How do we break the back of the right wing monolith?

[BurtWorm]

What wedge issue will splinter that shit bloc into smithereens? Can a wedge be driven between fundies and suburbanites?

[ugarte]

1. The economy has traditionally been the best Demo issue

Ever since FDR, Democrats have traditionally been viewed as the party that best represents the working class against special corporate interests allied with the Republicans.

This is the Democrats' only chance of beating Bush. Iraq and foreign policy, social policies, and all the rest pale in comparison to the economy and jobs issue.

Right behind jobs, I would put health care. They go hand in hand. These are the two major worries of most Americans, including myself. Will I have a job and will I have health insurance?

It's so damn simple. Ameticans don't give a damn about Iraq. Just keep pounding Bush and the Repubs with jobs and health care.

[BurtWorm]

2. There was an article in today's NY Times about unemployed SCians

posolutely ready to ditch Bush if they don't see action on the jobs issue SOON. It cheered my yankee heart.

Frankly, I do believe class warfare may be called for.

[DBoon]

3. class warfare already exists

We need to start fighting back!

[BurtWorm]

4. You have a point

but my point is this: Granted that the Bushists are plundering the spoils of everbody's surplus and prosperity to enrich themselves and their friends. This fact of their class warfare needs to be used against them relentlessly. There's nothing a working stiff hates more than to see someone getting rich off his or her sweat, and it doesn't matter whether they consider their own politics left or right. The Dems are fools if they don't paint the Repubs as the blood-sucking corporate whores they are.

[ugarte]

5. You're right

Demo politicians are waaaay too timid. Instead of attacking on the economic injustice front, they're always playing defense on the tough-on-terror bullshit.

They have to catch up to their constituents and get a little righteous anger in their gut. I'd like to see one of them take off his jacket and pound the table a little.

[BurtWorm]

6. I'd like to see one pound the table and mean it

Too often Dems--well, all politicians, actually--can't make any move without it looking like a gimmick cooked up by a campaign committee. This is an issue that they've got to feel and believe. Because it's real!

[never cry wolf]

9. a BIG problem is that

most people, especially suburbanites, view themselves as part of the class shrub and his lot are helping. most people overestimate thier relative wealth and/or anticipate aquiring more and thus feel the repukes cutting taxes for the rich helps them. we need to make very clear which economic classes are benefitting and just how much.

[BurtWorm]

10. I think you're right about wingers' grandiose self-image

I heard some "moran" on C-SPAN talking about how he supported making the Bushist tax cuts permanent so he could get rich and take advantage of them!

I'm not sure how widespread this delusion is among other Americans, though. What's clear is that the Republicans are masters at making their blocs march in lock step.

I suspect--and I could very well be wrong--that what cements the suburbanites and the fundies (pardon my generalization) is the promise from the Republican party that they will each get what they want--allegedly low taxes for the former and a viciously right wing social agenda for the latter--if they just stick together. And the party does make a major effort to appear to be solidly supportive of both agendas. In other word, it delivers for both groups. But I also suspect that the interests of the fundies and suburbanites diverge at some point--or points--where a wedge can be driven between them. The Dems need to find those points and drive those wedges.

[BurtWorm]

11. Dupe

[Clete]

23. My fantasy

is that the religious right form their own party, like a Christian Republican's Party or something like that. If they form a coalition outside of the traditional Republican Party then the GOP is toast and their caucus would be unimportant. This could have the same effect on the Repukes as the Greens do with us. Maybe we should start sending Pat Robertson every bit of dirt we can dig up on all the White House Republicans.

[Jose Diablo]

7. Break the neo cons?

Here is how I see it.

Pat Robertson and Moon have more that just religious designs. They are a POLITICAL organization, then religious.

The 'foot' soldiers doing the work for the neo cons has to be coming from a more basic or grass-roots operation. Enter Robertson/Moon.

I wonder who stood on the corners in California gathering signatures for a recall of Davis. Could it has been the 'Moonies'? My guess is yes.

Now, if an organization claims to be a religion, but is in fact a political organization more interested in controlling the government, well why does the IRS allow them to claim religious exclusion from owing income tax. Furthermore, why would individuals contributing to these organization (any form of them) be allowed to deduct contributions to these groups.

Bust the finances of grass-root organization, including those 110,000 churches that sponsor one candidate each to all 97,000 important elective offices in the country.

After all, didn't their own God say "who's face is on this coin <ceasar>?" meaning keep secular things secular and spiritual things spiritual.

TAX LIENS and jail for Robertson/Moon. Letters to all supporters from IRS saying you owe $xxxxx.

I do not think this can happen until Congress and Executive is taken back in 2004 though.

[BurtWorm]

8. Problems with your strategy

1) To put it in action, you have to have control of the AG's office. My feeling is you have to break this monolith NOW.

2) Punishing Moon and/or Robertson could backfire by creating martyrs for a cause. By now the organizations are greater than either Moon or Robertson anyway.

But I like that you're thinking about this, and you articulated what I only implied, which is that this bloc is extremely well organized, which is why it must be broken. My feeling is that it can be, but you have to get at it from the bottom, eroding support among the footsoldiers by driving in a wedge between them and their leadership. The most likely candidate for a wedge is class warfare: try to make the peons understand that they're pawns for a class of users who don't really give a shit about their economic plight.

[Jose Diablo]

17. Know the enemy

I wonder what makes a neo con tick. Some cases probable just money, but still wonder.

Is there some common factor that makes them think they have the answers to the world problems.

Its kinda hard to articulate, but what problems, personal as well as worldly are they trying to fix and why do they think they can solve these problems with their approach.

Think of it like being in a cult.

I remember, whats it been, 10 years or so, the 'Promise Keepers' and I thought to myself when I saw them on TV, 'those people remind me of the Hara Krishna's' from 25 years earlier. No, they did not look like HK's but there was an expression on their faces that was simular, like being hypnotized or something. PK were scrubbed sqeeky clean and their eyes, like , well like a convention of Jehovah Witness's. Seeing but not all there. It was spooky.

Anyway, you are correct. The followers need to be understood as to what pulls their chain and convinced they are following the wrong path. Is it possible? I doubt it.

But remember, all thats needed is a majority and there are far more of us 'normal' people than them. Whatever normal means.

[tnlefty]

12. Pardon me while I piss a few more people off

I take great delight in jabbing at the religious right crowd and some of these are effective:

I suppose you no longer want the Ten Commandments posted in the courthouse as I hear that you still support Bush*. But, then again, I suppose a fine christian man who lies to start a war to benefit his corporate cronies is ok. Funny that's not what I teach my kids.

Lying, killing for profit, and bearing false witness - someone's going to be in big trouble.

We liberals don't reject religion just the lying hypocrites who seem to run rampant.

I teach my kids to reject Bush's* brand of christianity. We like to try to live up to the cleaner, more honest version.

Why would God support killing a bunch of his other children?

Blessed are the greedy war mongers.

Furious speechlessness is wonderful to witness.

[samsingh]

13. we must stand up for ourselves

and call out their lies and propaganda. they are destroying our freedoms.

[Brian Sweat]

14. Just be patient

The Republicans are on a collision course with self destruction.

They have built a party based on hatred and racism and the center cannot hold. The electoral demographics of this nation are changing rapidly. There will be almost 11 million more people in America next year than there were four years early in 2000. Granted, most recent immigrants cannot vote and illegal imigrants cannot become naturalized unless a law is passed, but still there will be several million more minority voters in 2004 than there were in 2000 and there will be several million more in 2008 and again in 2012. The Republicans will not be able to hold office ten years from now if they continue to play on white middle class fears. They are going to have to start appealing more to minorities, but in doing so, they will lose there hold on the white middle class.

The GOP is in a serious catch 22 and they know it. They are desperately trying to figure out how to work out the electoral math in their favor, but it just isn't adding up for them. That is why they are attacking Democracy at its roots.

[LiberalEconomist]

15. It will be very tough

One major problem behind waiting for a right-winged implosion is election rigging. We have discussed on this board the potential concerns of electronic voting (Diebold et al.). However, there is another nasty trick up their swastika stained sleeves: purging voter lists. Nearly 58,000 names, most of whom were African Americans and Democrats in general, were wrongfully purged off of the Florida voting lists during the 2000 electoral robbery. What is to say that such action will not be taken nationally in 2004. Where was the "liberal" media in reporting all of this? This is not just the Supreme Court's decision, it is the blatant rigging of elections. What are we? A third world dictatorship?

[Brian Sweat]

16. As I said,

"That is why they are attacking Democracy at its roots." They know they cannot make the math work, so they are trying to change the equation.


Our goal should not be to sway the electorate, but to safeguard democracy.

[LiberalEconomist]

18. The first-principle

"He who casts the vote decides nothing. He who counts the vote
decides everything."

--Stalin

[Jose Diablo]

19. we don't have 10 years

We have got to make it happen in 2004.

If Bush* gets another 4 years, we will all end up in camps or we will have to go to ground.

I don't know about you guys, but I have real serious concerns for our country's future if we cannot stop them in 2004.

This is not just another election.

[Brian Sweat]

20. Put down the tin foil.

The government is not trying to control your brain with microwaves.

[Jose Diablo]

21. Yes

Your right. I sound like a nut. Maybe I am, but maybe not.

I notice that it is now legal to arrest and detain anybody for an indefinate amount of time. No call, no open hearing, no lawyer. Of course, now it is 'only' the muslims and we must do something to stop terrorism, right?

Someplace on my computer I have a file describing what a terrorist is in regards to the Patriot Act. And if I remember correctly, it is very vague. Fact is, 'dissent' could be interpreted as terrorism.

It is a very short step from jailing suspected terrorists to jailing political opponents. Very short indeed.

And this has happenned before, under very simular circumstances. Look at the Reichstad fire and compare that to 9/11.

What comes after jailing political opponents? It can become the worst nightmare that can be imagined. Or even could be imagined.

But maybe you are right. I hope you are. But what IF I am right, in all my paranoia. Or is less than paranoia and more study of what happenned in Germany.

I would rather be paraniod and do what is needed to prevent a future I see that is possible, than be complacent and say it cannot happen, then have it happen.:tinfoilhat:

[Brian Sweat]

22. I agree that we are on a dangerous precipice,

but it is premature to assume that we are headed over the edge. We should be vigilant, but statements like, "If Bush* gets another 4 years, we will all end up in camps or we will have to go to ground," are beyond the pale.

[Jose Diablo]

24. Beyounds the Bounds?

Beyonds the bounds, of what?

[BurtWorm]

26. I think you're right, too.

To be concerned about the anti-democratic tactics the right-wing has increasingly demonstrated an enthusiasm for. It seems Brian is not unaware of that tendency as well, if you read his last sentence.

[BurtWorm]

25. Interesting points.

I agree with you fundamentally. Where I might differ a little is over the necessity of speeding the "self-destruction" along. It seems to me that if the Republican vote can be split by 2004, it will be much more difficult for the Bushists to fake a win.