I Am Fucking SICK Of The 'Abortion Issue' On THIS Board And Everywhere!!!

[matcom]

if you have ever had to walk through 30 or more angry people who spit on you, kick you and call you a murdurer because you are 19, without a job and *sigh* without support, and *sigh* without resources, whatever, you can never know the heartache that goes with the decision.

when your 'S.O.' is called a WHORE and a WITCH and a BITCH and a SLUT and a CUNT and everything else.... and you can do NOTHING about it. you cannot fight but THEY CAN try and block you entrance

i hope every one of the fuckwads standing in that parking lot dies a slow, painful, miserable death and i hope it started 15 years ago.

Hell. HELL is what these people go through from start to finish. i just "LOVE" it when people debate on EITHER SIDE when they cannot FATHOM what it is like. STOP IT. PLEASE STOP IT NOW! you just do not know. you cannot know. sorry.

that is ALL i will say about this

[Lindacooks]

1. You're absolutely right.

And I'm so sorry that you had to go through that.

This issue is an issue of privacy. PERIOD. It's nobody else's business. PERIOD.

[0007]

4. "Your freedom ends where my nose begins"

End of fucking story

[Nederland]

2. Try the hide thread feature

...or is it not working?

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nederland]

14. How Amusing

Tired of seeing abortion threads, you start another...

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Nederland]

20. Yes I do

I believe that abortion should stay legal.

I also believe that if someone doesn't like threads on a particular topic, they should hide them.

[wuushew]

3. I agree

especially since there has been no new noteworthy news item or items to prompt such a torrent of posts.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

6. My San Diego office was located in a building with a women's clinic

a few years back. One of my employees at 8 months pregnant and HUGE was assaulted by one of these fucking nut case males who was at least as fanatical as DU's very own resident anti-choice woman hating gay male happens to be (mommy issues will do that to you)...she was simply trying to come to work.

[LondonAmerican]

18. I don't understand

why you assume that because someone is gay that he is a 'woman hater' or his opinion is worthless.

I do not know who you are talking about but I do know from your post that you think that because he is gay you feel you can insult him for it. I resent that you seem to think that it is OK to gaybash as long as you say it's for a 'progressive' cause.

[Fenris]

22. Um, Dude, you MIGHT want to back off here...

SERIOUSLY.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

27. I am gay, for the record..and the person has a long history

of posting misogynistic tripe...on several issues not just abortion.

I've also been gay for over 3 decades and know the type...had enough of them glare at me over the years when I walked into THEIR bars to know I typecasted this individual accurately...if you are gay you've met them too.

I make no assumptions..he is defined by his posts..and the rules of the board prevent me from being more than cryptic.

No gaybashing intended nor implied.

[outinforce]

49. Come On, nothingshocksmeanymore,

We all really, really want to know the screen name that this "anti-choice woman hating gay male with mommy issues posts under.

We all really, really want to know who this terrible person is who posts "misogyinstic tripe".

We all want to know who this "type" of person is.

We all want to know exactly what sort of bars this person frequents.

No, you don't really want to bash gays.

Just gay males who have the balls to disagree with you.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

52. Ooh...balls...no just gay males who express disdain for women

in a variety of ways...and there are DOZENS of women on this board who would recognize THAT poster.

BTW..it's rather telling that you equate courage with balls..I equate balls with balls and courage with courage...nothing like a verite performance act.

[JanMichael]

131. Ha! I wish I knew who you are talking to!

I am going to have to log off Michael's name and re-read this thread...delicately put, that name is just not showing up for some reason-

God, sometimes I love technology!

:)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

147. Can I borrow his account?

[Kipepeo]

60. There is a difference

between having the balls (*barf*) to disagree with someone and pushing a sexist agenda (I think she was talking about the latter).

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

102. Zing!

[Forkboy]

79. I assumed she was talking about you

:shrug:

[Runcible Spoon]

68. context, darling, context...

read any of the abortion threads and you'll get an idea of whom we are speaking...
on edit: look who just joined the party!

[Cheswick2.0]

178. first you admit you don't know what you are talking about and then

you just keep on talking. Now, is that smart?

[Fenris]

19. "anti-choice woman hating gay male"

Curious. I wasn't aware that we had Andrew Sullivan on this board.

[outinforce]

43. Who Is That?

"was assaulted by one of these fucking nut case males who was at least as fanatical as DU's very own resident anti-choice woman hating gay male happens to be (mommy issues will do that to you)"

Just who are you talking about here, nothingshocksmeanymore??

Does this "fanatical", "anti-choice", "woman-hating" gay male with "mommy issues" have a screen name?

Care to post it?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

56. no that would be against the rules....

but since you had an easy time finding me..respond to this:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1888754&mesg_id=1890387

[thebigidea]

65. weird that you would get defensive over "woman-hating"

Why would you feel compelled to respond, are you a woman-hater?

[noiretextatique]

76. LMAO

teehee :hi: that's too funny, sweetie. thanks for the laff :7

[Forkboy]

81. lmao

nailed

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

106. Hey I just got an idea for a new thebigidea feature film

:hi:

[demigoddess]

77. If you are going to lambast people please

get your punctuation correct. Were you trying to say
anti-choice,woman-hating gay male ??
Seems kind of an contradiction to me. Maybe somebody is pushing your buttons.

[Sandpiper]

7. The right wants to take away

Both a woman's right to choose, and the social safety net.

In other words, they want to make sure that if a teenage girl gets pregnant, she is forced to raise a child in poverty.

[ScreamingMeemie]

8. And this time I won't even get mad at you.

Watch the language though...;) ;) ;) :o

[matcom]

9. truth and circumstance unfortunately are reality

and they hurt

[ScreamingMeemie]

13. Although I do know what it's like to have a baby scraped and a couple

of times yanked. After miscarriage. And then the insurance company wouldn't cover them because they thought I had "elected" to have the procedures done. Just as sickening. Women are screwed coming and going yet in this country.

[iamjoy]

10. Some Do Know What It Is Like

n/t

[Political_Junkie]

11. sorry, man.

:hug:

[merh]

12. Thank you - nuff said.

:grouphug:

[LoZoccolo]

16. You actually do state a position in there...

...but your point is taken.

I've pretty much refrained from posting a position on this issue and talked mainly about how I think a lot of people on the pro-choice side stray from the real controversy and start talking about other things surrounding abortion, and I think people will be at an impasse about abortion for a long long long long time as long as they don't discuss the real issues because there's two different arguments going on. But I think there will be an impasse on this board as well for the same reason - some people say it's ending a life, and other people don't, some people just fall on one side, some people just fall on the other. That's why it's an impasse, but I think people should just discuss it that way; even if it just becomes a back-and-forth shouting match about yes-it-is no-it-isn't at least we'll have the real controversy up front.

So I pretty much just give pointers on how people should argue, rather than argue for a side here.

Here's one I haven't posted before: if women want to really fight for abortion rights, then they should eat the fetus, like animals do in the wild. That way, everyone would know they are serious.

[WilliamPitt]

21. "they should eat the fetus"

Easily one of the most fucked-up things I have ever seen on this board.

[Swamp Rat]

121. Must've been a cannibal that suggested that... since he/she thought of it.

I know who the REAL cannibals are - just watch FOX News - they're everywhere, wearing 3 piece suits driving Hummers!

[matcom]

24. eat the FETUS????

are you fucking INSANE or am i missing something?

[THUNDER HANDS]

28. Eat the fetus???

Gotta be a great name for a band, or at the very least, a song.

[THUNDER HANDS]

29. oh by the way

you're a very weird person.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

31. And men should die when they impregnate the queen just like bees do

feel better now?

(Du fellas..hope you know I said that in jest ;) )

[KittyWampus]

47. In Desperately Poor Societies HUMANS DO EAT THEIR CHILDREN

that is a fact.

[Andromeda]

36. That's a sick thing to say.

Here's one I haven't posted before: if women want to really fight for abortion rights, then they should eat the fetus, like animals do in the wild. That way, everyone would know they are serious.


:puke:

[Blue_Roses]

37. this post makes absolutely

NO SENSE..."eat the fetus..." :puke: sick...this has to be the worst post I have ever seen on this board

[charlie]

70. I'd like to know

what animal snorkels into its own uterus for a snack. Eating the ejecta after miscarriage I've heard of, but not eating fetii to cause an abortion.

[LoZoccolo]

74. OK I'M KIDDING! I'M KIDDING!

(Had to say that before this whole thread gets locked soon in lieu of going through the effort of deleting all the violating posts.)

Trying to intentionally pour gas on a heated conversation is just my way of saying I don't the way discussions of this issue go either. :+

Believe it or not, I didn't make up this joke.

[West Coast Democrat]

75. "like animals do in the wild"?

Can you give me a credible source and example for when this happens in the wild? I've never heard of this before.

[Runcible Spoon]

80. OK, only if you eat the foreskin...

when you decide to circumcise your son
:wtf: :crazy:

[Forkboy]

83. That's just fucked

get help.

[demigoddess]

86. In order to be serious about having access to birth control

a woman has to eat the fetus? Are you insane?? When they outlaw abortion, the next step will be to outlaw many, perhaps all, forms of birth control. That is why they are called anti-choice and we are pro-choice. During the time it was illegal to have an abortion or to use birth control it was also illegal (grounds for divorce) to say no to your husband. You notice, it was not illegal to say no to a wife. Another reason we call it anti-choice.

[LoZoccolo]

138. I wasn't saying they have to.

I was saying that would be an effective way for activists to show that they are serious. It would seriously one-up Operation Rescue tactics.

[Scout]

17. former clinic escort

been there, seen that, and then some.

Pro-lifers chased us in the parking lot with their van, good thing we were agile enough to avoid being run over.

Pro-lifer sent his 8-yr old daughter to the road-side (access road to major expressway) with a sign, a good 100 yards or more away from any adult supervision ... she could have easily been snatched or hurt or killed ... but she had her sign, to save the babies! ... we called the police, and of course he went and brought her away from the road before they got there.

[MikeG]

23. OK. Hey matcom, how do you think the Sox will do this year?

[Malva Zebrina]

25. it is guilt that is imposed

that may be the cause of the angst.

It is the guilt imposed that one is "killing" a human being, that is at the bottom of the terrible feelings of guilt.

There is NO guilt, imo.

An abortion is a phylsical solution to a pregnancy that is not wanted. The fetus that is aborted is only a blob of cells. If one subscribes to the notion that they are killing a '
"baby" then I would say the anti-abortion and pro-life nutcakes have gotten their message across. They have imposed "guilt" upon the woman desiring to control her own life.

There is nothing but one tablespoon of blood and debris, that is nothing but a collecton of cells, in an abortion. It is NOT a born child with rights of the living. IT is simply a collections of cells and a blob of nothing.

If one subscribes to the notion it is a human being, although it consists of sixteen or so cells, and if one subscribes to the fantasy that this collection of cells has a "soul" then one is locked into guilt imposed by a religious belief, and also by those who would taunt one in front of the clinic that helps women in their reproductive health, and one will be locked into the notion that one will be "punished" by a god who is all loving,(moreso toward the unborn collection of cells than for the actual living woman) for doing away with a few cells in order to take control over their own life.

[devilgrrl]

26. So am I. You don't like abortion! Then don't have one!!!!

Other than that - stay out of my crotch!

[MikeG]

30. If men could have babies, there would be NO pro-lifers.

[Guaranteed]

34. See, now you're turning it into a men vs. women issue.

NOT a good move. We won't win with that. It's for this reason, if for no other, that this still needs to be discussed on this board. We need to put our best arguments out there, not the "Shut up, male!" argument.

[MikeG]

40. Think the Bears have a chance?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

41. Not completely valid..do women get to castrate men that abandon

their children? Can you name a single reproductive right a woman imposes on a male body?

[3 Cents and Change]

45. Yes.

Women can choose to have an abortion against the will of the man. However, if they choose the have the child the man is still responsible for it.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

54. Yawn...you are comingling the issue of a woman's right over her person

and the child's right to live in the manner of it's most financially secure parent...I love people who collapse this domain...no matter how moronic the reasoning is.

I don't use near the services I pay in taxes...it's an injustice prevalent in many areas of the law..not exclusive to women's and men's rights.

[3 Cents and Change]

59. It's just the point where choice is made...

Men are required to make the choice at the time they have sex.

Women are allowed to make the choice when they find out they got pregnant.

That's all I'm saying. When there are threads on the subject of whether anti-abortion or anti-choice is the right term, the point of the choice is pretty important in my opinion.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

62. So blame god, the cosmic muffin, nature, biology, science or whatever

Tough shit...that's just reality

[3 Cents and Change]

69. No shit?

"Sex causes pregnancy. That's life, tough shit. You should have thought about pregnancy before you went and screwed around. Tough shit."

How does that sound?

It's basically what you're saying. Your argument is nothing more than the words of somebody who doesn't want to confront the real issue.

We're killing people in Iraq.

"Tough shit...deal with it."

The rich in this nation continue to get richer on the backs of the poor.

"Tough shit...that's just reality"

[noiretextatique]

82. the real issue is only women get pregnant

and unfortunately, women are still mainly responsible for taking care of children. it's still very OPTIONAL for some men. of course not all men, but some.

[Yupster]

88. Instead of Iraq, I thought of

slavery.

So we have slavery in Alabama. Tough shit. Deal with it. -- Great argument.

[noiretextatique]

100. and that's exactly what happened for several hundred years

people just dealt with it, enriched themselves from it, and became used to the privilege of it all. so much so, that they created another wonderful system, jim crow, that lasted another hundred years.

[Cheswick2.0]

181. Slavery was something we could change

When you figure out how to make men get pregnant your post might almost have a point.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

128. No..you are taking several invalid comparisons and using them as though

they have any relevance to the discussion..the REAL issue is a medical decision that should be left to the person with the medical condition.

Last time I looked, paying child support was not a medical condition but a financial condition.

The courts decided that the rights of the child were more important than the rights of men..and realized that letting men off the hook for reproducing as often as they liked without consequence was poor public policy if children were to survive with food in their stomach's and a roof over their heads...so they made it more inconvenient for males to plant their seeds willy nilly without consequence...the woman SHARES those same consequences especially if she has custody...so I don't really see an issue of fairness or equity there.

[Yupster]

84. But that's not a fair standard

It's a sexist standard.

The law needs to be that both partners make the choice at the point of sex, or

they each make the choice at the point of finding out a pregnancy exists.

The current standard is just not equitable.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

130. Too bad and I hate repeating myself

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=1890388&mesg_id=1891034

[RobinA]

170. It's Not Equitable

because the situation is not equitable. It never can be. You can not equalize pregnancy in any equitable way. There's no way of getting around the physical facts of the situation. The woman will always be able to chose whether to have the baby and the man will always be able to chose whether to run. Some men end up supporting children they would rather not have had, some women will end up abandoned with a child.

One good way of HELPING this happen less frequently is to bring birth control out of the closet. But nooooooooooo...

[Cheswick2.0]

182. sure, just as soon as men can get pregnant

D'oh

[Cheswick2.0]

180. get a sex change

then you too can have all the advantages of being a woman.

[oldcoot]

64. It is not the same thing

Pregnancy effects a woman's body. Unlike men, women can actually die from a pregnancy. No man or woman (yes, it some cases, women are required to pay child support)has ever died from paying child support. While child support laws may not be completely fair, requiring the noncustodial parent to pay child support is not the same thing as forcing another human being to reproduce against his or her will.

[3 Cents and Change]

73. You're right.

But your argument doesn't apply to the 90%+ abortions that don't have anything at all to do with the life of the mother, rape, or incest.

Look, somebody just asked for an example of where men's reproductive rights are less than women's. I pointed it out. Men have to choose whether to take the risk at the time of sex, women can choose when they find out if they are pregnant. That's all I'm saying.

[oldcoot]

89. Where do you get that statistic?

Considering that rape is one of the most under reported crimes, I find it unlikely that any group would have an accurate statistic for the number of rape victims who seek abortions.

[3 Cents and Change]

98. It's closer to 94%

...and while I'm too damned lazy tonight to go find the links again, trust me, I didn't make it up. I've just done too much research on abortion statistics for a research paper I did. Take it for what it's worth.

Even the studies that took the most liberal (not liberal as in politics, as in statistics) methods of estimating the amount of abortions due to rape/incest put the number of 'birth control' abortions near 90%. The most commonly accepted numbers are in the 94 to 96% range for abortions that are performed as a means of birth control as opposed to rape/incest/life-of-mother.

No, there's no way to tell with 100% accuracy how many abortions are due to rape just like there's no way to know with 100% accuracy what the population of Boise, Idaho is. However, that's why statisticians make the big bucks to figure it out. They’ve done one hell of a lot more research on the subject than either us have.

[merh]

113. If you just did a research paper, I would think it has a

bibliography so you should be able to provide your sources.

[3 Cents and Change]

115. It does.

But I'm sitting at work and it's sitting in a storage container about ten miles away. You don't have to believe me, it's your choice.

I know what the research says and you unfortunately aren't going to change the facts with the "where's the link?" stuff.

[3 Cents and Change]

123. One minor link.

Here’s one link you would have found if you did about five minutes worth of web research on the subject. It doesn’t attempt to modify the stats on rape, it just takes the numbers reported by women having abortions. Like I said, even the most liberal attempts to put a number on that don’t put the number of ‘birth control’ abortions much lower than 90%.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

However, I doubt you are going to listen to any facts that don’t agree with your opinion.

[oldcoot]

142. Have you read Mr. Johnston's other publications?

They look fascinating. For those individuals who have no idea what I am talking about see: http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/about.html and http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abriskeditorial.html for more information.

[3 Cents and Change]

151. no

No, I haven't. That was just one Google search in resonse to somebody who wanted some stats. Is he some kind of right wing zealot?

Regardless, the numbers are this the numbers.

If you want me to give you some better sources, I'll see if I can't find the box with that old stuff.

[oldcoot]

172. Yes, he appears to be a right-wing zealot

According to his web site, he frequently writes letters to the editor supporting conservative causes. He also does not believe that humans are responsible for global warming.

Do not worry about finding your box. I am sure you have better things to do with your time.

[JohnLocke]

171. Hmm.

I found this at About.com. It's complied by Nikki Katz:

Abortion Statistics - Decisions to Have an Abortion (U.S.)
25.5% of women deciding to have an abortion want to postpone childbearing.
21.3% of women cannot afford a baby.
14.1% of women have a relationship issue or their partner does not want a child.
12.2% of women are too young (their parents or others object to the pregnancy.)
10.8% of women feel a child will disrupt their education or career.
7.9% of women want no (more) children.
3.3% of women have an abortion due to a risk to fetal health.
2.8% of women have an abortion due to a risk to maternal health.

[merh]

99. Reproductive rights do not equate to parental rights. (eom)

[Yupster]

91. That's why abortion should remain legal

But now why should a father be forced to pay child support if he doesn't want the kid and doesn't even know the mom's name?

[merh]

110. Punishment for being stupid enough to have sex with a woman

when he doesn't even know her name. Sounds to me like a quad condom moment!

[oldcoot]

127. A one-night stand verses a long-term relationship

If the child resulted from a one-night stand, then he should not have to pay child support. However, if a man enters a long-term relationship with a woman and they decide to have children together, he is responsible for helping to raise those children. For example, I do not believe that a man should be able to divorce his wife after ten years of marriage and expect to be free of all responsibility for caring for his children. If he wishes to sue for custody of the children, that is his right. However, he should not be able to walk away from them after 5 or 10 years.

There seems to be perception that women just leech off of men. I have generally found this perception to be incorrect. In many cases, women are responsible for the majority of the child-rearing duties in an household. I also have known single mothers who not only were responsible for the childrearing duties but also worked more than one job to support their kids.

[Yupster]

165. My solution is

that if an unmarried woman finds out she's pregnant, she must tell the father within some amount of time. The father then must in writing either pledge to support the baby, or decline to.

Then the mother has full authority whether to have the baby or not, but she does it with the knowledge of whether there will be a father or not.

That way, the woman still makes the decision, but the man is not forced to be a father without his consent.

To me that's equitable to each side.

[oldcoot]

173. I agree with your solution

If an unmarried woman wants child support, she should inform the father within a reasonable amount of time. She should not approach the father five-to-ten years later and say "guess what?"

[Cheswick2.0]

179. wwwaaaaaaaaaaaaa

poor poor put upon discriminated against powerless men. :cry:

[Guaranteed]

48. NO ONE should be imposing reproductive rights on ANYONE'S

body. That is my point.

When we turn this into a women vs. men issue it distracts from the civil liberties and health care issues at hand. We keep going like this and we're going to keep losing. We have to redefine this issue.

[Yupster]

78. No one should be forced

to be responsible for a child they don't want. Man or woman.

The argument of no one should be responsible for a child they don't want, unless it's a man is not a reasonable argument.

[Guaranteed]

93. The woman's right to control her body easily trumps the man's rights

in that case.

You have to look at this from a civil liberties point of view, case by case.

[Yupster]

97. I agree - the woman should have

absolute decision on if an abortion shall occur.

So how does that give her permission to hit the father up for child support payments for 18 years? How do those two things go together?

[noiretextatique]

103. one is a fetus...the other is a child

one is IN the woman's body, the other isn't.
do you think men should support their children? or is it just greedy women "hitting them up." :eyes: of all the idiotic arguments (no even sure WHAT this is...but let's assume it's "pro-life") against WHAT (not sure what this is against or supporting) this has to be the most idiotic.

[Yupster]

166. The point is that a person should not have to bear the

consequences of a decision that someone else made.

If it's the woman's decision, 100 % then it should be the woman's responsibility. If it's a shared responsibility, then it should be a shared decision.

If the state feels the interest of the child is most important, then the state should pick up the burden, not the guy who had no decision on whether the baby was born or not.

The most ridiculous cases are when the court orders the man to pay child support for kids who aren't even his own.

[Name removed]

184. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Guaranteed]

104. Well, that's a different issue.

I'm not even touching it. :)

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

124. It's a typical male ploy to commingle the rights of the child with a

woman's rights over her body...it does NOT make it a valid nor equivocal argument. It isn't....one involves a woman making a medical decision, the other involves impinging on one person for the greater good of the other person who is alive, breathing outside the mother and is vulnerable and unable to care for themselves...sometimes justice isn't fair.

[Guaranteed]

137. Yes, that's what males do. Excellent.

What do females do? Do they always stop and ask for directions? Do they cry too much?

How about men, again? Are they inherently evil, hell-bent on ruling the world and keeping women down? Do they pick their noses in public? Masturbate all the time?

Now back to women- are they better parents than men? Do they entice men too much with their sexy clothes?

Let's do everything we can to turn this into a male vs. female issue, NSMA. Come on, give me some more. We're making real progress, here.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

140. Completely illogical response and you are in denial

I pointed out a VALID deliberate attempt on the part of males to intentionally CLOUD the issue of women's rights with the rights of the child and you responded with hyperbole.

Think I am full of shit on this one? Google the words "men's rights" and "father's rights" and see if I am not justified in this assertion on each and every one of those sites that will pop up.

BTW..who is complaining about child support versus a woman's reproductive rights on this thread?

Do you have a problem with the obvious?

I rest my case.

[Guaranteed]

144. You're just saying what males typically do.

IT'S WHAT MALES DO!!

THAT is what MALES...DO. RIGHT?

I'm just asking what else it is that males do! And females. What do they do?

Give me more!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

145. No I said typical male ploy...not that it is typical of all males

just that one only sees MALES making that argument NOT females...do you often read things that aren't there? Nevermind..I know the answer to that one.

[Guaranteed]

150. I see...so it's not a TYPICAL male ploy...

It's a typical MALE ploy...sorry, I just put the derogatory emphasis in the wrong place.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

164. ok...btw...I DON'T tend to make broad generalizations of that sort

and if I did I would gladly admit it and cease to do so..I deplore all forms of prejudice...(is this the part where I say, "some of my best friends are male?)

[merh]

119. Then you be sure that you create a form of birth control that

a man can take that is 100% effective. Or, have a vasectomy.
For the poster that confused child support with reproductive rights you do have reproductive rights. Go get fixed so that every time you have sex you don't run the chance, that is your control, that is your reproductive right!

[Yupster]

167. Of course getting fixed

is an option for both sexes.

I undertand you feel that men should get fixed if they don't want to end up being dads as a consequence. The question is do you feel the same way about females?

Should women get fixed if they don't want unplanned pregnancies, or suffer the consequences of being an unwilling mom?

Usually people only feel this should apply to men.

[merh]

177. I know woman that have.

I also know of woman who have asked their physican to tie their tubes after the delivery of their child and the doctor has refused, telling them they they may change their minds later.

I also know that a good many doctors will not interfere with a woman's reproductive system, advising them that it is or could be premature and they may want children later.

And believe it are not I know women whose family history suggests that it is better for them to have their ovaries removed (to prevent cancer) and they cannot find a physician to perform the procedure. It is considered elective and many doctors refuse to perform it while the woman is "of child bearing years".

It is much easier for a man, the odds of successful reversal are in the man's favor and my post was in response to a misguided post equating parental rights to reproductive rights.

[Cheswick2.0]

186. females aren't the ones whining about not having control

got logic?

[Jmeyers130]

32. while i agree...

That it must have been a truly terrible experience for you, Matcom, do not forget that most of the people here at DU support your right, and the right of every woman.

All of those protestors are nothing more than empty, bitter bible-thumpers who think they are doing the work of some omnipotent being in the sky, who need a friggin hobby and should let those who have a very difficult decision make it in peace, without people screaming in their faces.

These protestors are scum because of their closed minds and unwillingness to accept reality. Roe v. Wade is still in full effect, which means that all women in the country have the right to choose. It's the law of the land, and it's something they need to accept. Americans are free to choose. Not such a terrible thing, now is it?

While these bastards are in need of a good ass-stomping, just be careful who you chastise. I would never tear you down for making the choice you did. It was your choice, and I can accept that, most of us here at DU can accept that and we support you.

[3 Cents and Change]

38. Scary.

"It's the law of the land, and it's something they need to accept."

If I were to say "Bush is the president of the land, and it's something you need to accept." you would call me insane.

As I said in another thread, there are MANY arguments in favor of abortion. However, if you think saying it's the law now so accept it, you are arguing that slavery should never have been abolished and women shouldn't be allowed to vote. Think about what you are saying.

[Jmeyers130]

55. point...

You've got a point...

Though that is a righteously legal issue. It was settled in the Supreme Court and has been upheld by it ever since.

As far as the chimp-in-chief, we all know what bullshit that was...

[merh]

126. Let's try to make this as simple as possible.

Men have reproductive rights - it is called getting a vascetomy.
Men can chose to do with their body as they like, snip it or zip it.
If men do not want to run the chance of having sex with unnamed woman and then being strapped with child support for some child for 18 years (21 in some states so watch it kiddo, you will be working for a while longer than you feared) then you can go get fixed.

Funny thing, vascetomies are much more effective than most forms of birth control available to a woman and are reversable. You can chose to do this and when you want to impregnate someone, get unfixed. Yes, I know that some times they don't "take" but, if a man wants to be responsible about his reproductive rights he should go to the doctor periodically to be sure the little guys haven't found a way to get around the procedure, if you catch my drift.

Pro-choice fellas - your choice, your body. Do as you like I WILL NOT ENCOURAGE LAWS TO FORCE IT, why should you try to do it to woman?

[Yupster]

168. I agree mehr

"Men have reproductive rights. It's called getting a vascetctomy. Men can choose to do with their body as they like, zip it or snip it."

Of course the same is true for women.

'Women have reproductive rights. It's called getting your tubes tied. Women can choose to do with their body as they like, zip it or snip it.'

Why is one reasonable and the other not?

[merh]

174. Because believe it or not, a vasectomy is not an intrusive procedure.

I realize that men consider it intrusive, but medically speaking it is not as invasive as a tubal ligation. Local anesthetic is all that is required to have the snipping and it is can be done in a doctor's office. In one day and snip snip. The procedure is over. Whereas a tubal ligation is an intrusive procedure, much more invasive than the option available to the men.
Tubal ligation is done in the hospital or outpatient surgical clinic while the patient is under anesthesia. Tubal ligation is considered a permanent method of birth control. Surgery to reverse a tubal ligation is not always effective and reversals are both difficult and expensive.

Both procedures are reversible, but the success rate for the procedures is woman 70% and men 85% to 97%.

So, yes, men and woman can exercise their reproductive right by being sterilized.

[T Town Jake]

185. "Because believe it or not, a vasectomy is not an intrusive procedure."

LOL...Really? Gotta disagree with you on that one...

[matcom]

39. thank you. i do not want your support though

i want people to stop trivializing it like they have been through it ON BOTH SIDES

it is legal. THANK GAWD!!

but those that have NOT had to make the choice do not understand. i THANK every person in the world who keeps this right legal but its fucked up. IT IS SO FUCKED UP!

i know that doesn't make sense but it is all i have right now

[3 Cents and Change]

33. I never went through it...

...because I made the choice to not get into a situation where the decision on whether to have an abortion would come up. Just because somebody never ended up pregnant because they made the right choices doesn't mean they aren't allowed to have an opinion on the subject.

However, I did offer to adopt my brother-in-laws child when he was in high school. We offered to pay for the pregnancy and all expenses even though we didn't plan to have kids for another five years. Unfortunatley, the mother of his child and him decided the humiliation would be too much.

If you think that women who have abortions are the only people negatively impacted by it, you are being extremely closed minded.

[lastliberalintexas]

94. Are you kidding me?

"because I made the choice to not get into a situation where the decision on whether to have an abortion would come up."

Have you never met someone who became pregnant while using contraception (ie, the pill)? If not, let me introduce you to lastliberalintexas. :hi:

A little presumptuous and holier than thou, doncha think?

So your brother in law and his girlfriend agreed that *their* pregnancy should be terminated, and you objected? Sorry, you had no right to ask a woman to continue a pregnancy just so you could adopt her child. Their decision to terminate the pregnancy was not a negative impact on you, no matter what you'd like to imply.

If you think that people who aren't involved in the conception process should be involved in any way in the deicision to terminate or not, you are being extremely self-centered.


Want children? Have one of your own. Can't? Then adopt- there are already plenty of children BEGGING to be adopted in this country. Against abortion? Then don't have one. Pretty damn simple to me.

[3 Cents and Change]

109. Get one thing straight.

"So your brother in law and his girlfriend agreed that *their* pregnancy should be terminated, and you objected?"

We offered to adopt the child I didn't tell him to have it and raise it himself. The kid would be starving right now if he did that. Sorry, but I'm not going to feel bad about that regardless of your messed up priorities.



Regarding choices, sorry if it sounded holier than thou, it's just the truth. Me and my wife didn't have sex until we were married. That was our choice but it wasn't 'holier than thou', it was responsible. Sorry if that offends you. You can decide that choice isn't for you but don't get pissy at people who choose that way of life.

[lastliberalintexas]

122. So, does it make you feel better

to know that I was married- and had been for several years- when I got knocked up? Am I morally acceptable to you now? :eyes:

That I was married didn't change the fact that we'd never planned on having children and had taken steps to prevent it. Best laid plans and all that.


And you entirely missed the point. You do not have the right to force a woman to continue her pregnancy- or not. For you to think that it would be ok simply because you and your wife would have raised the child shows me that you have absolutely no concept of what a pregnancy does to a woman's body. If they wanted to terminate THEIR pregnancy, you had no right to object. They have the right to live their own lives, you go live yours.

I haven't objected to you wanting to adopt a child- that's an admirable goal. But you don't exactly have to force a woman to continue a pregnancy that she doesn't want to accomplish that goal.

[3 Cents and Change]

129. No, you are missing the point.

I never attempted to force anybody to do anything. This was an offer me and my wife made to save this child, our niece or nephew.

"Am I morally acceptable to you now?"

When did I say you weren't? Why do you give a shit what I think of you? I was talking about a choice me and my wife made and you have warped it into a condemnation of somebody we don't even know.

"If they wanted to terminate THEIR pregnancy, you had no right to object."

Guess what? We didn't object. We offered to adopt the child. When the hell did family members lose the right to offer to help out other family members in tough situations? For that matter, when did anybody lose the right to make an offer of help?

"They have the right to live their own lives, you go live yours."

It's extremely ironic that you say this in a post in which you comdemn me and my wife for offering to raise the child as an alternative to an abortion.




If you want to think I'm an evil person for offering to raise a child as an alternative to an abortion, you are more than welcome to. I don't know you, you don't know me. However, if a family member is ever in a bind like that again, I'm going to make the same offer because I love my family.

Sorry if that sickens you.

[lastliberalintexas]

136. I don't think you're evil

But your posts have certainly been far more judgmental than you are willing to admit.


And the fact that you still don't see how your comment about negative impact on people other than the pregnant woman will be taken is rather telling. Instead of worrying about them after what was THE MOST difficult, conflicted, hellish and impossible decision of their obviously young lives, you are focused on how their decision affected YOU.

Glad to know that you were really "there" for them. :eyes:

[3 Cents and Change]

152. Actually...

...I'm focused on how the decision impacted the child but I didn't think anybody would care about that here so I tried to put it in other terms.

[3 Cents and Change]

153. BTW,

cut the smug, "I'm glad you were 'there' for them" bull shit. Is it your opinion that somebody who is offering to adopt a child is only doing it for themselves?

Is adopting a child that would have been flushed as a fetus a bad thing?

We gave her a choice. It was her decision to choose another choice. Now seriously, what's wrong with that?

[Az]

35. Its unfortunately necissary

Because the Vatican decided that America supporting the right to choose posed too much of a social force they had to put pressure on our society to alter its path. Due to this the abortion issue has become political. This is a political board. While I share your distaste with having to discuss this issue it must be discussed. This very issue has been responsible for reshaping our nation. To ignore it is to lose our way.

[ContinentalOp]

42. Interesting how this shit suddenly comes out before the election.

Divide and conquer. The moles and disruptors are working overtime.

[MuseRider]

44. Thanks matcom

been there. That is why I usually do not go into those threads. It does hurt, even 32 years later. (no clinic so no mobs to navigate but still....)

[matcom]

46. thanks Muse. I will NEVER forget the Mob

i have nightmares sometimes

i can't get them out of my head

i don't know how people can HATE so much. i know that sounds wierd but its how i feel

like it wasn't hard enough......

every fucking thread brings it right back.

oh fuck

FUCK THEM ALL

[Az]

50. So do we let them win

Stand down. Get off the line. Let them have their way.



ps I have been there too. We can never stop standing on that line.

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Az]

53. Ya know

You can disagree with people without having to use that tactic.

[Tosca]

58. Oh, yes the high moral ground...

Anyone who makes comments that are so callous deserves to be ridiculed and attacked in the same manner. Your mileage may vary.

[Bunny]

57. Cheswick is not a guy.

And furthermore, she is entitled to her opinion. As are you, no matter how misguided it may be.

[Tosca]

61. Cheswick is a woman?

Geeziz, how creepy is that. And yes, I agree, she's entitled to her opinion no matter how misguided it is.

[Bunny]

63. What exactly is creepy about Cheswick being a woman?

This should be good...

[Tosca]

67. Well let me ask you...

Is it funny to you that he/she jokes about getting an abortion so one is able to look good in one's bikini? How much of a laugh do you get out of such statements?

Big belly laugh?

Chuckle?

Snicker?

What?

[Bunny]

72. If you'd been on the boards long enough,

you would realize that Cheswick is using satire, or irony. Perhaps you should read up a little more on these things before you make an assumption. Or use the search feature and read some of her posts. It will give you a better look at the big picture.

[Name removed]

92. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[thebigidea]

105. as opposed to the stark brilliance of your personal insults, I guess

Make way for the Don Rickles of DU, eh?

[noiretextatique]

95. it's called SARCASM

no doubt in response to a poster (who shall remain nameless) who Often posts In abortion threads his Faux and misogynistic non-arguments. no one on the "bikini squad" thinks very highly of this nameless poster. no doubt Cheswick was simply repeating one of his offensive, misogynisitic non-sequiturs.

[noiretextatique]

87. Cheswick has been the front lines of this issue

in REAL LIFE, unlike most here. she is hardly "misguided."

[diamond14]

108. VERY creepy....

shows a total lack of compassion for other women....the old "I'm better and holier than they are"...yet fails to comprehend that

1. Pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion...

2. Medical decisions should be ONLY between a women, her family, her doctor and her God..NOT regulated and ordered by her government...

3. Some women ask for abortions because of medical issues (and YOU are more fortunate than others, if you are physically healthy), mental issues (and YOU are more fortunate than others, if you are mentally healthy), financial issues (and IF you really cared, why aren't YOU paying for birthing and raising those 'saved' babies YOURSELF???...show that YOU really do care, rather than playing TALIBAN on OTHER WOMEN, those less fortunate than YOU)....


The Bible tells a story of Jesus saving Mary Magdalene...Jesus simply said: "He who is without sin, shall cast the first stone"...and everybody realized that they were also sinners, and left...when Jesus looked up, the torturers were ALL GONE...

[noiretextatique]

116. amen1234...the poster took it wrong

cheswick was being sarcastic...she is solidly pro-choice. very solidly.
she is not here to defend herself, so as her ally on this issue, i feel the need to defend her in her absence.

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

133. How did you get THAT out of Noiretblu's post?

Cheswick is a big girl - I'm pretty sure she did not SEND noiretblu to defend her. Jesus Cheny Christ!

[Forkboy]

134. ...sounds like WH tactics to me...

No,WH tactics would be smearing someone who is not around to defend themselves...like what YOU'RE doing.

Noiretblu is defending someone who can't defend themselves at the moment...something a LIBERAL does.

[Guaranteed]

71. I have a lot of respect for Cheswick.

SHE is a thoughtful and intelligent poster, who- oddly enough- never resorts to name calling.

[Runcible Spoon]

85. I think Cheswick was being sarcastic

in response to another poster's disingenuity

[Tosca]

101. Oh well,

I see I've riled up the Dice Clay Cheswick fan club, I'll exit now.

[noiretextatique]

111. good idea

since you don't know :wtf: you are talking about :hi:

[Forkboy]

135. Thank God for small miracles

c'ya,wouldn't want to be ya.

[Name removed]

143. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bunny]

149. Probably a good idea.

You know how the Dice Clay Cheswick fan club can be when they get riled up. :eyes: oh, and, :boring:

[Kipepeo]

90. If you are talking about this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1888754

I think it is all sarcasm about people qualifying their pro-choice political position with their pro-life personal position.

I didn't get it either at first, until she posted things that were so over-the-top that I realized she was mocking those who *would* moralize and attempt to make women feel guilty for choosing abortion.

[Name removed]

118. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Warren]

66. You do have a point

and I so know what you mean, despite your overuse of caplocks.

Seems like this board gets into these snake-biting-its-tail discussions between more sensational breaking news sometimes.

Though I don't read those threads, for me, their stagnating presence triggers an awareness that the ebb and flow of politics and world events is often about due to drop a big one on us.

[matcom]

96. THANK YOU ALL FOR TURNING THIS INTO ANOTHER FLAMEFEST

NOT that i didn't expect it BUT is there NOTHING to my post that is based on MERIT??

do you even READ what was behind this?

*sigh*

thanks all. REALLY appreciate it :eyes:

this was NOT easy people.

thanks

[Az]

107. Yes

It is whithering dealing with the rhetoric of the enemy. It is sickening. The issue courses through our society. It churns emotions no matter which side you are on. We all wish this issue was not necissary. In fact the passage of Roe V Wade should have been the end of it. Its established law. But there are those that are not going to let us simply let it go. This is our burden. We must bear it or no one else will.

[Runcible Spoon]

112. Sorry Matcom

it is extremely painful and difficult. And yes, I have had to wade through those crowds, though the rabid masses had no idea if I was going in for an abortion or a fucking pap smear. The best thing you can do, which I suspect you are already doing, is keep fighting (legally) and love and support your girl. Because you and she are all that matters, not a crowd full of self-righteous hyprocrites and hate mongers.

[Amaya]

114. I read it

and Thank you, Matt :hug:

Ignore that other shit.

[noiretextatique]

120. it brought back memories of my own experience

no crowds of lunatics screaming at me, but it was a difficult time nevertheless.

[diamond14]

139. American Taliban out in full force...IMO, you post was well thought

out and poignantly written...thanks...I appreciate it, and feel the same...

what saddens me greatly is that too many enjoy these vicious TALIBAN, attacking the most vulnerable women in our society....and so few are willing to STAND UP against the American Taliban and STOP THEM...

like the KKK, it will take much more effort to stop these American Taliban...hiding behind their 'sarcasms' and 'little remarks', they are nothing more than nazis...preying on vulnerable women, least able to defend themselves...

[Demonaut]

117. If a post starts with FUCKING or SHIT in the first sentence

Its gotta be matcom, lol you're in a rut.

[maveric]

125. My ex was a medical courier and picked up specimens at an OB-GYN

here in San Diego. Everyday this group of shit-for-brains fudies picketed his office stopping people from entering, pushing placards with dead fetuses in your face spitting on and cursing all those who entered.
This doctor also delivered thousands of babies and is a respectable OB-GYN in the area.
She had to go there every day and was harrassed on a regular basis, called an enabler to murder, blah, blah, blah.
What fucking morons!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

141. Let's end the issue by putting it to a national vote.

Only rules are that votes may only be cast by those capable of becoming pregnant.

I'd guess it would be about 70% pro-choice.

[Mr. Blonde]

146. I've been thinking about this argument

that no males should have an opinion on this issue. By this logic I should not have an opinion about gay marriage because I'm not gay. I shouldn't have an opinion about tax reform because I'm in college and don't pay taxes. I shouldn't have an opinion about a potential draft because I will most likely be in school until after the debacle in Iraq is over. I'm not old so I shouldn't have an opinion about Social Security.

If at some point my SO and I have a "surprise" hopefully I would be able to provide some insight to how I feel about it. But I don't know how much she would appreciate her husband saying "yeah I don't really care too much about that do what you want."

[Bunny]

148. Wrong.

Neither gays, nor taxes, nor Social Security have the potential to cause you serious medical issues or even death. Pregnancy does.

Now your point on the draft is well taken. Being in school will not save you from Iraq, my friend, and you would be right to begin protesting it as soon as possible. Because if the draft is reinstated, there are no deferments. Food for thought.

[Mr. Blonde]

154. Then one more

I have insurance so I shouldn't care about insurance reform.

I'm not calling for the end of abortion, just the end of "you have a dick and you are one for not being absolutely pro choice". I would never expect anyone to continue with a pregnancy that would endanger their life. I realize there are risks with carrying a pregnancy to term, but a lot of things involve danger.
The thing that bothers me about the no opinions from male pov is that it seems as if it says that even a present and caring SO should not be able to voice his opinion. It could very well affect both parties emotionally later in life.

[Bunny]

157. Men can certainly express their opinion.

They just don't have the final vote. This seems to be very difficult for some men to accept. (I'm not specifically referring to you, as I do not know your opinion in this instance).

[Mr. Blonde]

161. I don't think in most situations

involving a surprise pregnancy I would be in favor of abortion. At least later in life (currently not an issue). If i were married to someone and she turned up pregnant I don't know that I would want to abort. Certainly if she was dead set against it, I think I would honor her wishes and support her decision full heartedly. After all my understanding of marriage is that it is supposed to be about give and take, and certainly pregnancy is a time for her to take and not give an inch.

You are right that the final decision is hers, I just don't agree with the men shouldn't have any input stance.

[Bunny]

163. "...I don't know that I would want to abort."

Well, good thing you won't ever have to abort.

"...and certainly pregnancy is a time for her to take and not give an inch."

Well, that sums things up well enough for me to get a better picture of your thinking. Thanks for clarifying that...

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

160. Out of context.

The vote I'm (somewhat ironically, since it will never happen) proposing isn't about men's opinions. It has nothing to do with you stating your opinion to your SO. It does have to do with you having veto power over her choice.

BTW I'm a man.

[Mr. Blonde]

162. I know that it doesn't have a lot

to do with the vote, but the opinion it seems to stem from about men not being right to voice their opinion about abortion.

I do think that even with the full population voting abortion would remain legal. If you look at how many dead beat dads there are in this country it seems that they wish there was an abortion since they don't want much to do with teh pregnancy's outcome.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

155. False argument.

OK. Make it a vote on whether testicular cancer should be covered under medicare.

Besides the "rules" for the vote doesn't bar you from having an opinion.

Uh, BTW, did you get to vote whether to send troops to Iraq? Think you'll get to vote on the draft? How about Social Security? Or, taxes? Nobody asked me if I wanted to pay taxes for "National Defense".

[Mr. Blonde]

156. I wasn't talking about this

hypothetical vote, I was talking specifically about the different sides of an issue.

[bloom]

158. Everybody has their story

That's why I'm pro-choice.

[KoKo]

159. Yeah...this is all tough...hard questions. n/t

[LynneSin]

169. If only more men had your attitude

:loveya:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

175. I got your back Matcom!!!

Well said, sir!

[rasputin1952]

176. Access to RU-486 would put this issue to rest...

once and for all.

Then we could all get a nice nights sleep...:)

[Katarina]

183. Thank you Matcom

I've kept quiet on this subject until now...thanks for your words.

[Moderator]

187. Locking.

Productive discussion seems to be at an end here.