Had near fight w/ Dad over F9/11

[Coventina]

No, he hasn't seen it.

But he was more than willing to believe a radio commentator on our local right-wing talk radio station who did an on-air "review".
He insisted that she wasn't just a Bush-mouthpiece.
He totally believes her statement that it's full of lies.

We began a heated exchange, then thought better of it and dropped it.
It was a family dinner, for his birthday. I felt bad about reacting so strongly. I just don't seem to have any self-control anymore when it comes to the rw attack machine.

*sigh* It really discourages me, because I thought I was making progress with my dad.

So far I haven't seen anything in the movie seriously discredited.
Have any of you?

[Killarney]

1. Nothing has been discredited.

It amazes me that people can act like they are so "in the know" when they haven't even seen the film.

I feel your frustration.

[Retired AF Dem]

2. Piece of advice

life is to short to be trying to change your dad, you have no right. Just like he has no right to try to change you. I have to many relatives that have not talked to each other for several years over politics. When it comes to family it is not worth it.

[Trajan]

3. nevermind

[Retired AF Dem]

7. I agree

frank discussions as it should be. But don't let tempers take over where things are said that will be hard to forget or forgive.

[shoelace414]

4. That reminds me of

my Brother in Law's parents.. they are RW farmers.. in the same day he complaing about how high taxes are and how the goverment keeps taking more, and he also complained they they haven't passed the farm bill yet so uncle sugar can send him some money. I just sat there quietly.

[skooooo]

6. Uncle Sugar??

Can uncle sugar send me some money too?

[fob]

34. Trajan is right to pass on banging his head against this wall, however,

I will anyway.

Your advice is shite! Life is too short for her NOT to try and change her dad. She has no right? It's a moral imperative that OBLIGATES her to at least try and shake the brainwashing off her dad. It's all of our obligation to not let lies stand unchallenged. If her dad holds her in any regard he will have an honest discussion. He should be challenged to at least GO TO THE DAMN MOVIE! Offer to take him or have him agree to cede the point. It's pretty weak when your dad will take the secondhand word of a radio reviewer over their own child's.

Of course this is my opinion and the OP knows how to handle the situation best, but I couldn't let your tripe stand. That type of (in)action is what's gotten us in the situation we are in today. Always compromising, never challenging.

Your last sentence is the worst; When it comes to family it is not worth it

If it's not worth it for your own family, how can I trust you will help others?

To the original poster: At least ask your dad to view the trailer - since there's scenes of bush* talking, ask him again if he thinks it's all lies. I wish you success.

fob

[Retired AF Dem]

49. My daughter is pro life

I'm pro choice. I had always tried not to talk about it because we both share the same temper. Six years ago she started a heated discussion about it and words were said that couldnt be taken back. I have not seen her or heard from her since. I have made several attempts to send her email and I usually get a return letter stating fuck off you ain't my dad. So I quit about three years ago. This "wall" has some experiance about this. You also noticed that I agreed with Trajan. I also said if you can keep it civil that is not a problem, if you let your temper get out of hand you can end up losing family members.

[Cheswick2.0]

5. go ahead and argue with him

Ask him why someone can say "it is full of lies" and without them even giving one lie and disputing it, he would just take their word for it. Ask him to tell you one thing in the movie that is a lie and then prove to him it is true. Go to Moore's web site and down load the proof. I believe MM has all the facts documented there.
Then buy some tickets and take him to see it.

[bos1]

8. calm

I think people like your father are getting defensive as things in Iraq and the Bushgov lies get worse. They get really angry and go into denial at the slightest mention -- because they cannot admit how wrong they were. It is like a family not wanting to discuss their obvious problems or something.

But pushing these people at their birthday parties is not the solution, as you discovered.

And no, I haven't seen anything in the movie seriously discredited -- the best that the Move America Forward frauds can come up with is that Richard Clarke let the Bin Ladens fly out of the US, not Bush directly as Moore claims. It is hairsplitting-- as if an official action by high-ranking member of the Bush White House is not the responsibility of the Bush White House!

[BigDaddyLove]

15. Welcome to DU!!!!!!!!!

:bounce:

[Love Bug]

25. Welcome to DU, bos1!

You've hit it right on the head. I've had to bite my toungue more times than I can count with relatives and friends over some crap they heard from the rw media. They're slowly starting to turn around, tho'. My sister, who voted for Shrub the last time, is now a Kerry supporter. She's seeing through the lies. Others can, too.

[bos1]

30. family responses

Thanks for the thoughts.

I measure mainstream America by my brother. Before the war he called me, angry that I was antiwar. Said "it's all Saddam's fault" and was spooked about the idea of terrorists killing his family.

A few months into the quagmire he called me and said he thought it was a mistake. Things were going badly and an in-law had come back from Iraq with shell shock.

Now, he is a active anti-Bush caller to RW talk shows. And the Bushgov has given him a perfect out: They lied about the WMD. My brother believed it and so supported the war. Now he campaigns against the liars.

Come to think of it, this is a good way to find middle ground with family members. Tell them that they were not wrong to want to defend the US, but that they were lied too. They don't have to say "I was wrong," they can say "we were lied to, fooled."

Now if Kerry would just come out against the war...

[charlie105]

9. Serenity Now! That should be the mantra when dealing with

relatives who refuse to abandon their RW slant. My cousin is an atheist, pro-choice, pro-gay-marriage, anti-gun-lobby, anti-tax-cuts kind of guy. The only thing he agrees with the RW is the death penalty, which is not patently RW to begin with.

He agrees that the war should have been planned better. Yet he refuses to vote against Bush. Not that he dislikes Kerry, but he just wants the Republicans in power. Now, how do you argue with a guy like this? I have given up.

[Bandit]

35. Use indisputable facts such as this one

Notice every single Democrat left the country better off financially than it was when they took office while the exact opposite is true for Republicans. Nixon is the closest they have to a Democrat and he took office with a surplus and left office (early) with very little debt.

[G_j]

38. I agree, direct the anger

aim the anger at the Bush admin, the media and the RW radio blow hards. Gentleness with family members generally has the better chance of eventually winning them over. Its hard sometimes, but I have learned to at least try not to direct my anger towards friends and family, but explain to them that I do have anger towards people who are dragging our democracy down etc.
I used to have terrible fights with my parents. I don't think it accomplished much.
What impressed them eventually was my activism and commitment.
They saw from example that I was not just whining and complaining, but cared enough to get involved with trying to change the things I was concerned about. They actually admitted they were proud of me.

[tnlefty]

10. I feel your pain!!!

I don't understand why my relatives feel that everytime we have a gathering THEY have to start in, especially since my spouse and I have made it clear (particularly during the past decade) that we're not just gonna sit and say nothing anymore. It's almost as if they can't wait to Cheney-up every Thanksgiving, etc. Now I just say - are you sure you want to start this?

[Kinkistyle]

11. As long as your father hasn't seen it, he has no basis

I mean, its like thinking Romeo and Juliet is the worst piece of writing in history, even though I haven't read it. What kind of lame position is that?

[BigDaddyLove]

17. Actually, once Michael Moore said.........

that he made the film to help ensure that Bush goes down in defeat in November, one could reasonably deduce that the film would be anti-their guy, and based on that would have no interest in seeing it.

Much the same way that many people here are dismissing "Heart and Soul" (without seeing it of course), as right-wing propaganda.

[bossfish]

42. What is "Heart and Soul"?

Is that another movie?

[hlthe2b]

12. You really can not force change, whether in political views...

or personal behaviors (e.g., smoking, diet, etc )

If you back off a bit, he might get to the point where he is ready (or curious enough) to be willing to check out materials or broadcasts that run counter to his established views.... But, he certainly won't do so under the gun, so-to-speak. I know. My relationship with my late father and political arguments that went with it sound so very similar. He had to come to his own realization on his own schedule (e.g., Nixon) and HE DID....

Think reverse psychology though (and ways to allow him to gain alternate counterpoints without "losing face" to you).

GOod luck. Holding your tongue is defintely not easy.. especially with someone you love.

[mmonk]

13. Nothing discredited

All the right has to do is give a false impression the film is false. That's all that is needed for people who tend to believe them on issues.

[LibDemAlways]

14. I would politely tell Dad

that unless he's willing to see the film and judge for himself, he has no right making pronouncements about it.

[ArkDem]

16. No one has ever credibly disputed any of Moore's work.

He is known worldwide for his meticulous research and fairness.

[matcom]

18. so take him to see it

and pay for his ticket. and have a nice lunch afterwards to calmly DISCUSS it

[ObaMania]

19. According to O'Liely..

Christopher Hitchens picked the movie apart on Salon.com. If anyone has seen this article, please post!

[carolinayellowdog]

22. Salon wouldn't touch that POS Hitchens, I hope

It was in Slate and has already been posted. Here's a link:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723

[ObaMania]

31. Oops... sorry, you're right!

My bad. It was Slate.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

23. And Hitchens' Screed...

Is picked apart, dissected, and the parts cremated here:

http://www.hollywoodbitchslap.com

A fine job is done on it too. Point by point.

Make sure that you mention to anyone who quotes Hitchens that he has scotch on his cornflakes in the A.M. and ask them if that is the sort of blowhard they want as their spokesman. The only difference between Hitchens and the drunk trolls in alt.conspiracy is that Hitchens doesn't post there. As far as is generally known. But you never know.

[ObaMania]

33. Where?

I didn't see it at H-wood B-slap! I wanted to refer it to O'Liely!

[booisblu]

20. I think you can challenge

opinions politely without getting into a fight. If discussion doesn't occur, then how can the truth be told? If we all stop talking because we are afraid of alienating people, then how can change come about? All we have to work with is our knowledge of the the lies and endless corruption of these squatters. This civil war will be fought with words and intelligence, not with guns. Logic is our best friend!

[Bozita]

21. F-9/11 has been meticulously fact-checked --- link

WOW!


http://www.iht.com/articles/525560.html

Moore is readying for a conservative counterattack, saying he has created a "war room" to offer an instant response to any assault on the film's credibility. He has retained Chris Lehane, a Democratic Party strategist known as a master of the black art of "oppo," or opposition research, used to discredit detractors. He also hired outside fact-checkers, led by a former general counsel of The New Yorker and a veteran member of that magazine's legendary fact-checking team, to vet the film. And he is threatening to go one step further, saying he has consulted with lawyers who can bring defamation suits against anyone who maligns the film or damages his reputation. "Any attempts to libel me will be met by force," Moore said. "The most important thing we have is truth on our side. If they persist in telling lies, knowingly telling a lie with malice, then I'll take them to court."

more...

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

24. Those are the sorts of tactics...

The right would use and surely understands. Good on Mikey. Let 'em eat Hot Legal Death from Above.

This ain't parlor games, peeps.

[Yupster]

26. If you get estranged from your dad over

trying to change his politics, then it is your fault, and you will suffer for your boorishness for many years.

Back off while you can.

[Lex]

27. Doesn't Dad have some responsibility too?

I think a parent has some responsibility not to act like an ass too when their child is trying to engage them in a political discussion.

[Yupster]

28. Yeah - contemplate who's more at fault

when you hear you missed his funeral.

On edit -- check out the movie "Field of Dreams."

[tnlefty]

36. If it's okay for my dad and my brothers to call me a goddamned, stupid

liberal then I think that it's okay for me to let them know that I'm not going to put up with that shit anymore. They have a lot of the responsibility that we don't get along so great all of the time.

[Lex]

41. Exactly.

No one, not even my parents, have a right to trash me and then expect me not to respond.

Some of the responsibility lies with the parents, and some with the child, but swallowing ALL the responsibility for whether or not we all get along is just a recipe for disaster emotionally.

[seabeyond]

29. my father has planted feet too, saw this weekend

i have been leaving him alone to gain the info and see, being the reasonable and responsible, though conservative man he is. this weekend i told him, you have been in texas too long. walked out of room and told both brother and father i wasnt going to sit quietly listening to this garbage

i was so disappointed. yet it is

will tell him eventually before election, keep head in sand, shield your eyes, so you dont get information, dont expect good judgement. go out and get the information, be aware, or dont talk to me about it in your cluelessness.

always with respect, i love my father, he is a good man, just lost and old and traditional and fearful

[0007]

32. Funny! I just had a big fight with my father also about F/911

He's 92 with a razor sharp mind. I told him I had seen Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 911 and the theater was packed and they all applauded after the show. He got quite upset and said, "I hope they do replace Bush and I hope the next guy is worse", I said Dad not another person in the world that could be as bad and stupid as junior. It went on for another ten minutes or so before I dropped the subject. He use to get so mad at me he wouldn't talk to me for months.


My whole family are freepers and I love pissing them off. They're always happy to see me and happier when I leave.

[Wind Dancer]

37. I feel your pain!

I have been trying to educate my bother, an old hippie and musician, to no avail. He doesn't care about politics, doesn't see any difference between * & Kerry and hasn't voted in years. The sad thing is, he was once political and came within a few numbers of being drafted in Vietnam.

I would have more respect for him if he had strong opinions on the right but he just doesn't care. I have been emailing him a little info at a time for months, he never responds. It has made me sick to know he can easily ignore the deaths of innocent Iraqi's, an illegal war and the violation of civil and human rights. These issues are the core of my soul, I have lost so much respect for him.

I have opted to move on - my frustration for his lack of compassion is too hard to deal with. He is my brother and it has caused too many problems already. Interestingly enough, since he doesn't have children, the draft means nothing and he could care less that my 4 kids are all draft age. It saddens me beyond belief.

[AP]

39. Birthday present: two tickets to F911

[GumboYaYa]

40. My mom, lifelong Republican, will see F 911 along with her

husband, a veteran, past president of the Nashville, TN Chamber of Commerce, and die-hard Repug. Neither will be voting for Bush in 2004. Both have been converted into vocal opponents of the administration.

How you ask? By leading by example and with love rather than jumping headlong into arguments. After seeing the hours that I tirelessly pour into propeace causes, my mom became interigued with why I do it. I slowly brought her over to our side by finding the most egregious examples of bad conduct and showing those to her. I also fed her growing curiosity by giving her primary sources to read and not liberal commentators. In short, I removed the argument of liberal bias from the start. Now she is outraged at Bush and is trying her damndest to convince her Republiocan friends of the same.

It is possible to convert people, but you will not do it by simply arguing and pointing out why someone is wrong. That leads to entrenched positions. Go about your business with confidence and conviction and ignore your right wing relatives if they simply want to argue. That will get you nothing but angry and frustrated. When they show a glimmer of interest, take advantage of it by emphasizing your common goals, thoughts, ideas and slowly bring them to the truth with solid research that can not be debunked as the "liberal media".

[BillZBubb]

43. Ask your dad to see the movie with you--your treat!

After he has seen it, you can discuss what you saw and what it means. He might say he doesn't want to see "propaganda", but you can ask him if he thinks "propaganda" would somehow influence him. If so, maybe he shouldn't go. Being a man, he'll have a hard time admitting that.

[Philostopher]

44. The Mr. had a similar discussion with his mother not long ago.

The conversation was over movies, and he made the mistake of saying, 'oh, we'll probably see that new one Michael Moore's got out.'

His mother immediately, with no other discussion or prompting, popped out with, "oh, I suppose you both want Iraq to go badly and more soldiers to die? You hate Bush so much, you'd like that, wouldn't you?"

This is how his mother is. She's a button-pusher of the first water, and she knows exactly how to get at the Mr. She hasn't quite figured me out, yet -- she knows sometimes something she says pisses me off, but first of all I'm happier to let him go back at her (just not my job), and second, I don't really care what she thinks.

Thing is, she's taught him well -- he knows how to piss her off, too.

The only thing they do it about, anymore, is politics. Unfortunately, most of the time it happens is when I'm there, and though my husband has always been fairly progressive, and says he's never voted for a Republican he didn't know personally or genuinely feel would give better service in a particular job than the given Dem, she thinks I've 'brainwashed' him into being a liberal over the past few years.

She watches Fox News. To the exclusion of any other news program. But I have brainwashed her darling son.

On the way home from her house after that little bomb, he said, 'the temptation is very great to just threaten her -- to tell her if she doesn't learn to think, and reclaim her critical thinking skills, I just won't talk to her at all.'

I told him there was no way I was going to let him do that. She's in her seventies, she's never going to change, and he's never going to convince her that today's Democrats are more like Nelson Rockefeller than the neoconservatives are -- she's one of those 'always voted Republican, I don't care what the Republican is like' people, and she has no motivation to change. She's a racist, and she loves to trot out that old Reaganism about 'welfare queens' now and then, too, as if the only people in the world on welfare were black women, and the only people who benefited from social programs were single mothers.

It breaks his heart that she's choosing to be ignorant, that she's voting for people who are damaging our country because she knows she's not going to have to live in it that much longer, that she doesn't care what he thinks.

I told him the only thing that might not be overstepping the bounds of courtesy to say to her is that if she's unwilling to educate herself about issues that should matter to her -- like social benefits for the elderly and the environment, both of which she actually does care about -- that she should refrain from voting. She won't like that, either, but that won't cause a permanent rift between them. He's determined to say somehting, and I've asked that he say nothing more inflammatory than that. He'd hate himself for the rest of his life if he alienated her, I just don't think he understands that. I've seen it happen over other things, and I know what it's like for the person who said the wrong thing and refused to apologize -- it's miserable.

He's determined to say something at least marginally rude to her about her politics, and I don't think she'll ever understand that I'm the only one of the three of us who actually can see past November to the rest of her life, and for all I've 'brainwashed' her son into a liberal, I'm the only reason he hasn't completely alienated her by now. It's really sad, to be honest.

[cletusvandamme]

45. Hitchens tore it apart

Here's the hitchens piece. Submitted for your consideration.

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

[GumboYaYa]

46. Hitchens is an pitiful old sot who tantalizes the ill-informed right

with lots of big words and a dashing British accent, but in reality he says little more than that his opinion differs from Michael Moore's. In that so called "debunking" Hitchens cites facts that Moore cites but then fails to refute them. If that is the best the right can do as far as rebuttal, I say "bring it on."

The facts of F911 are unassailable. People can interpret facts differently, but the facts are what they are and Moore lays them out for the world to see.

[Bridget Burke]

47. Here's the article that refutes every point.....

www.hollywoodbitchslap.com/feature.php?feature=1150

Poor Hitchens--once, he could actually write.

[Webster Green]

48. Stop jerking off while posting on DU and go see the movie!!

That is all....

[ContinentalOp]

50. Someone (maybe Moore) pointed out...

that the success of F911 in converting some conservatives is due to the fact that it doesn't blame Bush supporters or make them feel dumb. It tells them that they were lied to -- that we were all lied to -- and that the media and the administration duped the american people into supporting actions that run against our own interests. This might be a good thing to keep in mind when talking to your father or any other conservatives. The point is not to attack and blame them personally or to come across as a know-it-all who was against this all from the beginning and now feels vindicated. Place the focus on educating, exposing the lies we have been told, and emphasizing the tragedy of the dead American soldiers and Iraqi civilians who are paying the price for the administration's policies.

[Toots]

51. Very wise words... IMHO

:shrug: Let Bush* hang himself with his own words.

[apnu]

52. not trying to insult your father, but...

quote: "He insisted that she wasn't just a Bush-mouthpiece."

thats what they all say to get to bed at night. Luckily my father and I are very distant so I don't have this problem. He's a in-the-trenches Rush zombie. But at least I don't have to put up with him.

I do see this in my office, however. The 'pugs here all say that they "don't listen to the pundits" and "Rush and Coultier are poison" and then in the next breath proceed to parrot exactly what Rush said that afternoon. or chapter and verse the Acid of Ann.

This is how the sheeple who know they are sheeple get to bed at night thinking that they are all fantastically beautiful and unique people. Individuals the lot of them. /sarcasm off

:puke:

I've learned to put up with it and carry on, I don't need to lose my job over some stupid rant I might go into. I've started working in other ways. Giving them clues, and anti-W information from "safe" sources. (CNN, MSNBC, Reuters, AP etc) And letting them see the light on their own. This way the illusion of individualism is preserved for the sheeple. I've learned that, that type of person, has to figure things out for themselves (or at least believe they are figuring it all out themselves) The right-wing has been doing that for years, and I have no problem what so ever using their own tools against them.