Immigration Policy, 400 million in US by 2100!

[pizzathehut]

I am concerned about our countries lousy immigration policies. We are simply letting too many people in, legally and illegally. Estimates of nearly 2 million a year. With immigration like this the US population is estimated to be at 400 million by 2100. Like the deficit a horrible legacy to leave our grandchildren in terms of damage to the environment and loss of farmland.

Really when you get down to it this is whats caused the energy problems. Too much demand. Already places like California are too crowded.

Solutions:
First: Work to get other countries to improve working and human conditions so people wont have the need to move here.

Second: Massively increase the INS budget to stop illegal immigration and move out those persons living here illegally. Then have a better migrant worker policy to allow people in, pay them good wages, then let them leave.

Third: Limit immigration to 100,000 per year.

Just my ideas. What do the major Democratic candidates say???

[punpirate]

1. Not sure what the candidates say...

... but, let's look at your statistics. The population of the United States in 1900 was about 135 million. One century later, our population was 280 million. That's a growth rate of 207% over one century. Taking the same growth rate for the century following, our population should be 579 million. 400 million people in 2100 would actually reflect a declining population compared to the last century, and immigration would represent a very small portion of the increase.

What do I surmise from this? That you're greatly worried about an issue which is of no significant importance? Very likely.

Moreover, because of income, immigrants would represent a very small increase in energy usage, as compared with the affluent in the society, which would see low gas mileage and high electrical usage as part of living in the society, and can afford to pay the costs.

Immigration has neither one whit to do with either population increase nor of excess energy use. For those data points we have to look to ourselves, in large part. Immigration, in this argument, is a red herring.

Cheers.

[Hamlette]

26. info on immigration

http://www.fairus.org/

Which seems a pretty decent organization. I got interested in the issue during the Elian affair.

According to the census bureau the US population will hit 450 million by 2050 as a result of our immigration policy.

It's interesting to see the parties switch on this issue. The conservatives were always against immigration until they figured out it meant cheap labor (and the electoral votes of FL due to our immigration policy re: Cuban immigrants). Now liberals are realizing that it means....cheap labor and are reversing position.

[MaverickX]

2. I'm concerned about too much immigration too...

Mainly from 3rd world countries, since it brings in a ton of people willing to work for slave wages. Democrats can't be both pro-union and pro-unlimited immigration. Most 3rd world immigration isn't the act of individuals, it's the act of corporations bringing in cheap labor.

[Bridget Burke]

3. Please, give us more information

about those corporations bringing in massive numbers of 3rd world immigrants!

Legal immigrants have to meet financial & legal requirements to come here. Some of them, indeed, are from "3rd world" countries--I work with several--but they tend to come from the prosperous, educated classes. They keep immigration lawyers prosperous.

The illegal ones usually DO come here individually. They walk, wade & sometimes pay coyotes--but none of them would come if jobs were not available. Corporations (or, more likely, smaller companies) may use them, but don't need to bring them in.

If you compare immigrants coming here to work versus jobs being sent overseas, I prefer the former. They are more likely to be seduced by American ideas of decent pay & better working conditions. Your are pro-labor--does your union have an outreach policy to recruit these hard-working & motivated people?

[MaverickX]

7. pro-labor doesn't mean I'm in a union..

The problem is illegal immigration not legal immigration. But people do bring immigrants across the border by the truck load. Immigrant smuggling is a major problem for border control. http://www.nbpc.net/news/gen/koreans.htm

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/World/2003/06/16/112629-ap.html

No you're wrong it's not mostly just individuals running across the border for American ideals. Cheap labor is a commodity.

[Clete]

4. So tell me how do you LET illegals come in?

I agree that people wouldn't leave their countries if they had better jobs and life styles, but it isn't up to us to meddle in the affairs of other sovereign nations. Of course when we bomb them them to smithereens, I can't really call that urban renewal.

So I have heard most of your arguments, about keeping them out, from the likes of Rush Limbaugh and Pat Buchanan. Also, why is it that the illegal immigrants from scandanavian countries are left alone, helped to get green cards and welcomed with open arms? Yet, if they are from Mexico, why should they be sent home after they pick our lettuce and onions?

[MaverickX]

9. simple..

The Netherlands are industrialized and Mexico is not. That makes a huge difference. By the way I think Rush supported giving amnesty to illegal immigrants.

[Clete]

11. I see no reason why farm workers and other service type workers

from Mexico, who are neededhere, just can't be given a work permit as long as they have a job. American employers could hire them from Mexico, as long as there is some provision for health insurance and living wages made for them so that they don't tax our welfare system.

[MaverickX]

20. well aren't those job sectors..

The most exploitative of immigrants?

[Blue_Chill]

5. Please don't turn the US into xenophobic society like Europe

Immigration a higher budget? You would have agreed to that before they doubled the cost of entering a citizen application while still treating people like shit. I've been thru that system and let me tell you, it's further evidence that other minority get entirely too much attention in this country while legal immigants get the shaft.

Immigrants add to the spirit of america, a nation built upon immigration. Bringing a defensive attitude to the democratic party is the wrong way to go. It gives me flashes to Pat Buchanan(sp?) standing on the boarder with a shotgun proclaiming 'I have the solution to our immigration problem'.

[redeye]

6. Right...

...the US government exists to serve its people. Sicne it's the world power, it also exists to serve the people who're not inside its borders; therefore, it must never restrict the people it needs to serve from living and working in it.

Moreover, the "America above all" attitude is what gave us WW1 and WW2. In the 20 years preceding WW1, Britain acted according to "Britain above all," Germany acted according to "Germany above all," and so on. The result was 8.5 million dead. World War 2, similarly, was the result of nationalistic thinking; Hitler and Mussolini were the ultimate nationalists, Japan supported "Japanese hegemony in Asia above all," Chamberlain didn't want to sacrifice British troops in order to save Czechoslovakia from Hitler, and Roosevelt at first didn't want to get involved in Europe (it didn't concern the USA) and then wanted to wait until after the 1940 election and after there was a smoking gun.

[MaverickX]

8. it's stupid to call border control xenophobic..

I don't hate immigrants I just hate that companies want to exploit them to avoid labor standards. The states with the most illegal immigration have the lowest labor standards. The problem isn't multiculturalism, it's the fact Mexico is nonindustrialized. You can't have free trade or free immigration with nonindustrialized nations. Our workers can't compete with them. If Mexico became industrialized I wouldn't be opposed to more liberal immigration policies.

[Blue_Chill]

13. Yes it is stupid but that's not what I was saying

The post I was responding to mentioned illegal and legal immigration. Our borders should be more secure, you will get no argument from me on that.

[bearded_cat]

14. Mexico is becoming more industrialized all the time

NAFTA has made sure of that. Plants that were operating in the US for 20 years or more moved south, leaving many people jobless. Someday, we may see millions of Americans heading south as well; to follow the jobs.

[MaverickX]

22. Big difference...

Mexico doesn't have its own industrialized manufacturing sector. As you said American corporations close shop here and head to Mexico. This isn't evidence of Mexico developing its own manufacturing sector. U.S. companies can operate cheaper in Mexico because labor and environmental standards are so lax there. How can American workers compete?

[SaintLouisBlues]

24. You are correct

A couple of years ago, Mexico overtook Brazil to become the largest economy in Latin Amercia. This may have flipped back in the meantime because Mexico's economy mirrors ours. The manufacturing recession began with electronics, and Mexico has been hit hard after so many electronic contract assembly jobs were shipped South of the Border after NAFTA

[Robbien]

10. Have a feeling that if jobs keep getting out sourced overseas

We won't have too much of a problem here. There will not be jobs for the immigrants. They would probably rather go to China or India.

[Clete]

12. This is true.

When I lived in Idaho, a state as white as it's potatoes, I met only one Mexican. Why? Because all the menial jobs, done by Mexicans in the southwest, are being done by whites. They are the housekeepers, busboys, cooks and field workers. Many of them had degrees but this was the only work available. There is no market there for south of the border immigrants, or at least when I lived there, this was true.

That will happen here too. All that is going to be left are the service jobs and the native born Americans will be snapping them up to survive. There won't be any jobs left for the immigrants.

[sandnsea]

15. That's changing

from what I hear, the field worker part anyway. But generally, I agree with you. It drives me wild when I hear white people won't clean houses, do yardwork, do roofing, or whatever else. Where I live these are businesses and people are supporting their families on the income. My daughter's first job was bussing tables for heaven's sake. I don't understand where that thinking originated.

[pizzathehut]

16. Missing on the topic

400 million people is too many. One of the reasons people come here in the first place is because of overcrowding in their home countries. This leads to more pollution and environmental degradation.

On race: We dont get many european immigrants because they dont have population excesses plus those countries have economies that provide good jobs. So while it may LOOK racist because immigrants are non-white, I dont oppose it for that reason. I am interested in the environment. So I think we should get involved in other countries internal economics. In Mexico with its slave wages, their is no way to create a middle class. If I was Mexican, I'd be here too!

And just why dont "menial" jobs pay better. In Japan where CEO's of even big companies like Toyota arent as overpaid as ours are.

We are gradually becomming a country more like Mexico of haves and have nots.

[DavidNY]

17. Maybe my thinking on this is influenced by my New York City loyalties...

but I'd actually be in favor of increasing legal immigration. One of the things I love about NYC, one of the things that makes it a great city and such an interesting place to live, is the ever-renewed cultural diversity and energy that high levels of immigration bring. And I would be happy for the rest of the US to become more like NYC in this respect. You call places with high immigration rates "too crowded"; I'll admit that New York City is, in a sense, pretty darn crowded, but some of us like it that way.

As I said, my thinking on this may be influenced by where I come from, in more ways than one. Many of my closest friends are first- or second-generation immigrants, and I don't want to change our laws in a way that would have kept their families out. But I think there's a more general point lurking even there: immigration is what made the US what it is, what made our country great, and a lot of our children and grandchildren will lose wonderful friends and neighbors if we cut down on immigration. To somewhat overstretch a metaphor, just because _we've_ made it on board is no reason to pull the ladder up behind us; I have confidence that this boat is a lot harder to sink than you seem to be implying, and it will sail on into the future even if we let more people on.

[pizzathehut]

18. True, I'm from Kansas City (Go Royals)

I live in a suburban area that keeps expanding, gobbling up farmland. And I've travelled enough to see it everywhere. Forget finding quiet areas to camp in most states.

Your recent power outage was partially to blame on over-demand. More people, more demand. You say you like crowded areas but I now many NYC "refugees" who have no desire to go back after being able to afford there own home here instead of tiny apartments.

I'd just hate if the whole cuntry got as crowded as NYC.

[SaintLouisBlues]

27. We need more immigrants

The feds designated St. Louis as an official site for Bosnian refugee immigration.The best thing to happen to South St. Louis in my lifetime was the 30,000 plus Bosnians that moved here in the 1990s. Instead of wimpy whites fleeing to the burbs, the Bosnians have rolled-up their sleeves and gotten to work, transforming once vacant storefronts to thriving enterprises, and boosting the property values of everyone in these areas.

Other rust-belt cities (Pittsburgh for sure) have made formal requests to the feds to send more immigrants. The Rust Belt (not including the Seaboard) has the infrastructure to handle such influxes, unlike the Sunbelt.

[PATRICK]

19. The best raped plans

Napoleon missed the rise of nationalism as a force. Anyway, his attempt to mold his Eurpean form of unified "globalism" was an abhorrent, bloody ,failed aberration ground up in things larger than himsel although some of the things he championed survived his revision(French liberation rights, end of monrachies(multiple irony)).

Today it is so mind boggling and stupid it hard to even begin. Immigration, population, communication, unified human demand for democracy rights and servicers, shrinking resources, damaged environment. Huge demographic changes are in progress. The current GOP ispart of a Napoleon style attempt to remold the tidal wave. Spectacular bloodletting, waste and futility doomed to be footnote if not the final appendix to human history.

Gaming the third world is multifold. Control the immigrant factor and preserve white power(too ugly and simple to put forth to the public but that's what it is) use them as cheap labor without letting them have rights, a vote, or equality in any way with the top of the pyramid. Keep people divided, compromised. Treating people likje a cold fusion eternal motionless machine or "what the heck, Armageddon for the elite!"

The future is just washing over the fantasies entropic enertia of the partly well off, disenfranchised, uninvolved affluent middle classes. The really affluent are mostly trapped in madness.

Thje Democrats could offer real world management of these movements and forces. if not it will happen ugly with consequences for history that from past experience do not bode well.

[Mari333]

21. Ill be dead by then

and so will all the rest of us baby boomers...so we will give up our spaces for the rest of ya all.

[treepig]

23. we'll reach 400 million in half that time

the bigger picture is that overpopulation is a global problem and us immigration laws are really not a solution to anything. here's support for my contention that the population of the usa will reach 400 million relatively soon:

Countries Ranked by Population: 2050
--------------------------------------------------------
Rank Country Population
--------------------------------------------------------
1 India 1,601,004,572
2 China 1,417,630,630
3 United States 420,080,587
4 Indonesia 336,247,428
5 Nigeria 307,420,055
6 Bangladesh 279,955,405
7 Pakistan 267,813,495
8 Brazil 228,426,737
9 Congo (Kinshasa) 181,260,098
10 Mexico 147,907,650
11 Philippines 147,630,852
12 Egypt 126,920,512
13 Ethiopia 121,164,092
14 Russia 118,233,243
15 Vietnam 116,812,999
16 Japan 99,886,568
17 Iran 92,460,873
18 Saudi Arabia 91,112,265
19 Turkey 86,473,786
20 Sudan 84,192,309

from: http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/idbrank.html

you can get year by year estimates for all countries at this site (i truncated the list at the top 20).

for comparison, here's today's data:

Countries Ranked by Population: 2003
--------------------------------------------------------
Rank Country Population
--------------------------------------------------------
1 China 1,286,975,468
2 India 1,049,700,118
3 United States 290,342,554
4 Indonesia 234,893,453
5 Brazil 182,032,604
6 Pakistan 150,694,740
7 Russia 144,526,278
8 Bangladesh 138,448,210
9 Nigeria 133,881,703
10 Japan 127,214,499
11 Mexico 103,718,062
12 Philippines 84,619,974
13 Germany 82,398,326
14 Vietnam 81,624,716
15 Egypt 74,718,797
16 Iran 68,278,826
17 Turkey 68,109,469
18 Ethiopia 66,557,553
19 Thailand 64,265,276
20 France 60,180,529

how is bangledesh going to support an additional 140,000,000 million people in 45 years?

and fifty years ago:

Countries Ranked by Population: 1950
--------------------------------------------------------
Rank Country Population
--------------------------------------------------------
1 China 562,579,779
2 India 369,880,000
3 United States 152,271,000
4 Russia 101,936,816
5 Japan 83,805,000
6 Indonesia 82,978,392
7 Germany 68,374,572
8 Brazil 53,443,075
9 United Kingdom 50,127,000
10 Italy 47,105,000
11 Bangladesh 45,645,964
12 France 41,828,673
13 Pakistan 39,448,232
14 Ukraine 36,774,854
15 Nigeria 31,796,939
16 Mexico 28,485,180
17 Spain 28,062,963
18 Vietnam 25,348,144
19 Poland 24,824,000
20 Egypt 21,197,691

[Brian Sweat]

25. I wouldn't worry too much about immigration in the future.

There are two reason why people from all over the world want to come to the United States.

1. Freedom. The United States has long been seen as a place where oppressed people can escape to freedom.

2. Jobs. The United States has long had the strongest economy and impoverished people from all over the world have dreamed of coming to the land of milk and honey where the streets are paved with gold.


With Bush and company in charge, this is rapidly changing. They are taking away our freedom and destroying our economy. At the rate we are going, by 2100 it will be Americans who immigrate to other contries in search of freedom and jobs.