Yeah, but did you really get the point of F911???

[skooooo]

Remember at the very end of the film when Moore's voice over started talking about the war against "eurasia" being perpetually waged?

This was a reference to Orwell's book 1984. IF you haven't read it, NOW is the time to read this book. It was important enough for Moore to mention, and Randi Rhodes has mentioned it often on her AAR show.

Get the book (it's even online fulltext) and read it to really understand that full impact of what Moore is saying with his film.

[LTR]

1. Read '1984' here

http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/1984/

The whole book is online. In addition, you can read 'Animal Farm' and many of his other works.

[mourningdove92]

2. 1984 is required reading for me. I read it at least twice a year.

It is totally amazing, how much he saw, how accurate he has been.

[Junkdrawer]

3. I made that point yesterday, it sank like a rock...

I've seen lots of nit picking criticisms about who vetted the Saudis, when they left, etc. but I've not seen anyone take on the main point:

Moore comes flat out and says that there was and is no serious attempt to go after Bin Laden or al Qaeda because that isn't the point. The point, according to Moore, is to create a permanent state of fear and terror so that the current social structure can be maintained.

Anyone care to take that on?


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1867321&mesg_id=1867321

[skooooo]

7. ....straight out of 1984

They're creating two societies in America -- those that buy in and participate in their lies and those who do not (for whatever reason).

Remember in 1984, the society that lived in the fringes - the "proles" I believe they were called? They had to fend for themselves and were largely a-political.

But to get back to your point -- the manipulation of emotions. With the media complicite in this, it goes beyond what America experienced with the Red Scare and McCarthyism.

[Junkdrawer]

8. It's a "can't see the forest for the trees" effect...

BTW: An old buddy of mine have had an ongoing debate for about 30 years: Question "What's the most corrosive flaw in the human psyche?"

He says "Greed"

I say "Fear"

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

10. Greed or Fear?

Tough one.

I'd lean towards Greed because it can also encompass the corrosive policies implemented by Fear.

Suffice it to say, they're both at the top of the list.


Edit to add: They're also must-have ingredients when building a neo-conservative.

[The Backlash Cometh]

11. I believe Charles Dickens said it was fear and ignorance.

But Dickens didn't live in the greedy times we live in today. Not just one Scrooge, but millions.

[Geo55]

23. I say "Fear"

Depends ...unreasoned fear ala Repulsicons
or fight/flight fear as per survivial.
I agree...fear , be it conscious or unconscious has always been motivation #1 in humans.

[Fleshdancer]

25. I say fear too

Mainly because I think at least some amount of fear has to be present in order to possess corrosive amounts of greed. (constantly needing to gain more out of fear of losing it all)

[smirkymonkey]

26. Greed really boils down to fear

so I would say you are "more" correct. I think that at the root of all the baser human emotions, fear is behind each one of them. Fear of not having enough, fear of annihilation, fear of losing face (ego), fear of the other, etc...It's about survival.

Humans have the capacity to transcend this, but it takes effort, faith and work. I think most Republicans/Conservatives are fear based which is why their agenda is motivated by hate, greed and domination.

[moof]

27. The answer is ignorance,

greed and fear can only flourish in an enviorment of ignorance.

[Wind Dancer]

15. Absolutely!!

Moore comes flat out and says that there was and is no serious attempt to go after Bin Laden or al Qaeda because that isn't the point. The point, according to Moore, is to create a permanent state of fear and terror so that the current social structure can be maintained.




Junkdrawer, that was my first comment to my husband when we left the theater! Everyday, we see it played out in mainstream media. It was the most powerful statement in the film, it WAS the film. MM did a brilliant job, very scary!

[lanparty]

16. Bin Laden is a Bush Buddy ...

He's been paid to create crisis in my opinion. The Bush family have been pulling this shit for a LONG time.

They haven't knocked anyone down that they haven't built up.

[robbedvoter]

4. I wish he had the Cheney quote with it: "This will be a permanent war

about 60 countried are involved"

[Nay]

5. Yep. Got it.

But as my son's grandma says, "You can give 'em books and books, and all they do is eat the covers."

Most high school students, if I recall, still have to read "1984" in English class. Only a few of the thinking ones, the ones who already like to learn from what they read, actually absorb the lessons within. It's one of the reasons I never became a teacher -- too depressing to watch so many people not "get it" about anything.

I have no solution to the problem of the nonthinking American or nonthinking human being of any country. I DO think movies have more impact, for good or ill, on the majority of humans because movies can be taken in without effort on their part. Of course, many will miss the point about "1984" in the movie because the act of reading itself so bored and annoyed them in high school and elsewhere that they will not remember even the broad outline, much less actual quotes and country names from the book.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

13. Yeah they still have to read it in tenth grade around here. eom

[lanparty]

17. Wouldn't be banned in "fauxndie" America ...

There is a lot of sex in the book as well as some rather odd marital relationships. I'd think the Fauxndies would object to all that "reality".

[ET Awful]

6. Agreed. If you've never read, read it now. . .

before it vanishes down the memory hole.

[amazona]

9. i got a kick out of that quote

I've been going around grumbling "We've always been at war with Eastasia," since the Reagan years and all the Iran/Iraq garbage going on back then.

[lanparty]

19. The "Soviet Threat" was ALWAYS overblown ....

Once we had enough nukes to mutually destroy each other, it was simply imposssible to have a war with the Soviet Union. Reagan did NOT destroy it. It crumbled from the inside due to the inefficiency of a "centrally managed" society.

Moore is truly a genious. And I think one should sit down and watch "Canadian Bacon", "Bowling for Columbine" and "Fahrenheit 9/11" back to back. They ALL largely have the same theme. The willfull creation of "enemies" so that the ruling class can channel the energies of the people outward. The Saudis do the EXACT SAME SHIT. Except their target is THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

12. Yep, this is 20 years since the year of the setting

I read it in the ninth grade IN 1984. My teacher thought it was so cool that we were reading it in the year it was set. Reagan was in office and was about to win re-election and I did catch some parallels, but not nearly as many as now.

And for those who want to cheat (non reading LOSERS! Just kidding!) the movie with John Hurt is amazing.

[Cat Atomic]

14. True enough. It was an Orwellian theme, with a populist bent.

He talked about the endless war, control and manipulation through fear... all very Orwellian. But he mixed it together with a sympathetic look at the actual people being hurt by the system.

Extremely effective illustration of the class war that's been raging in this country for so many years- and the fear mongering that makes it possible.

I think of Bush's "haves and have mores" quote, and it still gets my blood boiling. This is the sort of thing that ended the French monarchy, and I think our establishment knows it. Hence, the non-stop attacks on Moore.

Now watch this drive.

[TexasSissy]

18. CAROL MOSELY BRAUN likened *'s statements to Orwell on the

Bill Maher show last year. This administration's comments sounded like Orwelian speak to her. That was the first time I heard the comparison, and I have both read the book and seen the old and new movies. It DID seem an accurate comparison to me ("healthy forests initiative" means cutting down trees, was the comparison she used).

[lanparty]

21. Daily Show Joke

Jon Stewart did a joke about the Bush administration manual and showed a copy of "1984".

The Bush admin is combination of "The Prince" and "1984". Throw in some McCarthyism and you've got the neo-con philosophy.

[gasperc]

20. I have animal farm on the shelf

I need to get a copy of 1984

[gasperc]

22. "they only ask one thing in return, that they are only sent when...

absolutely necessary" that line grabbed me the most

and the most disturbing scene was Bush's befuddled look preparing for his 911 speech, that one kinda hounts me.

[Geo55]

24. the 'cons will move to surpress it

now that MM has tipped them off....lest any of the proles catches on ,
and idiot boy has it read an' explained to him.

[Nikki Stone 1]

28. EURASIA WAR also may be a reference to "The Grand Chessboard"

by Zbigniew Brzezinski, 1997. Brzezinski identifies Eurasia as the land mass needing to be controlled if the US was to remain the one and only superpower. In the book, Brzezinski actually points out Afghanistan as the area to be dominated.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

30. No, it's all about 1984. MM even mentions that he is quoting Orwell.

The point is, the "reality" in 1984 shifts from "We have always been at war with Eurasia" to "We have always been at war with Eastasia". Who knows if those countries even exist. Even the past is rewritten entirely. The purpose being to drive perpetual war and fear and perpetuate the class system in the society.

What is frightening is the extent to which the current admin is trying to rewrite their own very recent past, to wit, claiming that they did not cite an imminent threat or WMDs as the primary reason for invading Iraq! This is not even 3 years ago, and all on tape and on the record! But if they say it often enough, it doesn't matter.

Also, there is always some bogeyman. Eurasia = Osama, Eastasia = Al Zarqawi, etc. etc. etc. As soon as one bogeyman is disposed of or dies or disappears there will always be another.

We have always been at war with/in pursuit of Al Zarqawi...

[moof]

29. F911 makes a good point with 1984

but it is hard to tell if it is " THE " point of what is going on in the world today.

Yes, to maintain the status quo is something that is being done
but it seemed Mike stopped short of saying there was a struggle between at least two small groups of elites to take over the world.

If mike meant this to be implied or was saving it
as a next step in a later film or he does not think that is the case
seems a bit of a mystery after moof's first viewing of F911.

moof hopes Mike is just trying to make sure he does not get so far ahead of the masses that he losses them. But it seems mike is saying in F911 that it's all about money and moof thinks that it is all about tightening the grip on control and power.

Money appears to moof to be nothing more than an illusion supplied to the masses to let them believe they are not slaves.

[stickdog]

31. It's Eastasia. We've always been at war with Eastasia.