Why is there so much hatred of Dean on DU?

[CMT]

is it because he has gotten so much of the publicity? Is it because he has gone from seventh in the polls to tied for first? Is it that his campaign can attract large numbers of people to his rallies and Meetups? Whatever it is many people on DU seem to hate--or at least have an intense dislike of Dean. To be fair it seems that Dean attracts either intense support or intense wrath.

I'm a Dean supporter who doesn't like to tear other candidates down. I think any one of them is better than Bush and have said so repeatedly that I would vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is (as have many Dean supporters).

Yet we get violent anti-Dean posts on a daily basis questioning if he is really a Democrat--despite being elected the Democratic Governor of a left of center state five times. We get posts titled, "Dean seems to me to be someone who would run as an Independent if he doesn't get the nomination" despite Dean saying that he would support the eventual Democratic nominee.

His supporters are singled out by some as being "fanatical" with one Dean supporter who did a post on his experience visiting Dean headquarters being asked, "did they show you where the Kool aid is?" a not so veiled reference to Jonestown.

Now we have a poll on DU where many are gleeful that Dean is running second to Clark. This is fine with me as it is as meaningless of a poll as some of those which had Dean leading on DU. But my question is where are the Kerry and Kucinich supporters? Last I looked they only had 17 and 20 votes a piece out of more than 230 cast.

I think I got an answer when one respondent to the poll wrote: "Although I'm a Kerry person, I voted for Clark, only because it was closer than I've seen in a while...Sometimes I wonder if the Dean folks e-mail each other... every time they see a poll, in order to Dean it that is how fanatical they are."

We are the fanatical ones? To dislike Dean so much that you would vote for someone other than your preferred candidate just to see Dean lose a meaningless poll on DU?

I hope General Clark does run. He would be a powerful voice who would bring alot to the campaign. Also as an anti-war advocate himself he would bring even more credibility to the views of Dean, Kucinich, Mosley-Braun, and Sharpton on the premier foreign policy question of our time--the invasion of Iraq.

[newsguyatl]

1. beautiful

just beautiful!


CMT, the voice of reason, keep fighting the good fight...

[Cha]

2. I understand intensely disliking someone as I feel that way about

lieberman and bush! So I guess it's all in where you are coming from!

I know we had some disruptors on the Board who were purposely trying to stir up trouble with Supporters of Howard Dean! :kick:

I've just got my eyes on the prize and will let nothing deter me from my goal of working to get Dean elected Prez! :dem:

[quinnox]

3. Since I'm one of the ones quoted

I want to say you are taking this way too serious. It is all in good fun. I'll even say this, I have started to appreciate Dean, the man, more and more. I don't hate Dean. I would vote for him if he won. Do a search of my posts in the past month, you won't find one thread I started negative about Dean because I have changed my opinion of him a bit. It's a few of his supporters that give him a bad name. No, it's not all of them, only a small group within, yes, that I find fanatical. I'm not the only one who has observed this, there have been many, many posts in the past saying the same thing.

[CMT]

9. its not you

but it is a legitimate question--where are the Kerry supporters I know he has more than 20. You may have been the only honest one who said "yes I voted for Clark even though my preference is with Kerry".
and yes there are disruptors with Dean but every campaign has them but the only ones who get labeled are the Dean supporters.

[JI7]

13. i usually don't vote

i usually don't vote in the polls even though i support kerry. i did vote in this recent one after reading this thread because i wanted to see what the "controversy" was about. but i usually don't vote , i don't even go on the kerry blog. i'm sure many other kerry supporters are the same way, that's why the numbers are as they appear. also there probably are some who really have switched to clark recently since it seems more likely he will run now than it was before.

[Clete]

4. Think disruptors, it puts things in perspective.

Oh, and don't feed. I stay out of the candidate bashing threads as I think it's counterproductive and a real waste of time.

[shance]

101. Jeepers FreepersFreepersFreepersFreepersFreepersFreepersFreep

oh, by the way, did I mention Freepers?

just checking.........

[newsguyatl]

5. i think it speaks

VOLUMES, too, that in this cheesy little, meaningless and spiteful poll, that dean is holding his own against essentially all the candidates and even the NON-candidate... that 76% of those who've voted, voted for either dean or clark makes it more than painfully obvious that this is an attempt to essentially "beat" dean, even by those not for clark... so silly, so immature, so spiteful, yet so not surprising...

what's also not surprising is that someone like CMT (a dean supporter) can craft such a balanced, eloquent and thoughtful post even after all the hate-filled bashing of dean today and everyday on DU...

[tsipple]

6. I Totally Agree

ANY Democratic nominee would be far better than George W. Bush, and Dean supporters, though certainly fond of their chosen candidate, do seem quite "with it" when it comes to that objective. (Insert here the standard "Except Joe Lieberman" qualifier. :-))

If Clark runs, great. I wish him all the best and want to learn more. If he doesn't he'll be on the short list for a senior cabinet post in a Democratic administration. Either way everyone's a winner.

[Jacobin]

7. Lots of sour grapes from

people whose candidates are falling by the wayside. I'm a Dean supporter as the invasion of Iraq is a huge issue for me. I lived through the Vietnam era and saw what it did to this country. Ripped it apart and killed hundreds of thousands of innocent Vietnamese and american soldiers needlessly. It's about to happen again...no its happening again. It took YEARS of work to get it stopped last time. It's gonna be the same thing again.

I'll vote for any dem who repudiates this ghastly conquering jag we are on, and who will re-commit this country to the Geneva Convention.

[liberalhistorian]

15. Excellent!

Couldn't have said it better myself, even though I was only a child during Vietnam. I do remember my parents taking me to anti-war rallies and marches, though, my stepdad was a college professor so there was plenty of opportunity!

[gristy]

8. You know what I hate

is a thread headline that implies a fact when in fact it is a lie. It is more than obvious that you wish to simply discredit Dean with such a headline. DUers will see your headline (and others like it), combine that with the spirited debates we have read about all the candidates, and some will start to feel things like "boy, Dean sure is hated by a lot of people on DU... I wonder why that is??". Approaches such as these are a standard tactic of the RNC. In fact, they are a standard tactic of anyone who wishes to play dirty.

If indeed you are a Dean supporter, CMT, you need to change your headline. If you are actually not a Dean supporter, then you can show us this by just leaving it as is.

[CMT]

11. it may have been a bit crass

as the first line of my message reads hate may be too strong but there is passionate dislike of Dean just as there is passionate approval of him. I've seen many posts which are downright ugly regarding Dean and did you object to them?

As for my credentials as a Dean supporter I need not prove them to you. I have been active on this site for quite a while and don't indulge in "RNC tactics" as you call them.

[gristy]

12. Well you need to understand how your thread title

contributes to an inaccurate perception of Dean and of his supporters/critics at DU.

Change it.

[ibegurpard]

16. I don't think it's totally inaccurate.

At least when you consider a small number very prolific posters.

[newsguyatl]

18. oh

put a sock in it, would ya

you sure are concerned about perception here it seems... why IS that?

nevermind, i know already :eyes:

[gristy]

21. huh?

[Doomsayer13]

10. I guess you need to be not running to be popular at DU

just look at Clark and Gore.

[mantis]

47. No.....

You need to be WAAAAAAAYYYY to the....oh
never mind.

[FarLeftRage]

14. That would be me

I am the Dean supporter who posted about the visit to his headquarters and was asked "where the kool aid is"

BTW, just for the record here I am a "he", a 45 year old man...
Doesn't anyone here look at profiles???

Oh well, a minor point I suppose...

[Cha]

24. I didn't look at your profile but I just assumed you were a guy!

Sometimes the profiles tell and sometimes they don't!

But, I've guessed wrong before, too! :-)

[CMT]

28. sorry

eom.

[Dookus]

17. I've actually seen...

very little "hatred" expressed here regarding any candidates with the possible exception of Lieberman.

There ARE, and SHOULD BE, people who post information for or against a candidate. Some do so a bit dishonestly, in my opinion, by presenting only half the story or drawing conclusions that don't necessarily come from the evidence.

But overall, I see a healthy, spirited debate about the candidates.

[vi5]

19. Oh brother....

Oh....never mind.

[dajabr]

20. CMT, Dean was not supposed to make it this far...

Seeing news posted here about Dean, now 5 months or so after he was supposed to flame out, is a daily reminder to some folks that their guy or gal just isn't cutting the mustard. Hence, you get the lashing out at Dean, when really they should be focused on helping to right their own candidate's ship.

You just need to rise above it and keep fighting the good fight (of which, your post is an excellent example!).

:toast:

[Dookus]

22. hey...

we're all (or at least 99.9% of here on DU) ARE fighting the good fight. The good fight is not limited to one candidate.

[dajabr]

25. There's an overall good fight (general election)...

And then there's the good fight to make sure the best candidate gets the nomination and his name does not get smeared on DU falsely. Like any good Democrat, we should be able to do more than one thing at a time. Thought that was obvious... :shrug:

[gristy]

27. yes, yes, yes

make sure the best candidate gets the nomination and his name does not get smeared on DU falsely.

I agree completely.

[Dookus]

30. Do you believe...

it's possible to be fighting the good fight and NOT be a Dean supporter?

[dajabr]

38. I find your question offensive...

And would rather ignore it, than dignify it with a response.

But, let's see if you can infer my meaning when I explain this to you again...

The overall good fight is winning the White House back (aka ABB).

The separate good fight (IMO - and you may not be part of this particular fight, as you may be fighting for another candidate) is to help Dean get the nomination.

See, two things at once...

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Those that support the DLC-annointed candidates are pissed off

because none of their candidates have captured the support and the imagination of us working class elites.

Lieberman's poll numbers are lower than Gray Davis. Edwards is stuck in the low single digits. Kerry has the most overrated resume, and can't even get the support of labor unions as Dick Gephardt has been able to do.

While Dean is strong, and getting stronger, we are a long ways from the Iowa caucus and the New Hampshire primary. There are two candidates that we should not dismiss: Dennis Kucinich and Dick Gephardt.

Kucinich has been right on target on the issues every day. Did anyone see Kucinich attack the utilities for the blackout fiasco?

Gephardt has a solid message, and he has been able to articulate his reasons for supporting the war on Iraq. While I think Gep is wrong on the war, I have to give him credit for succeeding at something that Kerry has repeatedly failed to do.

[newsguyatl]

26. i agree

i think it's gonna come down to dean and gephardt, hands down

[w4rma]

32. "doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead…Dean is the only one who could hold his own"

I posted this on another thread:

I don't think Clark will hurt Dean, as much, because Dean supporters seem to be more loyal to their candidate than supporters of other Democratic candidates.

…
Under the Clinton scenario, Kerry would fall into the second tier of Democratic hopefuls, favored by just 16 percent of voters. All the other Democratic candidates would be relegated to the single digits.

Dean’s support among independent- and reform-minded voters seems intact with or without Clinton in the race while Kerry would find his base of support among traditional Democratic voters threatened, according to Herald pollster R. Kelly Myers.

"If Hillary Clinton suddenly expressed some interest in the race, the biggest potential loser is Kerry," Myers told the Herald. "She doesn’t eat into Dean’s lead at all ... As of today, Dean is the only one who could hold his own (against Clinton)."
…
http://www4.fosters.com/News2003/July2003/July_28/News/reg_pol_0728a.asp
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190456&mesg_id=190456#191418

[CMT]

33. you are right

Dean's numbers in this poll tonight are very close to what they were in the official DU poll. So he is not losing much support (at least on DU) if Clark becomes a candidate. It would appear that Kerry is the one who is the big loser if Clark gets in it, but then I think that some Kerry supporters voted for Clark in this poll just to try and defeat Dean in a DU poll.

[Upfront]

57. Dean &Clark

I think it will come down to Dean and Clark, and I am not intending to slight any other choice.

[Eloriel]

54. True about Gephardt

I was moved by his explanation of his vote that I saw over the weekend. He's not "there" yet with me, since I believe that they could have / should have and probably did know as much as we here at DU did prior to the vote, but he's a small step closer than anyone else.

Eloriel

[JVS]

68. What did Gephardt say?

I don't have a TV so I miss a lot of these things. I am trying to decide between Dean, Kucinich and Gephardt at this point and I've been interested in finding out what Gephardt has to say about his support of war.

[Starpass]

29. Is it hatred to express opinions???

I'm a realist. I don't support Dean because I don't think he can win or even come close to it in the general election. I don't want to nominate a homecoming queen candiate who can't go to the dance and win the crown. Therefore, I can't come here and do the Dean "wave". I'm trying to find someone these general election voters might support. We are viewed as "weak" on the "security/protection" crap that Bush has drummed up into national hysteria. You don't calm the hysteria by saying "I'm anti-war". They are looking for another security blanket if they are going to dessert Bush and vote Dem. The only two who have the damned "military" security blanket to stand and spit in Bush's face are Kerry and Clark. Thus, yes, I'll push for them here and explain why each and every time. If one doesn't think their one-legged kid can run the mile in the Olympics, do they hate the kid or are they just realistic???? Your a great spokesman for the Dem Party, Howard; but even in the very politically knowledgeable Nam times when the people hated the war, McGovern got killed. They don't hate this war even if they are growing tired of it. And like it or not, that is the audience we have to play to. I mean, Nadar sounds great and can get people all whipped up; but then we count his votes and they barely register. I don't want this to happen to this party. There is too damn much at stake.

[Malikshah]

31. PURE & SIMPLE

To summarize--

1)He's an outsider (like Janet Reno in Florida--my state)
He doesn't play their game their way with their toys
Some DU'ers have a very similar mindset as their avowed enemies--that is we must all agree on the same thing the same way
The far-right are better at it than us. We actually think for ourselves.

2)Dean scares people because he's doing something new and defies easy categorization--the fact that he's not easily labeled means people can ascribe any label to him to see if it sticks.

3) People from all sides don't know their political history.
How often have true insiders been elected? Not very...

[TreasonousBastard]

34. You think you got troubles...

just wait till a Sharpton supporter shows up.

I agree with whatsisname-- it's all in good fun. I don't like Lieberman all that much, but he's got a better environmental record than Dean, who seems to have one of the worst in this crew. None of these guys is what I want to see with criminal justice and a few other things. I like a lot of what Kucinich says, but I think he'll be destroyed by the GOP propaganda machine like Dukakis was. I've got vague doubts in the back of my mind just who may or may not actually be up to the job, but I'll keep that to myself for now.

So it goes-- none of these people is perfect, but someone's gonna get the nod next year, and even if it's Lieberman, I'm gonna make it my business to vote for him. And so will most of the Lieberman bashers. Or Dean bashers, or Kerry bashers if their guy doesn't get the nod. We all know who the real enemy is.

You make good points, but everyone with a favorite candidate just has to take the mudslinging-- it ain't gonna go away, and it's gonna get a lot worse in the general election. Why should we be more civil here than the campaign ads out there? It would be nice, but unrealistic.

Consider this as "practice." For the past hundred years or so the Democratic party has been fighting itself as much as it's been fighting Republicans. Always catfights and internal battling, and now that the Dixiecrats have shown their true colors and mostly turned Republican, the tone of many of these fights has changed, but not by all that much.

(Infighting and eating our own-- we have proud traditions to uphold!)

hehe-- you should live in my county where we have THREE Democratic parties, and yet another one just across the county line. Love them primary battles, we do. (What's a "general election"?)

[metisnation]

35. Dean

has my vote he locked it in when he took a stance against Iraq when all the other dittoheads were agreeing with bush. No hate here!

Go DEAN!

[wellstone_democrat]

36. Because he is not Lieberman

Lieberman, oh Lieberman my love....

[billbuckhead]

37. Dean's a whore for the NRA.

I'll never vote for him.

[IndianaGreen]

40. I don't recall seeing Dean's picture in the American Rifleman?

Nor do I remember getting any NRA mailings telling me what a great whore Dean was.

Dean's position on gun registration is a very much in the Democratic mainstrean.

It is true that Dean does not endorse the radical agenda of the ban-all-guns cult, but neither do all the other Democratic candidates for President.

Did you know that not all members of the NRA support the rightwing political agenda of Wayne LaPierre?

Did you know that the right to bear arms is one of your civil liberties, right alongside free speech?

Did you know that at a historical time like this, that we should be arming ourselves for, as Iraq has shown, an armed citizenry is the last bastion of freedom?

[flyingfish]

44. Dean A rating from the NRA

Only way to get that is to bend over for bubba(or Wayne).

[mantis]

50. oh come on

now....a whore? Because he is a member?

So if you own a gun or a member of the NRA
you're a whore?

[dajabr]

53. Not really...

Gun Legislation: The "A" rating that Dean has received from the NRA is chilling, but it has to be taken in context. As Lance Bukoff points out, "the NRA rating system is actually rather 'passive' in its assessment of politicians. Put simply but accurately, an 'A' rating is 'earned' by not voting for or promoting any laws which would restrict gun ownership. Dean observes that Vermont is not NYC or LA or Philadelphia. Vermont is a state where gun violence does not occur in any way significant enough to warrant restrictive gun control laws, unless you take the deer's point of view, of course. So he says Vermont does not need them, and he did not sign any, and he did not promote any as a governor, and as a consequence he gets an 'A' rating from the NRA, but not because he shares a duck blind with NRA members. He goes further. He says he supports the Brady bill, he supports the assault gun ban, and he supports closing the gun show sale loopholes. And he also tells voters in states like New York, 'We don't need gun control laws in Vermont, but you probably do, and if that's the case you should make them.'"

More: http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16592

[Eloriel]

58. Never? Not even as the party's nominee?

And people get SLAUGHTERED here because they say they won't vote for any of the warmongers.

Can we say double standards on DU?

Eloriel

[HalfManHalfBiscuit]

39. I think it because he is a "small person"

We just can't have anyone under 5 feet tall in the Whitehouse.

[JVS]

72. He's not that short.

It is sad to hear that your prejudice against the short would have kept both of my grandmothers from being president. I'm just glad that they aren't alive today so they don't have to face such vile bigotry.

[wheresthemind]

41. Its not just Dean...

I say it time and time again... everyone gets ripped in all the same ways.

I try to avoid it, I try and discourage it, but it still happens too all of us no matter who we support. No one is safe!

Hell I think even the undecided get flamed sometimes!

[BigBigBear]

42. I don't hate Dean

at all. I think he's right on many issuee I care about. I think he's intelligent and driven. I like his grassroots campaign. I think he'd make a great president.

I just think the Rove machine will squash him like a grape.

If he could swallow his proud, running as Clark's VP would seal the deal. But it'd never happen.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

80. I hope Clark wouldn't pick Dean, he should pick Kucinich or Gephardt

Clark is strong on defense and he criticized the illegal invasion of Iraq, just like Dean is. We don't want a "anti-Iraq War" ticket. Since Clark hasn't really pushed a progressive economic program, he should pick Kucinich or Gephardt to solidify the base of the party. Democrats are strong on defense and strong on jobs and the economy.

The worst thing is for Clark to come out as pro-NAFTA (Lite or not) and pick another NAFTA-Lite candidate like Kerry or Dean as VP. It's going to be hard for a general to win a Democratic primary, if he can prove himself on the economy, he has a shot.

If Clark wins the primary, getting rid of Bush becomes a certainty, as long as the base doesn't defect and the Greens don't take 3%.

[flyingfish]

43. Dean's fifteen minutes of fame are over

when Clark enters the race.

[w13rd0]

45. The clear animosity of people like you...

...really raises my levels of suspicion about a man who would otherwise be a fine candidate. I see no problem with my making that statement, as I've seen plenty say similiar things based on their assessment of "dean fanatics".

[mantis]

48. Well I'm

a Clark guy also and think he will win
if he enters.

But to say "15 minutes of fame" is kind of
silly. More like 15 months of fame.

[Kanola]

84. Really???

I have been hearing Dean's fifteen minutes are up for about three months now from various news pundits. Dean keeps surprising them by raising more money. This fifteen minutes are up statement is tired. Send it to bed.

[mantis]

46. OH HERE

we go again.

Doesn't matter. Clark will be the candidate.

[tjdee]

49. Oh for pete's sake.

:nopity:

Try liking Lieberman around DU and see how much 'hatred' you get a look at.

Dean is the most supported here, he's going to get the most attention *and* derision/criticism/whatever. If Clark (for example) manages to surpass him at DU for whatever reason, I guarantee you that it'll be his turn. In fact, all candidates get their share, but there are more Dean people to say "BASHER BASHER" than there are Edwards supporters, for example.

What I find particularly interesting is the fact that even you, CMT, were found to be wanting in your Dean support, in the thread you started, by another Dean supporter!

[CMT]

55. fair point

yes, I would say that Dean is the most supported but also the most despised probably because he is the front runner. Do I regret the title of this post--"hate" probably, but not really the contents.

[WilliamPitt]

51. If Dean and his supporters can't survive the 'hatred' on DU

then I suggest Dean quit and his supporters take up embroidery or stamp collection or relentless masturbation as a hobby. You think this is hate here? Feh. This is the game.

For what it's worth, I'm cheering the man all the way. I am glad he has scared the shit out of Kerry, the guy I am pulling for. Nothing but a good thing. This kind of self-pity crap is sad and sorry to behold, though.

Spend a day on usenet and understand what online hate is all about. This is a mouse fart by comparison.

[acerbic]

56. Umm... is this still supposed to be Democratic Underground

...or Attack-Democrats-With-Freepiest-Possible-Propaganda Underground?

You think this is hate here? Feh. This is the game.

So what if this is the game: why the funk give free points to the opposing side?????????????

[WilliamPitt]

59. Because maybe your 'free points' are, on occasion,

issues worthy of discussion. This still a discussion board, right? We can discuss Kerry's weakness with the base, or Clark's questionable progressivity, or Kucinich's chances in the primaries, or Graham's busted ticker, or Sharpton's hair, or Edwards' utter lack of foreign policy experience, or Lieberman's lips pressed firmly against Bush's ass...but we can't discuss Dean?

I musta missed the memo.

[CMT]

61. No

I don't think anyone wants to limit debate. Just a question why some people seem to dislike (a better word than hate) Dean so much. He certainly isn't the most liberal candidate in the race but he seems to generate such passion on both sides. With some he is like the second coming of either Christ or Hitler. My own point of view is that supporters of other candidates are frustrated by the attention he has gotten--which I might be if the shoe were on the other foot--and it might be when Gen. Clark does enter the race. I think he will be a force to be reckoned with.

[WilliamPitt]

62. It is never ever ever a bad thing

to have a candidate that makes people nuts.

[acerbic]

63. On occasion they indeed are, but on many occasions they are NOT

Is somebody saying that legitimate issues shouldn't be discussed? Who? Where? When? It seemed to me that this thread was not about discussing issues but about hatred. I can tell the difference quite easily. Can't you? See e.g.

"The weasle face, and the chipmunk eating habits. Not to mention the compulsive lying"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=188538&mesg_id=188701&page=

and tell what you think: are those "issues worthy of discussion" in your opinion?

[WilliamPitt]

65. That's just silly garbage

and should be ignored as such. BTW, you saw that this fellow had 'Clark' in his name? That, my friend, is the competition. You were expecting hugs, maybe?

No hugs. Politics is a long shallow trench where the whores run free and good men die like dogs. Deal.

[acerbic]

67. Repeating the question:

Is THIS SITE still supposed to be Democratic Underground or Attack-Democrats-With-Freepiest-Possible-Propaganda Underground?

BTW, you saw that this fellow had 'Clark' in his name? That, my friend, is the competition. You were expecting hugs, maybe?

I would indeed fully expect attacks like that... from e.g. freakrepugnant.con.

[WilliamPitt]

69. Repeating the statement

Politics is a long shallow trench where the whores run free and good men die like dogs. You either buy some hip waders and slog on through, or you swallow shit and die. Period. End. Fini.

If some Clark supporter spam has you so riled, wait until the real liars come out of the woodwork.

I am also wondering how you would reformat the forum to keep threads like this from coming up? There is an alert button.

[acerbic]

73. Huhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh??????????????????????????

There is an alert button.

Well try to guess what's my point... the alert button doesn't work when the freepshit is being flung against the candidates. Here's a rerun of what I've said before:

I don't quite understand why the normal DU rules can't be applied even now to the discussion about the candidates, to keep it civil and less gratifying to lurking (or participating) freeps. It's not like all criticism of Democrats has ever been prohibited: if somebody e.g. didn't like Clinton because of NAFTA or the welfare reform, it could be discussed, but if you just spammed wingnut propaganda shyte from Liesmax or Moonie Times and ranted about "Clinton body count" or other freeper stuff, you'd probably be banned pretty quickly.

Right now outright lies, absurd exaggerations and spams from wingnut sources can be repeated freely if it's about the candidates. Why couldn't that kind of thing still be stopped but criticism based on at least some measure of reality still be allowed, just as before?

[WilliamPitt]

75. Perhaps because

the mods would not only have to be wrestling ring refs, but would also have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of what is and is not a slander, including nuance and trustworthy reference sites, etc. in order to do what you'd like them to do. Smart money has "They're already damn busy" at 2-1 and pick 'em.

[acerbic]

76. There would be quite a simple solution to that problem

the mods would not only have to be wrestling ring refs, but would also have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of what is and is not a slander, including nuance and trustworthy reference sites, etc. in order to do what you'd like them to do.

Just ban those who post almost nothing but clearly freepy attacks against candidate(s): end of workload. I know that e.g. Liesmax.con is not a "trustworthy reference site": does that mean that I have encyclopedic knowledge? :evilgrin:

[WilliamPitt]

78. It's more than that

and I'm pretty sure you know it. Someone in another thread posted something about Clark having an explosive temper. True? False? Maybe? Should a mod have to go flail around to find out if this is true?

[dajabr]

83. Will, maybe I'm wrong on this...

And I'll butt out poste haste, but don't you and the other poster have the same concern he to some extent?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=120&topic_id=2321

It's late, so maybe I'm missing the nuance of your current discussion?

[WilliamPitt]

85. Certainly

We ain't mad...at least, I ain't mad. I think we are disagreeing about which road to take to the same destination.

[dajabr]

88. Have the Mods/Admins deserted us?

Seriously. Does it concern you that you have not gotten an answer to your question that was posed this afternoon? Check the threads there. When was the last time any mod/admin answered a question.

Do you see what I see? What's going on? Am I being paranoid?

[WilliamPitt]

89. That

is one of the things I was trying to find out down there. I alerted an attack on me today, and it was promptly removed, so they are definitely around. But it has been like the Wild West around here lately, and that concerns me.

[Malikshah]

60. Uh, I don't think Dean and staff are yellowing their knickers over this...

Someone who wore a bulletproof vest during his tenure as governor (re: Civil Unions)--according to the bios etc. will not be worried by this--

Trippi, from what I've read, is thick-skinned enough to handle all the slings and arrows.

The staff will handle it as long as they need to or can (in terms of whether or not they make it through to the nomination)

As someone who's backing the gov. as a political virgin so to speak--I think I know the reason why there are hand-wringers out there--mind you--this is just a hypothesis.

Many of Dean's supporters are first-timers like myself. I've never gotten involved in a campaign before, pinned my heart, as it were, to a candidate, beyond the occasional political banter and in the voting booth. What's got a number of other candidates loosening their bowels is the fact that Dean has been able to garner so much support from "first-timers."

It's a double-edged sword for Dean, though. Many first-timers are enamoured with the candidate they choose and like a first love get crushed when the first hint of "reality" seeps in. Just go over to www.blogforamerica.com and see the wailing, gnashing of teeth, and wearing of sackcloth that has gone on over the last few days concerning the use of public funds, whether Dean eats too many donuts, and what he should say about topic "x" (you fill in the blank)

This is not an attack, by the way--just an observation from one who's taken part in it and still supports Gov. HoHo --

Actually--it's refreshing--like seeing young cubs finding their political legs in some cases. Reality will set in as the weeks go by--the task of the campaign is to slowly but surely educated their base that political reality is not always pretty -- even the reality from those you support.

To continue the "first-timer," first-love motif one step further.

It's similar to when you are having a fight with a spouse/significant other/child. In these situations, it's often been said. "I still love you--but I don't like you very much at this moment"

BTW-- loved your talk--saw it on C-span reruns the other day. That at the MFSO should be required viewing for the US

Well--if y'all have gotten this far w/o putting me on ignore-- Go Dean! :)

[WilliamPitt]

64. The first-time-love phenomenon

is as cogent an assessment as I've read. Again, nothing but a good thing. Thanks.

[snyttri]

52. Deanophobia

I do not hate, but fear Dean. I like him and his stands on most issues, but it looks to me like he can win the nomination but can't get through the job interview to win the job.

[ErasureAcer]

70. I don't trust the man...

I did at first, back in spring, but really...now that I look at the guy beyond his disapproval of the Iraq war....I see him as a wannabe Used Car Salesman...he's ALWAYS trying to sell himself...and by doing so, I think he bends the truth in many ways...just like a used car salesman. This can be seen on his stances on social security, the pentagon and other topics. He won't commit to a definite answer...and he somehow gathers supporters by doing this? Unbelievable.

Furthermore, after my lack of trust...I simply don't like his issues. He gives states to much leniancy on gay rights for example. The whole gay marriage should be a NATIONAL issue for it is my belief...that "all men(and women) are created equal" in this country. That means not discriminating against who can and can not get married. I know there are gay churches out there...to discriminate and not recognize marriages that were to be held there but to recognize other sects of religions is downright WRONG! This totally goes against the first amendment(and I'm sure some others) of the constitution...and therefore this is a NATIONAL ISSUE.

I see Dean as a coward who doesn't tell people the whole truth, a man who is running a campaign about getting elected and not on what really matters, the truth on the issues.

I won't vote for Dean if he is nominated. Why? Because he simply doesn't change much of anything. I can't vote for a man who supports the death penalty. I can't vote for a man who doesn't want to cut the pentagon budget one cent. I can't vote for a man who claims he's not even "liberal".

Truly, I think America has once again been brainwashed into eating whatever is fed to them. Do people even take a look at the issues anymore or is this all just about who can raise the most money and dilute the truth the best?

Dean doesn't deserve my vote or anyone else's as far as I'm concerned. Kucinich has the vision America needs...Dean has friends in the used car business giving him tips.

[WilliamPitt]

71. "he's ALWAYS trying to sell himself." You gotta be FUCKIN' kidding me.

Man, I am starting to be able to smell total political rookies at twenty paces around here.

He's always trying to sell himself? Holy fucking shit on a stick, do you mean to say he is a POLITICIAN running for office? Dread the thunderfucking thought!!! Oh me, oh my, I wish none of the Democratic politicians would SELL THEMSELVES. That's just dirty, filthy, wrong, eeeeeeevil.

Man. Man o man.

Guess what, hero. Kucinich is the exact same. He sells himself wherever he goes. I've seen it with my own eyes several times. He is a POLITICIAN.

Gad zooks.

[ErasureAcer]

86. Different between deliberately doing it and being who you are...

Of course, the candidates are going to say why you should vote for them and garner as much support as they can. However, there is a difference in how people go about this. Dean always seems to be the one out there criticizing, putting others down...and at times LYING(AFL-CIO Debate) to make himself look better and put the spotlight back on himself. Kucinich, attacks Dean as well, and rightfully so...but he does it in a "vision" esque way...plain and simple he tells the truth and has a stance on the issues. Instead, Dean and many of the other democratic candidates bend around this truth...they say they're against whatever and really don't give a concrete answer on what they would to change it...or at other times don't even answer the question that is given to them...but relate it to something else and answer a totally different question. For instance, Dean said something to the extent of..."I'm against cutting the pentagon as long as we're fighting the war on terrorism." Well why doesn't the asshole carsalesman just come out and say he's against cutting the pentagon budget...because the "war on terrorism" is going to go on forever...or at least during the next 8 years. Truly, now...it is bending the truth...does dean really fucking believe the war on terrorism is going to end in his presidency? Give me a break, people will continue to hate america and until america changes...and actually cuts its pentagon(along with many other changes that need to be made). Dean is just more fuel to the fire that makes America the most hated nation on the planet. So yeah, Kucinich might promote himself and his ideas but he does it in an honest way...with straightforward answers...not crappy slogans like "I represent the Democratic wing of the Democratic party"...give me a fucking break Dean...you said you weren't even a liberal. This doublespeak is BAD...and which has landed him as a carsalesman in my book...always trying to say whatever the audience wants to hear...and not the truth and his vision(if he has one).

GET THE HELL OUT OF HERE DEAN...I'm not falling for your fucking lies.

[WilliamPitt]

87. "a 'vision' esque way"

LOL. You're a hoot, you are.

[Zuni]

94. exactly---a politician is like a used car salesman or an actor

Political campaigning is a show. An politician is an actor who tries to show he is 'joe everyman for all seasons' as well as a seasoned politico. A politician's campaign--kissing babies, shaking hands, posing for photos, pretending to be interested in what an Iowa pig farmer has to say is PART OF THE JOB.

[ErasureAcer]

98. As I said before...there is a difference between lying and actually caring

lying to the people...as Dean has done so often telling contradictory stories to whomever he is speaking to

or

actually caring about the future of America...which I think Kucinich amplifies when he speaks.

[dajabr]

74. Do you see no problem in Kucinich's abortion flip-flop?

Do you give him a pass on that?

Just asking, because that's a big one for me. And I know where Dean has been and will be on that issue.

[ErasureAcer]

77. He flip flopped before running for President

he set his stances in stone then...and has kept with them...and will keep with them.

For Dean, you can't even get the guy to give you an honest, straight forward answer on the Pentagon or Social Security or this finance situation that was just in the news the past couple of days.

Believe it or not, but there is a big difference...between wabbling on issues during a run for president and making a decision before running for president and sticking with it.

I know where Kucinich stands on the issues. Dean has shown his word can't be taken for what he actually means, because he might change his mind later.

As I said before, Kucinich has a vision...Dean can't be trusted.

[dajabr]

81. That's your right, of course...

I just think you're being hard on Dean - And going easy on Kucinich on a big issue. I'm not saying you shouldn't trust his change, just in light of that you could consider not being so harsh on Dean.

I'm not aware of Dean reversing himself on any positions he held at the time he began his run? Maybe before...but not after.

[Ein]

79. Dean pisses me off.

He is Centrist. There is a radical right wing admin in office, why the hell should we put a centrist in, so there can be a more radical right winger in 4-8 years. I DONT THINK WE NEED THAT MAN.

Fuck electibility, its superficial bullshit, Bush was supposedly eleceted, hah.

edit: I'm suspicious of anyone that appears so heavily in the RW media and has such a huge proportional following.

[poskonig]

82. Liberal Self-hate.

Face it: being persecuted gives many a sense of purpose.

If we get a president who will repeal the gestapo sections of the patriot act, get pieces for universal health care in place, restore America's respect in the world, repeal the Bush tax cuts, blah blah blah we will actually be getting things done instead of being a mob of righteous losers.

[ErasureAcer]

91. Some reasons why the world doesn't respect us

we outspend the world combined on "defense"(offense)
we support capital punishment
we put money and corporations infront of the environment
we train terrorists with the school of americas yet say we're "against terrorism"
we dictate the whole Israel/Palestine situation and other global conflicts through the UN and the power of "veto" votes as well as giving Israel billions of dollars in aid, while sending palestinians chump change in comparisson
we're the worlds most prosperous nation but hardly do enough in fighting world diseases(with better technology to find cures to that of aid to those infected) that affect us all

I think I am the best person for President to get rid of these bad things about America, but since I'm not running...I'm supporting Dennis Kucinich to do the job of regaining our respect amongst the ENTIRE world, he is the only one who can do it.

[poskonig]

93. Why is outspending other nations in defense a cause?

I do not approve of the rampant waste, fraud, and abuse that occurs in the Pentagon at a mass scale. However, how does waste local to the national level become of a cause for anti-American sentiment? Having a robust military does not cause hatred of America. However, political assassinations, rigging other people's elections, unilateral invasions, et cetera, certainly do certainly piss off other states.

[ErasureAcer]

100. For it is the money designated to the pentagon that screams EMPIRE!!!!!!!!

And making the rest of the world fearful and thus leading to animosity towards America and Americans for letting the government support such treachery.

If we didn't have a 400 billion dollar investment in empire the world would look at us in a different light. My point is legit.

[TreasonousBastard]

102. Dunno if he actually will...

push for repeal of sections of the Patriot Act. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression he packed Vermont with pro-prosecution judges and made a number of statements about how the system was stacked toward defendants and he intended to rectify that by attempting to reduce appeals and tighten rules of evidence. Sounds a lot like your typical rightwing law&order type.

Between his wingnut law&order stance and his mediocre environmental record, I can't put him on top of the current list, but I'll still vote for him if he gets the nod. Can't be worse on any account than what we've got.

I just don't get the religious fervor over him that some people have, and the occasional refusal to admit that there are some other decent candidates out there. Or the denial over him not being the progressive messiah.




.

[VoteClark]

90. Dean reminds me of a used car salesman

He does honestly. He even looks like one I know.

I mean, to tell you the truth, his interview on Meet the Press with Tim Russert really showed me that.

For example: His stating the he could not serve in Vietnam for an unfused back problem. He says it hurts his back and leg to get in and out of his car.

Yet he can go on a 3 month skiing trip, pound concrete, and hike the entire length of Vermont. I can't buy that. It makes me really suspectious. Even if all those things that he said were true, he should have lied to try to get into the military, or at least pretend to be in pain for a few months after a Y3 Deferment.

I also don't buy his "pro-gay" attitude. I still can't figure out where he stands on this issue.

He is not humble either, and lies about the other candidates, and switched his postions. Just got a problem with it.

If Dean was for the Death Penality, totally pro-gun, and just admitted that he was against the war and dodged the draft intentionally, I would have more respect for him, although I would not vote for him because of his stance on the issues.

But he honestly sounds like a used car salesman. He sounds and looks like the guy that once sold me a lemmon of a car when I was 20, and didn't know what I was doing.

Call it instinct, but I don't like the guy for his past and present conflicts in his positons. It bothers me.

:kick:
J4Clark

[ErasureAcer]

92. did you read my post #70?

Or are we like long lost brothers with the same type of thinking?

He has a used carsalesman personality. Glad I'm not the only one here who sees it. :)

[VoteClark]

95. We probably are not the only one

:)

[WilliamPitt]

96. Is there an echo in here?

:eyes:

[poskonig]

97. Which is the only state in the union with civil unions?

Hint: Vermont.

In addition--

Dean's position on the death penalty changed to a moderate pro-death penalty position during his executive experience.

Dean is also crystal clear about guns.

On the draft, why should he say something that isn't true? Just because someone named 'voteclark' on a meaningless internet forum says he should?

I'm sorry, but your reservations against Dean are extremely ticky-tack.

[ErasureAcer]

99. "Civil Unions" doesn't go far enough...gay marriage is constitutional!!!!!

yes, dean's state supports civil unions and is that better than nothing? of course it is. But Dean fails to see the big picture...that the first amendment clearly states "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" so lets see people are free to believe in whatever religion they want to believe in...even if this religion is some gay church.

great!

now let's look at the 14th amendment..."No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

So the 14th amendment says that no state can reject the first amendment and that no one can be denied "equal protection of the laws" which in fact...since only heterosexual marriage is acknowledged by our current government(s) this is infact a violation of people's first amendment right to practice their religion in full force as well, and a violation of the 14th amendment "equal protection" of laws(which includes the first amendment and freedom of practicing ones' religion which includes gay marriage if whichever gay church endorses gay marriage...which they would).

Simply, the American government has no right to acknowledge "religious" marriages in the first place(first amendment)...and if they do decide to recognize marriage...they must do so with "equality" and that includes same sex marriage, race, age, or whatever else.

So as Governor of Vermont...Howard Dean didn't even uphold the constitution and neither did any other governor or legislature. They all suck.

Kucinich is fighting for gay marriage because he knows it is the gay communities' right!

The first and fourteenth amendments uphold gay marriage. And if heterosexual marriage is recognized...it is only equal to recognize gay marriage as well.

Any law claiming "heterosexual marriage, a man and a woman, will only be recognized" is a complete violation of the first amendment. Dean is a moron for not seeing this.