What has happened to the moral fervor that animated Jewish

[Veggie Meathead]

Americans during the civil rights movement? The spirit of Andrew Goodman and the thousands of jews who marched with martin Luther King seems to have disappeared entirely.We now see Alan Dershowitz's sophistry justifying torture.And we have deathly silence when the Abu Ghraib tortures are revealed. It is ironic that there is more condemnation of the tortures in Israel than in America from leading jewish voices. It is a great disappointment.

[Cassandra]

1. What has happened to the teachings of Christ...

that seem to have been drained out of Christianity? Instead of concern for the poor and disempowered, we get greed, bigotry, child abuse, torture, endless war and murder, all in Christ's name, apparently.
Alan Dershowitz is not a Jewish leader, he's just a lawyer who should stay out of the business of trying to justify torture. Jews today who want to march are confronted with the dilemma of marching with people who muddle the message with T-shirts that say "We are all Palestinians now" and signs that condemn not only Israel but all Jews. It's hard to have moral fervor when your own side can't make up its mind whom it hates most.

[porphyrian]

6. You Have A Very Good Point

One of the big problems today involves non-Jews' understanding of the relationship between Jews and Israel. Unfortunately, the two are often thought of as interchangable, which isn't true. The matter is actually more complicated.

First, Jews are people with a common culture and religion, and can be citizens of any nation that doesn't hate and kill them for being Jewish. The Jews of Israel are only a small portion of the total global population of Jews, and blaming all Jews for what happens in Israel is as ridiculous as blaming all Americans for what happens in Delaware.

Part of the Jewish religion involves believing in having an established "promised land" where Jews can live in peace. Since the establishment of the nation of Israel, it has been accepted as this promised land. However, this concept has existed for much longer than this state, even when Jews had nowhere they could live in peace.

Israel was created as the result of the aftermath of two world wars, via the British and the Ottoman Empire, followed by the repeated aggression of the surrounding Arab nations. One of the laws of this nation is that any Jew may claim citizenship in Israel. Though this is true, not every Jew does, and fewer still outside of the country are very involved in its politics. As terrorism has become a daily event in Israel, the voting populace has moved further and further to the political right (the left was unable to secure peace, for various reasons), more out of desperation and fear than actual ideology. However, radicals on both sides have decided to blur this fact for their own respective gain - the right-wing government to appear to represent a majority of the populace, and the anti-Israeli (anti-Jew?) types to keep the radicals blowing themselves up. As usual, the civilian majority on both sides are the ones who lose.

Both sides are rightfully upset, and lash out in anger at each other, ultimately missing those who are responsible for this mess. An outsider who listens to either side will find it easy to empathize with their anger towards the other, as both sides are guilty of wronging the other. However, we should all be aware of the deadly political game that is being played here, and blame the players, not the pawns.

[KittyWampus]

22. Israel/Promised Land Is A Symbolic Term

designating something quite different than any chunk of real estate anywheres.

And any Jew who would consider the country Israel as "the Promised Land" is sorely misguided.

It's one thing to posit the idea that those of Jewish Ancestry should have a State and Army.

It's quite another to suggest that such a Jewish State is the same as what is meant by the Talmud's use of the word Israel.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleApple81]

3. There are plenty of jewish people who are fighting the fight. AL FRANKEN

is jewish. You cannot generalize.

[Veggie Meathead]

32. Thank you for pointing this out.I was not even aware of the fact

that Al Franken and Jon Stewart are Jewish Americans.I greatly admire their work.Along with Michael Moore they have turned back the tide of propaganda that has polluted our national discourse for the past three years.

[Blue Wally]

4. Several things.......

1. The Black America opinion makers have decided that "Goldberg" is an oppressor and not a fellow minority.

2. The American left wing has become increasingly anti-Israel and pro-Palestine.

3. Look at the DU attacks on Sen Joe Lieberman.

[LittleApple81]

5. Lieberman attacks not because he is Jewish. It is because he is very

conservative and not very charismatic. If he had something it was Joementum, which became to symbolize something negative.

[Cassandra]

7. Bull!

There were plenty of attacks here about Holy Joe and suggestions that he has divided loyalty. That's all about his being Jewish.

[porphyrian]

9. I don't think so...

The "Holy Joe" thing wasn't about him being Jewish as it was about him coming across as Torah-thumping. Sure, there are anti-Semites about, but let's not assume everyone who had a problem with a boring Jewish guy in the wrong political party didn't like him because of his brand of religion.

[Name removed]

11. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[kiahzero]

16. Nice try, but no

Having "divided loyalties" has nothing to do with one's ethnicity or religion - the problem that some see with Lieberman is that he may be overly concerned with Israel's wellbeing to the detriment of the wellbeing of the United States.

That's not my position, but at least I'm willing to attempt discussing it honestly, rather than misrepresenting it. I suppose that some might enjoy the ego trip of knocking over a carefully constructed straw man, but I sure don't.

[Fenris]

20. "Holy Joe" was not an attack on his ethnicity

The moniker stems from Lieberman's social conservatism and moralizing. He has been relentless in his criticism of "Hollywood" and the "decline" of American culture much in the way that fundamentalists have for decades.

As for Lieberman's "divided loyalties," by which I assume you are referring to Israel and the United States, that is a matter of personal opinion.

[Veggie Meathead]

10. This still does not excuse the near total silence about the torture

revelations at Abu Ghraib.The survivors of the Holocaust who have always championed the concept of the indivisibility of morality cannot remain silent when they see evil.Please read Jacobo Timmerman's diary of his torture by the military junta in Argentina.

[tom_paine]

12. Sure the (we) can. It's not US it's happening to, you see.

We Jews are just as capable of selfish blindness as anyone.

And yes, many of us have taken the Faustian Deal offered by the Bushvik Religious Sturmtruppen who are pro-Israel because only the Rapture, when all Jews will burn and suffer, can happen (according to Doctrine) unless Israel exists.

Plus, I think there is a certain element of relief in that it's the Gays, Arabs, and Blacks this time.

Plus, we Jews are as suspectible to Nazi-STYLE Propaganda and Lies as anyone (especially if it isn't aimed at us).

Basically, Jews are no more resistant to being Good Germans than the Germans were.

More Jewish Good Germans now than ever. PLUS, more Jewish Freepers who would happily guard the Concentration Camps (as long as it's 'liberals' not Jews who are inside this time)_.

[Veggie Meathead]

13. I guess we are all human,after all.Hopefully this also includes the

Iraqi people.

[leftynyc]

14. Exactly who are you looking to hear from?

n/t

[Veggie Meathead]

17. No one in particular but I would have thought that a few prominent

rabbis and the leaders of the AJC and AIPAC would voice their thoughts on the tortures.

[Eric J in MN]

25. Write them (nt)

nt

[Jacobin]

8. Conquest and Empire via Proxy?

Just a guess.

[elfwitch]

15. Two reasons:

One is plain old fear. The cabal in charge is of the type that would have no problem sending us to the gulag or reinstituting pogroms to deal with a bunch of "enemy combatants". We've been around long enough to know when there are fascist in charge. IF regular liberals are afraid to speak up too loud, how do you think we Jews feel speaking up against such "good Christians".

Second, how about the REAL Christians (those who really follow the teachings of Christ) stepping up to the plate for a change? The psychos have been given they keys to the asylum, it's your nut house - you deal with them.

Christian DUers get really offended when the rest of us generalize "Christianity" based on the actions of those few. But let's face it, they are the only ones doing the talking for you guys. If nobody jumps up and says, "Hey these zealots don't speak for all of us!" then we have to believe that what they are saying isn't vile enough to motivate you do do anything about them. Police your own.

Judaism has a basic tenant known as Tikkun Olam ("Repair of the World"). We don't spend our time worrying about the afterlife. We are here to make this world as good as we can because we don't know what comes after.

Sometimes you have to weigh your options. The sorry state of affairs that out nation has become in three short years has made it difficult to make the choice between repairing the world and protecting your family.

[Veggie Meathead]

18. Well said and accepted.My point simply was that jewish

Americans who have always been at the forefront of all moral struggles in the past are notably missing in action in Iraq.You have given a valid reason why all of us have become overwhelmed with fear
and jews with their vulnerability in the past have special reasons to be more afraid than the rest of us.I would also like to point out that some jewish Americans have made common cause with the Bush administration in their fraudulent enterprise in Iraq.Just as the rest of us have woken up to this administration's machinations,I hope liberal democratic jews would also wake up and add their powerful voices against the military and moral quagmire Iraq has become.

[The Magistrate]

19. A Question, Sir

Why do you feel there is any special onus on Jews to be in the forefront of this matter?

The lack of any prominent red-headed men complaining about U.S. actions in Iraq distresses me particularly....

"Can't nobody here play this game?"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[elfwitch]

24. And as others have pointed out...

Maybe they should start policing their own. The ones who have done the most harm are these men, these so-called "good Christians". When will the liberal Christians speak up? When will the liberal Christians take back their religion from the zealots and crusaders? When will the liberal Christians say to them, "You represent us no more, we will not stand for the things you have done in the name of our God!"?

The Jewish population in the United States is by most estimates less than 2%. We are having enough trouble protecting ourselves from Evangelicals and the "Jews For Jesus".

I'll admit that there are many Jews in the public limelight that have failed to commit to the mission of Tikkun Olam. And on Yom Kippur all Jews around the world ask for forgiveness for the things we have done to wrong each other. We also ask for forgiveness for those Jews who will not ask for it for themselves.

So I ask again, when will the Christians of this nation stand up against those who have hijacked their religion and taken it hostage? When will they demand that these evil men do no more harm in the name of their Savior? When you can show me that is being done we will be able to do more because we will not fear for the safety of our Jewish children any longer. However, you will be hard pressed to find any Jew that will be able to forgive and forget 6000 years of oppression and hatred. We always have to watch our backs.

[Veggie Meathead]

30. I did not intend to imply either to you or to the Magistrate that

there is any special obligation on the part of one group or another to condemn the events in Iraq.The only obligation and a moral one at that, is our responsibility as human beings to condemn what is being done in our name to fellow human beings in Iraq.I regretted that Jewish Americans who were such a forceful presence during the civil rights movement are nowhere to be found now.

[The Magistrate]

34. And Yet, Fellow

You repeat the statement that "Jewish Americans who were such a forceful presence during the civil rights movement are nowhere to be found." That is indeed suggesting a special obligation rests with that group, as well as a loose and sweeping statement, that a person who was ill-disposed, or perhaps cranky before the morning's coffee had yet taken hold, might take as indicating a certain animus toward the group so slurred.

In invoking Jews in the Civil Rights movement, you would do well to recall that Jews were themselves, during most of its course, the object of a great deal of exclusionary discrimination in this country, as well as common objects of widespread bigotry. This was not so great as that directed against Blacks, but it did directly impinge on the lives of many Jews in ways they resented bitterly. Disproportionate Jewish participation in the Civil Rights movement can be directly traced to this conveniently forgotten fact. Never underestimate the effect of self-interest on human activity, even that which it is fashionable and convenient to view as wholly altruistic.

What goes on in U.S. prisons in Iraq impinges no more on citizens of Jewish heritage than on citizens of any other stock, and therefore it ought to be unsurprising that there is no particularly greater agitation over it in one group than in another. The general level of distaste among the citizens of our country for these abuses is pretty high, and that is a good thing.

"I have heard nothing against him except that he is a human being: that ought to suffice to hang any man!"

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Veggie Meathead]

35. I believe that the generation that marched with Martin Luther King

had either directly experienced the holocaust or had immediate relatives who had direct experience of those horrors.This immediacy may very well have contributed to their strong participation in the civil rights struggle.The newer generations certainly are more distant from that experience and may not really feel the same way as their parents' and grandparents' generations did.As another poster has pointed out the hostility of the black people in this country towards Israel and their embrace of the Palestinian cause could also have contributed to the decline of fervor among the new generation of Jewish Americans.These are perfectly understandable,and yet it is a loss just the same to see that the old coalitions have simply come apart.

I certainly would not want to say any particular group of people has any more or less obligation than any others to say certain things or perform in a certain way.Those obligations are individual and must come from each individual's perceptions only.

[Eric J in MN]

21. Jon Stewart has done plenty on "The Daily Show" against torture (nt)

nt

[elfwitch]

23. That's Right !

Jon is Jewish. He does more for the common good than most. You have a perfect example of one Jew doing his part to help those who cannot help themselves.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

26. I think you are making dangerous generalizations and scapegoating

as other posters hav pointed out there are a number of vocal Jews on the issue of Iraq and torture

[The Magistrate]

29. Indeed, Ma'am

The whole line of the original post struck me rather foul....

"The principal use of reason is support of prejudice."

[WilliamPitt]

27. So, no Jews in America are mobilized to stop this mess?

Broad, meet generalization.

[Fenris]

28. Broad? You are a sexist!

[Veggie Meathead]

31. I did not talk about mobilizing anyone to do anything.All I was talking

about was to compare our current state with the one prevailing at the time of the Civil Rights struggle.In that struggle, it was the energetic participation of young and old Jewish Americans that turned the tide.I simply regretted that the same moral fervor has dissipated in our current struggle to restore our democracy.

[elfwitch]

33. Just because we are not as visible does not mean we are not active...

Sometimes you have to keep a lower profile. Here is an example of Jewish activism.
http://www.rac.org/pubs/vote04.html

[Karenina]

36. One simple question...

Are you a Christian?

[NewJerseyDem]

37. What the hell?

I don't even know how to respond to that ridiculous generalization.

Alan Dershowitz has nothing to do with anything. He is ONE jewish person so it is ridiculous to even mention him in this context. There are more jews than the few you see on TV.

Also, the Abu Ghraib torture is not something that causes thousands of people to march. Have you seen any christians doing that?

And finally, there are still many jews who work for civil rights. Just a few months ago there was a meeting at the temple in my town, the largest in NJ, where they spoke out in support for gay marriage and gay rights.