Politics is becoming a big circle jerk....Eloriel is correct.

[TheBigGuy]

Eloriel has parented a good thread a connection between electronic voting machines and the California recall, and how these machines will lead to stolen elections.

Frankly, it does mean that democracy is pretty much over here in the USA, as we will be seeing rigged elections fairly regularly. I dont think it will affect the Democratic primarys, but they will be reduced to a big political ciricle jerk, as the main event is most likely going to be stolen by the GOP via judicious tactical vote-rigging via manipulation of computerized returns.

It appears this has already happened in Georgia with the governors race.

I have to say, since this appearst to be coming to pass, it is sort of pointless to even be concerned about politics....politics will be reduced to a staged spectacle like WWF wrestling...with its "bad guys" & "heros" & "stars"....and the media will be complicit in this charade.

Personally, the voting day I find an electronic voting machines in my precinct polling will be the last day I vote, in any election...that day will mark my farewell to politics.

[wryter2000]

1. Absentee

I urge everyone to vote absentee. They can't mail you a machine. They'll have to use paper ballots.

[TheBigGuy]

3. sort of a drop in the bucket....

.....I would think abesentee ballots would become sort of a form of symbolic protest as the bulk of the votes would be going through the machines..and would be then manipulated.

The amount of "untampered" absentee votes would probably be irrelevant to the ultimate outcome.

[TheBigGuy]

2. Since I referenced the thread....

heres a link to it. Pretty persuasive that the fix is in:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=180842&mesg_id=180842

[barbaraann]

4. I'm not giving up.

Remember, we VASTLY outnumber them--visualize that drawing of the numerous tiny fish in the shape of a big fish eating a genuinely large fish. If we work together we can win.

[TheBigGuy]

6. nice slogans, but a waste of time.

Frankly, since the media isnt pickinig up on this, this electronic vote tampering thing will sort of move into folk-wisdom....no election will be above suspicion.

And there is not much you can do about it except protest, and the media will ignore or dismiss the protests and protestors.

Sort of like in that movie Bob Roberts. Life will start to imitate art.

Politics is over!

[imhotep]

5. another aspect

is that everything is so fucked up it would take 50 years of opposition to even begin to "fix" anything. Maybe speeding up the collapse is a quicker way to see real progress.

[TheBigGuy]

7. Voltaire said it best...

...in "Candide".

"We must tend our own gardens".

Which means , for me, the Lounge in DU will be more important and relevant than the disucssion in GD or "Campaigns".

[Clete]

8. In California one can send in an absentee ballot

which is on paper and hand counted. This circumvents the ballot machines. How many other states can do this? I don't know.

[TheBigGuy]

11. thats merley symbolic protest.

...to cast a vote this way is just symbolism as these votes wont add up to much.

I guess if people are into protesting things all the time and symbolism is a big deal to them, then, yeah, go for it. But don't expect it to count much.

[dsc]

12. No it isn't

Several states vote completely by absentee ballot and other vote heavily by them. Those states count the absentee ballots immediately.

[NYC]

13. In New York, you have to be absent

to cast an absentee ballot.

[Cocoa]

9. I've suspected all along

that PART of the voting machine issue is an attempt by the right wing to cast a cloud over our democracy. Unbridled cynicism works in their favor.

I see it as part of a larger campaign that includes over-the-top hatemongering like for example Ann Coulter and the whole Clinton-hating crowd, and a lot of conspiracy theories I'd consider part of it as well. A sense that "they're all in it together". It all adds up to people feeling there's nothing they can do.

I'm not saying voting machines are not an issue. I'm saying that PART of the voting machine issue, the part that causes people to lose their heads, smells funny to me.

[TheBigGuy]

10. why does it smell funny?

...that you can't be certain your vote will be counted, that it will likely be manipulated to throw key "must-win" elections? Does that smell funny?

Frankly, if you want to coninue to play a suckers game go ahead. I won't.

[Cocoa]

14. voting is not a sucker's game

It's the ultimate weapon against the squatters running our country.

One of their biggest weapons is the message that they can't be stopped. One of my criteria for who I'm voting for is who can overcome that message the best. I haven't decided who that is yet.

[TheBigGuy]

17. Read my lips

Your vote is pointeless if its being manipulated

By going to vote using these electronic machines you are just "going through the motions". You can't have a reasonable certainity that your vote will be counted...particularly in major elections. Maybe even in minor ones.

Others have posted here on how easy it is to manipulate votes and have made a good case that one key election, at least, has been swung the GOP way due to manipulation of electronic voting machines.

So why bother with this charade?

Sorry, I've got better things to do with my time.

[ProudGerman]

15. So you'll just stand on the field?

You can't get out of the game....unless you leave the country and take everyone who matters with you. Whether you want to play or not, you're still in the game.

Plus if you quit, you'll only encourage others to quit. You'll also let the others who don't want to quit down big time. So you are not just "accepting reality" on your own terms, you are helping to force that reality on others who don't want it.

Shurking your responsibilities in other words.

[TheBigGuy]

18. I sure has hell can....

Like the rest of the folks who don't vote I have more productive things to do that play a fixed game...which is what voting is gong to become with these new voting machines.

I'm beginning to see the wisdom of the nonvoters.

[Lauren2882]

20. even leaving the country is ultimately ineffective

You can't get out of the game....unless you leave the country and take everyone who matters with you. Whether you want to play or not, you're still in the
game.

I'm responding to this because I have heard some liberals sersiously ponder aloud this course of action and it makes me mad every time, because the actions of the United States will affect you no matter where you live. Like it or not, the U.S. is at present the only remaining superpower, and I think that anyone who has been given or acquired citizenship of this country ought to use it.

[fishnfla]

16. Is it possible to have a 2 man circle jerk?

i mean isnt that more like a face to face jack off?

[Lauren2882]

19. Your argument is internally consistent if you reject absentee voting

Since you dismiss absentee voting as merely a "drop in the bucket," it doesn't make sense to me how you EVER justified voting, even under the old (possibly) more accountable system. You only ever get one vote, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it.

[OldCurmudgeon]

21. it's not "drop in a bucket" that's the problem, really...

Here's how they could make it work:

• N absentee ballots arrive.
  
• Adjust electronic vote totals so that Rethug wins by N+1 in the electronic votes.
  
• Count the absentee ballots. Suprise! Rethug wins!
  

That said, I think it's much too soon to dispair, but certainly not too soon to fight for verifiable clean elections.

And remember what elections are a "nicer alternative" to.

[Lauren2882]

22. But if more than 1/2 of people voted by absentee....

then it would be impossible to implement fraud in that way. To illustrate, lets say a given ward has 8,000 voters that turn out to vote total. 4,001 vote by absentee, all for the Democrat (which is of course highly unlikely anyway). Even if the election officials changed every one of the other 3,999 votes to Republican, there would be no way for the Republican to "win" the election.

The point is, the more people vote by absentee, the harder it is to implement fraud. That being said, I don't think we're at the point where this needs to be our strategy. It makes more sense, and is not more difficult (both are difficult) to fight for fair elections. Besides, I personally LIKE going to the polls on Election Day.... I wouldn't want to live in a state like Oregon where everyone votes by mail.