Civil Rights, BBV and Max Cleland

[ewagner]

I've been thinking a lot about BBV in the last few days and it's beginning to worry me more than before. As is my nature, I have been looking toward solutions rather than awfullizing the topic.

I am posting this to draw comments and thoughts from the rest of the community.

My premise is this:

Electronic Voting Machines without an auditable trail are a violation of Civil Rights.

I look at it this way: If a candidate is denied a right to challenge election results in that there is no possible way for the accuracy of the count to be determined, then they are being denied "equal protection" under the constitution. I specifically mentioned Max Cleland in the title because, if he was denied a full accounting of the vote by virtue of 67 smart cards being unaccounted for, then his civil rights have been denied. Moreover, the limitation applies to any and all candidates being denied equal access/rights to the electoral process and hence a possible cause for a class action suit.

I would like DUeres with a legal background to comment on this. Is this something the ACLU should take an interest in?

Has this already been proposed?

[DEMActivist]

1. Max Cleland has no interest in this topic

Your entire premise is in Max Cleland caring. That basis is wrong.

We have tried on multiple occassions, through multiple contacts to get to Max. He is not interested in this story at all.

[ewagner]

2. Okay

Class action and/or ACLU?

[DEMActivist]

3. ACLU told us to get lost

long ago. Their answer was "Where's the harm?"

As for class action, that would mean finding an attorney to bring the suit - and they've all said "Why should I talk to a bunch of activists? Activists don't have any money. Now go away."

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

4. What about...

Ron Kuby?

[ewagner]

5. sorry

I'm sorry I'm not familiar with Ron Kuby. Can you enlighten me?

[ewagner]

6. "Where's the harm?"

I would think the answer is obvious.

Do you know why they responded like that?

Quite curious.

[DEMActivist]

7. While WE see great harm, attorneys....

are always looking for harm in terms of "what's the solution you are asking the court for?"

In this case, proven fraud would mean overturning elections - which would overturn any legislation Governor Sonny Perdue has signed since his inaguration - and that is simply never going to happen. It would result in a constitutional crisis in Georgia.

You must prove "harm" (fraudulently electing the wrong candidate) in order to receive compensation for that harm. In this case the harm would result in an unaccceptable compensation.

[ewagner]

9. A different approach

As opposed to seeking to overturn the results of the election what if the approach was to seek monetary damages AND leggislation (via court order) to remedy the situation.

There are two lines of inquiry here:

1. That an unverifiable voting system itself is a civil rights/maybe 4th amendment violation and,
2. That if in fact a fraud was perpetrated in any specific election then the person or persons who actually committed the fraud are or should be subject to both criminal and civil forfeitures.

Thoughts?

[DEMActivist]

13. LOL, not my line...

that one belongs all by itself to the attorneys.

Just relaying their logic.

[PATRICK]

19. This is what NAACP does

When discussing what to do about Florida 2000, their lawyers filled in Mfume and company on C-Span detailing a long history of seeking damages up to and including election reversals.

Where was the ACLU I wondered? Well, vote fruad perhaps is more of a concern to the blacks? Vote fraud has been reduced to whacjking a single enthusiast doing something embarssingly stupid. Slap on the wirst. State legislation cleverly masks protections against recounts and fraud claims. Fraud with moderation seems OK and unprosecutable.

It all boils down to protecting a system since the alternative would threaten "chaos"- even if the whole system is bogus, maybe especially.
And the NAACP I note has accepted humiliating "victories" over Jeb that have been postponed or unproductive and underreported naturally. We are running out of time too when the fixer SAIC will craftily pass Diebold into the precincts despite all revelations. Lawsuits take time. After 2004 what courts will exist to hear them?

Keep looking for champions or cry over some beers withe NAACP. We are being betrayed in BIG ways by nearly all the leadership organizations in Ammerica, much less the politicians.

Keep looking. Any DA's who want to take a Great Leap in their careers and maybe save the world while doing their job? There must be someone with more mojo than poor Jim Garrison.

[ewagner]

20. Right!

Keep looking. Any DA's who want to take a Great Leap in their careers and maybe save the world while doing their job?

That's the spirit and committment we need.

[TacticalPeek]

11. So bad we can't fix it?

Somehow civil and voting rights came to the sixties' South without completely exploding the constitutional order. Just partially exploding it. Lord knows you're right about that harm not being acceptably compensated. Ex post facto and all, I guess.

Same here: just recognize the blood in the water under the bridge so that the NEXT Cleland either does not happen or is readily remedied.

[DEMActivist]

14. Lord knows, that's not MY position...

it's the attorney's position. I've talked to lawyers (as have SEVERAL Black Box Voting activists) until we are blue in the face.

We have yet to find ONE that will take the case.

[TacticalPeek]

8. IANAL but...

I see not Cleland but rather the voter who would have a claim here. Guess claim is not the right term, more like constitutional beef, or maybe voting rights act violation. That's it, VIOLATION! Sure what it feels like and amounts to. But VRA would imply a racial minority component for the basis, but, heck, who knows: if you look at the numbers, maybe there is some vote dilution effect, and I think nowdays you need not prove intention. With the VRA approach, you've got the 14th and 15th amendments, whatever, to bring in also.

The other longshot is the 17th amendment, which deigns to give the people the right to elect their US senators. That is, people as opposed to the state legislature. If you can't prove by audit the election results, is the right to elect abridged maybe? (OT: hope someday the government will deign to apply this right to presidential electors, people vs lege, tho it takes an amendment; creep you out that the FL or any state lege can send electors pledged any way they please, completely regardless of any popular vote, even a big majority, 60% can be ignored with total impunity?rantrantrant)

It seems like it would be fun for some law students, profs, cranky retired practitioners, etc. to at least back-of-envelope this to see if there is, tho not an ironclad certain win, at least enough to get in the door of a fed court. If nothing else, it gets you information. And it took many tries during the sixties before that VRA can finally started getting kicked down the freedom road.

And you wouldn't need a former senator, just some covered voters.

[ewagner]

10. I like your reasoning

(LOL :Probably because I agree with your point)

Any ideas how to (cheaply ) pursue it?

[TacticalPeek]

12. Daydream? n/t

[ewagner]

15. More like HOPE

Remember the Sign over the River Styx? Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter here

Life without hope is hell

[RedEagle]

16. If you nad an INDIVIDUAL....

....and there would be many, who claim their rights have been violated, you might get the ACLU involved.

I took this to them long ago. They told me they would only pursue it if an INDIVIDUAL had their rights trampled. (Why they can't translate that to a group is beyond me....)

I, too, don't see how they can ignore a voting rights case.

[TacticalPeek]

17. Not to apologize for anyone not defending the Constitution....

but it's probably to do with priorities, nature of org/agenda, etc., "civil rights" vs "voting rights".

I could be totally wrong, but I recall that in the Deep South struggles, ACLU (usually local affiliates?) would help you with bad arrests, censorship, etc., but the heavy lifting on voting, etc. came from other lawyer groups like Lawyers' Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, as well as the orgs guys, like SNCC, NAACP, SCLC, etc. Some brilliant work came out of all that, and they were going against some not-too-shabby oppo.

Hmmm, nah...guess Morris Dees' bunch is another area of specialty, bless 'em.

Any legal aid folks left after raygunbushbush? Once upon a time, they could be great; even found one to take on the military! Won that sucker, too.

[ewagner]

18. First

...let me compliment you on having the gumption (really lousy word) to take this to the ACLU. Being only a recent convert to the issues, I thought I'd try to get something going. In fact you already have.

Do we actually know of a person who would stand up to get the ball rolling?

The thread on BBV 101 indicated that irregularities have been found in Georgia, Texas and (of all places) Minnesota. Is there anybody in those three states that wants to push the issue?

on edit: I'm glad we're having a reasonable conversation on this. It is something that needs to be discussed.

[PATRICK]

21. even IF a lawyer won't take it

Get some "what if" or "hot to" advice. the more the better. Some suggestions seem good but their broad application could do more harm than good. Guess who has the most money and angry nutty voters trying to sue away election results? Booby kennedy went after the mob on taxes using the AG power combined with the feared IRS.

Here we are with nothing and nowhere to go not occupied by the enemy. The ongoing power is spreading this knowledge among the populace, especially the computer savvy sector, burning the ground out from underneath. There are few rabid supporters of vote fraud. In Maryland they have an old and rockribbed honest Dem DA. probably not up to speed on high tech but that seems a blessing considering the half-wise who have been duped. What about him?

In NY they are more tentative but they stick their noses in here eagerly. Diebold has a plant a half mile away from me. What about Spitzer, even though he let the investment firms down a tad easy?

(On edit:The day I stop having typos is the day I'll believe they can fix Diebold's programming.)

[TacticalPeek]

22. Programming, froframming...its the tangible audit trail: VVAT. n/t

Kick