Time to Drop Kick Governor Davis outta office!

[VoteClark]

Serious as a heart attack. Davis needs to go, get outta there like yesterday.

Davis is going to leave the Democratic Party high and dry for personal gain and hand the state over to the Republicans.

Democrats need to demand Davis resign or join with the Republicans to impeach him if he refuses.

How do you have a 20% approval rating in a state that votes 66% Democratic? By being an idiot and not running your state. Nixon is better liked in that state then Davis. Mike Tyson would be a favorite over him.

The way to solve this problem is to have Davis out of office. Allow Bustamante take over as Governor. With Davis gone, Bustamante can get settled into office. Nobody is going to vote for the recall when Davis is out of office and switch governors for the sake of switching Governors again.

With Davis gone, and Bustamante the new Governor, that would be the third governor in four months if they voted for the recall. Californians will not got for that.

More then 50% of the people would oppose the recall if Davis is gone. They want Davis out. I say give them Davis, who messed up himself, and save the party and California.

Why lose everything for Davis, he doesn't care about us or the party, he cares only about himself. The state and party is more important than adding three more years to the political career of one unpopular man that even most Democrats can't stand.

Boot Davis, save the party and the state for the Repukes.

:kick:
J4Clark

[jiacinto]

1. Well

Nixon grew up in Orange County. He is from Yorba Linda.

[mantis]

2. I think

I AGREE....cya Davis. Hello CRUZ.

[mitchtv]

3. My first big reason to not support Clark

thank you. BTW Davis has been good for me and Gay people all over the State . I wil not follow the herd . As a Union man I resent the thought. My guess is that if clark doen't run or misses the nod , you will vote GOP?

[shanti]

37. well, as a union member as well

davis has not been good to me! guess it depends upon where that money is coming from ;-), doesn't it?

[mitchtv]

167. remember your * hr day? say goodbye

.

[shance]

65. Thanks Mitchtv****Voteclark seems to know little about the fact

Gray Davis won FAIR and SQUARE and has done NOTHING to invite a recall, other than to do his job.

A fellow Californian here.

Perhaps voteclark is a freep or something with all his threads that seem to ignite some type of division.

Seems obvious he knows nothing about the ethical factors playing within this bogus recall, that and/or doesnt care about California. If he did, he would NOT be attacking the govenor who won fair and square and has given no reasonable answer as to why Davis should resign.

BTW, Governor Gray Davis is also has the best record of ANY governor regarding a Womans right to choose, which is my biggest issue.

[jeter]

73. EXACTLY, Davis DOES NOTHING

except line his own pockets.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

75. Excuse me the burden of proof is on you for that one

He raises funds for campaigns. Where is he lining his own pockets? That quite a different accusation.

[Classical_Liberal]

81. Did Davis reregulate the Energy sector?

Hell no, he saved them from bankrupcy which is why California is so in debt.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

136. HE DIDN'T HAVE THAT OPTION!!!

To do so would mean to seize PROPERTY outside of his and the state's authority.

How many times has this already been posted and addressed????

[shance]

152. Showing Freeper colors Jeter?

Your post had no purpose.

[tom_paine]

156. Had that same feeling about ol' Jeter myself

Repeatedly. Often. The stench is mind-boggling.

[Oracle]

163. And Cruz won't...don't me fucking laugh!!!

[Boreas]

174. Correct

If we don't support Davis in this attempted coup d'etat no Democrat anywhere is safe. (Five percent of California voters will vote yes for the mother ship to return from outer space before Halloween, as well as recall any elected official.)

I do not want to have fair weather friends like VoteClark on my side, that's for sure.

[gulliver]

121. Don't assume VoteClark represents Clark

He (VoteClark) makes a lot of ridiculous posts like this one, but that has nothing to do with Clark. VC may even be against Clark and wanting to tar Clark by association with VC's dumb ideas.

Hey VC, did you send in your bag of pretzels yet? I thought that was a real winner, the idea of telling all DUers to send a bag of pretzels to Bush at the White House. You didn't say you were actually going to do it yourself, though, until called on it. Then you said you would. Not a bright idea, but hey, if you can recommend that DUers do it... Two days and counting.

[tom_paine]

144. mitch, I think Mr Vote4Clarke is gong to vote GOP in either case

Get it?

[cally]

4. Please get your facts correct

If Davis resigns, the recall continues against Cruz Bustamante. Then Dems are really screwed.

There is also the need to defend election results against the repukes who are trying to subvert an election. Just like Repukes planned the impeachment the moment Clinton took office, the repukes planned the recall within days of the election.

Please, these type of posts just infuriate and depress those of us in California trying to prevent the hostile takeover. We need all the support we can get.

[VoteClark]

12. Defending a Recall against Bustamante is harder than Davis?

I don't think so. Democrats and independants will not vote for the recall. You don't get it do you? The reason the recall is happening is because of Davis. People don't want Bustamante out of office, they want Davis out of office.

Bustamante would not lose a recall election. People will not vote for it. Thus Bustamante will stay in office. Especially if he is already settled into office. They will not keep uprooting governors.

Futher, Bustamante can legally say on the ballot. So even if he did lose the recall, Bustamante could still win the election, giving him twice the chance to win.

Arnold does not have enough support to get people to get a recall. Davis is the driving force behing the recall effort.

:kick:
J4Clark

[cally]

18. This recall is not about Davis!!!

It's about the Repukes trying to put in a Repuke so that they put Cali into play for the Presidential race. Repukes can't win in a real election, so they try their shenanigans. Haven't you read any of the myriad of editorials about how Davis is not to blame for the problems Cali is having.

[VoteClark]

21. You want to be right on principle and go ahead a lose the state?

Give me a break. We have to win the recall. The best way to do that is to suck the air out from the fire. Davis is the one that is losing in the polls. It doesn't matter if we like, or dislike the recall. Davis is going to be recalled, right or wrong, it is going to happen.

It doesn't matter the reasons or motives behind it. It is going to happen. Stop ignoring that fact. The best thing to do is to stop the Repukes from taking the state. They WILL take the state if Davis stays in office.

:kick:
J4Clark

[cally]

27. It is not a fact that Davis will lose the recall

Give it time and let the activists try to turn this thing around. It is way to early to giveup in defeat yet. If you live in Cali, have you volunteered or donated? I want a dem to stay in office and to turn this around.

I also believe in my state.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

30. Where do you live??? Just curious

[cally]

32. I don't think you were asking me,

but I live in Marin. Time for a joke, I know. B-)

[Cheswick2.0]

148. no, surely we don't want to defend democracy </sarcasm>

Rebublicans must take what they can't win...disgusting

[Classical_Liberal]

83. Davis wouldn't be vulnerable if it was just repukes.

. Like it or not this is part of Californias constitution and the people have a perfect right to do it. It has been apart of it since the Depression. Davis is vulnerable because he is unpopular.

[Classical_Liberal]

84. He is to blame for not stoping the rape of Califonia

He could have let Enron die, and purchased the utilities back. He bailed them out instead. He is to blame for his inaction.

[Oracle]

165. You know nothing of what you speak!!!!

California has a huge economy, the world's fifth largest economy, so when were in the red it's going to be by a lot...but nowhere even close to where Bush’s deficit is in the US.

Enron bled our state for billions and billions of dollars, when Gray Davis asked Cheney and the Federal government to put a cap on what the gouging Enron could charge...Bush, Cheney and the boys told Davis to fuck off, they knew Davis would end up taking the heat and they had a good laugh.

The huge dot.com bust hurt California harder than anywhere else...that was not Davis's fault.

The wars in Afghanistan & Iraq has taken it's toll on California, as Bush tells us there's no money left for the states, it's needed for the war on terrorism.

The huge tax cuts by Bush didn't help, all states lost revenue, California with it's large industrial base, the unfair tax cuts were a huge blow.

And to top it off in the past two and a half years, we are in a Bush recession...California has had to try balance the budget during a recession, especially after the wealth and prosperity all state enjoyed during the eight Clinton years.

Sixteen straight years of Republican Governorship previously sure didn’t help. And Davis had no problem with the budget his first two years as Governor while Clinton was President. Republicans want to make California hurt and pay for being so Democrat. As well as they want to get the state back and are going to steal it back with their never ending buckets of money.

The White House was behind this recall...in the shadows...and they didn't like the outcome of Democrat Davis winning by 5 1/2 points just last November when the people elected Davis.

So the Republicans have the money to change the election and pay for a recall...They want a Republican Governor for Bush to win CA in 2004. So he can win by a landslide and call it a mandate, then do as he chooses.

[FredScuttle]

68. you are woefully misinformed....

Even though it's too late to stop the recall, let's assume Davis quit. If Bustamente suceeds him as governor, he gives up his Lt. Gov. seat and must run only on the 1st question, not the 2nd. Or do you think we hand both seats of executive authority to the same person in California?

Like a previous poster advised, please check your facts before speaking...it is disgraceful ignorance like yours that results in skewed polls and this anti-Davis climate in which the recall can flourish

[IndianaGreen]

15. The recall is a liberal idea!

It was made part of the California Constitution way back in 1911 as part of liberal reforms. The GOP is merely taken advantage of a Constitutional provision to exploit Davis's problems, some of which the GOP helped to create.

Suverting the election rings hollow when one is following the Constitution. This is not Bush v. Gore!

CALIFORNIA CONSTITUTION
ARTICLE 2 VOTING, INITIATIVE AND REFERENDUM, AND RECALL

SECTION 1. All political power is inherent in the people.
Government is instituted for their protection, security, and benefit,
and they have the right to alter or reform it when the public good
may require.

<snip>

SEC. 15. (a) An election to determine whether to recall an officer
and, if appropriate, to elect a successor shall be called by the
Governor and held not less than 60 days nor more than 80 days from
the date of certification of sufficient signatures.

(b) A recall election may be conducted within 180 days from the
date of certification of sufficient signatures in order that the
election may be consolidated with the next regularly scheduled
election occurring wholly or partially within the same jurisdiction
in which the recall election is held, if the number of voters
eligible to vote at that next regularly scheduled election equal at
least 50 percent of all the voters eligible to vote at the recall
election.

(c) If the majority vote on the question is to recall, the officer
is removed and, if there is a candidate, the candidate who receives
a plurality is the successor. The officer may not be a candidate,
nor shall there be any candidacy for an office filled pursuant to
subdivision (d) of Section 16 of Article VI.

http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/.const/.article_2

[WilliamPitt]

17. Which therefore makes it a good idea?

Hm.

[IndianaGreen]

176. The recall provisions in the California Constitution

were enacted as a popular way to remove from office politicians that had come under the control of the railroad barons at the turn of the twentieth century. The fact that a crypto-nazi like Issa took advantage of this seldom used constitutional provision, with some help from the bumbling Davis, does not negate its liberal roots.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

22. Sorry IG. The recall is PART of the liberal construction rule

in California due to abuse of power by business during the last GUILDED AGE. It was never intended to be the tool of the ultra wealthy to overthrow legitimate governors making hard choices.

There is NOTHING liberal about this recall. One needs to be HEAVY into recontextualization to even consider it so.

[IndianaGreen]

56. Will you risk everything on Gray Davis?

Will you risk the only realistic chance we have of having a Democratic governor in California?

Although I agree with everything that has been said by several DUers about the dirty politics, and the shameful role played by Darrell Issa, even the most optimistic person has to recognize that Gray Davis stands a very long shot of surviving the recall election.

Our differences are on the tactics. I think that the "Davis-or-nobody" strategy that is being pursued by the Davis people, and advocated by the likes of Terry McCauliff and Dianne Feinstein, is doomed to failure.

If you turn your backs on Bustamante now, out of some misguided belief that somehow Davis will survive the recall, you will have no one to blame but yourselves when a non-Democrat wins the plurality.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

58. I'm not turning my back on Bustamante to be certain

I am voting NO on the recall and FOR Bustamente. That is the intelligent thing to do since Bustamente is polling higher than Arnold.
That is the strategy that our local Dems and Dems statewide are betting on to survive the recall and maintain the governor's office.

Interestingly enough, 38 percent are against the recall even though Davis is polling at 20% approval...that is higher than Bustamante OR Arnold ...so there goes Democracy OUT the door since it is clear by those numbers that Davis has nearly TWICE the appeal of Arnold based on likely voters.


The only other point is Bustamente is polling TOO close to ARnold to be considered a shoe-in for the job so shooting his mouth off today and blaming the Davis camp since he is craving power wasn't too awful smart.

[Classical_Liberal]

87. We have all heard Macaulliff amd Feinstien say no-one should run

so he wasn't shooting his mouth off.

[Classical_Liberal]

86. Your exactly right IG. These are the same scolds that got after greens

for lack of pragmatism. I happen to agree that Nader and his followers lacked pragmatism but new democrats are clearly no better.

[IndianaGreen]

177. We are bashed when we stand on principle against the war

and we are bashed when we try to be pragmatic on the recall election.

Under normal conditions I wouldn't be a Bustamante supporter, particularly after he endorsed Lieberman and is chairing the Lieberman California campaign. However, Bustamante is the only Democrat that has a prayer of retaining the governorship in Democratic hands. We need California in 2004, and we also need someone that can address the needs of Californians better than the incumbent Governor.

The Davis v. Bustamante issue is this:

Bustamante has been thwarted in his fund raising efforts on account of Davis's operatives telling prospective donors to withhold contributing to Bustamante's campaign. This isssue was raised by Bustamante himself, not the GOP. Bustamante is the one that is saying vote "No" on recall, but vote "Yes" on Bustamante. The Davis people are saying vote "No" on recall, and the heck with the rest!

I am troubled that the specter of censorship is being raised by people that are favoring the purist "Davis-or-nobody" strategy, a strategy that fails to recognize that a substantial number of California Democrats want Davis out. The "Davis-or-nobody" strategy is based on the premise that people will hold their noses and vote for Davis rather than vote for one of the other candidates on the ballot. I think that some of you are underestimating the animus that Davis has generated among Democrats and independent voters alike.

No one is saying dump Davis. What we are saying is that Davis is not going to win the recall. His poll numbers keep going South, and they are not going to rebound! What we are saying is that the Davis people should not be telling potential Bustamante campaign donors to refrain from contributing money to Bustamante's "No" on recall, "Yes" on Cruz.

The only thing that can save Davis, by buying him more time to mend political fences, is if the ACLU succeeds in getting the federal courts to delay the recall election until March 2004.

[Classical_Liberal]

85. There is nothing liberal about Gray Davis

He bailed Enron out!

[catzies]

161. PROVE THAT, PLEASE

My memory of the events of spring/summer 2000 and Gray Davis/Enron/FERC is different.

IIRC, Davis went all the way to Washington to ask them to intervene and help turn the thing around, and Bush/Cheney told him to POUND SAND.

I Googled "Gray Davis Enron bailout" and I'm going through the links for proof of what you asseterd and can't find anything. Did you mean "Edison?" That's one of the two power companies here with the other one being PG&E.

[Classical_Liberal]

82. No the recall doesn't continue against Bisumante

It is only against davis. If Davis quit the recall would be a through as an issue.

[Booberdawg]

91. Aaaaaaaaagh!

That is NOT TRUE!

It is TOO LATE for Davis to resign. THE RECALL ISSUE IS A CERTAINTY, NO MATTER WHAT!

There are TWO WAYS for Democrats to win.
1)Vote NO on the recall issue. (Davis stays in office)
AND
2)Vote FOR Bustamante (in case the recall issue is lost)

Californians need to DO BOTH to insure Democratic success.

[Cheswick2.0]

151. you are wrong

get the facts.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

5. Freerepublic has to love titles like this thread on DU

Perhaps you can explain why although he has a 20% approval rating, 38% of the voters agre against the recall and as the other candidates campaign for higher taxes and more service cuts people will begin to see that there are tough choices ahead regardless of who takes or keeps office.

Perhaps you can tell me why with 38% against the recall (which is a higher margin than Bustamante OR Schwartzenegger) he should resign.

Bustamante taking office might just have the reverse effect. I say let the recall go through as it is. The only thing worse than the recall would be three governors in three months.

[WilliamPitt]

6. Just kill me

Am I insane, or is the right thing to do here to fight like goddam crazy wolverines to make sure the guy who WON THE ELECTION isn't removed from office just because some fatcat conservative can bankroll a coup?

This isn't about Davis. Go ahead and theow his ass out in 2004 with a better candidate IN THE PROPER FASHION. This recall is crap, and anyone who goes along with it at all is feeding themselves to the beast.

[proud patriot]

7. Exactly !

I like Ventura's football analogy of replaying the super bowl .

[Clete]

9. Will, I love what you say, but as a Californian

how exactly do we not go along with this? This is a huge state. They have taken over. We could be a country if we tried. They know this, yet exactly what do all of us do other than secede?

[WilliamPitt]

10. It immediately occurs to me

that people could/should/must vote against the recall on the first ballot, and then refuse to endorse another candidate on the second ballot. You're on for the ride, to be sure, but to hell with dancing to the tune. I would also repudiate any and all comments like the ones in the thread opener. Period.

[proud patriot]

20. My husband has vowed to vote no and not vote for a replacement

The political junkie in me is tearing at my soul over the vote
on the replacement ...

I'm so friggin conflicted ...

[WilliamPitt]

24. Seems like it's ripe for a conflict

What if a particular candidate gets more votes than the 'no recall' option, but the 'no recall' option beats the recall option? Chaos.

[Nazgul35]

130. cause that would be the smart thing to do...

right? because those pesky repugs will do the same thing....they are honorable after all.....

Why don't we all just switch to the repugs and save ourselves the trouble....for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If you do not vote on the second ballot...you are handing victory to the repugs with the most votes!!! Put a little thought into the process please!!!

Hey, here's a strategy....how's about not voting in the recall at all....that way you show everyone how much disdain you have for the process...only problem is...NO ONE WILL FRIGGIN KNOW!!!! Your governor will be Arnold....the repugs will control Cali (and it's electoral machines) in 2004...but at least you'll have made a point...a point in your own mind....

This is why the repugs laugh at us....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

33. Frankly I don't think the thread opener should be on DU

any more than "PROTEST HILLARY" threads were tolerated before the mid-terms. I don't see why we should do Rove's job for him but some Du'ers seem to think that isn't what they are doing.

BUT...you are NOT correct...the only way to keep the state is NO on the recall and YES on BUSTAMANTE...that way if the recall succeeds but the projected 38% against the recall vote for Bustamante, that is higher than Arnold's projected 22%.

[jeter]

76. Are you crazy Will?

Have you lost it? Davis is as unpopular as you can be in a Democratic state. 22%??? Not endorsing another candidate would be political suicide for Dems in California. Guess what: DAVIS WILL LOSE. Support for the recall is GROWING. I don't like Davis. I'll admit that. But to do what you suggest, we might as well just give Republicans the keys to the Governor's mansion.

[Classical_Liberal]

89. So Californians should except Davis or be cursed with a repuke

So much for pragmatism? If you believe that don't ever criticise the Naderites for their impracticality again.

[Booberdawg]

102. I don't agree

There are TWO opportunities for the Democrats to win

1)Vote NO to the recall (Davis stays in office)

AND

2)Vote FOR Bustamante (in case Vote #1 is lost)

It would be foolish not to ensure the chances of keeping a Democrat in office by refusing to vote for one in #2, in the event the recall vote is lost.

[shimmergal]

140. I agree.

Voting no on question 1 and refusing to vote on question 2 is _exactly_ like the fundies who push "absinence education" and refuse to allow a backup option like talking to kids about contraception. Impractical and likely to be ineffective.

[mitchtv]

171. welcome to the fight Will

but since We lost the Davis or Death battle it must be no on recall yes on bustamante. I can live with that. Davis will prevail

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

11. Dems have 1.3 million more voters than Repubs in Cali

Volunteering at your local Dem chapter to make calls and get out the vote is one way.

Dems control the Senate and assembly and all other statewide elected offices. The recall may be energizing the previously dead disorganized California Republicans but complacency and capitulation now will accomplish the same thing it did in 2000. A loss.

No amount of work towards compelling others to vote against the recall is too big NOR too small.

We must act.

[WilliamPitt]

13. It would also be helpful

to do whatever you can to see the predictions of a 6% voter turnout for the recall election proven to be grossly low.

[Clete]

16. Dammit NSMA I am doing the best I can.

In my area everybody who cares are old and gray. The rest of them are scrapping for a living, and the ones with property and money are guess whom??

[WilliamPitt]

19. Make sure they vote

Drive them to the polls.

[jeter]

77. ANOTHER THING

30% of those who signed the petition WERE DEMOCRATS. This guy is hated universally.

Personally, I think he is toast and Cruz will be Cali's next governor.

[Cheswick2.0]

172. he is universally hated in california?

bull....what party do you belong to?

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

25. The ones scrapping for a living will be the ones hardest hit

Arnold is taking aim at prop 13 which has locked in lower property taxes for seniors who have managed to keep their homes. They need to realize this.

I talk about this everywhere...the grocery store, the bank...I am content to simply scare the shit out of people and get them to vote NO.

[Clete]

28. You are so right, but they are the hardest to get through to.

n/t

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

29. Not when you tell them their property taxes will go up

They hear that one ;-)

[Clete]

34. NSMA they don't own property.

The ranchers own property. The retirees own property. The poor who should care don't care.

[REP]

80. The Poor Rent

and if their landlords pay more property tax, their rent will GO UP. Property tax hikes affect even those who don't own property.

[maggrwaggr]

62. I would LOVE for California to secede

They don't want us, and we don't want or need them. Why not?

[shance]

67. WP*** You rock......

Of course this is about principle. Gray Davis has done absolutely nothing to invite this recall.

Why voteclark wants to keep creating divisive threads is the question to be asked. He needs to head on over to Freerepublic. I think he'll find his kindred spirits there.

[jeter]

78. HE DOES NOTHING PERIOD

Except attend fundraisers. The recall is a fact. Crying about it won't make it go away. 30% of those who supported it were Republicans.

[Classical_Liberal]

88. Your insane, since the recall is Constitutional

and Davis is being recalled on his record as a politician not his personal life. You are banking on a politician with only 20% approval when we could have Bisumante. This isn't the impeachment or the selection.

[Zorro]

126. You've got it

Surrender and resignation is the coward's way.

Davis excels at giving hell to the Bush administration, and hasn't begun firing his guns yet.

Let the hubbub surrounding Arnold's entry into the race die down, let the other wannabe candidates shoot Arnold full of holes, and then Gray will step in and begin hitting on all cylinders. I think he'll wait until after Labor Day and then make his case.

Davis is a fighter, and I believe will survive this outrageous recall attempt. I'm from California, and there are a lot of people here that are appalled at what the Republicans are trying to do. We might not be enamoured with Davis, but we know a setup when we see one, and I think a majority of Californians recognize this as a blatant attempt to overturn the election results and know the seriousness of what's going on.

[realFedUp]

127. a voice of reason

amen brother Pitt.

[VermontDem2004]

129. I support Recalls but this one

On November 1987 in Arizona, the citizens gathered enough signatures to recall Governor Evan Mecham,(Trust me! You would not want him as governor, his approval ratings were lower then Davis) but about a month later criminal charges arose, then later he was impeached making the recall election unnecessary.

[slackmaster]

145. William, you're close but missing one fact

Davis is ineligible to run in 2004 because of term limits.

The only chance the Republicans (and anyone else who has changed their minds) have to hand him his ass on a platter is the recall election.

[Cheswick2.0]

168. you are 1000 percent right

screw this republican sponsored recall and all the third party oportunists who want to tag along for fun and profit.

[NNN0LHI]

8. Did you think Clinton should have resigned too by any chance? n/t

[VoteClark]

14. Nope, not by any chance

Although a Gore Presidentcy would be a good thing

[Classical_Liberal]

92. No and since he wasn't required to what is your point

Clinton also wasn't as dirt unpopular as do-nothing davis.

[Mz Pip]

23. Uh, no

Davis won less than a year ago. He is not a criminal nor has he done anything fraudulent.

This recall was set in motion by rethugs who did not like the outcome of the 2002 election and want to try again with a new candidate or the same candidate, doesn't matter which. They just don't want to wait 3 more years.

Davis may not be popular but he hasn't done anything illegal. So, I will work to make sure the election stands. Davis has done some good things for the state. Unfotunately they are lost in the cacaphony of the recall shills.

THere is something really distasteful to me to remove a person from office because the spin has worked against him.

I do not understand why Davis is being blamed for all of CA problems. He did not create this energy mess. He is not personally responsible for rising unemployment or lack of consumer confidence - look to Washington for that.

MzPip
:dem:

[Classical_Liberal]

93. The recall doesn't specify fraud either

he is corrupt. That is why he bailed out Enron.

[VermontDem2004]

133. If Davis done something illegal

he would of been impeached therefore making the recall unnecessary. You don't have to recall someone who didn't do anything illegal, Evan Mecham was about to be recall in 1988 but he did do something illegal AFTER the citizens got enough signatures to recall him. He was later impeached making the recall election unnecessary.

[slackmaster]

142. The purpose of a recall has nothing to do with crime or fraud

Those would call for impeachment, not recall.

A recall election in California is the equivalent of the voters saying "We changed our mind".

[kentuck]

26. I fail to see the logic ??

Are you afraid he might win and that will hurt the Democratic Party? If he drops out, the recall election continues. So Bustamante will get more votes if Davis drops out? Davis is not on the ballot, right? No one can vote for him?

But if he drops out, more Democrats will go to the polls in the special election? Just what is the upside if Davis drops out? I see the Democrats throwing away their best hand if Davis drops out. If he only gets 40% "NO" votes on the recall, what percentage of those will vote for Bustamante? Will it be enough to beat Arnold or Bill Simon? What if he drops out and the "NO" votes win on the recall? Does he say, "Just kidding... Can I come back?"

[VoteClark]

31. The logic is to keep California in Democratic Hands

The recall will fail. Period.

Arnold will be governor if Davis stays in. You want that?


:kick:
J4Clark

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

35. No he won't. Bustamante is polling higher than Arnold right now

Please inform yourself before starting another thread that looks like it belongs on another site....do you even live here in Cali??

[VoteClark]

42. Do you understand statistics?

I don't think you do.

Bustamante is neck and neck with Arnold. One poll shows Bustamante with 24% of the vote, and Arnold with 22%. There is a +/- margin of 6 points. That does NOT mean that Bustamante is ahead. What it means is that there is 90% chance using the methods of polling used in other polls that if the election were held today that Bustamante would get 18-30% of the vote and Arnold would 16-28% of the vote.

That doesn't mean anything at all. It means that either one is likely to win.

The other poll shows that 52-64% of the people in California will vote for the recall.

only 50% is needed. At best you 48% against the recall. At worse nearly 2 out 3 people vote for it.

You can't beat that, no way.

When Simon drops from the race, you get Arnold's number even higher.

So you are right the recall is unfair, and way uncool. But you are going to elect Arnold the Governor if you fight it.


Your choices: 1) Get rid of Davis on our own, and pick another Democrat, 2) Get Arnold Elected. Which do you choose?

:kick:
J4Clark

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE WAY THIS EVEN WORKS???

The election goes on at this point even if Davis drops out. If Davis DROPS out...that will have Dems stay HOME thinking the friggin thing is a shoe-in and is cancelled.

Second, by your own statistics..Bustamante is TOO close to Arnold to be considered LIKELY to win, whereas Davis has 13 points from the 38 percent likely to vote AGAINST the recall to make up.

There hasn't even been a campaign yet..it is just kicking off this weekend.

AGAIN DO YOU EVEN LIVE HERE????

[VOX]

39. You *can* vote against the recall, and for Bustamonte just in case...

What is the sense in voting like the right wing for the recall?

Vote against the recall; if it's turned back, then CA stays Democratic. But your vote for Bustamonte will kick in if in fact the recall goes forward.

Davis leaves a lot to be desired, but he was legitimately elected. REpublicans are starting to specialize in undoing the will of the people. There is no logic in voting for the recall, in just the same way the right wing would do. Why help them out?

Recall NO; and a vote for Bustamonte, just in case.

[VoteClark]

50. Why not just defeat the recall by getting rid of Davis?

[kentuck]

54. Just surrender ?

You have not shown how Bustamante will get one more vote if Davis stays on? Davis is not on the ballot. It is recall, yes or no. Then you have an option of voting for someone other than Davis. Please explain how this will help Bustamante and the Democrats? it looks like a chickenshit surrender to me.

[Classical_Liberal]

94. Because the recall is only against Davis not Bisumante

So if Davis quits there is no recall.

[Booberdawg]

103. Not True!

So stop saying that! LOL!


It is TOO LATE for Davis to resign. THE RECALL ISSUE IS A CERTAINTY, NO MATTER WHAT!

[VoteClark]

106. That is not what we are arguing! Your not paying attention

We know that the recall is happening if Davis is in or not. Stop with that geez!

The bottom line is if Davis resigns then Bustamante is the new Governor. 50% of the people would vote AGAINST the RECALL. Get it. Do you understand? Very simple concept. Why go vote against him. The ONLY reason 60% of the people are FOR the recall is because they want Davis out.

Get rid of Davis, and the recall fails, not because the recall is stopped, but because people vote AGAINST it.

Do you understand that? Please tell me you understand that. It is not that hard to comprehend.


:kick:
J4Clark

[kentuck]

128. If Davis resigns, what reason do Democrats have to go to the polls ?

For Bustamante? Will that be a stronger reason than preventing the Repubs from running roughshod over the last election laws? Will Bustamante get enough Latino votes to beat the Repub (Schwarsenegger or whomever) without a turnout of other Democrats?

[Nazgul35]

134. speaking of not paying attention...

several people have asked you questions to which you have not responded, so let me recap:

1) Are you a citizen of California (goes to how well you understand cali politics)?

2) Do you understand the if Davis resigns, the recall goes forward (and then you would have to explain how this would increase voter turnout...cause the ballot isn't confusing enough...i'm sure a significant number of voters would think they was no point to vote...and who would win then...)?

3) Do you understand that he was popularly elected (for others here as well...this direct democracy crap is way out of hand....most intitiatives are passed (80%) with very low % of the vote becuase most voters don't vote for one unless it's highly controversial...)?

4) Do you understand thet Davis was screwed by Enron and the Bush admin (via the energy squeeze before the collapse of Enron) and that those forces involved in the campaign are pushing for further deregulation of the energy industry?

try paying attention to these four questions for starters....

There are two kinds of people in the world: 1) those who wait for someone to finish speaking so they can say what they have to say and 2) those who listen to what the other person says and responds to their points....wonder which VC is....

[VoteClark]

116. Think it through

The support for the recall if directly connected to Davis. If you remove Davis, people will vote "No" on the recall.


:kick:
J4Clark

[maggrwaggr]

63. because we'll still have a recall! Pay attention!

it's not that simple, and just because you wish it's so doesn't make it so

[VoteClark]

95. I fully understand that the Recall will happen if Davis resigns or NOT

But do you want to defend a guy with a 80% disapproval rating with $20 million divided between Davis and Bustamante? Or do you want to spend $20 million on just Bustamante against a recall?

It is illogical to lose the state of California to stand up for a principle. It is silly and moronic IMHO.

:kick:
J4Clark

[SoCalDem]

79. Buy a newspaper... turn on the tv...

I will say this slowly...

D a v i s... r e s i g n i n g... w i l l... N O T... s t o p... t h e... r e c a l l...



No "other" candidate can be listed.. the deadline was LAST WEEK...

We win by doing TWO THINGS....


vote NO and then on part 2 vote FOR Bustamante as an insurance policy..


If the recall fails, Davis stays gov, and the repubes start another recall petition, I guess..

If the recall passes, we just need Bustamante to have 1 more vote than Steroidman..

[VoteClark]

99. I KNOW THAT DAVIS NOT RESIGNING WILL NOT END THE RECALL

I got that.

Now understand this. NOBODY WILL VOTE TO RECALL BUSTAMANTE!

They will not vote for it. People only support the recall because Davis is president. Geez, anything beyond 2 steps is beyond people.

:kick:
J4clark

[VermontDem2004]

155. How do you defeat a recall by getting rid of Davis?

that just doesn't make sense.

[VOX]

36. NO! Fight the recall!!! Started by the RW, paid for by the RW...

And the RW wants to f*** over California, which has eluded them for some time. You want our presidential candidate to win in 2004? Then why handicap him by allowing the recall to go forward?

C'mon, just think about the electoral-vote-rich states:

Texas - Bush
Florida - Bush
NY - 9/11; power pulled
CA - Attempted coup in process

Take a good hard look at the barbarians at the gate: Arnie's team is a bunch of RW Pete Wilson retreads (including Wilson himself). This thing stinks thoroughly.

Yes, Davis isn't a day at the beach; he's not liberal enough to suit me, either. But he was LEGITIMATELY ELECTED!!! Don't like him? Then throw the bum out -- in the NEXT REGULAR ELECTION!

We should be screaming in the streets about this fu**ing mess. You want to stick it to the Republicans and the RW??? Then piss on this attempted coup, aka recall. Get out the vote, donate, do whatever you can, because this battle runs right along partisan lines.

Vote for Bustamonte just in case (remember too that he is head of Joe Lieberman's CA campaign), but at the top of that ballot, vote NO on the recall!!!!!!

[Classical_Liberal]

96. So screw them over by voting no on recall yes on Bisumante

that puts he odds of a republican and 25%. No and No puts at 75% by my count.

[Booberdawg]

105. *sigh* Best chance for DEMOCRATS

1)Voting NO on recall leaves a Democrat in office (Davis)
2)Voting Bustamante puts a Democrat in office IF the recall vote is lost.

THE RECALL VOTE IS A CERTAINTY, REGARDLESS OF WHETHER DAVIS RESIGNS OR NOT!

[VoteClark]

115. Davis ensures the recall will pass. He resignation ensures the recall

will be voted down. The majority would vote NO on the recall if Davis resigns.

The Majority will vote "yes" on the recall if Davis stays, opening the door for Arnold to win.

:kick:
J4Clark

[TruthIsAll]

38. You have made a slew of false allegations against Davis..

These are the facts:

1) Former Repub Governor Wilson pushed deregulation.
2) Bush, Ken Lay and Cheney conspired to rape California's ratepayers through Enron's manipulation of Energy prices.
3) BushCo has driven the nations economy to the ground; California is just one of the many states that are bankrupt.

There is no logic to your argument. Davis fought Enron from the get-go. You say he has 20% approval. Bull. If you were a true Democrat, you would vote NO recall and hedge by voting for Bustamante, who already is sticking a dagger in Davis for the DLC and LIEberman.

Davis will win, much to your chagrin, because California's Democrats smell another Bush Coup here.

[VoteClark]

46. Sorry buddy, Davis will lose, I don't care how much you like him

Nearly 60% of Californians will vote for the recall. They want to vote for someone else.

Your vote counts as one, and only one.

You allow for Davis to stay in then Davis will be recalled and Simon will drop out the recall election, and Arnold will be the new Governor

:kick:
J4Clark

[deacon]

40. if davis gets booted, the GOP coup is a success...

...he becomes a fall guy for enron and that scumbag Issa becomes a hero to the radical right----

no00000000 way, i am voting davis.

[VoteClark]

48. NO, If the Repukes take California, The plan will be a success

That is goal here. Repukes are NOT planning to replace Davis with another but more popular Democrat, what is the point of that? Really, think about it.

They want to take the office by playing off the unpopular Democrat. Take out the upopular Democrat and they don't have a prayer in winning the election or the recall. Period.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Classical_Liberal]

98. No they aren't but that is why you make Bisumante an option

.

[Classical_Liberal]

97. We'll the thickheaded smuck shouldn't have bailed Enron

out!

[jeter]

41. EXACTLY, BRAVO DRAFTCLARK!!!!!!!!

This is nothing like Impeachment. During Impeachment, the vast majority of Americans wanted Clinton to stay. In California, The majority of Californians want Davis OUT!!!!

The recall is legal. It's in their constitution. So why should we destroy ourselves for someone who refuses to defend us when we need him.

If the Democratic Party told Davis to take a hike. He would probably resign and then this recall would be between one Democrat and several republicans in a Democratic state.

[Clete]

44. You are one of the reason hemp isn't legal. n/t

[WilliamPitt]

45. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ROFL ROFL LOL!!!!!

Best. Post. Ever.

[VoteClark]

47. You are one reason California will have a Republican Governor

[Clete]

139. Say how?

We have a Democratic Governor, legally elected by the people, unlike our President. This person wants to get rid of Davis. If you support this then you and he are part of the problem. If you live in California, go back to where you came from. We have enough problems.

[mitchtv]

170. you are one reason that California should have residency requirements to v

.

[VOX]

51. You're saying impeachment isn't legal? Hell yes it's legal!

Can't you see that Repukes are getting very adept at exploiting the various "legal" means at their disposal to undo legitimate elections?

Impeachment, recall, whatever, the right wing will will fund it, run it to the hilt, and try to snatch up the crumbs when the dust clears.

Sure, I'm not Gray Davis's biggest fan either, but he was legitimately elected. Most of the things that Californians dislike about him are *not* his fault. The corporate media and the right wing have hung the horsecollar on Davis, but don't believe the RW spin.

Do not fall for the propaganda. Oppose the recall.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Oops forgot our little spoilers Camejo and Arianna dividing that vote

[Classical_Liberal]

100. Arianna will drop if she will end up a spoiler

and if anyone plays spoiler to her, they should do the same.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

43. before you do all CA DUers BETTER read this! VERY IMPORTANT!

and this NEEDS to be spread far and wide over CA...like yesterday!

Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis ..good read

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm

Arnold Schwarzenegger isn’t talking. The Hollywood action film star and California’s GOP gubernatorial candidate in the state’s recall election has been unusually silent about his plans for running the Golden State. He hasn’t yet offered up a solution for the state’s $38 billion budget deficit, an issue that largely got more than one million people to sign a petition to recall Gov. Gray Davis.

More important, however, Schwarzenegger still won’t respond to questions about why he was at the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills two years ago where he, former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan and junk bond king Michael Milken, met secretly with former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay who was touting a plan for solving the state’s energy crisis. Other luminaries who were invited but didn’t attend the May 24, 2001 meeting included former Los Angeles Laker Earvin “Magic” Johnson and supermarket magnate Ron Burkle.

While Schwarzenegger, Riordan and Milken listened to Lay’s pitch, Gov. Davis pleaded with President George Bush to enact much needed price controls on electricity sold in the state, which skyrocketed to more than $200 per megawatt-hour. Davis said that Texas-based energy companies were manipulating California’s power market, charging obscene prices for power and holding consumers hostage. Bush agreed to meet with Davis at the Century Plaza Hotel in West Los Angeles on May 29, 2001, five days after Lay met with Schwarzenegger, to discuss the California power crisis.

At the meeting, Davis asked Bush for federal assistance, such as imposing federally mandated price caps, to rein in soaring energy prices. But Bush refused saying California legislators designed an electricity market that left too many regulatory restrictions in place and that’s what caused electricity prices in the state to skyrocket. It was up to the governor to fix the problem, Bush said. However, Bush’s response appears to be part of a coordinated effort launched by Lay to have Davis shoulder the blame for the crisis. It worked. According to recent polls, a majority of voters grew increasingly frustrated with the way Davis handled the power crisis. Schwarzenegger has used the energy crisis and missteps by Davis to bolster his standing with potential voters. While Davis took a beating in the press (some energy companies ran attack ads against the governor), Lay used his political clout to gather support for deregulation.

A couple of weeks before Lay met with Schwarzenegger in May 2001, the PBS news program “Frontline” interviewed Vice President Dick Cheney, whom Lay met with privately a month earlier. Cheney was asked by a correspondent from Frontline whether energy companies were acting like a cartel and using manipulative tactics to cause electricity prices to spike in California.

more...

[VOX]

49. Excellent post, ED!

Thanks for this, and for the link.

:toast:

[Fescue4u]

175. good read

nt

[ElsewheresDaughter]

52. odd that your post count to begin this thread was 666

could you be Satan?

[VoteClark]

71. Yes I am

You caught me. Boo Hoo! :evilgrin:

[not systems]

53. your not helping clark

You wrote:

"Boot Davis, save the party and the state for the Repukes."

I assume you intended to write from not for but only
because this is DU do I think that.

Otherwise I would assume you are a republican also
if you don't live in CA then p*ss off with your media
formed distortions.

If you do live in CA then:

No recall Yes Bustamante No 54

[WillyT]

57. Heh... EXCELLENT CATCH There ezmojason !!!

Is that a Freudian slip, or a Fr.....ian slip???

Enquiring minds want to know???

:wtf:

[VoteClark]

90. typo

I meant "from" the repukes. Not "for".

If you have Davis gone, you will get 65% against the recall. And Bustamante would win the recall.

I moved away from California. He is all fu*ked up. Nice to know I made the right choice.

:kick:
J4Clark

[kentuck]

55. I'm beginning to think Davis will get more Repub votes than Arnold....

..because it appears Repubs are much brighter than Democrats.

[Eloriel]

64. Sigh. That WOULD be a logical conclusion

after reading a fucked up thread like this, wouldn't it? I don't think I've ever seen so much ignorance parading itself as political strategy in my life.

People, people.

1. Try to defeat the recall.
Davis may not even deserve it in your eyes but DEMOCRACY does, by God, and it's imperative to do what we can to defeat fascist thugs who want to make an end-run around democracy, as they're trying to do in TX, CO, and by doing things like re-nominating previously defeated judicial candidates (brute force "won't take no for an answer" tactic).

2. JUST IN CASE defeating the recall doesn't work, Californians have GOT to have someone who can defeat Arnold. The best candidate, no matter what anyone thinks of him, is Bustamonte. He's already Lt. Gov. He's got experience at governing. He's got good support from Latinos. He's the best choice unless everyone wants to line up for Arianna. (And thank Goddess she chose to run as an Independent so she doesn't split the Dem vote too much.)


3. It's my understanding that a Davis resignation would NOT stop the recall vote. So it would be just a terribly dangerous capitulation to this fascist takeover attempt. I'm not even sure what happens to Bustamonte in that case (Davis resigning). Does anyone? He probably stays on the ballot, but can also be replaced if the recall wins and he doesn't win on the 2nd half -- just speculation on my part.

Look, here's my rundown on the danger of what's happening in CA:

WAKE UP AND KISS DEMOCRACY -- and 2004 -- GOODBYE
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=180842

Eloriel

[poskonig]

61. Weak and absurd.

After the Clinton impeachment and Florida, we do not need to bestow legitimacy upon yet another attempt by Republicans to steal an election.

We do need to get Bustamante's name out; however, he is already in the lead. Davis needs to be swinging until the bitter end, should that be his fate.

Enron Arnold running to satiate his own ambition and is ripe for a beatdown. If the Republicans were smart, Simon would resign and give his supporters to McClintock, and then argue for a change of political direction in Sacramento. Schwarzenegger has to make a choice whether to move left or right -- or lose votes to both the left and right. Either option is bad -- running to the right makes a Democratic victory a slamdunk, and running to the left only makes the Simon/McClintock clones stronger.

[Classical_Liberal]

101. Only in states with recall provisions

which are mostly repuke anyway, and only with Dems as politically weak as Davis.

[Doomsayer13]

66. Don't you see? there's more at stake here than just Davis

We can't let the republicans win this time, becuase if we do it'll give them the heads up to throw 2 million dollars behind more recall elections and our political systems and democratic institutions will turn into a circus and a sham. Just think of the precedence this is setting, and thing of the long term ramifications it will have for California. If this recall is successfull, what's to say that any future governor can't be recalled for no reason? The end result will be elected officials who would be unwilling to make unpopular decisions for the betterment of the state becuase of the possibility of a recall around the corner. Darrell Issa spent 2 million dollars buying this Recall election, and I for one am not going to let him or any of his RW friends have the satisfaction of knowing that California politics are for sale!

The choice is clear. No on Recall, Yes for Bustamante.

[FredScuttle]

69. Amen, Doomsayer

What message does this recall send to any future Democratic contenders for the governor's seat? Better be popular or we'll stab you in the back?

For the millionth time, this recall is not about Davis...it is all about a thuggish manuever to subvert our electoral process in California and overturn the will of the over 8 million voters in this state who have supported Davis.

Speaking as a Californian, misinformed opinions such as those from VoteClark are as welcome as croissants in the White House.

[VoteClark]

70. Davis is gone, the best we can do is keep it in Democratic Hands

[VoteClark]

72. 80% of People Dislike Davis. He is gone! Period.

80%, 80%of the people hate, dislike, dispise, want him gone!

You can't fight that number. And why would anyone what to fight a battle against 80% of the people in California?

Insane, it is insane to dump the entire party for one man that is hated by 80% of the people!

Get a clue, Davis is out, but the vote, or by our hand. You are doing what they want you to do, and they will take over the state.

REMOVE DAVIS AND SAVE THE STATE. KEEP DAVIS AND DESTROY THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND LOSE DAVIS ANYWAY.

:kick:
J4Clark

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

74. 80% of the people don't even vote

There has been no campaign yet. It was 78% last time I looked. 38% opposed the recall. There have been no debates for other candidates. Davis not dropping out will not hurt the Dems chances, it will help them.

[VoteClark]

104. Explain why 50% would vote to boot Gov. Bustamante? And you have

your answer.

That is my argument. You will not get 50% of Californians to vote to remove Bustamante.

The Repukes would fail. End of story.

The ONLY reason that 60% of Californians are FOR the recall is Davis.

If you remove Davis, nobody would be for removing a recall.

If you can articulate WHY more than half the people in California would want to boot the Governor Bustamante then you can convience me that Davis should stay. Otherwise, all your arguments do not change the fact that Arnold will be the next Governor of California.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Booberdawg]

108. What you refuse to see

Is that "getting rid of Davis" will NOT STOP THE RECALL! THE RECALL WILL GO FORWARD NOW, NO MATTER WHAT!

It is TOO LATE for Davis to resign.

The IDEA, my fellow Democrat, is to HAVE A DEMOCRAT IN THE OFFICE!

There are TWO ways to accomplish this

1) VOTE NO ON THE RECALL (Davis stays in office)
AND
2)Vote FOR Bustamante (In case the recall vote is lost)

[VoteClark]

109. Can you read?

Really?

Answer the question? Where do you get this notion that I THINK, or every thought,in the least bit that Davis resigning stops the recall?

I know that, I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that I know that.

YOU UNDERSTAND that I know this, Long before I posted this thread. I sure hope you understand that I KNOW THAT THE RECALL WILL STILL HAPPEN IF DAVIS RESIGNS. Now pay attention!

That is not my fliping argument.

I my argument it this.

NOW, If Davis resigns. The RECALL WILL BE FOR BUSTAMANTE, NOT DAVIS.

Are you CLEAR on this Point??????? GOOD!

Now, If Bustamante is GOVERNOR, people will NOT vote for the RECALL. DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT?

This means that California remains in the hands of Democrats.

Geez!

:kick:
J4Clark

[Booberdawg]

111. Okay

But I DON'T agree that Davis "should" resign. The arguments against his stewardship are as manufactured as the ones against Clintons by the right wingnuts.

There are TWO chances for the Governorship to remain in Democratic hands if Davis DOES NOT resign.

The recall COULD BE DEFEATED, thereby leaving Davis in office. IF the recall effort is successful (Repukes win) THEN, the second part of the ballot allowing a vote on Bustamante as the replacement ALSO allows for the Governorship to remain in Democratic hands.

Your plan limits the options, and reduces the chances for success.

Now, are YOU clear on this??

[VoteClark]

113. Your wrong again, sorry

Bustamante can stay on the ballot. Thus he can still win twice.
Once against the recall. Then once again if he gets the pularity vote if it does.

The advantage lies in two places. One, in campaigning. They focus on one man instead of two.

The second advantage is that nobody really wants the recall if Davis is gone.

You have a 75% chance of defeating the recall with Davis out. You have a 60% chance of winning the Governorship even if it did pass.

With Davis in, you have 40% chance of defeating the recall and a 50% of winning the governorship if the recall passes.

Which odds do you prefer?

:kick:
J4Clark

[Booberdawg]

119. Your "strategy" is based on nothing more

than the fact that you personally don't like Davis, and even that is based on specious reasoning. Your numbers are self serving without any basis in fact. Davis stepping down does not guarantee people will not still vote FOR the recall. (Republicans, for instance) In fact, his stepping down would more likely cause Democrats to stay home instead of voting AT ALL.

This recall effort and the reasons for it were MANUFACTURED by Republicans, remember? Your strategy would play right into their hands and allow them to play only one strategy - against Bustamante (who could still lose to Arnold by the way), instead of having to play both the recall AND the replacement strategy.

That's not to mention just plain old DEMOCRACY. Davis was fairly re-elected less than a year ago! Are you willing to just roll over for the Republicans every time they want "do-overs" when they don't get their way in a regular election? For that reason alone every Democrat should be fiercely against Davis stepping down. And, by exploiting the plurality vote, it is possible to put a Republican in the office on fewer votes than those opposing the recall.

Are you willing to concede that there might be another way to look at this than the one you are promoting?

Are you willing to concede that those with careers in politics doing the advising for the Democratic Party in California might be better informed on these matters? And better equipped to outline a successful strategy? Even if that strategy is not consistent with yours?

[VermontDem2004]

158. You can't run to replace yourself

in a recall election.

Bustamante can stay on the ballot. Thus he can still win twice.
Once against the recall. Then once again if he gets the pularity vote if it does.

[kentuck]

131. If Davis resigns, Democrats will not flock to polls for Bustamante...

and a Repub will have a much better chance of winning. This is the Republican strategy. Do you get that? With Davis on the ballot, many more Californians will vote "NO" on the recall than will vote for Bustamante. However, Bustamante will more likely come in second if you vote NO on recall and YES for Bustamente.

[slackmaster]

146. I think you're right, kentuck

If Davis resigns anyone who supports him (mostly Democrats) will be disheartened and may not bother to vote even though they really should.

Sad but true.

[VoteClark]

153. No my Friend, Davis being Governor is certain a loss on the Recall

People aren't not the recall just for "f*ck" of having a recall. They are for a recall because of Davis.

If Davis is gone, Independants will not go to the polls to vote against a man that is already gone. Democrats will vote against the recall and Repukes, which are badly outnumbered, will vote for it an lose. Pretty simple concept.

Would a governor that has a 60% approval rating lose a recall? That is what you are saying.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Tinoire]

107. What sick, twisted reasoning based on utter disrespect of facts & CAvoters

Do you live in California? I'll bet HELL NO!

Davis fought Enron TOOTH AND NAIL but you'd have to live here to know that.

I'm no Davis fan, he's too much of a Centrist for me but he's a Dem and he won fair and square because people like me voted for him. Can you understand that? We voted for him! Davis was re-elected, less than a year ago, by a majority of the voters in California!

I am thoroughly sickened that the Democratic Party abandoned Gray Davis (a Centrist Dem of all things!) and did not fight this ridiculous recall tooth and nail. Nor did my DLC-ridden Party which was too beholden to Enron and other corporations do much to help us fight Bush's good friend, Kenneth Lay as he raped and plundered our state. If/when California goes Republican, we can expect another 4 years of Bush because a Republican Governor will ensure the Diebold voting machines "select" Bush.

Where the hell were you when he was fighting Enron? Where the hell was the DLC-ridden, Enron-beholden Democratic Party? Nowhere to be fucking seen yet now we get all these "gems" from the wolves.

Blaming Davis is simply ridiculous but some people are masters at spinning! All these fashionable quick fixes such as recall, impeachment and redistricting are nothing more than ways to circumvent the true will of the people.

[Booberdawg]

110. Sssssssomebody pinch me!

I fell asleep and woke up on the Fox News Channel!

Todays feature: Most shocking moments in uninformed opinion masquerading as political strategy, guaranteed to defeat DEMOCRACY in 4 easy lessons! Need not be present to win!

:wow: :wow: :wow:

[Libby2]

112. Bullshit

He was duly elected......and aside from any illegal activities, should continue his term......freaking maggots going after CA and TX
sucks.

People need to open their eyes.

[VoteClark]

114. And he will be legally unelected

That is the fact. Like it or dislike it. 80% of the California is going vote him out.

Now, keep the freaking state in the hands of the Democrats

You are willing to lose the Presidential election, and about 4 or 5 Democrat US House seats for trying to stop what WILL happen anyway.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Tinoire]

122. Are we?

WE already re-elected him- as Centrist as he may be.

People like you and the Republicans (not sure where the twain meet due to your slip up about saving California FOR Republicans; kind of like Bustamante letting the word "Nigger" just "slip" from his lips) are undoubtedly doing their best to get him out so that the DLC can REALLY get a hold in CA and we can just DIEBOLD-manner hand the elections over to either Bush or Clark but be forewarned, CA voters are no fools. We can SMELL dirty tactics from yards and yards away.

[kentuck]

132. Your entire premise says 20% will vote NO on recall...

Because 80% do not like Davis. Is that correct?

[VoteClark]

154. My Premise says Davis will lose and Arnold will win

That is correct. I wish to replace the losing candidate with a stronger one. That is correct.

[kentuck]

157. And who would be that "stronger" candidate ?

Dems seldom if ever win any "special" elections. Check the history. The best chance for the Democrats is to get a "NO" vote on recall from sensible voting Californians, both Repubs and Democrats.

[VoteClark]

160. Davis can't defeat the recall

Bustamante can. Very simple.

[Bridget Burke]

117. "Save the party & the state for the Repukes"

Sorry, I'd prefer they try to save it for the Democrats.

By the way, I'm not a Californian, but the thread starter doesn't seem to be, either.

Is this thread a subtle attempt to turn people against Clark, as well?

[VoteClark]

150. TYPO Sould say "save it "from" the Repukes. Not "For" LOL

[Tinoire]

118. Why the hell is Bustamante sabotaging Davis, Labor & the 2004 Elections?

Yes, Bustamante, that one, the same power-hungry man who previously tried to sabotage Davis with the farm labor vote when Davis was running against Bill Simon and is sabotaging him now (see Ref 1). The same Bustamante who is Lieberman's top supporter with their cute little pact of mutual endorsement. Bustamante who is to the right of Centrist Davis. The same Bustamante who has Ritchie Ross, Republican lobbyist as his spokesperson. The same Bustamante who is putting Labor in a position where they have to spend some of the precious little money they have for the Democratic Primaries and Presidential elections to support Davis who has been pretty good to California (ref 1). The same racist Bustamante who can't prevent himself from using words like "Nigger" in his speeches when speaking to a room full of Black people. see Ref 3

I am distressed that a bunch of 'smart' people aren't smelling the right-wing arm of the Democratic Party when it rears it's ugly head. The DLC is NOT letting go and too few are seeing their brilliantly engineered ploys to either remain in power or just give it to the Republicans. That's how much the DLC hates anything progressive and will stoop to ANY dirty trick to include parading its members as Liberals knowing full well that most people won't, don't have the time to, dig deeply enough to catch on.

Another BRILLIANTLY engineeredDLC/Republican coup and Dems not even seeing it coming. Let's just keep empowering the DLC! Cruz Bustamante, presented as one of the 100 To Watch DLC New Democrats http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=1848&kaid=104&subid=210
------------------------------------------------------------
Ref 1- Nigger ref is Ref 3 below

With the recall movement against his ally Governor Gray Davis on the verge of success, Bustamante shocked fellow Democrats by proposing that he would allow a statewide vote to recall the Governor - but, by ignoring what the state constitution clearly requires, would forbid any vote to replace Davis.

By this de facto coup d'etat, boasted Bustamante, the Governor's office would become vacant and he as Lt. Governor then would automatically become the new Governor. All that would be needed to guarantee continued Democratic control of this office, said Bustamante, was approval by an obscure, Democrat-dominated panel called the Commission on the Governorship.

Fellow Democrats apparently sat Bustamante down and explained that California was not yet Mexico, that the voters would not accept such an obvious banana republic coup d'etat or his shredding and burning of the constitution in front of their eyes. What he advocated was blatantly illegal, much like Gray Davis' demand that his name be allowed on the ballot of candidates who could succeed him.

http://countrystore.blogspot.com/

------------------------------------------------------------
Ref 2

Big labor opposes Davis recall
The AFL-CIO's leaders urge Democrats to stay off the ballot.

By Margaret Talev -- Bee Capitol Bureau
Published 2:15 a.m. PDT Wednesday, August 6, 2003

<snip>

Bringing to bear its political influence on wayward Democrats in California, leaders of the nation's largest labor federation Tuesday voted unanimously to defend Gov. Gray Davis against an "unwise and dangerous" recall. The AFL-CIO represents four in five unionized workers nationally -- about 13 million people in the United States and 2 million in California -- and carries significant political clout.

<snip>

Under Davis' administration, unions have flourished, with the implementation of state employee raises, a new paid family leave policy, and injured-worker benefit increases.

<snip>

"We call on all state leaders in the Democratic Party to stand united with the governor and stay off the recall ballot," said the statement of support for Davis approved by the federation's national executive council.

Separately, the California Labor Federation executive council formally voted over the weekend to support Davis and sent a letter to each of the state's Democratic constitutional officers, congressional delegates and members of the Legislature, asking them to stay off the recall ballot and work in lockstep with unions through the election. The California Labor Federation is the state arm of the AFL-CIO.

<snip>

Labor leaders admit resources could be tight as they plan for next year's presidential election; a federation spokeswoman said the typical budget for all national voter education and mobilization efforts in a presidential campaign year is $30 million to $40 million.

<snip>
http://www.sacbee.com/content/politics/recall/story/7171731p-8118813c.html

Ref 3

But if Bustamante wants to win over the state's African-American voters, he'd better hope they don't remember an embarrassing incident from two years ago when the gubernatorial hopeful blurted out the "N" word during a tribute to Black History Month.

"This word comes out of my mouth, and I didn't know what to do," Bustamante told the San Francisco Chronicle the next day. "I kept going on with my speech - when I got done, I just stood there. I couldn't believe what came out of my mouth." ((Oh yeah,:wtf: I guess evil Republicans just put it there!))

Bustamante, whose popularity among Latinos could make him the state's next governor, was addressing an annual awards dinner and scholarship fund raiser for the Coalition of Black Trade Unionists. After the anti-black gaffe, about 100 people - 25 percent of the audience - got up and left.

"I was appalled that he would even say it as a slip," one audience member told the Chronicle. "You don't make a slip like that unless you use it normally."

<snip>

http://countrystore.blogspot.com/

And this guy says he makes "improving race relations the cornerstone of his career"! :puke: I wonder what Barbara Lee, who was in the audience thought of this! I wonder what Black Democrats who are taken so much for granted by the Democratic Party will think of this.
Kiss California good-bye. Kiss any 2004 Democratic win good-bye now. We are fucked, fucked, fucked. The fucking Trojan Horse is at the Gates of Troy and Democrats are opening the gate.

Yeah, call me Cassandra. It's my real name and this is no game. This is war.

[leesa]

120. You are awfully harsh on Davis, seeing as how he didn't do

anything wrong except stand up to the Crime Family and try to intervene during the energy swindle. I guess we'll just continue to allow the Republicans to pull the strings.

[gulliver]

123. More brilliant ideas from VoteClark

VC likes to make dumb posts under the name VoteClark. A rather crappy thing to do, IMO.

Here is a thread where VC recommends that every DUer send a bag of pretzels to Bush at the White House.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=184932&mesg_id=184932

I called him on it and asked VC if he had sent in his bag of pretzels since it's such a "good" idea.

VC responded "I will" in the following thread where VC decides to call the founding fathers child molesters.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=185178&mesg_id=185178

It's now 2 days and counting.

[robbedvoter]

124. Thanks, Karl! (You are not helping your candidate - whom I like

by endorsing fascist coups against Democracy.
Your post is ignorant - Davis cannot stop the recall even if he withdraws and in bad faith.
Here, do some reading:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm 
 
Published on Sunday, August 17, 2003 by CommonDreams.org

Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis

by Jason Leopold

Until you get educated on the matter, please refrain from posting idiotic threads.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

125. CA DUers must READ this entire article RE: Arnold & Kenneth Lay 2001

!

Ahnuld, Ken Lay, George Bush, Dick Cheney and Gray Davis ..good read

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0817-07.htm

Arnold Schwarzenegger isn’t talking. The Hollywood action film star and California’s GOP gubernatorial candidate in the state’s recall election has been unusually silent about his plans for running the Golden State. He hasn’t yet offered up a solution for the state’s $38 billion budget deficit, an issue that largely got more than one million people to sign a petition to recall Gov. Gray Davis.

More important, however, Schwarzenegger still won’t respond to questions about why he was at the Peninsula Hotel in Beverly Hills two years ago where he, former Los Angeles Mayor Richard Riordan and junk bond king Michael Milken, met secretly with former Enron Chairman Kenneth Lay who was touting a plan for solving the state’s energy crisis. Other luminaries who were invited but didn’t attend the May 24, 2001 meeting included former Los Angeles Laker Earvin “Magic” Johnson and supermarket magnate Ron Burkle.

While Schwarzenegger, Riordan and Milken listened to Lay’s pitch, Gov. Davis pleaded with President George Bush to enact much needed price controls on electricity sold in the state, which skyrocketed to more than $200 per megawatt-hour. Davis said that Texas-based energy companies were manipulating California’s power market, charging obscene prices for power and holding consumers hostage. Bush agreed to meet with Davis at the Century Plaza Hotel in West Los Angeles on May 29, 2001, five days after Lay met with Schwarzenegger, to discuss the California power crisis.

At the meeting, Davis asked Bush for federal assistance, such as imposing federally mandated price caps, to rein in soaring energy prices. But Bush refused saying California legislators designed an electricity market that left too many regulatory restrictions in place and that’s what caused electricity prices in the state to skyrocket. It was up to the governor to fix the problem, Bush said. However, Bush’s response appears to be part of a coordinated effort launched by Lay to have Davis shoulder the blame for the crisis. It worked. According to recent polls, a majority of voters grew increasingly frustrated with the way Davis handled the power crisis. Schwarzenegger has used the energy crisis and missteps by Davis to bolster his standing with potential voters. While Davis took a beating in the press (some energy companies ran attack ads against the governor), Lay used his political clout to gather support for deregulation.

A couple of weeks before Lay met with Schwarzenegger in May 2001, the PBS news program “Frontline” interviewed Vice President Dick Cheney, whom Lay met with privately a month earlier. Cheney was asked by a correspondent from Frontline whether energy companies were acting like a cartel and using manipulative tactics to cause electricity prices to spike in California.

more...

[Nazgul35]

135. is this a freudian slip?

"Boot Davis, save the party and the state for the Repukes."

Just wondering....

:evilgrin:

[Booberdawg]

141. Interesting catch

:eyes:

[samsingh]

137. Davis is still Governor

and deserves respect. he is getting a raw deal.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

138. Davis WON the election 8 months ago...8 months CA voters wanted him

repukes don't like the democratic process!!!!

[slackmaster]

143. Maybe so but only the voters can decide whether Davis stays or goes

The recall is an opportunity for ALL of the voters to say whether or not they have changed their minds about having Gray Davis as governor.

[Rhiannon12866]

178. This has become a common Republican tactic

If they don't like the outcome of an election, just keep doing it over until they win. They did it in Florida in 2000, they are doing it with the redistricting in Texas and now, with the recall in California. Pete Wilson left the California economy in tatters. Why isn't anyone bringing this up? Now he's working for Arnold. Thanks for posting this article. I will read it and hopes it provides some answers.:shrug:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

147. YOUR STRATEGY WILL SUPRESS THE DEM VOTE AND ENSURE A REPUB

WIN - END OF STORY.

[Booberdawg]

149. With friends like this ...

oh, nevermind ... :eyes:

[salin]

164. Sort of reminds me of the logic of not standing with the CBC

over disenfranchised black voters. The argument... the 'people are tired' and 'want to move on'.

Completely missing the point that only 40 years earlier some who were intentionally disenfranchised from the 2000 election had never been fully enfranchised in the first place.

Too placate the fatigued public - a very serious battle was conceded. And another lesson sent to the Repub - that there nasty as they wanna be tactics... work. Seems they served as a dare to overturn elections (there is an early effort to recall the Wisconsin Gov... just because)... to overturn redistricting... what comes next?

Why, in the name of fatigue - are some willing to concede foundational points of our democracy (that people vote; and that vote should mean something/be upheld - unless something criminal goes wrong).

Why is the point missed that we could now see electionrejection by recall as a regular, ongoing, republican strategy whenever they do not win the popular vote?

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

166. ONE LAST TIME,...REPUBS WILL STILL SHOW UP!

and as far as handing the election over to BUSH...MAYBE YOU SHOULD BEST PUT YOUR ENERGY INTO A STATE THAT DID...CALIFORNIA DIDN'T>

Davis resigns...DEMS END UP STAYING HOME...REPUBS WILL STILL VOTE>

PLEASE RUN A NUMBER ON SOMEONE ELSE!!!!!!

[mkregel]

162. Ummmm

Davis is an OK Governor. He took a little time before standing up to the power co's but he did stand up to them. More than I could expect from Bustamante, the Leiberman of the Cali dems.

Shit, I'll take OK any day over the options....

VOTE NO ON THE RECALL!!!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

169. PLEASE LET THIS PIECE OF REPUB FAVORING PROPAGANDA DIE

[mitchtv]

173. I read in another post that you are taking a leave

please contact me for any info you might need in Coachella Valley. I will be circulating a Recall Arnold petition for Willie Brown if the worst happens.

[JackSwift]

179. Reality sets in. I'd like Davis to resign

but he has no moral obligation to do so. He did win the election fair and square. But he has no personal loyalty from me. I will vote against the recall because he did win fair and square, he has not committed any crimes and I am a loyal Democrat. But he has done nothing for my party or for me. Bustamante is a party man.

As for Davis resigning, don't hold your breath. Davis has never done anything for anyone except Gray Davis, and he won't change his spots now.


Vote no recall, yes for Bustamante.

[Rhiannon12866]

180. ``Vote no recall, yes for Bustamante.''

Good answer!:-)

[newyawker99]

181. I am locking this thread.

The author is no longer with us.


NYer99
DU Moderator