Talking point - Stories You May Not Have Read About Howard Dean

[althecat]

Apologies if this has already been posted. I just received it via Sam Smith's prorev.com UNDERNEWS mailing list (which is one of the best I might add). And I thought it rather interesting... the source as it says is NYC Indymedia...

STORIES YOU MAY NOT HAVE READ ABOUT HOWARD DEAN



COMMON DREAMS - When it came to Israel and Palestine - the former
Vermont governor declared that, while the United States should become
more engaged, he did not have any fundamental objections with President
George W. Bush's policies. Dean called for an end to Palestinian
violence against Israeli civilians, but he did not call for a cessation
of Israeli violence against Palestinian civilians. Similarly, there was
no call for an end of the Israeli occupation, for Israeli compliance
with UN Security Council resolutions, or a withdrawal from Israel's
illegal settlements in the occupied territories or even a freeze on the
construction of new settlements. When asked by the Jewish newspaper
Forward late last year as to whether he supported APN's perspective,
Governor Dean replied 'No, my view is closer to AIPAC's view.'"

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0226-04.htm

CHARLES KNIGHT, COMMON DREAMS, APRIL 2003 - In effect this supposedly
'anti-war' Democrat has announced his support for a policy in which
Washington will decide which countries are allowed to have nuclear
weapons and will reserve for itself the right to forcefully disarm those
who do not voluntarily disarm by U.S. dictate. In this crucial regard
Dean's position is in close accordance with the Bush doctrine of
coercive disarmament and preventive war.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0414-09.htm

KATHERINE STAPP, COMMON DREAMS, JUNE 10, 2003 - Former Vermont governor
Howard Dean has sided most closely with the Bush administration,
endorsing the National Governors Association policy, which opposed the
Kyoto Protocol unless it included mandatory emissions cuts for
developing countries. The policy recommended that the United States "not
sign or ratify any agreement that would result in serious harm to the
U.S. economy. "Of the Democrats now running, only Ohio Congressman
Dennis Kucinich has stated, "the U.S. must ratify the Kyoto Protocol.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0610-01.htm

MARIJUANA POLICY PROJECT - Vermont Gov. Howard Dean killed a medical
marijuana bill that was on the verge of passage in 2002, ignoring pleas
from the medical community, AIDS patient groups, and others.

http://www.commondreams.org/news2003/0603-08.htm

MICHAEL COLBY, COUNTERPUNCH - As the son of a wealthy Long Island
family (his father was a prominent Wall Street insider), Dean's used to
having his golden path well greased. After dutifully attending Yale and
then medical school, Dean looked for a state to launch both a private
medical practice and a political career. He chose Vermont as much for
its beauty as its lenient mood toward carpet bagging politicians, thus
joining Brooklynite Bernie Sanders as a born again Vermonter.

JOHN DILLON, TIMES ARGUS - A leading environmentalist was asked to leave
Gov. Howard Dean's council of environmental advisers after she
criticized the governor's short-lived proposal for a coal-fired power
plant in Vermont. Elizabeth Courtney, executive director of the Vermont
Natural Resources Council, was one of 20 members of the governor's
environmental council, which meets about once every three months with
the governor. But after Courtney wrote a newspaper opinion piece
faulting Dean for his brief advocacy of a coal plant, she learned she
was no longer welcome on the council. David Rocchio, the governor's
legal counsel, wrote her late last month to say she will be replaced on
the council by VNRC's board chairman. The move came after she had
written the governor on energy issues and showed his staff her draft
newspaper piece, Courtney said.

http://timesargus.nybor.com/Archive/Articles/Article/23996

NYC INDYMEDIA
http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63409&group=webcast

[newsguyatl]

1. is that

all you got?


c'mon, i hope they're not paying you for that!

[bread_and_roses]

2. It looks like enough

to me.

[liberalhistorian]

5. I am really beginning to have serious doubts about Dean,

and this definitely adds fuel to the fire. I'm beginning to believe that he is not at all what he claims to be, and I don't like that.

[Cha]

11. Why don't you check it out for yourself instead of relying on

"slanted pieces"? I believe in Dean and am not going to lose faith in him just because of the deluge of Dean bashers on DU.

[DemBones DemBones]

44. "I believe in Dean -- don't bother me with any facts!"

Because they're showing some evidence that your hero has clay feet, Common Dreams is now doing "slanted pieces"? How is this different from people voting for Bush* because they "know he is a good Christian"?

[Tinoire]

47. The saddest thing is that

while REFUSING to debate any points or issues, Dean supporters keep crying about how persecuted and misunderstood they are. So misunderstood that they can't express themselves and can only point to Dean's expertly marketed Campaign web-site to speak for them.

This is now war. My country is on the brink of total collapse thanks to the Republicans and to the DLC. I will fight to my last, dying breath to denounce Dean and his DLC candidacy now. Anyone falling for the Dean/CLF histrionics of "we hate each other NOW, SUDDENLY" is not digging deep enough. They're letting their anger at Bush cloud their better judgement. Understandable- whicjh is precisely why Dean is currently doing so well- but not sustainable.

[Changenow]

50. Dean’s anger seems real.

Maybe it is a put on, time will tell, there are still six months until the primary.

My singular mission is to find a candidate who can beat Chimp, the particulars just don’t matter. In a perfect world the candidate I would support would also hold my views, but that is a luxury that the country can’t afford.

[Tinoire]

54. Cool / But how long do you think a campaign can run on anger?

You just go! And keep on supporting Dean if you want. I have NO problems with that as long as you do it with your eyes open.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

62. From the horse's mouth:

The basic framework for peace between the Israelis and Palestinians is a two state solution - a Jewish state of Israel living side by side in peace and security with an independent, demilitarized Palestinian state. The best approach to achieving lasting peace is a comprehensive one, providing for fully normalized relations, peace, and security as part of an overall negotiated settlement between Israel and the Arab states.

To get there, the Palestinian Authority will have to fight terrorism and violence on a consistent basis to create the conditions necessary for a viable peace process. The Israeli government will have to work to improve the living conditions of the Palestinian people and ultimately will have to remove a number of existing settlements. These issues and others will all be elements of a final agreement negotiated by the parties.

Through it all, the United States will maintain its historic special relationship with the state of Israel, providing a guarantee of its long-term defense and security. And the United States will have to take responsibility with its international partners for helping the Palestinians establish a middle-class democratic society in which women fully participate in economic and political decision-making. The international community must support these economic reconstruction efforts which are essential to the long-term success of any agreement between the parties. - Howard Dean

[Proletariat]

3. Please!

Anyone who perhaps isn't obssessed with Dean is a GOP op? Gimme a break :eyes:

[newsguyatl]

6. i wasn't

insinuating he was a GOP op, ole bright one...


but you're just plain naive if you don't know that other campaigns have people laboring right now, trying to get the dirt on dean... dean, right now at least, is the bull's eye, and other campaigns have their messengers out right now looking for darts...

[blm]

22. So, they left Dean alone for months

and didn't bother reciprocating when he alone was doing all the attacking - what were you doing then, did you cheer those attacks? Did you want Dean supporters heckling Kerry and calling him names like "Bushlite"...did you expect it to last forever?

[Tinoire]

48. You know why I can't support Kerry now but your point is so valid

I will support Kerry before I support a candidate whose entire campaign is based on

1. Exploiting people's anger into a vote hoping that they won't notice how weak he is on the issues

2. Attacking other Dem candidates

3. Slick marketing


No, sorry Dean supporters, many who are DU friends of mine, but this is now war. This is waaaay too important to our country and to the Democratic Party! Debates welcome but cheer-leading "I-prefer-to-bury-my-head-in-the-sand" no longer welcomed. The Republicans will yank your head out of that sand so quickly you won't even hear it snap. If you want Dean, then start debating on the ISSUES. Anything less and our Party and the future of America are doomed.

[bearfartinthewoods]

57. Exploiting people's anger ..so true

isn't that just a step away from what bush has been doing by exploiting people's fears to hid the fact that he's an empty suit?

excuse me but 'i'm mad as hell' isn't sufficent to win my support...

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

61. "I'm mad as hell," is his entire campaign.

As a matter of fact if you go to his webpage, all it says is:

"I'm mad as hell!"

Exit site

When asked questions at the various Dem forums, Dean always restricts his answers to 4 words: "I'm mad as hell."

When are people gonna catch on to this guy?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

4. One of your quotes

MICHAEL COLBY, COUNTERPUNCH - As the son of a wealthy Long Island
family (his father was a prominent Wall Street insider), Dean's used to
having his golden path well greased. After dutifully attending Yale and
then medical school, Dean looked for a state to launch both a private
medical practice and a political career. He chose Vermont as much for
its beauty as its lenient mood toward carpet bagging politicians, thus
joining Brooklynite Bernie Sanders as a born again Vermonter.


Um, yeah, you are chosing objective and clearly unbiased articles. Why don't you just say, "hey, I don't like Dean so none of you should" and get on with your life.

[Eloriel]

7. I have to agree with Pavlov's here, Scoop

These all look like hit pieces. Slanted hit pieces. I'm disappointed in you.

For example, you apparently don't know his policy on medical marijuana. I'm not even going to waste my time posting it. Like everything else he does, everything that I've seen anyway, it's a cogent, coherent, pragmatic approach entirely consistent with compassion, MEDICINE and good sense.

Very disappointing. I think there are things that can be criticized about Dean -- or any other candidate -- but I do resent and decry distortions, misrepresentations and outright lies, about ANY candidate. There should be no room on THIS forum for that, but alas it happens all the damned time. So sad you had to continue with the ugly "tradition."

Very disappointing indeed.

Edited to add, tho I probably shouldn't: This feels to me especially untoward coming from a non-U.S. resident. There's no secret -- and NONE of his supporters are misled -- that Dean is NOT a liberal. But what some of the purportedly more liberal folks here in the U.S. are trying to do with such slanted hit pieces is appalling. They make me ashamed to call myself a liberal if they can't be bothered to be honest. It's just very jarring to me that you would aid and abet them.

Eloriel

[newsguyatl]

8. eloriel

if you look at some of his other posts, you won't be surprised...


thanks for defending... yet again... you're gettin damn good at it, although as much practice as you and others are getting, i'm not surprised...

i guess with dean's frontrunner status right now, this is what we should have expected... besides, we need the practice for the real fight to come later anyway...


until then, keep fighting the good fight... (oh, and check your email)

[Eloriel]

10. Oh, cool, my mail!! Check yours again, please.

Thanks!

And for the kind words, too.

Eloriel

[althecat]

9. I don't know anything about Dean....

As I said this is just a talking point. And it looked interesting to me.

So sorry if I have offended.

[AWD]

26. Eloriel

I love you. Really, I do.

Can I bear your children??

[Eloriel]

27. ROTFL - - No, face time with Howard Dean will do just fine

:evilgrin:


:hi:

:bounce:

You GO, AWD!!

Eloriel

[AWD]

29. You can be my guest

to the Inaugural Ball, January 20th, 2005.

Of course, my wife might have something to say about that.......

[Eloriel]

31. It's okay,

it's not YOU I'm after.

:evilgrin:

Eloriel

[Mairead]

79. Eloriel, you frighten me. Honestly.

I gave you a pointer to a book co-written by an MD and a PhD, a book that includes some 600 citations of peer-reviewed scientific literature on the issue of medical mj and yet you're still claiming that Dean's prohibitionist stance is based on science. I bet you never even went near the book, did you.

[salin]

12. Who/what is Sam Smith's prorev.com ?

never heard of the cite.

[althecat]

14. Introducing Sam Smith....

http://www.prorev.com

Edited by Sam Smith, since 1964 Washington's most unofficial source

He compiles a great daily headline feed.. of which this was part of the latest offering.. called UNDERNEWS...

You can subscribe here.

http://prorev.com/indexa.htm

Sam is "a writer, activist and social critic who has been at the forefront of new ideas and new politics for more than three decades. So far as he can tell, he has been editing alternative publications for longer than anyone in the country, starting in 1964. He has also covered Washington longer than almost any journalist, having filed his first story in 1957 as a 19-year-old radio reporter."

http://prorev.com/bio.htm

[salin]

15. thanks for the link

:)

[althecat]

17. And in case you are wondering.... he is not a fan of Hillary either

[Jacobin]

13. I also heard he masturbated once.

And he had pre-marital sex. And that he cussed and yelled at his mom once.

It's even be said he's had arguments with his wife and slammed a door.

Also, he's been intoxicated.

I think he had acne when he was young.

In medical school, he probably didn't study really hard for every test and thus endangered his patients.

Yes. He's a warmonger. No doubt about it.
That's why he came out against the invasion of Iraq when it was considered political suicide to do so.

Understand? :-)

[althecat]

16. There is no need to descend into farce Jacobin... it's a talking point...

Not the inquisition.

Truth is I don't know whether I should like Dean or not - and am seeking some guidance.

As he is the frontrunner in the Democratic race... (and I just saw his mug on the front page of Newsweek) it is kind of important to know what he does think - and whether these widespread criticisms of him hold water.

Stories about his apparent acceptance of the US Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes are far from new. I am yet to see in all the above any explanation of why this is not a bad thing.

Yes Dean was against the Iraq war and that was very good. However, he seems to very much be sitting on the fence on the question of whether the PNAC agenda of doing one thing in the USA, and telling the rest of the world to do another is morally vacuous.

I posted this talking point because I was interested in whether there is a sensible response to this argument.

Finally.... while I am not an American... Sam Smith is, and a progressive one to boot. So perhaps his opinions have some validity even if mine don't.

[Cha]

18. Why don't you go to Dean's website and look around for yourself

and they always answer questions, too!

http://www.deanforamerica.com

[w4rma]

23. Massive information dump on Gov. Howard Dean

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=43435&mesg_id=43435&page=

[Eloriel]

30. Pre-emptive strike doctrine

I heard him myself say, "And on Day 1 I will tear up the Bush Doctrine of Pre-emptive strike."

On another occasion some someone tried to force him into a hypothetical corner on the subject -- a trap -- and he refused to play. They wanted him to say he would NEVER use pre-emptive war. If he had, they'd have come back with, "You mean if NKorea had a fully loaded nuke and you knew they were about to lob it into California, you wouldn't use a pre-emptive strike" or some such other nonsense. Karl Rove would've kicked his ass from one side of this country to the other, and thrown him away like a used kleenex.

I frankly agree with not just his stated position of tearing up the Bush Doctrine, AND his refusal to play into the gotcha game, but also the notion that there might, just might be a situation where it is prudent and just and appropriate to use a pre-emptive war. You know, maybe a Hitler-invades-Poland type of thing. That I can't THINK of one off-hand doesn't mean someone else couldn't, or that such a circumstance might not someday arise.

I agree with zidzi. If you want to know about Dean, please don't get the information through the filters of people who don't actually "get it" about Dean. Here are some websites for you:

fficial Website
http://www.deanforamerica.com

Official Blog
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/

BRAND New Democrats for Dean
http://brandnewdemocrats.blogspot.com

Independents for Dean
http://deanindependents.org/

Republicans for Dean
http://republicansfordean.blogspot.com/

African Americans for Dean (new)
http://www.africanamericansfordean.com/AA/

Doctors for Dean
http://www.doctorsfordean.org/

40th Anniversary of March on Washington, Aug. 28
http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000991.html

Americans with Disabilities for Dean
http://www.deanforamerica.com/site/PageServer?pagename=community_americanswithdisabilities

I especially encourage people to spend time on the Blog and to read some of the Comments posted there by supporters. The Blog tends to give the best read on Dean other along with his own apperances and speeches. And DO go read his wonderful June 23 Announcement speech, somewhere on his official website. I loved it, and when I sent it to my mostly apolitical brother, he told me he got tears in his eyes just reading it.

And finally, here's my stock advice for people about Dean:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=157434

Eloriel

[althecat]

32. Fair enough... now I get it....

Thanks for filling me in Eloriel... I really wasn't trying to bash dean with this post... just passing on Sam Smith's bulletin and wondering what the big deal is about Dean. And now I know.... he's sexy :)

But seriously I can fully understand the need to select the most electable candidate. That's politics.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

36. Of course the Dean campaign wants you to only read what they say about him

but I would keep reading all the independent sources if you want the truth.

Here are some more links you might want to check out:

http://www.vpirg.org/campaigns/financeReform/cfr_page111.html
http://rutlandherald.nybor.com/News/Story/33681.html
http://www.vtce.org/deancrisisagvt.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/912159.asp?cp1=1
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A1907-2003Jul2
http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/930194.asp?0si=-&cp1=1#BODY
http://www.thomhartmann.com/government.shtml

[Ardee]

39. Eloriel, while I respect your posts

more than many here at DU I must harp on one point here. I am rather puzzled by your request that people "ignore" opinion and fact from other than Dean supporters sites. At least that is what I get from that post above:
"I agree with zidzi. If you want to know about Dean, please don't get the information through the filters of people who don't actually "get it" about Dean. Here are some websites for you:"

If one is concerned with the electoral process then one is obligated to fully understand the candidate prior to committing ones vote to that candidate. To me that means not just reading the pro stuff but also the anti as well.While I understand that you have committed to Dean and you understand that I am repelled by his apparent about face from his centrist governorship to his "Wellstone liberal" guise now that he seeks to claim the WH we both respect research, fact gathering and all opinions Im certain.

[Eloriel]

68. That's a good misinterpretation, Ardee

and it makes me understand a little more about your own stance.

I am rather puzzled by your request that people "ignore" opinion and fact from other than Dean supporters sites.

I am not suggesting people IGNORE other information, what I'm suggesting is that they go to the primary source(s) first and foremost to get the bulk of their "facts" and form their own opinions and analysis primarily from that.

Let me give you an example. Would you rather listen to Sen. Byrd or any other of our more outspoken Congresspeople on C-Span yourself, or read about it as interpreted by people like Bob Novak, George Will, etc.? Krugman (as an example) you'd probably trust, tho, right? Would you rather see George Bush's press opportunity yourself, watch his body language and note his handling of the language yourself, or read a mainstream, usually uncritical press account of it?

What I've seen re Dean is that there are very, very few "Krugmans" out there who "get it" about this campaign or even Dean himself. They've been mostly spewing warmed over Conventional Wisdom (or RNC/DLC spin) and misconceptions about him (or downright untruths, some no doubt on purpose) or in some cases wishful thinking: he'll fizzle when the war is over; he has no broad appeal; he's the angry candidate and that can't attract voters; he's dragging the party too far to the left and off a cliff; etc.

People can read anything they want. BUT if they want an accurate "analysis" of Howard Dean, they probably need to develop their own, using primary sources. 'Cause as I've said, I've seen few interpretations of Dean that are at all accurate or capture the dynamics anywhere close.

Let me just share one thing with you:

I am repelled by his apparent about face from his centrist governorship to his "Wellstone liberal" guise

Okay, BUT no supporter I know of agrees with your take on this. He has never claimed to be a Wellstone liberal, or in fact a liberal.

When he adopted Wellstone's famous line, he thought it originated with some elected official from CA whom he'd first heard use it. Later, when he learned the origin, he started properly attributing it when he used it AND went on to say that he didn't share Wellstone's politics, but he definitely shared his willingness to get up and fight for what he believed in. He has since quit using it all together, I think. So really, what I'm saying, is that if you have the impression that he EVER claimed to be a Wellstone liberal, or even tried to imply that he was, then it's a misimpression. Rhetorical question or you: where did you get that impression? From others, probably, not from primary sources (Dean or his campaign) Or did you just assume that because he was using a line you knew was Wellstone's that he was trying to assume the Wellstone mantle, without listening to him yourself?

I'll add just one more thing. Lots of pundits are saying he's going to have to "move center" for the general election. That's more tripe from more people who either aren't paying attention or have an agenda. From what I know of him, he's exactly where he's going to be which is exactly where he was. That doesn't preclude growing on certain issues (as many of us hope he will on a few issues), but that "growth" would likely be slightly more leftward.

Eloriel

[Ardee]

72. As ever, E, a thoughtful and courteous response

but my impressions of Dean come from much more than that one attribution, though I hasten to thank you for the clarification. His record as governor disturbs me greatly whether or not he claims the left.It is necesary ,imo, to do more than listen to a candidates current words, given the goal of attaining the nomination.I would frame those words in the context of his record in public office....

What I will do is to spend some time at the sites you suggest, but I will read his position based upon my knowledge of his actions during his governorship. I agree that people can change, can grow, obviously, but unless Ive missed another Dean admission, Ive heard nothing that would lead me to expect his presidency to be any different from his stewardship of Vermont.

While your point about listening to a candidate first hand is certainly valid, there is also much validity in listening to all opinions and perspectives on all the candidates, as long as one maintains a healthy scepticism.....

[Tinoire]

45. I am truly puzzled

that someone as intelligent as you never takes the time and only posts a bunch of links to a candidates marketing sites.

Official Website - not at all objective

Official Blog - surprisingly a little more objective because enough people are saying "Hey, wait a minute, this is not adding up"

BRAND New Democrats for Dean - Call it what it is DLC for Dean

Independents for Dean - not very convincing

Republicans for Dean - Aw C'MON!

African Americans for Dean (new) - so new that since Jul 22, 2003 there are no messages and only 51 members, most of whom I would wager are with the Dean HQs because I've been checking this site since you first posted it wondering just how many AAs will fall for this and the membership has only budged by 1 since the first week. Wow, and another site that only links back to campaign HQs.

Doctors for Dean - What a surprise! A bunch of Doctors afraid that Kucinich's health plans will cut into their profits being for Dean.

40th Anniversary of March on Washington, Aug. 28- Gee, and posts specifically referring to DU as the good Dr tries to once again do what the Democratic Party has become famous for- appropriating Black votes while turning its back on Black issues

Americans with Disabilities for Dean- Another one with no forum except a bunch of links back to the official Dean HQs. Is Dean HQs thinking no one will notice this savvy marketing? Of course, I fully expect that a bunch of Dean staffers will start posting to these blogs because after all, politics is war and no trick in the book is worth passing up.

In short- slick marketing but I doubt it will work; Dean can only run on people's anger so long before they notice how marketed they're being. Anger will run out of steam beofre the elections and if Dean wants to win, he's going to have to do better with the issues.

Sorry to offend you but as I said before I haven't been posting at DU to make friends so I care not a fig's leaf what people think about me- I am at Du because our country AND the Democratic Party are going down the tubes due to Centrism.

[blm]

52. Sham front groups are a GOP staple.

Just like push-polling.

How is it that so many GOP standard tactics have found their way into the Dean campaign?

[Tinoire]

55. Valid question with no acceptable answer. N/T

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

56. Because the Republicans want to run against Dean?

Republicans for Dean indeed.

[Eloriel]

69. Tinoire

You can't offend me. You lost me entirely with a post of yours not long ago outlining a ridiculous (truly whacky, actually) counter-psyops theory you have re Dean and the DLC. That was probably the last straw for me where you're concerned.

So as you run off to save the country AND the Democratic Party, I would just encourage you to get a 2nd opinion on who the enemies are. You know, a Reality Check.

Oh, and the Dean campaign has nothing to do with the other sites I listed. That, in fact, is precisely the point. These are supporters' sites. Nor can I imagine why not having a forum is a big deal to you, esp. for new, start-up sites and esp. since there are SO many other sites and email groups which are very active, not to mention the blog itself.

Also, the 40th Anniversary March isn't something from HQ -- it's the DC area Dean supporters who are involved with that. I think their effort and involvement is absolutely terrific, and worth promoting, which is why I include the link. But you can only see cynicism: all looks jaundiced to the jaundiced eye.

You know, your criticism would be a lot more effective if it weren't (a) so bereft of facts and understanding, and (b) so damned mean-spirited to start with.

Eloriel

[tsipple]

19. Isn't CommonDreams.org Really Pro-Nader?

I do see some occasional pieces on that web site that are thoughtful, but I also remember an awful lot of pro-Nader stuff in 2000 (and after) that was just way out there.

I totally agree with the thrust of the other posts here. Dean is a flaming middle-of-the-road Democrat, and no one here thinks otherwise. He's liberal (or even somewhat libertarian) on social policies, fiscally conservative, and frequently pragmatic. He's neither a hawk nor a dove. I like all that, and I think that recipe is an electoral winner.

Frankly I'd prefer to see CommonReality(.org) rather than just CommonDreams.org. Martin Luther King had a dream, but he also understood it would be, it must be, a reality.

[althecat]

21. Sam Smith is a bit of a Nader fan too & I am learning a bit here...

(just in case you thought this was from commondreams.. it wasn't.. it is from prorev.com)

I have had a look at the Dean Website and it is helpful. Thanks Jacobin. Dean is it seems very firmly ensconced on the Foreign Affairs fence it seems...

and what I am learning from this thread is that Dean is seen as a pragmatist who stands a chance of winning an election. And that that is why lots of people support him.

Personally I would take dreams over reality any day of the week, especially when picking a candidate for office. I find the notion that you have to be grey coloured to get elected in the United States a little confusing. Who wants to campaign for a grey candidate? Will non-voters enrol to vote for a grey candidate?

Perhaps the US has had so many grey men for so long now that the idea of someone who actually beleives something is a political turnoff. Anyways... Dean is definitely a hell of a lot better propect than Leiberman... :)

[Atlant]

42. Yes.

> Isn't CommonDreams.org Really Pro-Nader?

Yes, IMNSHO, they certainly WERE. I can't really say if they still are
as I haven't gone there much lately.

Atlant

[dajabr]

20. If you're concerned about Dean on the issues...

But interested in looking beyond badly researched and slanted "journalism," the articles here may be helpful:

http://deandefense.org/faq/

If you only want to see Dean from one angle, or through the prism of the far Left or Right, don't bother clicking. Keeping the blinders on is easier and safer...

[althecat]

25. Thanks.. useful link Dajabr... But what is it with you Dean supporters...

Very useful link. Exactly what the Dr ordered.

Though after looking at the bit on Foreign affairs I see he has promised not to cut the defense budget. I suspect this site in fact confirms most of my own fears about Dean. He is undoubtedly a lot better than Bush... or for that matter Leiberman. But is he what America needs?

Meanwhile... how come everybody who supports Dean is so touchy. Almost without exception every post in this thread involves a personal attack of some sort. Usually from the perspective of accusing the poster - i.e. me - of either having a closed mind or somehow lacking ethics.

I detect in all this hostility a bit of latent concern - even among Dean supporters - that perhaps their rough diamond has a few significant flaws.

Though I could be wrong of course. Better check those blinkers are set correctly....

[althecat]

33. Wow a whole thread on grumpy dean supporters....

I see there is little point in discussing this here... it's a discussion that's already been had.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=191273&mesg_id=191273

[Eloriel]

34. Some of us are touchy because

we're sick of the lies and distortions that some other candidates' supporters keep throwing out there. So if our patience is a little thin when we get around to dealing with your post, perhaps you'll understand.

Yes, he definitely has flaws. I don't agree with him on all the issues at all -- never agreed with Clinton, either. Or anyone else. But even at that, he often urpasses my expectations.

Most important of all: he tells me the truth as he sees it. He speaks up unapologetically. He criticizes Bush on all the right things, and quickly.

He LISTENS to the people he meets (read that Announcement speech for the subtle but profound change in his understanding of his campaign that that caused).

His campaign is the most smartly aggressive and creative one I've EVER seen in my 55 years, and they don't engage in dirty tricks to do that. They actively seize on opportunities and ideas that are presented to them. They let NO grass grow under their feet. They're leading the pack, not only in numbers, but in ideas, rhetoric and policies. All the others are way behind.

In addition to the authenticity and honesty I see in someone I also perceive to be a genuinely good man without artifice, he gives me HOPE. It's not a false hope, either. There's a reinvigoration of democracy going on in this campaign, bringing new people energetically into politics again or for the first time, and I love his vision for America.

For me, he's a blend of Harry Truman and JFK (altho a friend who's more knowledgeable about that era than I, since I wasn't paying much attn at the time, says he's more RFK). In any case, I see vision, clarity and higher purpose combined with blunt talk and smack-down pragmatism that'll get the job DONE, by golly, instead of just talked about. Or promised, with little chance or hope of getting the thing moved any farther than that.

I'm CRAZY about him. In my 55 years (to repeat myself), I have never felt this way about any other politician.

Like someone posted in Comments to his blog a while back: "Do you ever get the feeing you were an extra on the set of a Frank Capra movie?" YESS!!!!! And another: "Howard Dean makes me want to be a better American." Yes, that too. Yes, I want to get involved. I WANT MY COUNTRY BACK too. He's showing me -- and plenty of others -- that we can do that, we CAN get our country back, by coming together and working for it.

None of the others can do that. Some of them don't even see the need for it.

Eloriel

[Quahog]

43. Yes, Eloriel, you nailed it

Dean is well to my right on many issues (my ideal president would be somewhere between Ted Kennedy and Che Guevara on the political spectrum). He's a flawed human being, just like every other candidate, and just like me. He is blunt, he occasionally misspeaks, he's not as polished as Clinton, etc etc etc.

But I see everything you see in him. He inspires people, and our party needs that more than any other thing at this point. We need to get energized to take this country back and start moving back into the realm of sanity, and Dean is the only guy at this point who looks like he's got a vision to do that. Everywhere else I look in the Dem pack, I see either liberal idealism with little grounding in reality, or "politics as usual." Dean has got me thinking differently about politics than I have in my 43 years. I'm more excited about his candidacy than I was about Carter's (I worked on his re-election campaign), and Jimmy is ideologically closer to my heart. But Dean is inspirational, he really is. He's giving me hope.

I see Dean as a potentially excellent transitional president. He seems like the kind of guy who could demonstrate to the vast political middle in this country that turning your ideological gaze leftward now and again isn't the worst thing to do. The shrieking pundits of the radical right have Mr. and Mrs. America literally terrified of liberals, terrified that they are going to shut down the military and throw open America's borders to gay pedophile al-Qaeda atheist storm troopers who will go door to door and disarm the populace in pursuit of a world government run out of France. There are a lot of otherwise normal people in this country who actually believe this shit. Dean seems like the kind of guy who, while not embracing every liberal policy we might want him to, will show average folks how liberalism can be a good thing from a pragmatic sense.

I've said this before on this forum: you can't move the country from reactionary, fundamentalist end-times Christian, corporate-sponsored neo-fascism to true democratic liberalism in one election cycle. People won't go for it. It's like trying to convince a guy who drives a Hummer that he should ride a bicycle instead. You need to take smaller steps (get him in a Blazer or something) toward the goal.

I believe Dean could get us moving in the right direction (swinging the country left will get us moving toward the center). He may not get us to our ultimate destination, but at least we will no longer be traveling in the opposite direction of our goal. And that would be a huge improvement over our present trajectory.

[Woodstock]

74. Interesting points, Quahog

I'm not 100% in sync with Dean, but I think he'll be at the very least as good a president as Clinton, only without the indiscrete zipper problem. And things were a lot better with Clinton than they are now. We need to capture swing votes to win, but we also need to motivate the Democrats to get off their duffs and to the polls to vote. Dean can accomplish both of these things. And we don't have the luxury of taking any chances - we HAVE to win this one, for the sake of the country itself (and the Constitution, which is in the process of being dismantled.)

[blm]

51. Many of us are touchy because Dean and many

of his supporters lied and distorted the records of our candidates starting last January. Many here at DU cheered the attacks. NOW Dean supporters are whining?

It's absurd that you want to cry foul that those candidates and their supporters are hitting back at the guy who threw the first twenty punches.

[Nazgul35]

58. I like the bait and switch you employ here...

first it's his supporters who came on DU and distorted your candidates positions....then it's Dean himself who "threw the first twenty punches..."

Personally, I don't like to say anything negative about any of the dems...I save all my disgust and energy to bring down the chimp in chief....

Why do I support Dean? Because I of all the democratic candidates, he was the one who was going after Bush full bore...not waiting until the fall to get it on....he is the exact opposite of the Gephardt/Daschel debacle that allowed Bush to declare victory in the 2002 elections...both candidates, concerned about their future run for president, allowed the opportunity to hit chimpy hard slip away so as not to appear too partisan...

PARTIES ARE PARTISAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

We need a candidate that offers policy alternatives to the repugs...

But that said...I hope we all believe in the idea of the individual and understand that as democrats, we will all have our views about who is the best candidate for us....and THE MATURITY to understand that the universe doesn't revolve around ourselves (well...actually it does around me >:>)...

I will support and WORK TO ELECT any democratic nominee for president and anything less from ALL DEMOCRATS will equal victory for Bush....

So keep in mind...there is now repugs filter on the DU web board and that much of this may simply be counter espionage (from all sides) designed to get people so worked up that they will not support any candidate BUT their chosen one...which would hand the election to Bush....

Democracy is a particapatory game folks...and sitting on the sidelines is going to ensure that you will never win...if you want you opinions to be taken seriously by the DLC, DNC, Dean, Kerry, the American people, etc...you have to spend the time you were going to be watching "Friends" down at the library for the local dem meetings...

So start now...go to the DNC and sign up for $5 a week donation for the ePatriot fund...if 1.25 million of us do this for 32 weeks, we will have raised $200 million for the eventual dem nominee....

Anyone who says...1) "I don't want to give to the DNC cause they are not acting the way I want them too"...or 2) "I'm not sure who the nominee will be so i'm waiting..." Do not understand that 1) the reason the DLC was able to get traction was cause we all walked away from the party...leaving it cash strapped at the most important time in history and 2) don't really want to beat Bush....

DO SOMETHING!!!

[blm]

59. Just the truth, Nazgul.

I wouldn't have two words to say against Dean if he hadn't started attacking unfairly last January just to get media attention. Well, now he has what he wanted.

He DID throw the first twenty punches and many cheered him on. Now they whine. Too bad.

[PaDUer]

63. Why are the R's hoping

that Dean runs against *? There's something there that we don't know?

[blm]

65. Maybe...internal polling?

Quite often internal polling will tell them much more than the polls the public sees. Could also be why many in the DNC are against Dean's tactics.

[JNelson6563]

37. I can't speak for others but here's my beef

with your post and those like it.

Some of us have taken arduous journies regarding fact finding. I know I learned some standards for basing decisions on and it is a bit more disciplined than taking the first opinion piece I see on a topic and running with it as substantiated fact.

Apparently not everyone has the same standards. This saddens me more than anything and I believe this is what has lead America's political dialogue into the sewer. I like to think we can do better.

But hey, that's just me.

Julie

[Mairead]

80. Acknowledging that you don't claim to speak for any but yourself

I'll just point out that there are other ...ardent... Dean supporters who have avoided even having solid third-party information handed to them on a plate because it contradicts the Dean Party Line.

That kind of thing inspires fear and revulsion, not acceptance.

[Quahog]

40. Cutting defense is not the path to peace

There's a huge difference between being "anti-war" and "anti-defense," and that distinction is rarely drawn here on DU.

Whether we like it or not, the military-industrial complex warned against by Eisenhower is a very real and enormously significant part of the fabric of our nation. Our economy would simply not work as it does without it. And by virtue of the fact that we have positioned ourselves as the world leader in military spending, we have also made ourselves the world's cop, for better or for worse.

All of this has nothing to do with Dean specifically, but I believe him when he says that we need to abandon a policy of pre-emptive war. I also believe him (and agree with him, as the vast majority of Americans do) when he says that we have to stay in Iraq and help the people we have hurt there. Clearly, a larger coalition of real allies willing to pitch in human and financial resources is what's needed. But for us to simply pull out of Iraq at this point would be unconscionable. We OWE those people.

I would love to see the size of the defense budget as a percentage of our total national spending decrease in my lifetime. But like so many other things, you can't just flip a switch and make it so. We would have to first start spending even MORE money on better diplomacy, better intelligence, and more importantly, basic needs for people who live in potentially unstable areas. Most of the trouble spots in the world could be fixed with liberal applications of food, shelter, jobs, medical infrastructure, santitation, security, etc. Perhaps a wise use of our military would be to have them working on these kinds of positive, on-the-ground changes in areas of the world that need them most. You know, turn the army into the Peace Corps.

When everyone is fed and healthy and productive and out of the elements, the world will be a safer place. This is common sense. Some ideological wars will never go away (e.g., who has the "holier" claim to a certain patch of desert), but it becomes much easier for people to negotiate their differences rather than kill over them when none of the agrieved parties is hungry.

When any candidate says that they would not cut the defense budget, they are speaking sensibly. The defense budget needs to be spent differently, sure (more money for soldiers and their families, better benefits for vets). But the day you hear a candidate claim that they would dramatically cut the defense budget, put fresh batteries in your bullshit meter and ask yourself, what would happen to the rest of the American economy that's built around our military if all that money just went away?

[tinanator]

60. cant get there from here

what exactly makes you think these legislator/lobbyists are going to change themselves? When fraud and theft are rampant to the point of business as usual and no one says a cross word? what a joke.

[Mairead]

81. I don't think 'would not work as it does' is an argument in your favor

Many of us think that 'work as it does' is extremely harmful not only to the part of the world that's our victims, but to us.

And as to putting batteries in one's bullshit meter, perhaps you should do that? Because for you to suggest that de-funding the military-industrial complex would mean economic collapse buys right into their propaganda. Hook, line, and sinker.

There are other segments of the economy that could bear being funded, and they could profitably absorb just as much as the war machine, if not more. Infrastructure. Education. Housing. Science and engineering. Putting the world to rights (with care rather than bullets).

[dajabr]

67. Sorry althecat...

Most of us Dean supporters have been attacked or maligned as a group or individually for many months. Guess I'm just growing a gruff exterior in all my posts - no slight of you was intended.

Not concerned with Dean. His "pros" far outweigh his "cons" in my mind given today's political landscape.

Now, your mind is a different issue, and I do not wish to "convert" anyone - just ask they seek out "the rest of the story." If the criticisms from the far Left and Right still ring true after investigating further, then we should agree to disagree, and I look forward to working with you after the Primary.

[JNelson6563]

24. what I don't see here

is facts, sources...objectivity.

If this is what we can expect from our own camp, we all better be practicing our sieg heils.

Julie

[jpgray]

28. These articles are accurate, but Dean is still a good candidate. (nt)

[Tinoire]

41. Finally! A reasonable response from a Dean supporter!

You have no idea how refreshing your post is!

I have nothing against people voting for Dean because voting is an individual right and everyone's choice should be respected but I do have something against the "let me bury my head in the sand and pretend it's not true" mentality.

Thank you! A sincere thank you! \

I WILL/DO respect your right to vote for Dean as long as you know who/what you're voting for!

If Dean wins, based on INFORMED votes, I will have NO problem supporting him. If he wins on anything less, it will be a tragedy!

A tragedy is what I am afraid of as too many supporters bury their heads in the sand and get hyper-sensitive. The attacks haven't even begun- when the Republicans unleash their machinery, things will get really ugly. Sincerely- May the BEST man win! If that's Dean, then so be it but Dems MUST go into this with open eyes!

[REP]

35. Some Of These Articles Are Kind Of Funny

Like him having the nerve to be born to a wealthy family. Oh, the gall! One candidate married money - should that be held against him (I don't think so). As for the bits and pieces that aren't opinion - I don't think any Dean supporter thinks he's perfect. I don't, and I've been enthusiastic about his candidacy since before the sabre-rattling began for the latest Gulf War.

The good thing about opinion pieces like thse are that they help point out misconceptions and things he could have done better now, so they the response is out there before the election. I like Dean, and while I don't agree with a lot of these articles, I do appreciate getting to see them. Not that I have to counter anti-Dean sentiment in my real life; my family, friends and neighbors are all supporters. But still - it's good to know about everything that's out there, even when it's not flattering.

[deutsey]

38. Yeah, and Kerry is Skull and Bones and

voted for the war, Clark did all sorts of terrible things in Kosovo, Kucinich bankrupted the city when he was Mayor or whatever, and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

We know. We know. We know.

Same dead horse here. Everyone start beating it again.

[Tinoire]

46. No Deutsey -Not everyone start beating it but Everyone start DIGGING! n/t

[NicRic]

49. Also would not allow MMT in Vermont !

Many of you might ask what is MMT ? Well its Methadone Maitenience Treatment ,which has saved the lives of many opiate addicts all around the country. Many famlies are effected by these programs ,when a love one becomes a opiate addict. From what I have heard Dean against the advice of every addiction specialist in his state .Stood by his not in my state, way of thinking ! Making the life of many addicts trying to get help ,much harder .Many had to drive hours out of state for treatment. Not all MMT patients are street addicts ,many are people that have been invovled in an accident that required surgurey and ended up addicted to their pain medication. These are private clinics that the patient pay for with their own money , they must have proof of employment, counseling and stay out of trouble with the law ! A Governor that is a Doctor to boot ,ignoring others in his feild that specialize in this treament, shows a kind of closed mind , and a position hard to understand .While we spend millions building new prisons, which only produces a vicious cycle, to deny people the right to get treament in a private pay program , does not seem progressive.

[dsc]

71. I will bet you a huge sum of money

that there is no way in Hell that "every addiction specialist in Vermont" recomended he approve methadone clinics. I know the stories Dean haters like states that methadone is without contraversy and universely well thought of. The truth is not that simple. There are many, many, many people who are experts in addiction who think methadone is worthless or even dangerous. I should know as I am in AA and know several recovering heroin addicts who believe precisely what I stated.

[Duder]

53. I like Sam Smith but...

I'm surprised that he used http://nyc.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=63409&group=webcast as his source.

In reading the responses at Indy it looks like the typical candidate versus candidate bash thread that's common at DU. It's not too kind towards Kucinich either.

[mandyky]

64. I've read most of these

and the most troubling one to me is the Israel thing. Dean supporters know he is not the lefty the media tried to label him as, but we do trust Dean and are very loyal. We know Dean has warts, and so do all the other candidates.

Lately it seems the Kerry and Kucinich folks have nothing good to say about their candidate but are trying to sway Dean supporters. Let me know if it works, because it ain't happening for me.

[Ripley]

66. The "hit" about the environment is lame.

Other than Kucinich (who is the only one who says sign Kyoto now), all the Dems basically have the same environmental stance. On Kyoto Dean says "...not sign or ratify any agreement that would result in serious harm to the U.S. economy." What's wrong with that? Should he allow Kyoto to push us further into recession?

So if one were to vote only on a single issue (Kyoto) one would have to vote Kucinich. I'm not a single issue voter.

[helleborient]

70. As an alternative give us a REAL candidate...

Instead of just attack politics as usual.

I posted earlier about all of the other candidates missing from the Young Democrats Convention. No one else has released a comprehensive plan for revitalizing Rural America - even though they're campaigning in Iowa!

It seems like for now that Dean IS the campaign. I could be swayed, but I haven't seen anything beyond policy statements. Where's the real work being done by the other candidates...or are we waiting for these masterful candidates to blow our socks off in a couple of months??

C'mon...those who support them, blow our socks off with what they are doing now! I don't want to hear about Clark's military resume, Kerry's past photo ops and pre-Iraq congressional resume - do something to make us excited and take notice NOW...because if they can't, I really don't think they can win the general election.

[Mairead]

78. Revitalising rural areas?

Dennis Kucinich talks about breaking up agribusiness in favor of family farms, stopping schemes like having to buy fresh seed every year, labeling or eliminating frankencrops, refreshing and extending the national infrastructure into rural areas too.

Sounds like at least the skeleton of a plan.

[MiltonLeBerle]

73. Don't forget Ted Rall's comments:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=127&ncid=127&e=2&u=/030814/7/4yycl.html

"...According to Vermonters, Dean is a shrewd operator who saw millions of anti-Iraq (news - web sites) war demonstrators last spring for what they were: untapped Democratic primary voters. A few well-placed verbal broadsides spread his reputation as the only presidential contender willing to go after Bush while other Democrats remained silent or supported his war. His opportunistic Bush-bashing attracted liberal voters tired of being taken for granted and disgusted by do-nothing "Republican Lite" Dems.


Liberals are driving Dean's come-from-nowhere campaign, but they don't share his take on most issues. "If he gets the nomination, he'll run back to the center and be more mainstream," predicts Republican resort owner Bill Stenger. "He was not a left-wing wacko."


Even as Joe Lieberman (news - web sites) berates Dean for pulling the Democratic Party too far left, Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich attacks him from the left, as nothing more than another Clinton--a Democrat in name only. "If someone wants to be a fiscal conservative, a good place to start is the Pentagon (news - web sites) budget and he's already taken it off the table," rages Kucinich. (Dean on the military: "I don't think you can cut the defense budget.") "How in the world can you be for peace when you won't touch a Pentagon budget that needs war to expand, that needs war in order to justify itself?"


Dean's supporters don't believe what they're told. They hear what they want to believe, and Dean provides the strident vagaries that fuel their self-delusion. "We need to know what the president knew and when he knew it," he spat when Bush got caught lying about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in his State of the Union address. That reference to the 1974 Nixon impeachment hearings affirmed many Democrats' belief that Bush deserves serious punishment for lying about Iraq, but will President Dean turn over Bush to the International War Crimes Tribunal? Not bloody likely. And how can antiwar types reconcile Dean's support for Bush's invasion of Afghanistan..."

[gully]

75. More interesting information here...

http://thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030901&s=pollitt :P

[TrueBlueDem]

76. All this proves is Howie is not the fave among Greens & Progressives

Newsflash -- Howard Dean is to the right of Ralph Nader and Dennis Kucinich. But... didn't we all know that already?

Remember, Dean never labeled himself a liberal; the press and the GOP did that. When pressed on the issue, he characterizes himself as a centrist.

[stickdog]

77. My problem with this sort of bashing.

All things are relative.

Most of the Democratic candidates can be bashed as badly or worse on the exact SAME topics (Israel, pot, US superpower status, the Kyoto Protocol).

The remainder are complete and utter grudge match hit pieces.