legalising everything and opening rehab centers, that would probably be better. But I don't really see America doing that any time soon. Oh well. I was mainly trying to find justification for why crime would increase in areas where Wal*Mart operates.

[yankeedem]

108. except.......

Walmart has drug testing, and random checks.

[Sirveri]

114. probably shouldn't talk so much out of my ass then I guess.

[AP]

41. Wal-Mart also is very agressive about not settling civil suits

They also do what Disney does in FL. They hire every good lawyer in town to handle some random matter so that they're all conflicted out of suing them.

Wal-Mart try to pass on as much of the costs of its existence on to the governments and the residents of the places they locate.

[alarimer]

77. Also

They force their suppliers into lowering wages for their own workers simply because Walmart buys in such volumes that they can dictate the terms at which they buy those porducts.

[BeachBuckeye]

16. Eyewitness account

A few years back I held elected office in a Midwestern state. Wal-Mart wanted to come to our town. I objected because I knew of the terrible consequences of their presence in a small community. I and several other elected officials began to take a tour of many similar communities that had invited Wal-Mart in with open arms. They gave tax breaks to lure them in over the objections of the citizens of those small towns. I photographed the business communities of those small cities who now had their new Wal-Mart and the loss of local owned businesses was quite large. The small town drug store, shoe stores, clothing stores, grocery stores, hardware stores and even the local sporting good store all had to try and compete with the cheesy giant. Local businesses had to lay off employees and, eventually, close their doors thus giving Wal-Mart total control of the business environment in the community. The people then had to go to work for Wal-Mart for lower wages and fewer benefits. The profits all went back to Bentonville Ark. and Wal-Mart paid no taxes because of the abatement they were granted. So the citizens had to decide if the slightly lower prices on the goods from Wally World were worth the price of having their communities invaded by this giant retailer with no conscience and no regard whatsoever for the local area. They learned the hard way that Wal-Mart is very good at taking but gives back absolutely nothing.

[Lefty48197]

19. For every Walmart employee, 1.5 mom & pop employees have lost their jobs

Plus, there are all the manufacturing employees who have lost their jobs, because everything Walmart sells was made in China by 10 year old girls working to earn a dowry.

[JNelson6563]

29. I spent a few years in the belly of the beast

Take my word for it, they are evil.

I was in the marketing division. I was there, I saw, I know.

Julie

[MUSTANG_2004]

80. Tell more! (nt)

[wellstone_democrat]

84. I worked in their accounting branch in the late 80s

every single thing that you hear is true and then some. Lock in employees for "zoning" off the clock? You bet they do
Fire anyone who complains about illegal work conditions? absolutely
PLAN to run out any competition in any area within 50 miles? YOU BET YOUR ASS
figure out to the last dime how to keep employees desperate for work in an area even while "urging" them to "give back to their communities through volunteer work" that is then credited to Walmart? Oh, and the laughs some had over the need for charities by those same employees? Regular and vicious.
Oh, and look at how many "consolidate" locations when tax abatements run out. Its educational to say the least (we called it: hit and run or "cashing out"

In a "former life" I helped implement and calculate the cost benefits of these policies--- and so much more. A big reason why I am now here.
I've yet to see (in my rare trips to such sites) an anti-Walmart site that is wrong.

[jilln]

33. How many of the posters on this thread still shop there?

Gotta put your money where your mouth is. I quit, also won't go to Costco (eminent domain) or Neiman Marcus (fur).

[madrchsod]

47. i don`t unless i need fabric

there isn`t a fabric store or sewing stuff within 45 miles of where i live..in the middle of northern il.! costco isn`t to bad-they contribute to the democrats and they pay their employees a decent wage. neiman marcus? i don`t make that much money to even walk in the store-i know i went into nm-

[MUSTANG_2004]

81. Target

Far superior to Wal-mart.

[hippywife]

82. We don't shop there. n/t

[Sirveri]

105. Costco is FAR superior to Wal*Mart.

CostCo actually pays its employees a decent wage and generally supports Democrats.

[jilln]

111. I'm willing to believe they're BETTER...

but not necessarily good still! They try to take other people's land through eminent domain to build more stores. Bad.

[cosmicdot]

34. "Is Wal-Mart really evil?" you're kidding, right?

Limited parking. Limited hours of operation. Low product selection.

I don't think it's a "downtown" vs. Wal-Mart superstore issue ...

I think it's more of what kind of people and society do we strive to be; and, what kind of standard of living do we desire for our people - total quality of life ...


I know it must be difficult to resist a return to pre-1940ish working conditions ... but, I'm totally against it.


References (hopefully, all the links still work ... if not, a simple google of the article title often works):

May 31, 2004

Working...And Poor

In today's cutthroat job market, the bottom rung is as high as most
workers will ever get.

http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_22/b3885001_mz001.htm

The Wal-Mart You Don't Know

The giant retailer's low prices often come with a high cost. Wal-
Mart's relentless pressure can crush the companies it does business
with and force them to send jobs overseas. Are we shopping our way
straight to the unemployment line?

From: Issue 77 December 2003, Page 68
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

The Death of Horatio Alger - Goodbye American Dream
by Paul Krugman

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20040105&s=krugman


When Wal-Mart comes to town

What happens when the world's biggest corporation opens a hangar-
sized outlet in Smallsville USA?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1020912,00.html


Wal-Mart wars
Ruth Rosen
Thursday, June 26, 2003


WOULD YOU LIKE a Wal-Mart "supercenter" store to move into your
community? Think of the low prices and the convenience of one-stop
shopping! You just park once and get whatever you need -- groceries,
drugs, plants, toys, dog food, even eyeglasses.

Sounds great, doesn't it? So why have nearly 200 communities refused
to allow such big-box stores to enter their lives? Do they know
something we don't?

To find out, I embedded myself in the Wal-Mart wars that have
recently broken out in Contra Costa County. What I learned, in a
nutshell, is that Wal- Mart's nonunion, big-box stores drag down
other workers' salaries, destroy downtown businesses, prevent smart-
growth development and increase traffic congestion. What really
surprised me though is that we, the taxpayers, end up subsidizing Wal-
Mart stores by paying for the health and retirement needs of its
workers.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0626-06.htm


Wal-Mart: an empire built on bargains remakes the working world - Part 1 of 3

Wal-Mart is so powerful that it moves the economies of entire countries, bringing profit and pain.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-walmart23nov23a,1,7637894.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Second of Three Parts

Scouring the Globe to Give Shoppers an $8.63 Polo Shirt

Wal-Mart, once a believer in buying American, extracts ever lower prices from 10,000 suppliers worldwide. Workers struggle to keep pace.

http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-fi-walmart24nov24.story



Wal-Mart Audit Finds Labor Violations

January 13, 2004 05:31 PM EST


NEW YORK - An audit by Wal-Mart Stores Inc. of about 25,000 employees
uncovered thousands of labor violations, including minors working
during school hours and workers not taking breaks or lunches.

http://news.bostonherald.com/national/view.bg?articleid=5780&format=


COSTCO
The Only Company Wal-Mart Fears
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/investing/articles/0,15114,538834,00.html

[AP]

35. Even if they haven't driven smaller, locally owned businesses OOB yet,

they're definitely cutting into profit margins.

And competitors, regardless of whether they're locally or nationally owned also provide valuable compettion to Wal Mart that keeps prices in a reasonable range. Wal Mart forces price competition in the short term, which would be good, except that they are predatorily low, and whent he competiton is gone, Wal Mart will be able to monopoly price.

So consumers should want a balance -- low prices AND competition. Wal Marts business strategy is low prices now, no competition later.

Another thing consumers should worry about with WalMart is that their labor rates have a very dangerous impact on the labor marke in an area. I understand that they pass out welfare benefits forms with their employee manuals. I've also read that each WalMart is subsidized to the tune of 500,000 dollars by taxpayers, because of the welfare benefits their employers receive. So, if you take out the short term price competition from teh equation, WalMarts suck resources out of a town. They have a government subsidized profit. That is not good for competion in the labor market.


Another thing to worry about, on a larger scale is what they do to the value of American labor by outsourcing manufacture of their goods. They're exploiting cheap labor abroad, and supporting Republicans at home at RW'ers abroad who prevent those foreign countries from allowing those workers to grow a middle class and demand a fair value of the wealth they create. (And then WalMart pockets most of the money they save from cheap labor, rather than pass it on to consumers -- with that profit they build even more political power.)

It's just bad all the way around.

If you like the free market, generally, you don't want any business to be that dominant.

Of course, a great way to fix this is to have real progressive taxation which has higher marginal rates at very high income levels so that shear size wouldn't be so much of a competitive advantatage.

[G_j]

36. grocery stores

they have a calculated policy of placing super-centers at strategic distances from each other. The grocery stores in-between eventually go out of business. Then of course their grocery prices creep back up.

Now remember they have beauty parlors, auto parts etc.etc.
It is part of their planning to put everyone else under. Thus two super-centers. ..no accident

[madrchsod]

43. just thought i`d add this

i just went to "carhart" clothing..from what i`ve seen carhart is made in the united states..their clothes last forever-you won`t find carhart in walmart....

[Rick in Maryland]

44. Kidding, right? Carhartt tag says "Dominican Republic". <nt>

[AP]

52. Carhart is made in USA (except for some lightweight denim products)

Say YES! to: Carhartt (carhartt.com)

Work Clothes

About 80% of clothing is USA made. (per US Stuff visitor email 5-17-02)
U. S. A. made clothes made by an old American company (per US Stuff visitor email 1-2-02)
Work Clothing and heavy material, colored jeans US Made. Bulk of Carhartt stuff US made.
Casual light-weight blue jeans imported. (per US Stuff visitor email 11-29-01)
Heavy jackets, pants, shirts, overalls, gloves, etc.

Buy from:
Cabelas (cabelas.com)
Cabelas also sells hunting, camping, and fishing gear.
Cabelas also tells you where the products are made. (per US Stuff visitor email 5-17-02)

And from:
Denim Express (www.denimexpress.com/carhartt.html)
(per US Stuff visitor email 1-19-02)

And from:
Army/Navy Surplus in Newport, RI and your local Surplus Store.
May still be available from sears.com

(Thanks to the US Stuff visitor who emailed the info 11-29-01, and the US Stuff visitors who emailed info 12-26-01, 1-2-02, 1-19-02 & 5-17-02)

Watch out for:
an imported Carhartt casual light-weight blue jean, and Liberty work clothing made in Mexico (American flag decal on tag, per US Stuff visitor email 12-26-01) and jeans made and/or assembled in another country.

http://www.usstuff.com/clothwrk.htm

Info:
Over one hundred years since its beginning, Carhart, Inc. employs over 2,500 people and manufactures a full line of rugged clothing. Headquartered in Dearborn, Michigan, Carhart, Inc. has manufacturing plants located in Illinois, Tennessee and Kentucky. Most of the Carhart clothing line is constructed of duck, a rugged, canvas-like material made from 100% cotton. Carhart clothing products include pants, shirts, jackets, overalls and vests. Carhart also offers a variety of accessories, such as caps, gloves and socks, in addition to a full line of denim clothing products.

http://hutchville.com/carhart-clothing.shtml

[Rick in Maryland]

55. The only Carhart shirt I own was made in the Dominican

The tag says so.

[AP]

56. See above. You probably have one of the sissy lightweight shirts. All ...

...their REAL work clothes are made in the US.

[Rick in Maryland]

61. Picture says it all

[AP]

67. I think my post says it all too -- 80% of their clothes are made in US

except for lightweight denim stuff and their "Liberty" label stuff made in Mexico.

Read labels when you buy.

[Rick in Maryland]

71. I don't only wear clothing made in the United States. I never said that

I do. I was simply responding to your earlier statement that Carhardtt clothing was made in the United States. From reading the tag I provided, you can see that it is not. At least not all of it.

[AP]

73. Reread my post. It doesn't say all carhartt clothing made in US.

[sangh0]

139. And he has a digital pic of the label

all ready to go

[jmowreader]

133. Carhartt is too expensive for Wal-Mart

The reason you never saw Levis jeans in Wal-Mart was that before the Signature line appeared on Wal-Mart's shelves, the cheapest jean Levi Strauss made was over the upper limit for jeans prices at WM.

And Carhartt prices make Levis' old prices look real cheap.

You also don't see Key workwear in Wal-Mart. Same reason.

[amazona]

49. hmm interesting question

My experience with "mom and pop" grocery stores has been very negative. Small grocery stores I've had the misfortune to visit victimize the poorest customers (those who can't even afford one car) with obscene prices. I'm no fan of "mom and pop" grocery stores, to put it mildly.

I do get grocery from a Wal-Mart's supercenter, and for the reason that with my huge four figure income the price savings make a huge difference in my ability to put food on the table.

There are lots of problems of Wal-Mart, too many to list here, but to claim that "mom and pop" stores are not predatory is quite untrue so your point is taken. They can be extremely predatory.

[LincolnMcGrath]

63. one single small town store?

[The Night Owl]

58. Like you said...

Walmart is very crowded and very busy. That is why I never shop at Walmart. Shelves and aisles crammed with products. Parents letting their children scream and run wild as though such behavior is acceptable in a store. Aggressive consumers who think they are getting rich by saving a few dollars. In short, Walmart may not be evil, but it sure as hell is obnoxious.

[LincolnMcGrath]

60. Real simple Rick

We HAD 7-8 grocers for decades. All paid good union wages, with company paid health care, and most importantly, PENSIONS. Now ALL are gone, with two wally marts replacing them. This is only grocery stores, not including hardware, lumber, etc.


500 good jobs gone, replaced by 100 slave labor jobs.

[TO Kid]

124. Grocers nuked themselves before Wal-Mart

Back in the 1980s all of the big supermarket chains in Canada were in serious trouble and one even went under because they were pricing themselves out of the market. The union wages were only a small part of the story- the biggest cost was the rest of the union agreement that hampered their ability to respond to the market. Management were not allowed to schedule part-time employees for more than 20 hours per week, even on a temporary basis, and there were other clauses in the contract that effectively made it impossible to keep a store open later in the evening or on Sundays. They bled out market share to independents that were free to set their business hours as they saw fit.

If unions stuck to wages & benefits I bet they'd face far less resistance from employers. Mind you, I still think that if a militant union gets in then management have nobody to blame but themselves- contented employees have a tendency to not sign union cards.

[Name removed]

70. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Rick in Maryland]

72. I question things. I don't accept any idea or notion without thinking

about it. That makes me a Republican? Yeah, right.

[AP]

74. But you seem to be a little clueless of some stuff that you should arleady

have down if you're a democrat, including, but not limited to:

- the wealth concentrating effect of driving down wages and passing wealth to loaded people through dividences

- predatory pricing leading to monopoly pricing

- the negative effect on labor rates caused by outsourcing

- the nature and effects of taxpayer subsidize profits (specifically, through welfare benefits for underpaid employees)

[Rick in Maryland]

75. I am a registered Democrat. That does not mean I leave my brain at the

door. I questions things that are presented as fact. This thread was started because I **QUESTIONED** how a second supercenter in my town would put mom and pop stores out of business. Read my original message.

I understand the evils of outsourcing. I really do. With that said, not all Democrats are even against outsourcing. Some are very much for it. Who signed NAFTA into law? It wasn't Wal-Mart.

[AP]

76. Some of these are foundation issues.

And it probably wouldn't be a mischaracterization to say that Wal-Mart did sign NAFTA into law.

Economic power translates very easily into political power.

[BeachBuckeye]

78. It is just plain silliness to have to question whether or not Wal-Mart

puts smaller stores out of business. I could give you a list of at least 50 such examples. I have seen many small town business communities almost totally wiped out by Wal-Mart. Its happening all over America. How could you possibly have your head so deeply in the sand as to not realize that? Questioning is one thing. Being just plain contrary and silly is quite another.

[hiphopnation]

88. You've been given several

great posts and responses to your questions and concerns yet you continue to *QUESTION* which does give the impression that you're 1) not reading every response 2) thick-headed 3) a disruptor.

Which is it?

[hiphopnation]

91. ps

please go read the excellent and informative post #11.

I would advise a couple of things in your approach.

Don't think of this as pure evil and equate the business practices of Wal-Mart as being in league with the devil. As the poster in #s 11 and 14 pointed out to you, there are some good things about their practices and some bad things. Likely you'll find that people here will see their practices as being more detrimental in general for many of the reasons set forth in post #11. Namely, I would reiterate, Wal-Mart's continuing demand to undercut all of their suppliers and distributors has forced the outsourcing issue on companies that may have otherwise not considered it. Or at least been able to postpone it's inevitability and decided to keep jobs here a little while longer, i.e. Levis.

The outsourcing issue is more than a double-edged sword. It is a multi-faceted issue that has multiple ins and outs and positives and negatives. I think that the jury is still out on whether outsourcing is a good or bad thing. Many think what is so dangerous is how fast it's happening ergo anger and frustration with Wal-Mart for giving some companies no option. In other words, it's hard to tell if outsourcing will have long term beneficial affects (a fact that some of the proponents of the practice like to tout) by creating new job markets here at home and by benefiting other countries job-markets.

But to look at this from a purely socio-economic standpoint(your Mom & Pop analogy) it is likely that outsourcing contributes to the decimation of vibrant and active urban centers where business owners and workers are tied in to an intimate exchange of goods and services i.e. the rust-belt in the North East; places like Rochester, NY.

In short, if you think that taking someone's union job at a factory that had benefits, a pension, and long-term security and giving them a job scanning Chinese made T-shirts for minimum wage without benefits is a good thing, then you need to re-examine the issue. You need to look closer. There are a host of great books out there on the subject. Read a few.

[Delano]

97. You say you are questioning, but it sounds more like you are advocating...

Trying to find ways of being on the side of Walmart. Why would your sympathies lie with the Walmart rather than your local businesspeople?

Usually, Walmart forces communities to give them special tax breaks to open their hideous box stores, so they don't even contribute their fair share to the local tax base.

How would bringing another ugly, crowded, traffic-choked Walmart full of cheap imported junk enhance the quality of life in your community?

I live in San Francisco, and I'm happy to say we don't have a Wal-Mart here.

They have them across the bay, and parts of Oakland look like Beirut with boarded up stores and weed-choked parking lots.

Here in SF there are still plenty off locally owned shops that have been around for decades. I do my best to use them over the chains. If it means I can afford a little bit less plastic junk, it's worth it.

[MarLopez2]

98. Growl, snap, grr.

Well Rick, some of the most notorious ideological extremists you'll find on here are actually quite pragmatic when you know them in "real" life. I think DU, or the at least the part you're observing, operates as a kind of therapeutic device in some instances. A place where people are somewhat liberated to push suppositions out to their maximum terminating points. That's the case for me, although also the reason I'm more spectator than anything.

[tabasco]

113. Hahahahahahahaha!!!

You betcha! The biggest company in the world certainly has no influence in legislation! Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!!

Wake up.

[texastoast]

129. The centrist Bill Clinton signed NAFTA into law

After everything was previously put into place and ready to go by the senior shrub. Early in his administration, Bill made a big mistake by signing NAFTA and the Dems gave him hell for it. He coulda vetoed, but he was trying to get along.

And shrubito is fast-tracking CAFTA as well. NAFTA and CAFTA are pukian dreams.

So far in your post I haven't seen mentioned that due to the fact that Wally World limits the numbers of hours employees can work, most do not qualify for health care. That often sends them to public hospitals and clinics funded by taxpayers.

Pay me now or pay me later. There are no bargains at Wal-Mart.

[gpandas]

86. operative word here is "thinking", pretty much a...

no-no here at du. read the rules. these forums are for dems wanting to discuss dem things. nobody likes being challenged by common sense and reason. questioning established du principles is verboten, er... ah, i mean, frowned upon. as one post made clear-this is not a free speech zone. read the rules. conform. or leave.

[Name removed]

90. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hiphopnation]

obviously he/she doen't have too much of a problem

with the climate here hence the gold star.

Thanks for contributing to our conformist bitch-session. See you at the annual fundraister. :thumbsup:

[hiphopnation]

92. obviously he/she doen't have too much of a problem

with the climate here hence the gold star.

Thanks for contributing to our conformist bitch-session. See you at the annual fundraiser. :thumbsup:

[hiphopnation]

93. obviously he/she doesn't have too much of a problem

with the climate here hence the gold star.

Thanks for contributing to our conformist bitch-session. See you at the annual fundraiser. :thumbsup:

[gpandas]

95. where did i say that i did not like the rules?

rules are rules, if i was not ready to obey them, i could simply leave. i was explaining to the poster why he was being called a republican, which was the gist of his reply. i DID read a post here that said this is not a free speech zone. the post, made by a 1000+duer, went unchallenged. i have no problem with this. rules are rules. i do not know what you mean by "disruptive", he started the thread. btw, if you are going to curse me, try to show a little originality, "go to free republic," and "head up your a--", are so old and lame. maybe read some of falstaff's words. finally, thanks for proving my point.

[kimchi]

87. Yes, you question...

and then refuse to believe the answers.

[Rick in Maryland]

109. Only the answers that are based on bunk and silliness.

More people need to question things that are presented to them as fact. We would have a lot less sheep. A lot less ditto heads.

People automatically claim that mom and pop stores suffer because of Wal-Mart. My original message (which I am sure most of you did not read) pertained to someone in the local paper claiming that opening a second Wal-Mart Supercenter in town would hurt the local "mom and pop" stores.

That is something I had to question.

Seems to me the only business a second (2nd) Wal-Mart Supercenter would siphon off would be from the original Wal-Mart Supercenter. The place is uber busy. Any given weekend the place is packed with lots of people. It is one of the busiest Wal-Marts in North America. Really.

There are no 1960's style "mom and pop" stores in the area. Trying to stop Wal-Mart from building a new supercenter because it might hurt stores that do not even exist seems like a waste of time. It seems dumb.

I am a democrat and I don't think Wal-Mart is the boogie man. I am ready and willing to listen to reasons why they are evil, but when I am presented with reasons that at best could be described as bunk, don't expect me to change my mind.

Insinuating that democrats should not shop at Wal-Mart, or that people that shop at Wal-Mart cannot be democrats is just plain dumb. If John Kerry is going to win this November, he will need people that shop at Wal-Mart to vote for him. People like me.

[kimchi]

115. I don't see any answers based on bunk and silliness.

I believe you answered your own question, so why ask us?

If you don't see anything evil in the details of corporate malpractice elucidated here; I certainly can't convince you. WM is just the most successful of the chain stores at getting blood from a stone. As you stated yourself, most of the Mom and Pop stores left when Lowe's and Michaels, etc. came to town.

I'm not aware of how Lowe's and Michaels treat their employees. But it is common knowledge that WM pays their employees low wages, won't let them unionize, and with a "lock-in here and a timecard cheat there". Documented instances of greedy management and poor working conditions--which by no stretch of the imagination could be called "bunk".

[Rick in Maryland]

117. Clinging to cliches like the "mom & pop" excuse is embarrassing.

It is also a waste of time. That's the problem with reasons not based on logic, facts, or simple common sense. The problem is that too many people cannot stop clinging to their old worn out cliches. I guess this is true for people on the left or the right. I used to believe that it was the far right that relied far too often on cliches. After this weekend, I am not too sure.

Whether it be the old "mom & pop" cliche or something else like "Wal-Mart pays low wages". It is easy to say. It gets bantered without the slightest challenge. Low compared to what? Other retail chains? Does Wal-Mart pay less then Target? How about Kmart? Toys R Us? Most likely they all pretty much pay the same. Otherwise, folks would choose to work at the other retail chains over Wal-Mart. Oddly enough, they don't. In fact, both Target and Toys R Us are actively trying to hire in my town. Signs in front of the stores and ads in the newspaper. Target even had ads on telephone polls. Wal-Mart isn't doing any of that. If they were indeed paying less then the other guys, they would constantly be in need of employees.

People like to also bring up the union thing. Can you show me one retail chain that wants or encourages their employees to unionize? Since Wal-Mart is always singled out as being anti-union, I assume that the other retail chains are pro-union. The thing is, they aren't. I am sure that Wal-Mart is like any other company in this country. They do not want their employees to unionize. I fail to see how this makes them evil.

I could choose to simply drink from the same cup of kool aid as others and repeat the same cliches or I could put my brain in gear and think for a second or two. I choose to do the latter.

Clinging to cliches makes democrats look bad.

[PA Democrat]

118. Many people have supplied links to support those "cliches"

of low wages, tax subsidies, etc. But hey, when you want to remain blind, it is your prerogative. So don't read any of the well-documented research that people have provided to you, it is obvious that you do not have an open mind about the effects of the Wal-mart phenomenon.

One other note. Wal-mart is a top contributor to the Republican Party.

http://www.opensecrets.org/overview/topcontribs.asp

[Rick in Maryland]

119. Did someone provide a link to support the assertion that Wal-Mart pays

less then any other discount retailer? When people say that Wal-Mart pays low wages, they are comparing apples to oranges.

For instance, Wal-Mart indeed pays cashiers less then the New York Yankees pay for infielders. I expect to see that they pay less then other retailers. Do they pay less then Target? Kmart? Were is the link that shows that?

It does not surprise me in the slightest that Wal-Mart contributes to the GOP. They are after all the largest and richest corporation in the United States. Corporations give money to republicans. Unions give money to democrats. Ying-yang. How does that fact make them any different then so many other rich corporate entities in this country?

[PA Democrat]

120. Try reading links already provided to you, like this one

http://businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_22/b3885001_mz001.htm

THE WAL-MART EFFECT
Lately, there's a new name for the downward pressure on wages: the so-called Wal-Martization of the economy. Most recently, the dynamic played out starkly in the five-month Southern California supermarket strike that ended in February. The three chains involved, Safeway (SWY ), Albertson's (ABS ), and Kroger (KR ), said they had no choice but to cut pay and benefits drastically now that 40 Wal-Mart Stores (WMT ) supercenters would be opening up in the area. The reason: Wal-Mart pays its full-time hourly workers an average of $9.64, about a third of the level of the union chains. It also shoulders much less of its workers' annual health insurance costs than rivals, leaving 53% of its 1.2 million employees uncovered by the company plan.

Now, after the strike, new hires will have lower wages and bear a much higher share of health costs than current union members, making health insurance too pricey for many of them, too. Eventually, many grocery jobs could wind up paying poverty-level wages, just like Wal-Mart's. "I used to load workers into my truck to take them down to United Way," says Jon Lehman, a former manager of a Louisville Wal-Mart who now works for the United Food & Commercial Workers Union. In his 17 years with Wal-Mart, he kept a Rolodex with numbers for homeless shelters, food banks, and soup kitchens. "They couldn't make it on their paychecks."

It's a prospect that deeply worries workers like Sherry Kovas. Over 26 years, she worked her way up to $17.90 an hour as a cashier at Ralph's Grocery Co. (KR ) store in the posh California enclave of Indian Wells. To Kovas, the Medici-like lifestyles of her customers -- the personal chefs, the necklaces that would pay her yearly salary -- never seemed so much an emblem of inequality as a symbol of what was possible. Now, though, after the banks foreclosed on some strikers' homes and the repo men hauled away their cars, there's already talk of grocery store closings in the area because of the new Wal-Mart supercenter up the road. "They say Wal-Mart's going to kill us," says Kovas, who fears losing the three-bedroom modular home that she, her five-year-old son, husband, and mother-in-law share. "But I'm 44 years old. I'm too old to start over."

There are other articles suppporting this, but frankly it is obvious that you will not be convinced by anything. You don't even exercise the basic COURTESY of reading others' responses to YOUR thread before you insult them.

[Rick in Maryland]

127. This is an example of something that does not apply to the situation.

The article referenced applies to southern California supermarkets. I am referring to the opening of a second (2nd) supercenter in a city in central Maryland. The article referenced applies to a situation almost 3,000 miles away.

Cashiers around here do not make anything close to $17.90 an hour. Really. Apples and oranges.

Furthermore, I have insulted nobody.

[PA Democrat]

121. Compare Costco to Wal-mart

Better pay, better benefits, and more PROFITABLE.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878085_mz021.htm
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_15/b3878084_mz021.htm

AND, Costco donates to Democrats. There are corporate leaders who do value good citizenship in addition to the profit motive.

Do some reading on your own before making derogatory comments like "Cliches make democrats look bad."

[Rick in Maryland]

128. Fine. If there was a Costco here, it would be applicable,

It's kind of hard to compare Wal-Mart to a retailer that does not even have a store here. What Costco does or doesn't do really doesn't apply to this situation. I am comparing them to the other retailers in the area. Specifically Kmart and Target. I even heard that Wal-Mart pays more then these two, but I don't know that for a fact.

The original subject was how Wal-Mart supposedly hurts "mom & pop" stores. Doesn't Costco also hurt traditional "mom & pop" stores.

[PA Democrat]

131. You have to be kidding

First, you cannot compare starting wages alone to compare businesses. Retention, promotion, raises affect average income of workers.

Second, there have been NUMEROUS references of how Wal-mart has driven down wages in NUMEROUS geographic locations. Why would your town be unique?

And last, if you want to make this a discussion about YOUR specific town (which somehow we are to intuitively KNOW what businesses will be competing with Wal-mart) I would suggest you post this in the state forum.

[Rick in Maryland]

134. It's clear you never read the original message. No problem. <nt>

[PA Democrat]

140. It's clear you don't read your subsequent posts

or anyone elses. No problem.

:eyes:

[Rick in Maryland]

143. I have tried to keep up, but to be honest, when people post links to

articles concerning wages of unionized grocery stores 3,000 miles away, it tends to cloud the actual issue.

I assure you, I have never argued that Wal-Mart pays wages comparable to unionized grocery stores 3,000 miles away. It is my assertion that they pay similar wages to other retailers in this area.

[PA Democrat]

146. Suggest you rename your thread then to

"Will Wal-mart pay less than every other store in my little town", and move it to your state forum.

But you titled your post "Evils of Wal-mart" Based on Reality?" and then refused to listen to others' explanations of why Wal-mart is not a "good neighbor" with documentation of $1 billion in tax subsidies, the costs we all bear because their employees are largely uninsured and underpaid, their exploitive labor practices, the fact that Wal-mart contributes largely to republican politicians, etc.

You described yourself as not really a Democrat but more an "anti-Republican" in another thread. I personally don't understand why you want to post here if you think that off-shoring jobs, widening the gap between the wealthy and the middle and lower classes, subsidizing the profits of big businesses with our tax dollars, and increasing the number of uninsured is all hunky-dory. Because that's what Wal-mart does, my friend, and that is in direct contradiction to what real Democrats stand for.

Have fun shopping at that great new super center. It may be your only option in the future.

[Rick in Maryland]

147. Do not put words in my mouth. I never stated any of the statements you

have attributed to me. For instance, I never stated that I was in favor of:

1. Off-shoring jobs.
2. Widening of the gap between the wealthy and the middle class.
3. Subsidizing the profits of big businesses with our tax dollars (i.e. corporate welfare).
4. Increasing the number of the uninsured.

I never wrote that I favored any of these things, yet you say I think these concepts are good. I assure you I don't.

It's not that I am a big fan of Wal-Mart. I just do not see how they are much different that any of the other retail discounters. I know that might be contrary to what some here might think, but I think all discount retailers underpay their employees. Not just Wal-Mart. They all offer low wages. Not just Wal-Mart. They all offer crappy benefits, not just Wal-Mart. Go to some of the message boards on-line dedicated to Target or Kmart employees. Read their messages concerning their employers. They seem just as crappy as Wal-Mart.

It's not that I necessarily believe that Wal-Mart is a "good neighbor". I think any discount retailer makes a very bad employer.

Wal-Mart does not have a monopoly on low wages and poor benefits. Even when compared to other discount retailers.

[PA Democrat]

135. In my area

when Wal-mart opened a super center,

3 grocery stores closed
the local K-mart closed
the local fabric store closed
the local Hills discount store closed
at least 5 local mom and pop stores went out of business

[kimchi]

122. You have an abundance of proof that WM pays low wages.

If you just read the rest of this thread-including information about employees who unionized and were then fired. And, including information about locking workers in the store. And, including information about WM employees relying on welfare. Which part of this information do you deny, and why?

For a personal account, read "Nickel and Dimed". Or you could talk to my sister and 3 friends who worked there.

Or you an continue to shop at a place that gives money to Republicans. It just seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face, to use a cliche.

[jmowreader]

138. Two ways to avoid unionization

A chain has two choices: either pay a fair wage, give benefits even to part-timers, treat workers with respect and value their contributions, or treat them like crap and fire anyone who attempts to unionize.

Wal-Mart has chosen the second path.

[TO Kid]

125. About some of those Wal-Mart stories-

There are a lot of firms that employ a style of management that can best be summed up as "make the lower levels compete for the boss' attention". I find it doubtful that any corporate head office would send out a directive to cheat on a time card or lock the employees in the store- that's the kind of move that would be made by a dumbass junior manager trying to impress his boss. I worked for a manager like that in a small retail chain- the owners had no clue that this guy was sowing the seeds of their destruction. They were impressed with him initially because he was showing some impressive margins, but they had to close 6 of their locations and sell the remaining three because of the costs of high staff turnover, claims for unpaid wages, sabotage by disgruntled employees and customers who were chased off by bad service.

The stories I've heard about the Wal-Marts in the USA (we've only had a couple of similar stories in Canada and their HQ stopped the practices) lead me to conclude that the company isn't evil, just badly managed. Their main strength is logistics, but their organization is in such a state of chaos that their growth will be tempered by the resources needed to handle damage control.

[Tansy_Gold]

83. Wal-Mart is beyond evil.

I haven't read through this whole thread, so maybe I'm gonna say things other have said, too.

I worked for a Wal-Mart store for 13 months, from opening set-up -- when we walked into a building with floor, walls, and ceiling and we put all the displays together, set out all the merchandise, you name it -- until I had had more than my fill of it and went back to college at age 50 rather than be dragged down any further.

My dad worked for two Wal-Marts in Illinois for seven years, until they fired him on trumped up charges -- and yes, they ADMITTED later that the charges were trumped up -- because they feared his EXPLICITLY STATED non-work-related knee injury would cost them money. Never mind that at age 75 he worked 40 hours a week, was never late, was much loved by the people he worked with and by the customers.

The Walton heirs are five of the ten richest people on the planet. They fund rightwing enterprises, and just one of their medieval goals is to do away with the American system of free public education. They are behind the move to abolish the inheritance tax, so they can keep all their slave-labor-acquired wealth "in the family" and make sure no one else gets anything.

Wal-Mart now employs one out of every 115 Americans, and we won't even go into the slaves, peasants, and prisoners it employs around the world. Wal-mart's main purchasing office is in CHINA.

When Wal-Mart moved into the town where I worked, within months several small family-owned independent businesses closed, including a fabric/arts & crafts supply store, two pharmacies, and a furniture store. To answer Rick in Maryland's claim that small businesses aren't union, that is true -- but successful small businesses that are family-owned provide a MUCH higher wage even if only for the owners and their family member employees. When these people are forced out of business, they have usually exhausted all resources in trying to maintain their equity, and when they finally close, they lose everything. They are reduced to wage slavery.

Wal-Mart offers its employees virtually nothing in the way of benefits. The group health insurance costs approximately $400/month and is only available to full-time employees. Since many "full-time" employees only work 28-35 hours a week, at $6.50 an hour they can't afford the insurance. They must either rely on the insurance of another family member or do without or rely on public assistance, aka Medicaid, if they're poor enough.

NO ONE WHO WORKS FULL TIME IN THIS COUNTRY OR ANY OTHER SHOULD HAVE TO RELY ON PUBLIC ASSISTANCE FOR THE BASIC NECESSITIES OF LIFE.

But that is where Wal-Mart is taking us, all for the sole purpose of setting up a feudalistic aristocracy, where the very, very rich have all the best and all the rest have nothing.

Fuck Wal-Mart, and fuck its supporters/defenders.


Tansy Gold, who qualifies as one of the 1.6 million women whose class action discrimination suit against Wal-Mart has been certified.

/typo/

[MarLopez2]

99. Well said.

[The Flaming Red Head]

85. While working at Walmart as contract labor

I recently worked for a company that Walmart had contracted with to do inventories. We had to work 12 or 14 hour shifts with only a lunch break. We were expected to work from noon till seven or eight o’clock at night with no break. We told them we thought it was against labor laws, but they didn’t seem to think that they had to follow rules. Often we’d be on our feet in a squatting position for hours at a time. The managers at Walmart and our company decided that it didn’t look good if we sat down while working on the bottom shelves (next to the floor) and wanted us to stay on our feet the entire time, and sometimes that was seven or more hours, and they (the management) would berate us if they caught us sitting even for a minute. ( I was told to remove my booty from floor.) Often we’d work on the higher shelves and they would refuse to provide a latter and expected us to reach or balance ourselves in precarious positions. We objected and told them that they needed to follow safety and labor rules. Walmart didn’t care because Walmart thinks it’s above the laws of the land (especially with contract workers) For all of this we were paid the tidy sum of only eight dollars an hours. I quit of course.

Walmart is evil and they can go fuck themselves.

[TO Kid]

126. Blame the company that employed you

Sounds like that firm was pretty spineless. A lot of smaller firms will try stuff that is in violation of labour laws in order to make money on an unrealistically low bid.

[The Flaming Red Head]

136. RGIS

is not a small company, just assholes, like Walmart.

[soup]

89. A little more light reading on Walmart

Here's a few of the previous discussions and articles on Walmart I've bookmarked/ saved (apologies if any have already been posted upthread):

Limbaugh's Substitute is Defending Wal-Mart by CO Liberal May-25-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1663904

Group sees Wal-Mart threat to Vermont by Kadie May-24-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=578551

Calling all DU'ers: Please help Chicago fight Wal-Mart! by iconclastic cat May-24-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1660655

Crime linked to Wal-Mart Super centers overwhelms small-town police by KleverKittie May-23-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=576739

Wal-Mart Facts Everyone Needs to Know - by brainshrub Apr-22-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

Walmart: A wage depressing, sprawl inducing, union busting, benefit... - by JanMichael Wed Apr-21-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

Each Walmart Store Costs taxpayers $420,750 annually in social services - radwriter0555 Wed Feb-18-04
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic...

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The World's Richest People 2003
http://www.forbes.com/2003/02/26/billionaireland.html

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The 10 Worst Corporations of 2003
http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=17783

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The Wal-Mart You Don't Know

The giant retailer's low prices often come with a high cost. Wal-Mart's relentless pressure can crush the companies it does business with and force them to send jobs overseas. Are we shopping our way straight to the unemployment line?
From: Issue 77 December 2003, Page 68
By: Charles Fishman
Photographs by: Livia Corona
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/77/walmart.html

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February 01, 2004
Wal-Mart's Low Prices Exact High Cost
• posted by Dan Gillmor 08:34 AM

Let me say it up front: I don't like Wal-Mart.

Among other things, I don't like the giant retailer's robber-baron business practices, or its treatment of employees. I don't like the small-town wreckage it has left in its wake, or the way it has forced suppliers to move jobs offshore.

But Wal-Mart's customers enjoy what comes from such policies: a big selection and low prices. And Wal-Mart's management and shareholders love the huge profits.

This is an ongoing American conundrum. We look for the best deal today, whether it's in our best interest tomorrow, sometimes because we have no realistic other choice.
http://weblog.siliconvalley.com/column/dangillmor/archives/001741.shtm...

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Wal-Mart widens political reach, giving primarily to GOP

Posted 2/2/2004 10:37 PM Updated 2/3/2004 10:01 AM
By Jim Hopkins, USA TODAY
Wal-Mart (WMT), the USA's biggest company, is beefing up in a new area: politics.

It has rocketed to No. 2 among top campaign givers in the 2004 federal elections. Four years ago, it didn't rank in the top 100, says the Center for Responsive Politics, a non-partisan watchdog group.

Republican candidates are the big winners in this year's election. They received about 85% of the company's contributions, including those of its political action committee, employees and children of founder Sam Walton.

Wal-Mart's rise is significant because of the impact it might have on congressional debates about health care, labor and other hot-button regulatory issues, says Larry Noble, the center's executive director. "They're clearly making a move," he says.

~~

•Campaign donations. Wal-Mart's political action committee and employees have given about $1 million in the 2004 elections so far — almost entirely to congressional candidates. Just $5,000 went to President Bush, and none to Democrats seeking the White House — a trend underscored Monday in campaign finance data released by the center. Bush's No. 1 donor to date: Merrill Lynch's (MER) PAC and employees. They gave $432,104 of the $132 million Bush raised. Wal-Mart gives to pro-business candidates, without expectations, Allen says. "There are no quid pro quos," he says.

Walton's children are big givers, too. Wal-Mart Chairman Rob Walton last year gave $25,000 to the National Republican Congressional Committee. His brother, John Walton, gave more than $150,000 to Republican causes since 2000. Their sister, Alice Walton, gave more than $100,000 in the same period.

•Lobbying. Wal-Mart has five staff lobbyists in Washington — up from one when it opened its office there in 1999.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/retail/2004-02-02-walmart_x.htm

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February 9, 2004
by the lndependent/UK
Exploitation is the Price of Cheaper Food, Says Oxfam
by Cahal Milmo

Global retailers, including British supermarkets are, systematically inflicting poor working conditions on millions of women workers to conduct price wars and feed ever-rising consumer expectations of cheap produce, Oxfam said yesterday.

A study of employment conditions in 12 countries which supply items from jeans to gerberas to international brands such as Walmart and Tesco found that the largely female workforce in many suppliers is working longer hours for low wages in unhealthy conditions and failing to reap any benefit from globalization.

Women in developing countries are estimated to occupy between 60 and 90 per cent of the jobs in the labor-intensive stages of the clothing industry and the production of fresh fruit and vegetables destined for supermarket shelves in Europe and America.

Oxfam claims the buying policies of the new breed of global retailers as they use competition between suppliers as far apart as Thailand and Kenya to demand lower prices and increased efficiencies have resulted in imposing worsening labor conditions on those at the bottom of the supply chain.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0209-02.htm

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February 5, 2004
Walmart shortlists Liberty for footwear supply

Bangalore, Walmart Inc., the world's largest retail supermart, has shortlisted India's Liberty Shoes Ltd to source footwear for its global retail chain.

Impressed by its high quality and manufacturing process, $256-billion Walmart has decided to place an import order with Liberty later this year, along with similar orders to six other Indian suppliers, including Mirza Tanners.
>snip
Once the arrangement is formalized, the Rs. 3-billion Liberty hopes to secure bigger orders from Walmart, riding on its international brand equity.

"Based on our superior quality and design variety, we expect the supply order to go up in value terms to Rs 10 billion in the next 3 years," Gupta claimed.
http://www.keralanext.com/news/index.asp?id=25773

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Here's an odd one:

February 12, 2004
Florida Supreme Court upholds canker eradication program

BY PHIL LONG

[e-mail]

The state's controversial citrus canker law is constitutional, the Florida Supreme Court ruled today.

The 33-page unanimous decision rejects a Broward County judge's contention that the law was based on questionable science and said that the Legislature was within its rights to adopt the law.

At issue is whether the state was right in destroying more than 600,000 residential citrus trees on nearly 200,000 South Florida properties. Another 176,000 citrus trees are set for destruction.

The eradication program is built on the theory that all trees in a 1,900-foot zone around an infected tree are ''exposed and will become infected,'' and must be destroyed to eeliminate further spread of the disease.
>snip
The state has been paying home owners a $100 WalMart voucher for the first tree taken and a check for $55 each for all remaining trees.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/7938437.htm

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Jobs Coming To Pekin, Illinois
Posted February 13, 2004 1:51pm

The Pekin Mall isn't the only growing business in that city. The Wal-Mart on Court Street is upgrading to a new Supercenter just down the road.

The bigger facility is expected to create about 100 new jobs. A temporary hiring center has been opened to handle the wave of applications.

The store's manager sees the strong response as good news for the once struggling economy.

The store's taken close to 1,000 applications since Monday. All of the current WalMart employees will move to the new location.

The store is slated to open in April.
http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?id=3566

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Feb. 17, 2004
Miller report hits Wal-Mart 'costs'

By Thomas Peele
CONTRA COSTA TIMES

CONCORD - Colossus retailer Wal-Mart drains government resources because its low-paid, under-insured or non-insured workers have to rely on public subsidies, such as school lunch programs and Section 8 housing, according to a congressional report Rep. George Miller released here Monday.

With supporters of a March ballot measure to ban Wal-Mart superstores and other "big-box" businesses in unincorporated Contra Costa County flanking him, Miller, D-Martinez, ripped the Arkansas-based corporation for creating "downward spirals in communities," violating child labor and workplace safety laws and "paying wages below industry averages."

The report, which the Democratic staff of the House Education and Workforce Committee prepared, estimates that taxpayers bear $420,750 in social services costs for each Wal-Mart store with 200 workers. The company is the nation's largest employer with an estimated 1.2 million employees and more than 3,200 stores.
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/7970996.htm

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February 18, 2004

Toy wars
Drop in prices, sales force manufacturers to take on Wal-Mart

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Led by Wal-Mart Stores Inc., discount retailers won a war with other toy stores this past holiday season. Now toymakers, a casualty in that bitter fight, have decided to make their own stand.

To protect themselves and toy retailers they see as key to their profits, some manufacturers plan to deliver fewer hot toys to Wal-Mart and to have more exclusive launches at chains like Toys "R" Us Inc. It's a rare instance of manufacturers challenging the biggest U.S. retail juggernaut and its low-price approach to business.

Wild Planet Toys' Aquapets, an interactive critter, will be at Toys "R" Us exclusively for three months this spring before it reaches the mass merchants.

"The success of Toys 'R' Us is important for the health of the toy industry," said Danny Grossman, founder and CEO of Wild Planet.

Said Jim Silver, publisher of the Toy Book, an industry magazine: "Wal-Mart is a very important part of the toy business, but toymakers don't want its low-pricing strategies to devalue their brands and their business — and put more toy retailers out of business."

The price wars contributed to the bankruptcies last holiday season of FAO Inc., owner of the famed FAO Schwarz, and KB Toys Inc., which plans to close nearly a third of its stores.
http://goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040218/BUSINESS03/10218...

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Wal-Mart: America's store or juggernaut

By Ken Fountain
Baytown Sun
Published February 18, 2004

By KEN FOUNTAIN

The Baytown Sun

Is it just a big ol’ store with old-fashioned, customer-oriented values, or is the monster that ate America’s mom-and-pops? In its 41-year history, Wal-Mart still holds both reputations.

Discount retailing behemoth Wal-Mart is the nation’s largest company, with $94.6 billion in assets and $246.5 billion in revenues last year, according to Fortune Magazine.
>snip<
Wal-Mart is also reviled by many for creating the template of the “big box” store, copied by other chains like Costco, Home Depot, Best Buy and others, that drove individually-owned retail stores out of business and shuttered the once-thriving downtowns of small towns across the country (including Baytown’s own Goose Creek downtown area, now being revitalized).

But many say those businesses were doomed in the ever-quickening, globally competitive, service-oriented economy. If it wasn’t Wal-Mart, they say, it would have been somebody else.
http://web.baytownsun.com/story.lasso?wcd=14914

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No ‘Choice’

Wal-Mart prepares to bury the left under a mountain of money
By Glen Ford and Peter Gamble March 31, 2004

Jim, John, Alice, Sam and Helen may carry the world’s most dangerous genetic markers. They are the Waltons, heirs to the global destructive force called Wal-Mart.

With more than $100 billion in personal assets among them, the five Waltons occupy positions six through 10 in the Forbes billionaires rankings, twice as rich as Microsoft’s Bill Gates, the guy at the top. Collectively, they are antisocial malevolence with a last name. These spawn of Bentonville, Arkansas harbor an abiding hatred for the public sphere: business regulatory controls, nondiscrimination laws, wage and workplace safety standards, the social safety net—all of it—as expressed through the operations of their retail empire, which is both the largest employer in the United States and biggest importer of goods made in China. As the Democratic Socialists of America put it: “Wal-Mart is more than just a participant in the low-wage economy: It is the most important single beneficiary of that economy. It uses its economic and political power to extend the scope of the low-wage economy and threatens to extend its business model into other sectors of the economy, undermining the wages of still more workers.”

Such a vast project of political economy is far too complex for four middle-aged children of wealth and the 84-year-old matriarch, Helen. The family’s immediate personal ambitions are more modest: to destroy public education in the United States. To that end the Waltons, through their Walton Family Foundation and in close collaboration with Milwaukee’s Bradley Foundation, literally invented the national school “choice” network and its wedge issue-weapon, vouchers.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/no_choice

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Wal-Mart Welfare

New legislation would chill class-action suits by moving them out of state courts to defendant-friendly federal venues.

by Christy Harvey, Judd Legum and David Sirota - June 3, 2004
Between the Lines

A new report released from Good Jobs First this week shows that Wal-Mart, the world's largest retailer, has received more than $1 billion in economic development subsidies from states for its stores and distribution centers.

The subsidies have come as many states are forced by White House tax cuts and reductions in federal grants to make tough budget decisions. A report by the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities shows states are cutting subsidies for publicly funded health insurance, child care, federal employment, education, and programs aimed at public safety and people with disabilities - all this while ponying up taxpayer dollars to subsidize a retailer that took in more than $200 billion in revenue and netted nearly $9 billion in profits last year, even as it paid workers near-poverty wages, drove out local businesses and violated environmental regulations.
>snip<

A recent USAction report highlights Wal-Mart as a leading advocate for new legislation "designed to kill the use of class action lawsuits, which have resulted in decisions that...provide refunds to consumers and others injured by corporate wrongdoing." The legislation would move class action lawsuits out of state courts, where they have been historically more likely to be successful, and into "defendant-friendly federal courts."

The reason Wal-Mart is so excited about the legislation? According to legal analysts, Wal-Mart is sued more often than any American entity except the U.S. government.

The report points out that courts in four states have recently certified class action lawsuits involving over 330,000 workers. "By contrast," it adds, "three federal courts have declined to certify class actions against Wal-Mart for unpaid worker hours." The company's effort to stop workers from challenging their abuses has at least one high-profile backer: Vice President Dick Cheney. In a visit to Wal-Mart's headquarters last month, he trumpeted "litigation reform" as the way to cure America's economic ills.
http://valleyadvocate.com/gbase/News/content?oid=oid:68043

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Anyone concerned about the destruction of our public schools might want to check out the Walmart connection.

Walmart Family Foundation Bradley Foundation
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Walmart+Family+Foundation+Bradley+Foundation&btnG=Search

Walmart Family Foundation vouchers
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&q=Walton+Family+Foundation+vouchers+&btnG=Google+Search

Bradley Foundation vouchers
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=Bradley+Foundation+vouchers+&btnG=Search

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Walmart - I don't shop there.

[melonhawg]

142. Great job

I knew there was someone here had a bunch of hard-core facts!:thumbsup:

[Delano]

94. The difference between Wal-Mart and Supermarkets...

...like Food Lion is that supermarkets pay their cashiers a living wage, because they are union members. Thanks to the pressures exerted by Costco & Walmart invading into grocery territory, some supermarket chains have been forced to slash the wages & benefits of their employees just to be competitive.

Walmart does NOT allow unions, and pays its employees too little to even afford a modest apartment.

If you like being served by people who are making less than a subsistence wage, go to WalMart.

Even at a "corporate" store like Food Lion (or Publix or Safeway or Ralphs or Winn-Dixie), more of your money stays in YOUR community by virtue of the higher wages the employees make and thus spend IN your community. With Walmart, you can be assured that every penny you spend goes right to corporate HQ in Bentonville AR.


Is it really worth that to save 10 cents on your eggs?

[napi21]

100. My husband works for a large supermarket chain in the SE.

They are not unionized, but still pay a decent wage to their employees. They even get a quarterly bonus based on the profitability of their department.

I have shopped at Walmart a few times. The help is horrible. EVERY time I've purchased any fresh produce, it rotted within 2 days. Their fresh meat is the lowest grade approved by the FDA.

The store where he works was concerned that a Walmart Super Ctore was opening about 4 miles away, but when it opened, it didn't take the customers vary long to realize the quality of products and customer service just wasn't good at Walmart, and after 2 1/2 years, the store where he works is doing just fine!

I still shop at Walmart for Bird food and corn for the squirrels. I buy an occasional can of beans or some coffe creamer, but that's it! If Walmart tried to sruvive on my business, they'd be gone in a month!

I also worked for a fragrance Mfg. that was a Walmart supplier. Everything you've read here is true! Because of their size, they convince suppliers to buckle to their demands. Our salesmen didn't want to give up those "big sales numbers" even though we weren't makeing any money on the sales!

They have the worst business model I've ever seen. The only people that would be harmed by their demise are the exploited people of China, Tiwan, Costa Rica, etc. America for sure would be much better off!

[MarLopez2]

101. Interesting.

I might also add that Wal-Mart operates in such a horizontally integrated manner that it competes with virtually every kind of retailer you can picture, while ultimately competing directly with none of them. At least to the extent we might define competition as price competition. Because of this horizontal integration it creates significant price distortions that effect marketplaces it is effectively coexisting with monopolistically, rather than competing in directly (not being subject to the same competitive cost/profit ratios as the more specialized players). I might call this anti-competitive. Which might be a more comforable argument for Rick actually.

[givemebackmycountry]

102. Last Christmas in Lenexa, Kansas

One of my favorite Wal-Mart stories was shown to local Kansas City viewers on the nightly news programs.

A few days before Christmas, Wal-Mart had a sale on DVD players for $29.00.
The store opened early at 6:30 am and there was already a line of people (if you can call them people) lined up outside the store for several hours.

When store officials opened the doors, it was on!

STAMPEDE!!!!

Scores of Wal-Mart devotees charged through the store literally TRAMPLING over each other to get their hands on a $29.00 DVD player.
People pushing each other out of the way, people shoving each other into lines of parked shopping carts so they could partake in the most heinous of American sports, the successful capture of a "deal".

I remember this pig like woman in a dirty Kansas City Chief parka shoving others out of her way so she could get her sausage like fingers around a $29.00 DVD player. Laughing and snorting as she told the local "news" reporter " I told my husband that I was going to get me one of those for the kids for Christmas".

I was shocked that something that looked a globe with arms and legs with a Marlboro between her lips, could have actually had contact with another human, much less be married and have children with one.

The store sold out in like 10 minutes and when word filtered back to those still trying to get in things got really ugly.

Police had to be called in to stem the fray.

People on local news whining about THEY were denied their chance at a bargain basement piece of electronics manufactured in some third world country.

Sad, yet comical at the same time.

WAL-MART! WE ARE THE USA

[soup]

103. I'd forgotten about that incident.

Thanks for the memory jog. So much going on, only very little 'stays stuck' anymore.

A personal note - My son's girlfriend borrowed my car to go shopping. One of the stops she made was at Walmart. While she was putting her purchases into the trunk a man came over and was just RAILING on her about *Bush and what a great leader he is. She was completely shocked, confused and frightened by his anger, and wondered why on earth he'd singled her out to let loose his rage.

She hurried to close the trunk to get into the car to leave, then realized why -

my bumperstickers:

11/02/04 the end of an error

Kerry for 2004 - A President we can salute with more than one finger

DemocraticUnderground.com

Any man who can render himself unconscious with a pretzel is not smart enough to lead the free world.

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Yes, it could have happened anywhere. But it did happen at Walmart.

[lanparty]

107. For low prices and good conscious, shop at ALDI !!!!

Most of it is the same shit you'd buy from brand-names. It's all-generic all the time. An import from Germany. The cashiers at the stores are paid well. And they are AMAZING considering that they cash out FASTER and don't use bar scanners.

[yellowdog]

110. According to a study I read (sorry, no link)

every Walmart store costs the Federal, state, and local governments approximately $400,000 per year in government subsidies.
1. They offer health insurance but the cost is beyond what you can afford on Walmart wages. Therefore most employees have to depend on Medicaid or the local emergency room.
2. Wages are so low that a single parent is eligible for food stamps.
3. Wages are so low that a Walmart employee is not going to be able to buy a home or afford most rent payments so there is an increased demand for Section VIII housing subsidies.
All of these things actually increase the cost of purchasing from Walmart if you factor them into the equation.
As far as putting stores out of business, we had 3 successful grocery stores in my town (Northeast Iowa) and Walmart put a super center here. The unionized stores were the first to go and now the others are shaky. I am a retail buyer for an 8-store chain of farm stores. There are several items I sell for less than Walmart, but there are a lot of items I can't offer my customers because Walmart has butchered the market or forced such serious cost cutting by the manufacturer that the quality is no longer there.

[truthbetold]

112. There was once a time...

When a corporation like Wal-Mart was considered a monopoly and disbanded by the government.
Hey, no one says the government should be the bad guy all the time. I would like to see Wal-Mart taken down a few notches, especially since they drove my local mall out of business. Now they're talking about putting a Supercenter where the mall used to be.
It makes me absolutely sick.

[Columbia]

116. The only thing worth buying at Walmart is ammo

[TO Kid]

123. Interesting observation

Is Wal-Mart really evil? If you fight against Wal-Mart, aren't you really only protecting smaller corporately owned chains?

I don't know about the USA scene, but here in Canada it's been an open secret for years that the various "citizen's groups" that routinely show up to oppose Wal-Mart expansion are fronting for the Hudson's Bay Company, the biggest loser in competition with Wal-Mart. A couple of years ago a judge even ordered HBC to pay Wal-Mart's legal bills in a zoning fight when it was revealed that the group trying to halt the construction of a new store was financed by HBC and their lawyers were HBC employees.

It's been my own observation that the biggest impact of Wal-Mart's arrival in Canada has been on the large chains already here. Sears held its own, HBC's Zeller's chain lost a lot of business (Zeller's service has always been awful and consumers were glad to bail). Canadian Tire responded by converting most of their stores to the "big box" format and Loblaw's responded by expanding their stores and getting into other product lines. In short, Wal-Mart affected those businesses that went after the same consumers and had a negligible impact on stores whose customers generally avoid discount or big-box chains.

[Pithlet]

141. I'm sure WalMart has hurt

other bigger businesses in the US and Canada. I'm sure because there is plenty of evidence to back that up. That does not negate all of the other points made in this thread. It's still true that WalMart underpays and abuses its employees. It is still true that they strong arm their suppliers into accepting crippling payment terms, including small businesses, forcing them to cut their own costs. Then there's their anti-union practices, which is a whole post in itself.

[Misinformed01]

144. The issue is not protecting local capitalists, it's about being a "Good"..

...employer, neighbor, or citizen. Which, as about a hundred posts have pointed out, Walmart is not.

The move to bigger monopolistic chains is a natural progression in some businesses and frankly the argument about saving locals is about as sound as the anti-Trust types a hundred years ago. The guy that owned four grocery stores, that gleefully put the Mom & Pop store out of business, cried when the Trust came through and did the same to him.

Boo f'n Hoo.

BUT, once the Trusts gained the Power they exploited everyone, thus anti-trust laws. Walmart? They will in turn exploit their employees, their customers (One in the same?), their suppliers, the nation state itself. They will enrich 5 people who's claim to riches/fame is that they were the recipients of rich sperm. They will be five of the ten richest Americans ever and their employees will get an average hourly pay of $8-9 with only 38% having Walmart sponsered Healthcare (Matter of fact your great Walmart asswipes help/encourage send their low paid employees to collect Public Relief), how utterly grotesque.

Walmart is just a less romantic version of the Robber Barons.

[Tatiana]

145. HELLO! The American taxpayer SUBSIDIZES Walmart!

As far as wages go in my local area of Illinois:

Starting wage at Walmart: $7.23

Starting wage at McDonalds: $8.14

McDonald's pays more than Walmart. That's sad. Most Walmart workers receive some form of public aid, whether free/reduced lunch for children of Walmart workers, food stamps, Medicaid, TANF (temporary assistance to needy families-basically cash assistance), etc. Walmart wants to increase their profit, so they don't offer medical insurance their employees can afford (Why should they? They can just get medical assistance from the state and let the taxpayer foot the bill.).

Walmart advertises that they have the lowest prices. That's not entirely true. Oftentimes they will send phantom shoppers to other local retail outlets to find out what the prices of popular items are and then price their items just below that cost. Lo and behold, when the competition is driven out, the Walmart price mysteriously increases (oftentimes to MORE that what the other store charged). I've seen this done with items as varied as DVD players and soda.

Not to mention the workers. The ones I've seen look miserable. I stopped shopping at Walmart when I wised up and did some comparison shopping. Target and my local grocers offer pricing just as low (and sometimes lower) than Walmart.

[Avalon Sparks]

148. I boycotted Walmart for the past 15 years...

but I've been shopping for food there lately for three main reasons.

1. It is right up the street. (I know bad reason, but the other two are more important)

2. The cost of groceries is about 35% lower than I was paying at Tom Thumb/Kroger/Target stores I've always shopped at. and we are trying to pay off some debt we acculmulated buying our first house this past May. Some of the food items I regularly buy are 50% cheaper.

3. Their seafood, meats and bakery are delicious. (I was surprised as hell)

My conscious haunts me everytime I go in there, I swear. Maybe I'll take all the money I save at the end of the year and give it to the "Angel Tree" kids (My fav charity, but for right now we need to pay off our debts, because I'm freaked out about owing on anything but our house and car. (We didn't buy a McMansion or anything, we bought within our means, but if one of us gets laid off, it would be hard to pay off the under 4K debt we accumulated for things we had to get when we moved in)

Anyway, some observations:

Everyone at this Super Walmart by me seems extremely happy and helpful. I talked to a couple of the employees and even the greeter told me they pay for her health insurance and she didn't know what she'd do without her Walmart job.

Also, I noticed that some really, really indigent looking people, and people with a lot of kids seem to shop there. I'm wondering how they could ever afford the prices at the other grocery stores. I know as full blown middle class I shouldn't shop there, but I think it's a good question- if there wasn't a store like Walmart what would families barely making it do?

I'm sure I'm just trying to justify it, but it appears for the time being I've gone over to the darkside and I have been buying groceries there once a week.