Logic Argument: If someone disagrees with you they are a Freeper

[VoteClark]

I honestly don't know a person in that has not been called a freeper.

I am sure that there are freepers in here. However, I think it is horribly misused and a stupid thing to say to someone. For several reasons.

1) You can't prove anyone in here is or is not a freeper.

2) Obviously, they would not promote any candidate except one that stood no chance. But even then, it could be someone that does really believe in that candidate that has no real chance.

3) They would not admit it anyway.

What bothers me about the "freeper" accusation is that it is not productive. All it does is make people angry and it doesn't defeat the argument at all.

If a freeper comes in here and makes an argument against a candidate, or for a position, it doesn't disqualify the argument calling them a freeper. If anything, it reenforces the position of the other side.

It is more logical to attack the arguments, not the person. If you make arguments that knock down their arguments over and over again, they will leave. If you call them idiot and a freeper you justify that they are correct because you CAN NOT knock down the argument.

The people that I am most suspecious of being freepers are ones that always agree to make friends. Only post positive information about candidates that can't win. And always accuse others about of being freepers. If you can accuse people of being a freeper all the time, people can't attack you as being a freeper being on the defensive.

So if you think someone is a freeper, attack the arguments so they become ineffective in making a difference.

Attacking the person is not only a logical falacy, but also could get you banned. We all get emotional, and attack some people sometimes, we all do it. But let us use our heads.

And one last thing. Just because someone does not agree with you does not mean they are not a Democrat. The Democratic Party is huge with over 70 million people that are all different in location, age, race, height, religion, background, wealth, education, and lifestyle. So please remember this is the Democratic Underground, not the ultra-liberal, or the moderate position party. The party has a wide variety of people from ultra liberal to almost conservative. I have conservative Democrats in my family. Many of the Democrats in the South and West are very moderate and even conservative in some cases.

:kick:
J4Clark

[MrPrax]

1. Philip K. Dick Wrote Extensively on this Conundrum n/t

[VoteClark]

2. who? where? and what?

[jpgray]

3. Clans of the Alphane Moon and Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep rule!

I'm slowly plowing through his books. Have about four or five major ones left, and then all his short stories of course. Great stuff!

[Isabel Cole]

5. ??

Good for you, but I still don't see what PKD have to do with freepers - hey, maybe the whole Free Republic is a huge joke PKD's playing on us from beyond the grave??

[jpgray]

17. Subjective realities and paradoxes are prime Dick themes (nt)

[Rex]

19. Logic question - is a freeper a sentient being?

nt

[sistersofmercy]

4. Thank you! Let's not attack the person but instead the issues!

The funny thing is I'm relatively new here but find an awful lot of squabbling over silly points! Namecalling etc. Even got a message from someone who totally missed my point and what I was asking them. Instead preferred to send a message saying they weren't talking to my when I was just asking about stats. I was needless to say very insulted I thought "Aren't we all on the same team here?" Anyway, haven't recognized any repubs here.

[CarlBallard]

6. Can I call someone I disagree with a moran?

I like that one better as an insult anyway.

[VoteClark]

20. What is a Moran?

J/K, I know you meant.

:kick:
J4Clark

[LearnedHand]

32. Check out the DU Glossary!

http://dug.seattleactivist.org/#m

Scroll down to "moran" (photo included).

[JackSwift]

7. Well let's get it over with then

I don't think anyone here has ever called me a freeper. At least not that I've noticed. So ya all can do it here. But it probably won't bother me as I am well medicated. Just don't call me a Green.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

8. Ask them who their Democratic hero is and why.

You will be able to tell by their reply whether or not they are sincere.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

9. I didn't see anyone on your thread call you a freeper

Please be clear I said your thread title would better fit on FreeRepublic.

You fail to take into account the way the election is going to work.
You fail to take into account that there will be an election anyway.
You fail to take into account that there has not been a campaign yet.
You fail to take into account that there will be a ballot proposition on as well that will energize the Republican vote.
Then, after you fail to take that all into account, you fail to respond to the fact that you fail to take that into account.

As to why anyone else would consider you a freeper, I have no clue.
I simply notice you post, and continue to repeat your same mantra throughout your post without responding to all the things you falied to take into account.

I don't think anyone should call anyone a freeper but if you are challenged in your threads for your ideas, how about actually supporting them without the same repetitive lines that fail to take into account so much?

[Rex]

12. I saw it on his other thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=191761

post #65

VoteClark, just hit the alert button when this happens, no need to start a thread over it!

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

13. Fair enough..hadn't gone back up to the top of the thread

but the point of this thread is VoteClark is complaining that we need to argue with logic but when VoteClark refuses to clear up the false assumptions on which his thread is based, the cry seems insincere.

[VoteClark]

18. Sorry didn't see that nothingshocksmeanymore

I will answer all your arguments. Even though I thought I had already.


Point taken. Davis won by 5% against Simon. Don't think he can do better against three Repukes and Simon. He will also be outspent 3-1 running against 10 muli-millionairs.

"You fail to take into account that there will be an election anyway."

I KNOW that. That is WHY I want Davis to go. He is the cause of fire. If Bustamane is the Govoner, people will VOTE against the recall. With Davis, they will vote for it.Do you want people to vote for it or against it?

"You fail to take into account that there has not been a campaign yet."

Yeap, and he will fall even further behind when $60 million dollars is campaigning against his $20 million.

"You fail to take into account that there will be a ballot proposition on as well that will energize the Republican vote."

Nope, that will not effect the campaign much.

"Then, after you fail to take that all into account, you fail to respond to the fact that you fail to take that into account."

SORRY! Out of the 70+ replies I missed yours.

You fail to realize that there is a Presidential election and we stand zero chance of winning if the Democratic candidate has to waste time, money, and energy hanging onto Califorina

You fail to take into account that having a man in your party with a 20% approval rating reflects negativly on the entire party. You fail to realize that this could cost other Democrats in California and the west their seats in office, all for one man.

You fail to realize that it is harder to fight for promoting Bustamante and defend Davis, who nobody likes, at the same time. It divies our time, energy and money. It makes us look like we are directionless. It makes us look like we are talking with a forked tougue. Which is what people dislike about politicans and worse professional politicans that rule California.

You fail to realize that the recall is going to go through and Davis will be thrown out. And if he is, Arnold will be governor.

I don't disagree with the fact that Davis was unfairly targeted. Or disagree that this is plot by California Repukes to unfairly unseat a democraticly elected Governor in a fair election. I agree that Davis is NOT at fault for many problems in California.

But that doesn't change the fact that Davis is going to lose. It doesn't change the fact that Davis is hated and dispised by 4/5 of the people in California. Nor does it change the fact that Arnold will be Governor if he gets more votes than Bustamante.

You fail to realize that the passion you feel to KEEP Davis in office does NOT keep him in office. Facts on Davis don't matter. Facts on the economy don't matter. Facts about what Davis did or did not do, don't matter. The only FACT that matters is the Davis is going to be recalled. Now, do you want to gamble with the state of California and pray that with $5 million you can elect Bustamante when Arnold will have $20 million. Is that smart? I don't think so. I think it is smarter to spend the entire $20 million on defending Bustamante from being recalled, who has a much much higher approval rating.

Spend all your money on ONE guy, either Davis, or Bustamante. Not Both, that will cause BOTH to lose. I choose Bustamante, he is easier to defend.


:kick:
J4Clark

[Cronus Protagonist]

10. I've never been called a freeper

Even although I have been attacked by the, rather oxymoronic, DU intelligentsia from time to time, even they have refrained from calling me a freeper.


Fair & Balanced Buttons — The Cronus Connection

[bicentennial_baby]

27. Me either

I have yet to have the honor! :P

[Dookus]

11. I've never been called a freeper....

but, VoteClark, I've noticed your posts tend toward the aggressive if not insulting.

As a fellow Clark fan, I think you could present your arguments FOR Clark a little better without insulting others.

[VoteClark]

15. I actually agree with that

I have once in a while attacked people personally in response to a personal attack on me. Usually out of anger. It does not justify it, but I don't call them a freeper. I often get into heated arguments with people on the far right and far left. Often with people that think all wars are wrong and all wars are right. It bothers me when people think like that. I think everyone does to a degree to a certain attack people personally. But sometimes it goes to far and is to common on DU. I had this one guy follow me to every single post and lay down a personal attack on me because I don't like Dean. That bothered me to a great degree.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Dookus]

16. well...

it goes beyond that.

As somebody who voted for Gray Davis twice, I think it's sort of insulting to be told we should "drop-kick" him from office.

It's a rather dismissive statement that doesn't address many of the issues that faces us Californians.

I don't know if you're a californian or not, but it's sort of insulting to us here.

[VoteClark]

21. You have to face the reality of the situtation

Yeah, sure, I would love Davis to be popular and hold his own. But he can't. He is hurting the other Democrats in other states. It is a big liability. You have to face the fact that defending him will cost you winning the recall for a Democrat. The Repukes got us right where they want us. We are damned no matter what. WOuld you rather win the battle and lose the war. Or win the war and lose the battle.

I would rather win the state of California and lose the Governor, then win the principle battle and lose the state. Arnold will bring in a huge number of Republican victories all over California. Big stakes, big risks, time to drop Davis.

:kick:
J4Clark

[Rocinante]

14. I think

I got called pussboy by a freeper here once, anyway it made me feel real proud.

[yeti]

22. I agree ...

The people that I am most suspecious of being freepers are ones that always agree to make friends.

Absolutely, you sure hit that one on the head, pal. :)

...edited to fix html bracket error...

[bpilgrim]

23. when folks resort to 'freeper' tactics or sound-bytes

it can be useful to point them out.

i have been suprised when someones case comes apart some folks resort to freeper type tactics or sound-bytes which certainly isn't useful for debate either.

like 'blame america first' or 'commie/socialist' 'nazi' supporter' :puke: etc...

:hi:

peace

[bpilgrim]

24. example: 'You support facism then' by VoteClark

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=174804&mesg_id=179976&page=">recent DU thread example

peace

[acerbic]

25. Reference to the "logic argument" of that post can be found here:

http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/straw.htm

I haven't noticed anyone calling this "VoteClark" critter a freeper for disagreeing with anyone. I have noticed it being called a freeper for attacking Democrats exactly like a freeper. I have done it too and will do it again when the reason is given, since alerting on the freepery doesn't work nowadays.

[Trajan]

26. Freepers are disruptors .....

Otherwise: .... those holding conservatie positions are simply holding conservative positions, .... and can be refuted based on the merits or lack thereof of the conservative arguments ....

You DONT have to be a 'Freeper' to hold failed conservative policies to heart .....

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

28. you also don't need to be a freeper to be a disruptor

[Trajan]

31. Amen Sistah ! ....

[VermontDem2004]

29. I never attacked someone on this board

and I would challenge anyone to find a thread in which I did.

[wyldwolf]

30. It's usually used out of desparation...

...when the one losing the argument runs out of options.