New idea for DU

[wtmusic]

Got it (oddly enough) from the Hate Mailbag.

Just passed my 1000th post, and I've had some great experiences here on DU, including doing some enlightening (possibly), being put in my place (definitely), and learning a helluva lot in the process.

There are many with over 10,000 posts, some of whom I have come to respect immensely for the consistent quality of their input, whether factual or opinion. Posters like NNOLHI, Nambe, Eloriel, dsc and many others make an invaluable contribution to the integrity of this board.

The problem is: we don't hear enough from them. Face it, we all agree ( or have cowed dissent to the point where people just don't post) on the following:

1) Anyone but * in '04;

2) Picking nits over the relative merits of various candidates is pointless;

3) Joe Lieberman is a dork;

4) Bring our soldiers home;

5) Rummy/Wolfowitz/*/Kristol/Fleischer/McClellan/Coulter are evil;

etc. etc. etc.

Aside from vanity posts a lot of the dialogue is repetitive, and one sender of hate mail was right--by not allowing any alien (i.e. Republican) points of view our opinions are becoming inbred and to a certain extent less interesting.

My idea is this: To start one forum only (an "Open" forum) where all views are welcome. It would be held to the same strict standards as any other DU forum (no personal insults, flamebait, etc.) Call me an idealist but an Open forum, among other things, could help to spread information and change minds/votes.

Also posting to admins.

[searchingforlight]

1. In the interest of personal growth, I like it.

[Fixated]

2. ...

Bring our soldiers home? Not a chance, bucko, take that one off. It's our mess, we have to fix it.

[bitchkitty]

3. Respectfully disagree -

I wouldn't want Republican propaganda on any board I visit - it's called DemocraticUnderground for a reason. If I wanted to read GOP talking points, I'd just sign up to be an RNC team leader, or visit FreeRepublic.

[Droopy]

4. Maybe

But I can't think of anything that a conservative would have to add that would help me in any way. I know all their positions already. If I have it right, anyone can cruise on in here and post as long as they are respectful of the idea that this message board is for liberals. I've seen a few people who've come in here who call themselves conservatives and seem to get along okay. I'm betting we'll be seeing more of them as conservatives become increasingly upset by huge deficits and an insane foreign policy by BushCo.

[wtmusic]

10. Another motivation

I've met intelligent conservatives who plain "just don't know" (or know the tripe that the media has been rehashing) and I have changed minds.

[HFishbine]

16. Agreed

I posited this idea a few weeks ago (apparently, it resurfaces from time to time). One of the best reasons I can think of is to allow for legitimate conversation with those who may be dem curious. Sure, it may be frustrating, but probably not much more argumentative than some of the debate that goes on here now.

Without a doubt, DU serves a vital purpose as it is, but it could do more. If we are going to win in '04, we are going to have to bring people over from the dark side. Allowing new people exposure to the brilliant minds on DU; allowing them to make statements or pose questions that would normally get them banned may actually do some meaningful good if we are able to bring some light to some narrow views.

[Fixated]

5. ...

I've been pitching this idea for a while, I love debate, and as long as we could keep it civil, what's the harm? Make sure both sides are being nice (i.e. don't be hypocrites) and just have fun with it.

[philosophie_en_rose]

6. But isn't there the entire internet for that?

I don't think it's a bad idea, but I don't think that DU is the place. It would be such a large burden for the mods and the freeper invaders who are civil already post.

[roughsatori]

7. You are making an assumption that some of us only get info here

I disagree, I am bombarded with the Republican agenda when ever I watch the corporate media.

I will never donate to a site that encourages Republican views.

DU is my antidote, I do not want it diluted.

[Fixated]

8. ...

That's why it would only be one forum that you never have to visit. We can call it "Idiots welcome" if it makes you happy.

[roughsatori]

12. I would just not come here anymore if they enacted that suggestion

If enough of you crave the Republican viewpoint and the DU Administration approves, good luck. I will relinquish my membership.

But the Administration has nixed that idea before, so I am not worried.

[Skinner]

9. A few thoughts.

We actually do allow a wide range of opinion. If you are generally a progressive, you are permitted to hold and share opinions that are traditionally considered "conservative." As an example, I would point out that despite your assertion to the contrary, there is not unanimous agreement on any of the five issues you posted above...

1) Some people on DU have already stated that they won't vote Dem if the Democrats don't nominate a suitable candidate.
2) Many people pick nits over the relative merits of various candidates. In fact, this is probably the source of the most fierce debates on DU right now.
3) There are some Lieberman supporters on DU. And there are a lot of people who would vote for him if he were the nominee.
4) There were some supporters of the war. And now that the war is over, I think you will find that many people here think immediate and unilateral withdrawl of our soldiers would be a very bad thing.
5) Not as much disagreement on this one, I must admit. But occasionally on DU people will agree with these individuals.

There is a wide variety of opinion on DU. You don't have to look very far to find discussions where people disagree.

But we're not going to open up DU to our political opposition. If you want to debate conservatives, there are thousands of places on the Internet where you can do so. Just not here.

[Aristus]

27. Amen, brother.

Well said.

[HFishbine]

35. Skinner

Not be lost in this suggestion is an appreciation for DU; and you do indeed allow a wide variety of opinion. But for all the brilliant analysis, tireless research, and thoughtful reasoning here, we ultimatley are "preaching to the chior."

Now some DUers are fortunate enough to be able to extend their voice further into the mainstream because they are authors, journalists, or politicians, but most of us don't have such opportunities.

What if there were a forum where the dem curious could post their questions or beliefs without fear of getting the boot, for the purpose of gathering responses from informed DUers. Would that not amplify the power of DU?

What if there were just a single forum that might accomodate posts such as:

"I don't like dems because they politicize everything. Look at how they've resorted to saying Bush lied about reasons for the war."

or

"The Patriot Act is not a bad thing. In times like these, it's appropriate that we give up a few freedoms to fight terrorism. If you aren't a criminal, you don't have anything to worry about."

or

"I'm sick of people saying George Bush went AWOL. He served honorably in the Texas Air National Guard."

With all tha DUers know about these topics, don't you think we could privide some education for people outside the current DU circle?

I don't know what the abilities of the DU software are, but maybe non-DUers could be limited to posting only a single question with all responses being from DUers - thus avoiding "arguments." Maybe questions could even be submitted through a moderator so that the curious don't have any posting rights at all -- just the opportunity to solicit feedback.

[Booberdawg]

11. No Way!

I'm not the LEAST BIT interested in Republican points of view. I already know what they are and have rejected that philosophy. They would be in here trying to convince us of the error of our ways, as taught them by Fox News and Pigboy.

There are other forums that provide what you suggest. This one is a safehaven for Democrats and progressives only.

[mandyky]

13. And if you gave 'em an inch,

they take a mile. Freepers are bullies, and that's the people we'd get if we opened things up.

[DarkPhenyx]

22. We don't have our own bullies here?

n/t

[catpower2000]

14. We all agree? Hardly.

1. I have already stated on record that I WILL NOT vote for Lieberman or Kucinich. Any other Dem candidate will have my vote. So clearly, "anyone but Bush" is wrong, I do NOT agree with that.

2. I find debate about the candidates to be an important thing for us to do--surely we should work out any kinks before the press gets ahold of them. Hardly "pointless".

3. Lieberman IS a dork, yes.

4. I was against the war, but there are lots of people here who weren't. And now that we've fouled it up so badly, I don't think we should just pull out all at once, either.

5. Well, yes.

As you see, there is HARDLY universal agreement about ANY of these issues (except perhaps #5). You do NOT speak for all people here on DU, and I for one would leave if I had to be subjected to the Repuke viewpoint every day. That's why I COME here, to get AWAY from it.

Cat

[wtmusic]

15. Responding to my own post, and others

Thanks everyone for input. I understand that debate on Democratic issues would be difficult if all comers were welcome.

But to open one forum? I still don't get it. In fact there aren't plenty of places for serious debate on the internet; nearly all unmoderated and are unbridled flamefests.

It's as if we just want to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how great we are. Don't understand the motivation for this restriction of ideas--I thought that was basically a Republican tendency.

[HFishbine]

17. Right

It certainly could be tried in a single forum where the rules are a little relaxed.

[bearfartinthewoods]

18. why?

serious question....why the desire to debate republicans?

what do you hope to learn or achieve?

[HFishbine]

19. Why?

Tochange minds. We can exert our time and energy in an echo chamber, or we can recognize that we need to reach across party lines to win in '04. If you're not into it, couldn't you enjoy the exisiting DU forums with no detriment?

[bearfartinthewoods]

23. sure i could enjoy the other DU forums but what makes you think

this place will attract republicans and independents that are subject to being swayed?

hell..we lose centerist dems all the because this place is so lefty.

what makes you think you'd have luck changing pubbie minds when even members of our own party get chased away.

if anything, i'd vote for a forum that was centerist friendly or even tolerant before i'd support bringing in pubbies.

[wtmusic]

25. This place will attract

anyone who has an open mind because it IS moderated well and because there is intelligent discussion going on.

[bearfartinthewoods]

28. awww....come on....

when there is almost always some variation of 'are all republicans evil' going, replete with the prerequisite demonization, you think pubbies are going to want to come here?

there can be a meeting of the minds but it's not going to be constructive if the meeting happens on a forum where many of the most frequent posters believe bush is a cross between hitler and satan.

this is just not the place for it to happen.

[wtmusic]

30. Not saying sparks wouldn't fly

but if personal attacks were STRICTLY prohibited, the forum would be truly one-of-a-kind, and would open some eyes.

One word sums it all up: INCUMBENT.

[bearfartinthewoods]

31. i have to disagree.....

beyond personal attacks, what about the fact that bush's name is rarely even used here? you think they'd feel like an open minded discussion with people who call him smirky and chimpy? who refuse to acknowlege that he's president? you think that atmosphere would lead to eyes being opened? i guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

[wtmusic]

24. Because "Republicans" have a wide range of views

just like Democrats do. I know Republicans who opposed the war and would be considered left of "Democrat" Joe Lieberman.

Look, it's easy to call everyone who disagrees with us a wingnut and consider them a lost cause. I'm not freeping, I'm definitely not Republican, I don't support a Republican agenda, but a lot of them (in all seriousness) just don't know. Our enclave is very comfortable and reassuring but there's some work to do if we're going to lose * in '04.

[bearfartinthewoods]

33. i don't call them wingnuts

and i do what you say you want to do, all the time. i do it face to face most tuesdays and wednesdays at local forums. i do it every chance i have in my business. i keep the waiting room tube tuned to the news so i have an excuse to bring up the subject.

what i don't do is plaster the walls of the waiting room with bush suxs posters and then expect thoughtful effective discourse. i call bush bush and sometimes, president bush. i don't pretend he wasn't elected. i don't come at them from the angle that everything he says is a lie or that everything the media says is a lie.

i treat them and their opinions with respect. it's the old sugar versus vinegar ploy. there is just too much vinegar around here for any cross party discussion to be productive.

[Booberdawg]

20. Beg your pardon

"It's as if we just want to pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves how great we are. Don't understand the motivation for this restriction of ideas--I thought that was basically a Republican tendency."

I respectfully suggest you have now mischaracterized what several people here have given as reasons for opposing your suggestion. Begging your pardon - THAT is "basically a Republican tendency".

[DarkPhenyx]

21. But it sounds oh so familier...

...and looks a lot like thigns I've seen posted on this board by "good liberals". Mischaracterizing others isn't a sin solely of the Right. Many people on the left attempt to demonize otehrs simply because that person disagreed with them.

[Booberdawg]

29. Agreed

This makes twice in the same day we've agreed DarkPhenyx :scared:

[LiberalLibra]

26. Want freeper input? Go to "freerepublic.com" nuff said

..

[Skittles]

32. NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

I DON'T WANT F***ING GARBAGE FROM FREEPERS AND I WILL STOP DONATING IF I SEE IT. If I want the opinions of these deluded FREAKS I can turn on the radio, the TV, read a newspaper, etc. DU IS MY OASIS AND I DON'T WANT IT TAINTED WITH AN OPEN F***ING FORM, PERIOD.

[HFishbine]

34. Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh, Oh

You missed the point. It is not to get "their" opinioins, but to offer "them" an opportunity to learn more about dems and our ideas. The people whining about running away (and taking their donations with them) also conveniently miss the important aspect of this suggestion that it be confined to a single forum, in which they may choose to participate or not.

It seems to me like some would not only wall themselves off, rather than attempt to educate others who are not yet "in the fold," but are even against the idea of anybody having any engagement with "them." Sounds very narrow minded to me.

(And please don't suggest a visit to freerepublic, not only does that once again miss the point that our purpose is not to learn of their ideas, but it also ignores the fact that they too, just like DU, do not accomodate any discussion with the "enemy.")

[Skittles]

36. OK THEN LET ME PUT IT ANOTHER WAY

"THEY" DON'T WANT TO LEARN ABOUT US - THEY GOOSE-STEP TO BUSH INC. FOR CHISSAKES, EVEN WHEN IT IS SO F***ING OBVIOUS BY NOW THE GUY IS FASCIST TO THE CORE. I DON'T WANT THOSE PEOPLE ANYWHERE NEAR THE DU.

[opihimoimoi]

37. I agree w/Skittles, Hopeless, The energy required to change one mind

equivilent to 8576970898171625243.009 megatons of high grade TNT is not worth it.

Soon you will see the Anti Pub Factor emerge from within their ranks and they will self destruct as in all other Facist Empires. They will consume themselves. All we have to do is watch and cheer. Many Pubs will have no choice but to join us in defeating a bad form of Gov't posing as a good one. The lies gets them everytime.

[hunter]

38. There are plenty of "Open Forums" elsewhere...

You yourself can take the "progressive" ideas you find here on DU to other forums. I always do. And sometimes I'll take ideas from other forums back to DU.

Think of yourself as a bee, think of the various forums you visit as flowers. Cross pollination is a good thing. But in many instances the pollen of one forum is not viable in another. Nobody here wants to read how handsome our President is in a flight suit! (Barf, barf, barf, I actually read that at another forum I sometimes visit.)

Nor does anyone come to DU to talk about, say, Light Emitting Diodes. I am fascinated by LED's, but if I posted something about that subject here on DU, I might be considered quite daft. But it goes over pretty well on Slashdot...

Occasionally I will post something here on DU that I've picked up in other forums, for example, libertarian political forums, that is very useful in discussions here at DU. And vice versa. I always get a little thrill when that happens!

Peace