So, did we or didn't we?

[AmeriCanadian]

All my adult life I've heard seemingly compelling arguments
against Americans ever landing on the moon. There are numerous
websites discussing this. 
This past weekend I was looking at some of the photos on
display, at the Rose Center Planetarium in Manhattan, taken on
the moon and I in fact believe I saw double shadows in a few.
(One of the biggest mysteries involving photos)

I was eleven years old when we first landed and all my life
thought we landed there. It would be a discredit to those that
worked so hard on the project for it to have been faked.

My question (I wish I could set a poll)… 

Do you believe Americans ever landed on the moon? 
Or was it a master Cold War hoax?

 

[Must_B_Free]

1. I believe it

the footage of the rocket stages being dropped looked real.

I believe the "no moon landing" conspiracy is itself a conspiracy to make conspiracy theories look bad.

[Maple]

2. All these years

I believed it happened.

But the more that comes out that was lied about....well, you do begin to wonder.

[Walt Starr]

3. Without a doubt, 12 men have walked on the face of the moon

Not even a shadow of a doubt.

I watched it live. It happened. There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind.

Those who doubt it do so on the most ridiculous of arguments.

[Maple]

4. I watched people on Star Wars

walk on other planets too.

C'mon folks...seeing anything on TV proves nothing anymore.

[Walt Starr]

5. Oh good grief get real.

I can respect no person who doubts the moon landings.

Seriously, questioning the reality of the moon landings is Lyndon LaRouche Wacky in mky book.

The footage is not enough, look to the science involved. It happened. It was real. Denying it is no better than those who denied a spherical planet and heliocentric solar system five hundred years ago.

[Maple]

7. Flash Walt Starr

I don't care about your 'respect'

A question was asked, and I am answering it.

Your opinion on me is neither here nor there.

You cannot prove it...you simply believe it.

Much like people believe in God.

Or believed in a flat earth.

[SayitAintSo]

11. Or people believing Sherman was a hero and a visionary ...

oops ! wrong thread ! :)

[HFishbine]

13. Not to mention

the number of people who would have to be "in on it." All of the Apollo Astronauts, the camera crew, the set builders, the lighting people, the special effects people who created the video and photogrpahs we've all seen.

Then there would be the scientists who would have had to "go along with it" after analyzing moon rocks or taking measurements of distance by bouncing lasers off mirrors placed on the moon.

There would also be those scientists who built upon the lunar program (unless you think the space shuttle isn't real either) who would have been told with a wink and a nod, "You can't build upon the technology we used to go to the moon, because it never realy existed. You'll have to start from scratch."

Thousands of people would have to have been bought off or threatened so successfully that not a single one has spilled the beans in thirty five years.

Yeah, it could happen..... Riiiiiigggghhhttt.

[Maple]

17. Wink wink...nudge nudge

and har har har...sorry but it wouldn't take that many people.

Less than are in say....PNAC.

[HFishbine]

20. "Less than are in say....PNAC."

Well, that total B.S. The number of astronauts alone exceeds those in PNAC.

You are honestly suggesting that a handful of people, operating independent of any oversight, in total secrecy could produce a production of the magnitude previously unseen; not be discovered and not ever divuldge the truth?

You also just skip right over the fact that other scientists not involved in the original "hoax" would have to have been persuaded to "go along." Why would those who made subsequent studies of lunar rocks or conducted earth based experiments with equipment left on the moon, and the scientists and engineers who further developed the space program all have gone along with it? There is no motive.

Such a hoax would indeed, if one stops to think about it (something that seems to be necessarily excluded in order to even entertain the idea of a hoax), there would have to be thousands of people involved. Geez! Think it through.

[Maple]

23. Sorry it wouldn't take that much

and I don't think an earth rock would be that much different than a moon one....both the same body originally. More radiation. Or a chunk of meteorite.

Perhaps you could review my first post again?

And then watch that movie...Capricorn one I think it was called.

And a gullible public that wants...very much...to believe.

Hell people believe in talking snakes and angels when they want to.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

29. Okay, here's the kicker

How do you convince the Soviets to go along with the gag?

You remember them, right? Big country, took up most of Eurasia, at one point our dire enemy, never believed word one of what we said without some form of independent confirmation? The USSR? Ring any bells?

They could track the Apollo spacecraft. They could monitor the signal traffic. They'd be able to spot a hoax right off.

And they had plenty of cause to make the US look damned foolish in the moon race.

So, if it was all a big hoax, why didn't Pravda say something?

[Maple]

37. I've wondered that too over the years

However, would anyone have believed them?

Or would they have considered it 'sour grapes'?

Different era...people made fun of the Russians and repeated the slogan 'Russia inwented it first'...in a sneering way.

And Pravda??? C'mon. Pravda was a communist newsfront at the time

Even Russians knew you couldn't get the truth outa Pravda.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

43. So, you don't have an answer then, yes?

Drop the "oo looky looky I'm being daring and independent by questioning the status quo" schtick and just Answer. The. Question.

Because, y'know, when it came to the Space Race Russia did "inwent" it first. First artificial satellite. First Living organisms in space. First man in space. First woman in space. First extravehicular activity (spacewalk). First robot probes to the Moon, Mars and Venus. First manned space station (also the first fatalities incurred in the process of a mission). First permanently manned space station.

These were not idiots, and they would have evidence to back them up in the event of a hoax. Evidence that would be taken seriously by third parties.

So if it was, why didn't they come forward?

I await your evasion with baited breath.

[Maple]

I just gave you one

You haven't given ME one

Just a lot of juvenile jeering because you CANNOT give me one.

I am well aware of what the Russians did.

And yet suddenly out of the blue so to speak...the Americans did it.

The Russians did everything else important...but couldn't land on the moon....but the Americans waltzed in and did it.

None of this strikes you as a trifle odd?

Or are you tripping over a little nationalism here?

A little 'we are the chosen people' routine?

And I already answered your last question in previous posts on here.

Who would have believed the 'evil empire' at that time? It would have just sounded like sour grapes.

Different era.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

57. No, you didn't

You sort of sneered and said "sour grapes." That doesn't answer why no attempt was made, on the base assumption it was a hoax.

You try my patience, child. Answer the question.

If the Moon landing was a hoax, why didn't the Soviet Union - who had nothing to lose and everything to gain - expose it?

[HFishbine]

30. The Whole

point of Capricorn One was to debunk the idea of a hoax. Remember, it couldn't be kept secret. The evil government agents tried to kill the astronauts, but one "escaped." We have about thirty who escaped. Good thing they've all had their memories reprogrammed.

And why do you say, "it wouldn't take that much?" How many would it take? And why do you obstinantly refuse to address the matter of the further development of the space program. If it was all a hoax, when and how was the technology developed that evolved into what has taken us to Mars, Venus, Mercury, Jupiter, Saturn, and ... oh, wait, let me guess.

[Maple]

42. Please pay attention

the purpose of the movie...was to make a movie.

It was a story, nothing more.

Entertainment.

But as you can see...it wouldn't be that hard to do to fake the thing.

And we aren't talking about satellites or probes to Mars...that crash even today...or go off into space....we are talking specifically about a manned landing on the moon in the 60's

[HFishbine]

45. You

obviously see what you want to see. Paying attention is actually your deficiency. I've never had to do this on DU before, and if I find out you were joking, I'll have been duped, but I cannot tolerate engaging people who will not respond to a direct question, cannot apply logic to a thought progression, and who have an obstinant unwillingness to apply critical thinking to an issue. You're on ignore, and I won't miss a thing. Enjoy your little world.

[Maple]

49. Unable to answer

he runs away and ducks under his bed. LOL

I even scare him so much he has to use the 'ignore' button.

LOL heavens this is a hoot!

Wadda buncha wimps!

[Cush]

28. don't forget

if it was all fake, wouldn't the KGB/USSR have exposed it all? Surely it would have been to their benefit to discredit the US

[AmeriCanadian]

6. Thanks Walt Starr

I agree with you

[Maple]

9. Ahh faith lives

and the question was bogus from the start.

[BigBigBear]

8. No doubt

in my mind.

Here's a compact rebuttal to that beyond-silly Fox thing a year or two ago.

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

[Maple]

10. No one is talking

about any Fox thing.

Nor are we discussing details like wind blowing flags or anything else.

We all know how easily things can be faked on film. Even then.

The point is...beyond faith, and that scratchy film...there is no proof of any of it.

[HawkerHurricane]

14. There is no proof you exist either.

Except for your posts here.
Nor is there proof I exist.
Except for the handful of people on this board who met me on a beach almost a year ago.
Of course, they could be lying.

[BigBigBear]

15. Actually

a fair amount of research has been conducted on the moon rocks, for one. Widely published. I had a professor in college who did some of it.

The Fox special was the culmination of years of speculation about "evidence" the moon landings were faked. Their "evidence" was garbage, and the site I posted debunked all of it.

You should read the website. Perhaps you'll learn something on the subject.

How do you know Kent State happened?

[Maple]

16. Again you 'heard' it

you don't know any of it to be true.

Instead you decide a metaphysical question about the nature of life will do as an answer.

If it's science..then be scientific.

Don't drag unicorns or philosophy into it.

And perhaps you could read my first post.

My training is in science and economics...not in TV reports and web sites.

[HFishbine]

27. Okay, here's your proof.

I know you're going to simply "read" this and I fear that nothing short of you standing on the surface of the moon and seeing these things with your own friggin eyes is goin to convince you, but here goes:

"Tom Murphy wants to know how far it is to the moon. Not just how many miles, or how many feet, or even how many inches. He wants to know to within a millimeter, and that's less than a 25th of an inch."

<snip>

"Their primary method will be something called "laser ranging," and it wouldn't be possible without the foresight of people like Kenneth Nordtvedt. In the 1960s, Nordtvedt, a physicist at Montana State University, came up with an intriguing idea. He reasoned that a series of reflectors on the surface of the moon could be helpful in determining the exact distance between the moon and the Earth.

Light from a laser fired from the Earth could hit a reflector and bounce back. The time it took for the light to travel from Earth to the reflector and back would reveal the exact distance, or at least within a few inches, Nordtvedt argued. That would reveal much about the lunar orbit, and that data could in turn be used to test some of the tantalizing ideas in Einstein's theories.

His idea was convincing enough that NASA sent three arrays of 100 to 300 prisms, called retroreflectors, to the moon during the Apollo program. The prisms reflect light back to its point of origin, and each array is about the size of a suitcase. Two other arrays were delivered to the moon by Soviet unmanned missions.

The retroreflectors allowed scientists to pin down the distance to the moon to within about 10 inches by the early 1970s, and that number was reduced to less than an inch within a decade."

Now, just how in the hell did these devices end up on the moon, or is this another joke too to perpetuate a thirty-five year old hoax for no reason?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/scitech/DyeHard/dyehard020117.html

[Maple]

38. Well these 'devices'

were never mentioned until recently...not in over 30 years or so.

Not until people questioning it became a topic.

You'd have thought they have us all out gawking at it back in the 60's and 70's

[HFishbine]

51. Feeble

No, they have never been called to your attention before, but they were mentioned when they were brought to the moon. You just don't pay attention, which is a traight necessary to live in a vaccuum void of reality. As you will notice from the article (another fact you magnificantly avoid), they were used in the 70's to take distance measurements. Hello? Is anybody home?

[Maple]

53. The whole story is feeble

And oh yes...I was very much paying attention.

Hello? Is anybody home?

Articles can say anything.

[HFishbine]

32. If the

point you're trying to make is something about faith. This is the wrong subject. There's plenty of evidence for those with some modicum of critical thinking skills to recognize the lunar landings as a proveable reality -- not a belief in faith.

[KCDem]

12. Bad Astronomy website

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

http://www.apollo-hoax.co.uk/

Go to either of these sites and read up. They go through the arguments against our having landed on the moon and debunk them, often with demonstrations.

Basically, the problem is that many people assume the Moon is just like earth, and it isn't. Many of the photos look odd, and some people take that as evidence it was faked. However, if you consider the underlying physics, the pictures make sense.

I like the Bad Astronomy page better, and it has a great section explaining the bad science in popular films and TV shows.

On Edit:

The Bad Astronomy site provides many links to other sites, some of which focus on evidence other than video and photographic footage.

[Maple]

19. Sorry been there, done that

and it's about as believable as all the rest of it.

But I can show you nifty sites proving the royal family are lizards, and that UFOs cart people off. LOL

[kentuck]

18. I must confess....

I had my doubts about a spaceship orbiting around the moon, dispatching another lunar landing module - with a return vehicle - golfing and riding around in the vehicle, getting back into the return rocket and going back up to the orbiting vehicle and then returning to Earth. But decades later, in order to get the Lander on Mars, we had to crash it on the surface and hope it survived... :shrug:

[Maple]

22. Exactly

and while I'd dearly like to believe it, and watched every minute of it....nothing to date, no matter the sites or the shows...actually proves it.

It's more a matter of faith than real science.

And by the time we get there ...again?...to check the place...well at the rate we're going, we'll all be dead before it happens and it'll be yet another historical mystery 'Pearl Harbor' 'JFK' 'Iraqi incubators' ...whatever .... no one will ever be sure about.

Maybe that's why the whole space program devolved into a flying bus in close earth orbit.

If we could do it...why don't we?

It sure as hell isn't because of spending some money.

[Jacobin]

21. You may want to consider a membership in the Flat Earth Society

Exactly what part of space travel do you believe has never occurred?

Do you believe there are satellites?

Do you believe the shuttle goes in orbit?

If not there is no help for you.

The moon is only 250,000 miles away.

I was 19 when we first landed on the moon. People were killed in training getting to the moon. Its an insult to their memory for people to be so naive about recent scientific efforts

Look up on a clear night and a dark place and you can see satellites going by..

WHY do you think we COULDN"T have gone to the moon?

People are weird.

[Maple]

25. You might want to consider using your head

I was 23 when it happened.

I saw exactly what you did.

We are discussing a moon landing...not shuttles or satellites.

And neither of us can prove it was anything more than a movie.

My degrees are in science and economics guy.

Perhaps you are just gullible?

Or really really want to believe in Santa Claus.

[KCDem]

44. Are you actually Linux, Maple?

Linux was a highly annoying poster who would initiate threads on scientific topics, and then smack anybody who replied with, "you're not a scientist or engineer; anybody can claim that on the web. So, you don't know what you're talking about."

S/he was eventually banned, and as annoying as Linux was, I assume it was for something other than being a pompous ass.

I have decided that you either (a) want to stir shit up, or (b) are a conspiracy-theory whackjob.

Either way, you clearly can't be convinced without standing on the lunar surface yourself.

Consistently attacking DU-ers is no way to win friends on this board. If you actually have a point you wish to make, this is not the way to do it. Read up, learn.

[BigBigBear]

26. word up, Jacobin

We've gone down a long road when smug dismisiveness is substituted for wisdom.

[Maple]

34. Yes, and smugly dismissing anyone

who asks questions about the science of it....not fairy tales...is hardly wisdom.

[Emperor_Norton_II]

36. Except... you're *not* asking questions about the science of it.

HTH, HAND.

[Maple]

39. I did...several times

I'm just not getting any scientific answers

Just a lot of hooting from the true believers in the peanut gallery.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Maple]

50. Linux? Nope sorry

and no, I didn't hide for a thousand posts.

I'm not even in your country...honestly what a group!

[TXlib]

59. Prove it!

Prove you're not Linux!

Can't, can you?

Yes, the question is ridiculous, but so is the dismissal of all the evidence that we did indeed land on the moon.

[BigBigBear]

61. What;'s the question?

I've studied enough astronomy. Go ahead. What exactly are you uncertain about?

It was your idea to be "scientific". So....what's the problem with the moon landings, from a strictly scientific perspective?

[redwitch]

24. I believe it.

And I also believe it was Buzz Aldrich who punched someone in the nose a year or two ago who said we did not walk on the moon.

[ScreamingMeemie]

31. I will admit I waffle on this one. I had a professor in college who really

had me believing we didn't. I have a dear friend-and DU poster- who almost has me believing we did. I'll get back with you.

[donco6]

33. We did.

This is ridiculous.

[redeye]

35. Okay...

...do you have any grounds to believe that NASA is lying about that? I don't, and in science you never assume a lie unless it is needed (i.e. proven).

[Maple]

40. In politics we never had to assume a lie either

Times change.

[Skip Intro]

41. C'mon, how do you know what you can believe?

If you weren't there, how can you be sure it really happened?

The moon landings, the Kennedy assasinations, the King assasination, the Holocoust, the 2000 selection, the 2002 selection, the first Gulf war, the Lockerbe plane crash, the 9*11 plane crashes, the Kennedy plane crash (off the East coast) the Carnahan plane crash, the Wellstone plane crash, the USS Liberty attack, the Palestinian terrorist attacks, eteffinc.


I don't mean to say any of the official stories aren't accurate, but how can you take them as gospel when we have seen how elaborate and far-reaching the lies of our government, and other world governments, can be?

All you really know is what you've been told. How can you say with any certainty that we sent men to the moon and they walked around up there?

[Jawja]

48. We landed on the MOON!

We walked on the moon, we drove on the moon, we hopped around on the moon, we drove golf balls on the moon!

And I honestly believe that the sight of the Earth from the Moon - that blue jewel hanging in the darkness of space - has transformed our consciousness as humans in ways that we have yet to comprehend.

Before that event, we were the "center of the universe" and masters of the world. After that event, we were tiny and insignificant, living on a delicate balance of water and atmosphere. Suddenly, we were all one living being sharing the same lifeboat.

As someone who was fascintated by the triumph of man on the moon and dreamed of exploration of the beyond, I am deeply saddened and angered by the movement to discredit this wonderous event.

WE LAUNCHED ASTRONAUTS INTO SPACE, FLEW TO, ORBITED, LANDED ON, EXPLORED, AND RETURNED TO EARTH FROM THE MOON!

GET OVER IT!!!

[Maple]

52. Oh well, there's the proof then

You say it loudly....WELL... I'm convinced now.

And so is everybody else.

I mean shouting certainly makes it true.

Sheeeeesh.

[Jawja]

55. How old are you, Maple?

Did you sit in front of a television with your family and watch Neil Armstrong LIVE from the moon(not shouting, just placing emphasis on the word) step on the moon in what was the greatest technological event of the millennium, if not the last 10,000 years?

If I'm a little emotional about the movement to debunk this great American and HUMAN (again, not shouting, but for emphasis) achievement, I offer no apologies to you.

I don't give a goddamn if you're convinced or not.

on edit: And is that all you got from my post, shouting? Did my comments regarding the transformation in human identity just zip right over your head? I thought so.

[Skip Intro]

56. I didn't say we didn't, I just wonder how you can be so sure

I mean, you only saw it on tv, just like 9*11, right?
\
I susupect we did go to the moon, tho I don't believe word one of the "official" 9*11 story.

But how can you really KNOW?

[Jawja]

58. Yes and

I trust David Brinkley, Chet Huntley and Walter Cronkite a lot more then than I do CNN, Faux, BSNBC and the rest.

I think the movement to debunk American and Human achievements in space is one of the most despicable conspiracies I've ever seen. Believe me, I'm a X-File fan and a science "fiction" fan to the core, but the American moon landings were real. It defined a generation.

[Booberdawg]

47. The question seems disingenuous n/t

[Maple]

54. DON'T ASK QUESTIONS IF YOU DON'T WANT

A DEBATE...OR OTHER PEOPLES ANSWERS.

Seems to be a favorite pastime around here for heaven's sakes.

Playing games!

[HawkerHurricane]

60. To answer the question of the original post

Yes, I think we did land on the moon in 1969.