the cia beheading of nick berg really has backfired, hasn't it?

[texas is the reason]

great going mr rove... a single staged beheading of an already dead american is a great way to wag the dog, but now it looks like they have given our enemies a new and very effective strategy to sway the american public just like the bush administration hoped to do themselves. Yes, the heads are a rollin' in yet another monumental f*ck up by bush&co. these guys cannot do ANYTHING right. They are like king midas, but with sh*t instead of gold.

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

1. Everytime I see news of another hostage

and possible new beheading I shake my head and wonder what it'd be like now if bushie and co. had never picked up that big bat and whacked Iraq in the first place.

[Sweetpea]

2. Ok....links.....proof...please

[Still_Loves_John]

3. I think the conspiracy theories surrounding this

are ridiculous. Of course I'm from Texas, so what do I know?

[TomNickell]

27. Ridiculous, but here we go again....../nt

[skooooo]

4. Cia?!!

What makes you think the CIA did it?

[fdr_hst_fan]

6. It's not without the realm of

possibility, but I have to admit, I can't buy that one, either. It kind of sounds like the old CIA-Kennedy assination theory all dressed up.

[Djinn]

48. whereas we all know

that Kennedy was assasinated by a magic bullet fired from Oswald's gun - :eyes:

[radwriter0555]

7. Blackwater security. Berg's 'reason' for being in iraq changed with the

wind. First he was interviewed by the FBI, then he wasn't; etc. Then he was in FBI custody, then he wasn't; Classic denial and lack of accountability.

He was clearly either a CIA asset who was either given up intentionally, like the Blackwater security guys who were sent to their deaths to create the strife in Fallujah, or he stumbled into something he shouldn't have.

Just covert ops doing business as usual.

[mopaul]

10. theories can't be dismissed outright, nor proven

that's why they are mysterious and almost unsolvable. they're designed that way.

[bigbillhaywood]

15. some hypotheses are more grounded in evidence than others. n/t

[TomNickell]

21. Obscurantist Horshit. n/t

[Forkboy]

31. That's a new one

almost funny too.

[TomNickell]

33. They know. They're Conspiracy Hobbyists....

They can learn things from tiny details us normal unintelligent mortals would never even notice.

They are VERY smart. And MUCH braver than the rest of us. Independent.

Terrorists had white arms. CIA has white arms.
Terrorist had Walmart chairs. Abu Ghraib had Walmart chairs.
Terrorists made victim wear orange suit. Abu Ghraib prisoners had orange suits.
Terrorist cause advances. Bush cause regresses. NEVER MIND.
On and on....


Cogito ergo bullshit.

[southernleftylady]

5. Ive heard the CIA thing before

because of the clothes the guy was wearing because the CIA talked to and had Berg in custody and then set him free then the "bad guys" got him and beheaded him.. did you know that moore had a 20 minute interview with Berg but didnt use it in his movie?
I dont think the CIA did it but i just heard the rumors too

[skooooo]

8. Tinfoil hats on waaaay too tight ...

...on some DU-ers, IMO. I know ANYTHING is possible, but this makes us look kind of lunatic.

[Gordon25]

19. Riddle me this, then

Why would someone who announces his alleged name as head of the group doing the beheading, and reads the statement on camera, be hiding his identity by wearing a hooded mask?
Afraid somebody might recognize him?

In case you were not aware of it, or have forgotten, the CIA ran something in Vietnam called the Phoenix program which was a program of targeted assasinations. Part of the program was to make the assassinations as public and horrible as possible to "spread terror through the Vietcong cadre." Those same assassins were sent after American service people who had deserted in country, some of whom were rumored to be working as advisors to the Vietcong. So it ain't like they have some sort of moral compunction against using murder as a political tool.

Gordon25

[TomNickell]

23. He was wearing the mask to cover the tinfoil....

Why would Bushco do something obviously bad for their cause?

And what kind of 'evidence' is your question? Who knows why religious nutcases do anything?

Maybe the fellow was wearing the mask to cover the tinfoil.

[Gordon25]

29. Wasn't presenting "evidence"

Just asking an obvious question? One which might create in a person a certain skepticism of the "official" story.

As to your question: "Why would Bushco do something obviously bad for their cause?" my response is twofold. First, it is quite concievable they thought it would help their cause by stirring up outrage in America against anyone questioning their policies and actions in Iraq. Second, have you looked at the Hitler ad on the Bush/Cheney website which was emailed out to five million supporters? Why would they put out an ad which violates one of the bedrock principles of advertising and marketing: i.e. Never ever use the competition's negativity in your own ad?

Just askin'?

Gordon25

[mopaul]

30. see how awful those muslims are? they chop people's heads off!

they are so barbarian, compared to us that is.

[TomNickell]

38. Obvious answers....

OK. Questions are fine, as long as you are willing to hear answers different than "Bush did it."

Answers:
1. Terrorists always like to wear hoods. It's a fashion statement.
2. The head terrorist may not want his current appearance broadcast to the world. He may have changed his hair cut.
3. Could be some other terrorist trying to put the blame on the leader. These leaders sometimes seem to be fictional characters anyway.

To believe the contrary implication you have to believe:
1. That Bushco actually thought this violence would help them. Possible, but very dumb. Much more dumb than mailing out a bad ad to your core supporters.
2. That Bushco were too incompetent to fake a beheading properly. Again, possible but not the most likely explanation.
3. That CIA or American Military were willing to cut off the head of a fellow American. And a Republican at that.

This 'theory' is just a dumb and unfounded speculation carried out by immature people who seem to have too much time on their hands.

No doubt there are aspects of the mainstream story that are incorrect. But you won't figure out the Truth by pulling obscure details from internet video.

[texas is the reason]

45. your answers:

1)yes, they did (moral relativity- suddenly naked pileups and humiliation doesn't seem so bad, does it?)
2)time was of the essence, and are you saying that it is illogical to question the BUSH ADMINISTRATION'S COMPETENCE????they fuck everything up!
3)that is probably why they killed him more humanely first (again, there was no struggle or spurting blood with his slow decapitation) once he is already dead, cutting off his head is no different than a medical student performing a dissection in a gross anatomy lab.
he also could have been killed by iraqis on the street, and his body recovered and then beheaded by members of our government.

[Eloriel]

36. For one thing, it effectively knocked Abu Ghraib off the news for

a bit. For another, it was seized upon by the right to help justify and normalize the torture at Abu Ghraib. Made "them" look a LOT worse than "us."

I don't think Berg was a spy, I do think he was terribly naive and reckless.

I'm also not entirely sure it was the CIA -- could've been Mossad for all I know (yes, they're in Iraq) or even a joint venture. Mabye even some of our privatized spooks. But I DON'T think it was Zarqawi and Al Qaeda.

[Yupster]

47. Maybe he was wearing the mask

to make it harder for the good guys to recognize him.

[mopaul]

9. all the men were hooded, it's anybody's guess

but i would not put it past the c.i.a.
why should we suddenly trust bushco? i don't

[skooooo]

11. ..who said we should trust Bushco?

I certainly didn't. But just because something is "possible" doesn't mean it's true.

[mopaul]

12. or false

[skooooo]

14. ...lol...well..

it's possible Robin Williams executed Nick Berg, but that doesn't mean I should start a thread claiming that assumption as a basis for further discussion either.

[texas is the reason]

24. i just think that the net sum of "coincidences" here has reached the...

tipping point where you must suspect that something is up. it is like catching your SO cheating- you find phone numbers, maybe condoms are lying around, and they smell of a new perfume.. You can't PROVE they are cheating, but can damn well suspect it.

[southernleftylady]

13. And just because is seem outlandish ...

doesnt mean its not true! lol ;) I had to! that was too easy!

[lanparty]

16. Behead with a knife or explode with a ...

... daisy cutter.

What's the substantial difference. A life is a life.

Why expect Iraqis to be so sympathetic when we are so callous to the death and destruction caused by our invasion.

I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein probably polished off a couple dozen people a month. But we've managed tens of thousands in or short time in Iraq. Who is morally superior????

[Sporadicus]

17. I Can't Vouch for the Veracity of This Website

but it does tally up a series of anomalous circumstances surrounding Nick Berg's beheading.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2004/5/15/22827/0477

No. 50: "Someone with U.S. military cap seen in frame"

I stopped believing the 'official version' of events a long time ago, and I certainly don't see any reason to start with this one. If it means that I get insulted as a tinfoil hat-wearer, so be it. The official version stinks of 3-day-old red herring, and I'm not buying it.

[texas is the reason]

18. LINKS INSIDE:

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FE22Ak03.html
and http://www.infowars.com/print/iraq/berg.htm
and http://www.brushtail.com.au/nick_berg_hypothesis.html
while i will not proclaim to know exactly what happened to berg, there are entirely too many coincidences and oddities for the official story to hold up. consider the jumpsuit, the cell, the chair, the porky "terrorists" with the white hands and military posture, the chop job audio and video editing and incongruent timestamps, and the lack of much blood or a struggle as a man gets his head slowly cut off with a dull knife and his carotid arteries severed. and let's not forget the "wag the dog" timing at the height of the prison abuse scandal, providing the moral relativity argument to all americans that "well, gee, we dont treat them prisoners so good, but at least we aint cuttin off people's heads!" No one can say with certainty what exactly happened, only that the preponderance of the circumstances show that this story is much more complex than the bushies want us to believe.

[Slit Skirt]

20. i am with you all the way on that theory

happened right when the prison scandal was breaking....suppose to serve as a distraction...just like all those "terrorists" warnings...ever take notice of the timing? yep....just like in the movie...you can get anybody to do anything when they're scared...

[TomNickell]

22. Circular argument, or satire?

I can't tell.

Rove cut off the guys head to gain some advantage. We know this is true even though it was obvious to everyone that this was a very bad thing for the Bush admin. And now that it's proved to be a very bad thing, this proves Rove is not very smart.

I don't know about you guys.

[texas is the reason]

26. ONE beheading was a benefit-

it provided the distraction and moral relativity argument bushco needed. but, yes, this recent frenzy of beheadings each day will probably make america (and its scant allies)just want to get the hell out of iraq.

[Gordon25]

37. The logical fallacy of unproven absolutes

I am always suspicious of absolute statements in any argument outside of the hard sciences. Statements such as: "even though it was obvious to everyone that this was a very bad thing for the Bush admin."

First, there is no way for you to know this. Second, it is not true, a statement which is verifiable through a perusal of many rightwing boards in the days following the event.

Gordon25

[TomNickell]

25. Most ridiculous Conspiracy Theory?????

As ridiculous goes, does this rank in the same league as:

Bush caused the Iran Earthquake?

Bush crashed the Space Shuttle?

Bush blew up the UN embassy?

Bush created the AIDS epidemic?

Bush shot JFK himself from the grassy knoll?


Ok, I made the last two up.

[uhhuh]

28. not really

I have read somewhere online a theory that Bush1, who was in Dallas, that day, was one of the shooters.

Not saying it's true, but I have read it.

[TomNickell]

34. Bush is a Space Alien?

There was a hint of that 'theory' floating around here once. Didn't bother to follow the links.

I've seen something about Bush1 shooting JFK, too. Had forgot that.

[Gordon25]

41. You forgot the one...

...about the Gulf of Tonkin. And the one about the Allende's death. And the one about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
What actual evidence exists (outside of Mohammed Atta's miracle passport) that the 19 religiously insane Arabs story is not a conspiracy theory? Especially when Atta was living in Florida with an anglo girlfriend who worked as a stripper and was holding cocaine parties at their apartment? Don't sound much like a religious fanatic to me.

Gordon25

[Gordon25]

42. You forgot the one...

...about the Gulf of Tonkin. And the one about the Allende's death. And the one about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
What actual evidence exists (outside of Mohammed Atta's miracle passport) that the 19 religiously insane Arabs story is not a conspiracy theory? Especially when Atta was living in Florida with an anglo girlfriend who worked as a stripper and was holding cocaine parties at their apartment? Don't sound much like a religious fanatic to me.

Gordon25

[Gordon25]

43. You forgot the one...

...about the Gulf of Tonkin. And the one about the Allende's death. And the one about weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
What actual evidence exists (outside of Mohammed Atta's miracle passport) that the 19 religiously insane Arabs story is not a conspiracy theory? Especially when Atta was living in Florida with an anglo girlfriend who worked as a stripper and was holding cocaine parties at their apartment? Don't sound much like a religious fanatic to me.

Gordon25

[texas is the reason]

44. as ridiculous as iran-contra or watergate...oh..wait...

[Just Me]

32. You mean (FORMER BFEE CIA) private militia aka mercenaries. n/t

[Octafish]

35. How do you know it was CIA?

Or Rove, for that matter?

The reason I ask is that I don't trust most of the government, going back to 22 November 1963. I'd like to know what makes you say what you did about Nick Berg.

[texas is the reason]

40. i don't KNOW any of this...

as i kind of said in another post, i just feel that the sum of the coincidences has reached a critical mass to make the astute observer SUSPECT that that the official story is false..... you have to give the administration alot of leeway to accept the timing, the gitmo-issue jumpsuit, the similar cell and chair seen from abu ghraib, the fact that berg was detained by the us just prior to his "kidnapping, and the botched-up tape all as insignificant coincidences.
These are all just theories (including the mainstream view), and no one really KNOWS what happened. but if i were asked to look at the evidence with a clean slate, and come to the most logical conclusion as to what MAY have happened, i would postulate that nick berg was killed while in US custody (quite possibly at abu-ghraib) and was beheaded post-mortem as a theatrical stunt to provide distraction and moral relativism in association with the abuse scandal... i say CIA because it seems like thier kind of thing (black ops and all), but it could have been any other group within our government. i only implicate rove because i hate that fucker!:) i have no idea if he was involved or not.

[Octafish]

46. Thanks.

I appreciate your response. I don't know if all or any CIA agents were involved. Same goes for the unctuous Rove.

The reason for my question is my concern for building a solid case against these turds of the BFEE. Any facts and information is always useful. Conjecture and opinion also are useful and needed. We should be careful in discriminating between the two so readers or visitors don't get confused.

Regarding Nick Berg: What we int he general public know about his life and death is but a tiny fraction of what he was really about. The guy may have met or met someone connected to Zacarias Moussaoui (the "20th Hijacker") and did what looks like counterespionage work. Who the fuck knows?

WHO KILLED NICK BERG?

Wednesday 2nd June 2004

EXCERPT...

The timing of the beheading video was brilliant for the West and bad for Arabs. Those members of US Congress gunning for Donald Rumsfeld suddenly lost their oomph. Media pundits deemed the crime to be a deeper kind of evil than the systemic torture of innocent Iraqis. In at least six US states, high school teachers showed the snuff video to their students, as a way of reminding them that America’s role in Iraq was noble. Perhaps a closer look at this video proves opposite.

For al Qaeda to have performed this act at such a time is so dumb, that some people sensed the aroma of rat. If not al Qaeda, then who? Surely not Uncle Sam. That’s too dark, even for the CIA. Too risky. What if the plot is discovered? While this video shows a human body having its head chopped off, it does not necessarily portray an act of murder.

WHY LIE ABOUT CUSTODY?

SNIP...

Nick’s father, Michael, said the identity of his son’s jailers was not in doubt – it was the US military. This had been confirmed to him by the FBI and the US consulate. He even produced an email from a Baghdad consular official, Beth A. Payne, saying that his son was in the hands of the US. (Later, another official said the email was an error). On April 5 in the Philadelphia office of the US Supreme court, the Berg family launched an action against the military for false imprisonment. The following day Nick was released .

The issue of custody is significant, considering the clothes Nick was wearing in his final moments on screen – an orange jumpsuit of the kind familiar to viewers of footage from Guantanamo Bay.

Brigadier General Kimmit said that U.S. forces kept tabs on Berg during his confinement to make sure he was being fed and properly treated as ''he was an American citizen.'' Reasons for Nick’s arrest have been given as “lack of documentation” and “suspicious activities”. Berg also carried sensitive electronic equipment. While in custody, he was visited three times by agents of the FBI. Such interviews would have been recorded, though no transcripts are available. After his release, Nick Berg travelled to Baghdad and checked into the $30-a-night Al-Fanar Hotel, buzzing with NGO types and “peace protestors”. Next door is the Baghdad Hotel, a CIA hot spot.

CONTINUED...

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=1192

[Sirveri]

39. They were already doing this.

Remember Daniel Pearle in Pakistan. Slicy Dicey! So if you do believe it was the first time the CIA did it, they're pretty shitty plagarists.