Something has gone badly wrong with DU.

[WilliamPitt]

1. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=174804&mesg_id=174804

2. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=190566&mesg_id=190566

3. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=191761&mesg_id=191761

4. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=190887&mesg_id=190887

5. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=184249&mesg_id=184249

6. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=108490&mesg_id=108490

7. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=105&topic_id=105772&mesg_id=105772

8. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=120&topic_id=2414&mesg_id=2414

9. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=193739&mesg_id=193739

10. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=190887&mesg_id=190887

11. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=189789&mesg_id=189789

12. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=187172&mesg_id=187172

13. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=186640&mesg_id=186640

14. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=181455&mesg_id=181455

15. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=196407

That took two minutes to compile. They are in no particular order.

Two minutes.

Something has gone wrong here, folks. Something bad. I have no idea what it is, or why, or where it started, or how. But this forum, over the course of the last couple of weeks, has become a sewer. Yes, I said it. A sewer.

Look at those threads, and understand that it is a small fraction of what has happened lately. Those threads come not from the 'Gun Dungeon' or I/P. They come from General Discussion, the fucking Lounge, and the fucking Admin forum.

You want to be mad? Be mad. Be mad about the fact that you've been mad for so long that you hardly remember anything else. Be mad about what has happened to your country. Be mad about what we are doing to the world. Be mad about the thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have died here and abroad because of what has happened to your country.

Be mad.

But if we cannot do better than what is represented in the threads above - again, a small sampling - then we do not deserve to win anything. We are just as savage and vicious as the cretins currently running the country, and I say if it is to be a savage country, better to let the real savages run it then a bunch of quasi-altruistic liberals who think they are better but prove day after day that they are not.

I'd be lying if I said my little adventure with my dinner thread (it's up there somewhere) didn't play a part in this. I learned a couple of nasty lessons today about this place. But that is one thread. One thread out of a quick sampling of fifteen.

Thankfully, I am leaving Wednesday for Montana and Seattle. I am devoutly hopeful that my return will bring me back to the excellent place I have loved and participated in for the last 819 days.

It has never been this bad. Ever. Think about it.

If you think I'm scolding you, or telling you what to do, you can flame me to your heart's content. I am going to turn on the TV and get a wee break, so I won't see your flames until Sunday. This is my observation after spending every day here for over two years. Flame on, but I am standing on solid ground here.

Something has gone wrong, and it needs to be fixed.

[dorktv]

1. Well I have only been on for a few weeks and

the virterol towards Dean seemed a little bad...But otherwise I have had a pretty good experience.

[wuushew]

2. I don't see what is wrong with the A-bomb thread

debating the morality of war and nuclear weapons is very relevant to the current administration.


Also I will add that I avoided posting to these topics at all costs given their devisive nature.

[Northwind]

3. Is it the thread subjects you object to

Or the back-and-forth squabbling taking place? What specifically are you objecting to?

[THUNDER HANDS]

11. back and forth squabbling

the name calling and the general abrasive tone, I believe.

I haven't been here as long as Will has, but I too think people really need to take a chill pill sometimes around here.

We're all nice people when we're not angry.

:)

[WillyT]

4. Yep, Apparently The "Bring A Gun To A Knife Fight" Philosophy Has ...

Taken over. And although I'm willing to fight like hell to keep ahold of this great experiment in Democracy, if I choose to pick up the gun, I will think before I shoot.

Apparently some of us don't want to do that.

:shrug:

[KCDem]

5. Will, you're right.

I originally joined DU because of LBN and GD... one for the real news, the other for the commentary. Lately, tho', the Lounge and minor forays into GD are about all I can handle (aside from activism, editorials, etc.)

Yes, the group has turned hostile. Most of it is just due to DISGUST about what is happening in our country. Have you ever heard about how people are nice to strangers but mean to family? I think a lot of people here think of DU as extended family, and, therefore, feel comfortable to be more mean/emotive here. Is that right? No. But it's nature. Think about it, we're all the meanest to those we love the most. That's because we're most at home with them.

Some people are just assholes, pure and simple.

Some really are disruptors. I don't care if someone has 6 posts or 6000. Sure, I'm less likely to trust someone with only a few, but then I don't fully trust those with many, either. You of all people know that the minute this website existed, there were spies among us. We've always been watched. Should we spend every minute/day wondering who they are? No, if we want some sort of sanity. We can't. We can just exist and try to be as much of an accepting, uplifting, encouraging community as possible.

I don't want to name names, because I know I will miss people who deserve credit, but there are many members of this board who do their damndest to contribute to the well-being of everyone on DU. Rather than highlight the assholes among us, let's celebrate what IS good. Maybe, by doing so, we can rise above the name-calling and base emotions that are prevalent now.

Best,
Rebecca

[never cry wolf]

22. I have only been here for 3 weeks or so

and one of those i was on vacay. Isn't that a classic form of disruption though?? getting the opposition to argue amongst themselves? It would not surprise me in the least if that were that case.

Has there been an increase in new signees lately? Maybe there needs to be another forum. No, not one that allows non-progressive points of view but maybe one for controversial subjects. If a thread starts to get to flaming the mods can move it off the more popular forum boards. I don't know quite how else to police it.

Personally, I have no interest in flaming anyone though some of my comments have been flamed. I just let it go. Like I said, I have not been here long but not because my ideals were different. I just didn't know a place like this existed. I am proud to belong to a site with such high ideals and so many intelligent contributors (especially Mr. Pitt) and paid today.

[VermontDem2004]

6. I didn't look through all your links or read your entire

post but what is wrong with having a discussion on a certain issue, I clicked on the first 3 I disagreed with 2 of them but I liked the fact we were discussing them. To me it appears that you want to limit dissent or opinions to fit your view or is my perception completely wrong?

[WilliamPitt]

9. Your perception is completely wrong

and a shortcut to observation.

[VermontDem2004]

31. Ok tell me the problem you have with each on the top 3.

Should Truman have dropped the bomb? Ok, so many people who are against the Iraq War now, are against the bombing of civilians Bush is doing. They may have something to say about what Truman did back then, Me, I have mixed feelings and things like that we should have discussions about.

Is SACUER or Governor of Vermont a tougher job? Ok, this is an educated question that could have thoughtful discussion. A case can be made because being a SACUER is an extremely tough job and not many people can handle being one. Me, I think being a Governor or being a SACUER makes you qualified in your own way.

It is time to drop kick Gray Davis. I disagree but it doesn't mean we shouldn't have a discussion on this issue, appearently many Californians do with 70% of likely voterssupporting the recall. I wish we can debate things even though we may disagree with them, and I don't think something is really bad with DU when issues like this is being discussed.

[ErasureAcer]

33. Perception is reality

You saying his reality is wrong?

Well you have the right to say that...and he has the right to say what he has to say....they're all opinions. No one is either right or wrong.

GET OVER IT.

If you can't recognize people have different opinions you shouldn't be in politics.

It is my perception that you're a political rookie.

haha.

Yes, I can call you a "rookie" to, as you did to me.

I bet now you're going to say "my perception is completely wrong," as well.

haha...and your opinion and reality is the only one that matters...haha(in best Nelson voice).

[Brian Sweat]

104. I don't see what the problem is.

I looked at the titles of the first half a dozen threads on your list and I don't see anything out of the ordinary. I don't have time to read all of those threads, so I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. The only problem I see on DU at this time is this thread.

If you would care to expound upon what you see as a problem, then maybe we would see the light.

[Julien Sorel]

7. That 'something' is called a primary.

There is absolutely no way to keep a lid on peoples' emotions during a time like this, while at the same time, making sure that the candidates are being properly scrutinized. I'd be a little concerned if emotions weren't running high.

[nolabels]

41. Hey BillyBunter, I like them sig line pictures

You can always tell when they want to play top monkey, they strut out their jaw and flash their lower canines

[Julien Sorel]

94. LOL

I hadn't thought of it that way -- I just picked the ugliest picture of them I could find. In the case of some of them, Ashcroft, for example, the competition was pretty fierce ;-) But now that I think of it, you have a good point there.

[ulysses]

8. I don't buy it.

Never been this bad? Sorry, Will, but I've been here nearly as long as you have, and it's been quite a bit worse at times, depending on your point of view.

I've had catfights in GD recently with two folks I consider dear friends and allies. Not necessarily pleasant, but we're all fairly strong-willed people here. We'll live.

[ibegurpard]

10. Hey Pitt

Where in Montana are you coming to?

[kainah]

12. Why I hang out almost exclusively in LBN & the "minor" forums

And in those forums I haven't seen much change. Although, with so many members now, a much higher number of posts have little substance, which I find disappointing. I've always avoided the angry "my philosophy is better than your philosophy" threads because I don't come here to argue, I come here to learn.

On the other hand, something weird drew me to the "no more Texas bashing" thread -- which I'm sure could have been included on your list, if it wasn't. And there I met WyomingDemocrat, a newbie who just switched parties and, as it turns out, lives just around (a few) corners from me. We've never met, never heard of each other but tonight I know there's one more on my side in Laramie, Wyoming. That's a very good thing DU did today.

[Oracle]

26. Dude, it's FUCKED!!!!! Just like the Democratic party...

it's all over the fucking place here...fighting with each other, petty bitching, people thinking it's some cute fucking gameboy forum their on, not understanding how serious, passionate and devoted some people are around here...Just like the Demos...all fucked up with the DNC, DLC and moderates, (fuck, I hate that word.)

You don't see any Republican "moderates," in name only, perhaps...they vote and support the republican agenda all the way.
The republicans are together because their goal is simple and unifying...make, take, steal, pollute and exploit as much money as they can...by lying and cheating and kickass on anyone who disagrees with them, especially liberals, progressives, Democrats, liberated women and minorities---fuck um all! They say and those fuckers are united, always will be, money is the key ...that's why the slime is so hard to beat...MONEY always wins out in the end! MONEY!

I've been here on DU for over two years as well WilliamPitt
and I too am tired of these infantile, sophomoric games and the "MODERATES!!!!"

[never cry wolf]

42. Say it loud!!!

right on, bro.

[Tansy_Gold]

67. I agree

But I think it's the egos of eight of the nine people who are already declared Dem candidates for president -- and the stupidity of the Dem "leadership" for allowing this insane free-for-all to continue.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: McAuliffe should have called a meeting of all nine and said, "Okay, boys and girls, we're gonna have a little week-end meeting. We're gonna decide just which one of you is gonna represent the Democratic party, and then all the other eight are gonna throw their complete and total support behind that person. You'll all have time in the next couple of weeks to bow out gracefully, citing health problems, lack of financial support, or whatever, BUT BY LABOR DAY WEEK-END, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE ONE CANDIDATE AND ONE CANDIDATE ONLY." Or two or three at the most.

Because if McAuliffe doesn't do that, the fights are going to get worse and worse and worse and worse. The Kerry supporters will end up hating the Dean supporters so bad that if one or the other gets the nomination, none of the other's supporters will get behind him. Or Graham or Kucinich or Sharpton or, goodness help us if another one enters the race, Clark.

As bad as it is now on DU, what do you think it's going to be like next March, when the primaries are in full swing, the money is being wasted left and right (and DLC center)? What happens if the Dems go to the convention with no clear front runner? What happens if it goes to umpteen ballots before there's a candidate, ten weeks before the election? And all this time, the bushnazis roll along, scooping up money, buying up ad time, greasing their way to complete and totalitarian victory.

It is indeed a fucking mess, and I don't think DU has helped. That's one of the reasons I've stayed out of most discussions the past few months. There are no compromises any more. The Dean people hate the Kerry people, and the Graham people hate the Clark people, and no one likes Lieberman (except maybe Carlos, ugh) but most of us say we'd even vote for him if it came down to Joe or bush.

Given that McAuliffe isn't going to do shit to save this election, I say anyone who isn't polling at least 15% by Labor Day ought to do her/himself, the Dem party, and the nation a favor by dropping out AND throwing their support to another candidate. Sure, sure, I know, the idea is that primaries allow the PEOPLE to pick the candidate, but criminitly, look what a wonderful business that has turned into! And like, do we really have that luxury any more? Really?

No, folks, I think we need A candidate and we need her/him NOW. And I know that is just an invitation to a flamefest, as everyone rushes to shout the praises of her/his favorite.

But can we please step back for ten minutes and look to see which two or three candidates honestly represent viable possibilities for emerging as the nominee best capable of beating the awol asshole, not just on DU but in the general electorate? Can we think critically about what ammunition the repukes can muster against each candidate in a presidential campaign? Can we evaluate the chances each one has for not only getting the hard-core Democratic base, but also the disaffected liberal/progressive/Green wing AND/OR the anti-bush moderate Republicans? (There are probably a lot more of the disaffected on the left who could be brought into the equation with a liberal/progressive candidate than there are swing repukes, but I'll leave that argument to the experts.)

The point is, arguing amongst ourselves is an enormous waste of time and energy, but we don't have any alternative. We can't follow a leadership that doesn't exist.

And that seems to be indicative of how truly fucked we are.

On the other hand, and speaking as one who is old enough to have children of voting age, I think another reason why DU is such a pit these days is that it's been invaded by a bunch of youngsters who don't know beans about history, politics, or anything else and they frustrate the hell out of us oldsters who have already dealt with some of these issues, i.e. Truman and the bomb, quagmires, Nixon, Southern Baptists, etc. Many of these kids probably aren't even old enough to vote, or maybe 2004 with be their first. WE OWE IT TO THEM AND TO OURSELVES TO GET THEM EDUCATED ON THE ISSUES EVEN IF IT MEANS BEING PATIENT WITH THEIR IGNORANCE.

It also means not leaping to the flame bait of southern bashing, Christian bashing, Green bashing, etc.

Learn to ignore that shit. Just walk away. More flames won't put out the fire.

Better yet, walk away from DU for a few hours a day and do something productive, like volunteering for a candidate in your community, or as a few have done, running for office yourself. Write a letter to the editor. And another. And another. Read a book and write a review of it for an online 'zine.

The world is ruled by those who get involved, not those who whine.


What would Wellstone do?

Peace,

Tansy Gold

[Eloriel]

76. Forget with you!!

As my son used to say (and I always thought it sounded mildly obscene).

No! The PEOPLE get to pick the nominee. How anti-democratic of you.

Bah!

Eloriel

[Trajan]

88. Well Eloriel ? ...

EITHER its back room deals while smoking cuban stogies and drinking single malt, .... or bench clearing brawls like those disavowed by none other than Will Rivers Pitt ....

I dont wrong someone for wanting an END to the internecine fighting ... it IS getting nasty in the pits here .... and it would be NICE to enjoy the more serene moments were used to enjoy here at DU ... (cough cough ... ) ....

And to think: .... this is going to go on through march ....

HUGE sighs ....

Some say they will leave, if only til the end of the primary season .... Frankly: .. I think it is par for the course to have to hash it out over EVERY point ... to scratch, kick and bite for EVERY argument presented by EVERY supporter of WHATEVER candidate ....

This is the political waterhole, ... and the animals are getting mighty thirsty ....

I RARELY disagree with William Rivers Pitt, .... but here we differ: .. human nature is human nature: .. it will not be stopped, ... even if it can be altered ....

SOMEHOW ... SOMEWAY .... the level of rancor MUST be degraded .... The polity of discourse should be preserved here at DU ... even in disagreement ....

But to think that, in the height of the political season, as we slide into the primaries, that simple human beings like ourselves will somehow temper the rising anger and frustration by will alone; THAT is a REAL tall order .... I greatly doubt that DUers will ratchet down the pressure, if they believe they will 'lose' the argument ...

Its gonna be a long haul til March .... I would recommend a good bowlload and a stiff drink to ALL who come to partake of the debates .... and to personally decide that WE(DUers) are the problem when WE insist we are always right ...

There are no easy answers to this problem: .. obviously: ... having Terry McAuliffe settle the contest MIGHT sound reasonable to those who desire some peace and quiet .... but as you said: .. that isnt very democratic ....

So: ... I suppose we buck it up, .. try to be nice ... try to grow an even THICKER skin ... and participate in Democracy as nicely as possible ....

IF that is possible ..... I doubt it ....

[bearfartinthewoods]

110. are you freakin' nuts?

9 people get to chose who runs? what about Clark or anyone else who decides to rnter. sweet jeezus.....it's not the candidates fault. they are doing precisely what they are supposed to be doeing. it's the fault of the stupid people here who don't have the patience to allow the process to run it's course. it's the sports/team mentality.
it's the my guy is the only guy bullshit.

AND to be perfectly frank, some people here are probably lifelong haters.

i firmly believe the only way they relate to the outside world is via hatred. when it was just hatred of bush, it wasn't a problem but now that there are candidates involved, they hate the candidates (other than their own) and hate the people who support the candidates.

Pitt's 'date thread' revealed that they also hate anyone who differs from them self. personally, my jaw dropped at the title and i gulped as i read on because she-bear and i had just splurged on 17 bucks worth of scallops for our own celebration but for sure i didn't post the kind of crap that people poled onto Pitt.

hey... life shovels it onto people sometimes. sometimes they can't hold up under the strain. their first reaction is to strike out with agression and hate. this isn't news to anyone.

but to try and solve what is a people problem by trying to change the
american political process back to the ole' smoke filled back rooms is absolutely nutty.

[BansheeBarbie]

13. There Are Some GREAT Posts Too

Did you read the one "I'm The Son of God, Ask Me Anything" in the Lounge?

I didn't even notice any of those threads you mentinoned cause they're so easy to ignore.

It helps to gravitate to threads that seem to have a more thoughtful or whimsical subject line.

And if you see blood in the water, get the heck out!

[gully]

28. BansheeBarbie?

Great posts: Im the son of god ask me anything? hmmmm???

[BansheeBarbie]

53. There Are Some Very Thoughtful Posts

on that thread. And some funny ones as well. Jesus Christ actually had some interesting answers!

In my Bible study group we laugh and joke quite a bit.

Levity is one way to escape the bounds of the despair.
It also brings people together.

[Trajan]

89. He said there were great posts ....

I read some good ones ....

You picked an unrepresntative post, and held it as exemplar of ALL posts, which really inst fair .... when it was in fact ONE bad thread out of hundreds of good ones ...

Sweeping generalization fallacy .... The people of DU are good people, with a few bad seeds here and there ..... NOT all are bad .... some are good, which was the original point you attempted to discount ....

[Clete]

14. The disruptors are becoming more clever I think.

I notice that I am defending my liberal ideas a lot more than previously.

[havocmom]

15. Hey, Will...

could ya try to bring some rain with you as you head to Montana? And maybe wave as your planes zooms over the eastern part of the state? I promise to be generally polite on the boards.

You are right about the attitudes here lately. I find myself not bothering with most threads anymore. That is bad, as I may be missing a lot of important info. Am sure there are others doing the same.

We need to get our collective heads outta our tushies and concentrate on being the good guys as this board is getting pretty famous. Letting off a bit os steam is one thing, but remember, the whole world is watching. It would be constructive to stay, well, constructive. As we used to say in the 60s, if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[juajen]

69. I couldn't agree more,

The knock down dragout fights are really boring and seem to be geared, at least part of the time, to diminishing the original thread. I usually get out of these and go to one with substance. Unfortunately, sometimes the original thread's purpose gets lost, and I hate to miss a good discussion. Still, I wouldn't trade this forum for any other.

Will, maybe you're just having a bad day. My brother lives in Missoula; says it's very smokey there right now. He had to get an air conditioner for the smoke and the heat. Of course, it's getting down in the low 50's, maybe even into the high 40's there over the next couple of nights, but, wow, the days are sorta bad right now. They are just not used to it being quite that hot. Being from Louisiana, I should feel for him, right. LOL. Of course, they have had a rough summer. Hope you have a great time in "Big Sky" country, and look forward to your posts, as always.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

16. Will...

tightening my :tinfoilhat: and i agree....phew! i never clicked on any of those threads until now...except for #3 in defense of Davis

is my nose brown enough? :7

[ulysses]

35. it needs to be said

that speculation about whether or not there's a mole in the mod corps is likely to do far more damage than any such mole would do.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

39. ok i retract the beg ....subject line...or is that redact?

:shrug:

[Kahuna]

17. I thought something was wrong with that Jesus poster and all of you

including you, Will, who posted on it. But that's just me.

[Blue_Chill]

25. So did I

But....this is DU. Not the place I joined a while back. Nope this place has changed big time.

[corgigrrl]

18. I don't even need to look, to know what you mean

I have to say that visiting DU or Smirking Chimp lately has gotten under my skin. it used to be my refuge, and a delight, and now I have to brace myself to log on ... to see what vitriol and other sewage will be vomited on the candidate I am currently supporting (who will be nameless here, lest the whole nasty cycle start up again right here).

This is not a friendly place to be anymore. And, just to be age-ist and throw a bomb, I think some of our younger posters who haven't lived thru three or four presidential cycles ... well, we need to remember who the real enemy is.

The enemy is not Howard Dean.

The enemy is not John Kerry.

The enemy is not Dennis Kucinich.

The enemy is not supporters of any of the other Democratic candidates.

And dare i espouse a truly radical idea: the enemy is not all the folks who voted for the person now at 1600 Penn. Ave. Some of those people are looking at their papers and shaking their heads, and going, "Huh? This is not what I voted for."

If we want to take back our country, we're going to need some Greens, some Independents and some of the people in the paragraph above who are shaking their heads and wondering who they thought GWB was.

So let's start by having civilized discussions about our candidates. I have been guilty of saying things like DK gives me the creeps. Let's be more advanced than that. Let's imagine, every time we post, that we are making an argument to FDR, or JFK, or John Adams, or whoever you admire the most. Because that's who -- for the most part -- your fellow DUers are. Let's be smart, quick, always argumentative, and always above the fray.

[gulliver]

19. A lot of divisive stuff and navel contemplating lately

I really detest these threads that have nothing to do with promoting Democrats and other progressives. They do nothing to kick Bush out of office. They don't raise Dem spirits and strengthen our arguments. They just use up energy and divide us.

I can't believe anyone for Dean would hate Clark or Kucinich or any of the others. Bush has got to go.

[WillyT]

20. Hey Will II...

I posted this earlier, and it went rather well:

Link: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=195322

But check out post #5. He was going to post it, but thought he'd be shot to hell by the rest of US. I must admit I had the same feeling, but thought 'what the hell'. It was a GREAT speech, and I too miss the days when people would only blast you for: no link, bad logic, or true trolling.

Nowadays, we seem to be accusing our former allies of everything under the sun. Group dysfuction at work, perhaps???

:shrug:

[gully]

21. food for thought below...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#bigotry

"Do not post racist, sexist, homophobic, ethnic, anti-religious, or anti-atheist bigotry. Unambiguous expressions of bigotry will be deleted, and will often result in the immediate banning of the individual responsible.

When discussing race, gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity, or religion, please exercise the appropriate level of sensitivity toward others and take extra care to clearly express your point of view. This will help avoid misunderstandings and undeserved accusations of bigotry..."

It seems certain kinds of bigotry are 'allowed'...??? Liberals wouldn't generally express negative views about gender, race, ect...but apparently religion, southern states and other subjects are fair game?

Couple of examples below...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=106088&mesg_id=106088

This was just a response to the first...but?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=108770&mesg_id=108770

Not to trash the thread starters. There just appears to be an un-healthy culture here?

[never cry wolf]

30. I disagree that the

"i am the son of God" thread is anti religious. It is funny as hell but really the poster is doing a great job answering as I believe for the most part the real Jesus would as I was taught as a youngun.

for the second thread, just a spoof of the first.

[gully]

51. I felt it was offensive to Christians.

As an agnostic/christian/unitarianish person, I felt it was, and I'm not easilly offended. :shrug:

[BansheeBarbie]

55. How Is That Thread Anti-Religious?

???

I put a great deal of my personal energy into Spritual practices and found that refreshing and somewhat insightful!

It's amazing how we all can percieve one others words and intentions
so differently.

[Castilleja]

71. I really thought that was a cool thread

and not anti-religious, but very clever and I enjoyed it!

[Booberdawg]

23. Creative disrupters

Will set up specious arguments and people fall for them. Have noticed a pattern with a couple in particular ....

Then there are a few honest to goodness liberals who just like to stir the pot. Being an asshole is an equal opportunity affliction.

[JanMichael]

24. So we've met the enemy and the enemy is us?

Not quite. Never as bad as the true vermin in the WH and Congress, never.

So some threads are offensive? So some people got their collective panties in a twist?

So what? For ever dumbassed thread that you posted there are ten that aren't so biased, insensitive, and obnoxious.

Try not to be so sensitive Will, thicker skin is needed in these troubled times.

Have a nice trip, hope it goes well.

[gully]

27. I think if there are user rules, they should be enforced?

I'm sure the mods are busy, but it seems fair game.

I recall a poster saying he was leaving and the response was largley, don't let the door hit you in the a$$. What a pathetic demonstration of community.

Which is why again I ask what the 'shared goals' of DU'ers are? Until goals are determined, it's difficult to know up from down...

[CanuckAmok]

29. Here's how I feel... If anyone's interested....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=105&topic_id=108815


In part...

"...You're all chiseling out the America you want to live in, the best way you can, and what you all have in common is you all come HERE to do that. I would think that objective would be best served by y'all supporting eachother a little more, and uniting against the Common Enemy (who needs not be named on this thread ) ..."

[JasonBerry]

32. I agree - Seems to me..........

that there is little room lately for civil discourse on serious subjects. Too many threads disintegrate into silly, immature personal attacks. Just witness the threads on regional bigotry of late as an example. I agree with your post and glad you took the time to write it.

[LeftCoast]

34. I would, respectfully, disagree

About two weeks ago my partner and I were the victims of two hate crimes. Needing someone to talk to, a place to vent, I talked about it here on DU. The response was strong, supportive and really made a difference for me.

The threads you highlight show vigorous discussion of some touchy subjects. We're a community of some 30,000 now. Diverse opinions abound. Some of us are shy, some are witty and some are just plain cranky.

DU is an electronic version of the ancient Greek's agora, the marketplace where much community discussion took place. In all of human history, we have never had such an amazing opportunity to freely exchange and discuss ideas. It is the agora to the nth power. The unfortunate downside is that when everyone has a voice, not all the conversations are nice, nor intelligent.

Take wisdom where you can, the rest try to let roll off your back.

[bicentennial_baby]

36. Hey LeftCoast!!

How ya been? I was thinking about you today, b/c I had'nt seen you around much the last week or so. How are you guys doing out there?

:hi:

[LeftCoast]

45. Howdy b_b!

PM sent to ya so I don't 'jack Will's thread. :)

:hi:

[bpilgrim]

43. ditto

shoot will i am damn PROUD of that wwII thread ;->

peace

[caledesi]

37. I am sick of the Yak and Ask-me-anything & total nonsense threads...

:mad:

[Liberal Veteran]

100. Well, the upshot is, those are in the lounge....

...So you can easily avoid them.

[kentuck]

38. It's a time of divisiveness...

Primarily because many have chosen their favorite candidate and wish to promote their favorite and to tear down the others. This does nothing but create tension on the board. It is totally unnecessary. We can be critical without being angry and mean-spirited but it has almost become contagious.

Then we have those "superiority" posts that for some reason or another (Civil War) believe themselves superior to other people in other regions of the country. There must be another way to criticize people without pissing off half the people on DU?

Perhaps it comes with the growth of the website? However, I don't see why the quality has to go down. I'm not so sure that it has? There are simply more critical posts because there are more people making posts. Some posts can disappear from GD in less than 5 minutes sometimes. We just need to be aware that words have colors. Some are red and lovely - some are green and poison.

[mandyky]

40. We have some disruptors and trolls, I think

Somehow, maybe by lying low in DU Longue or some other means, we have a few moles who rack up enough posts to "seem" ok to mods.
I don't know what this war between the states is about, or dropping Abombs, and much else of what passes for General Discussion these days.

I'm all for bringing back those trial temporary rules we had a while back, until people start at least trying to act like an adult, and have meaningful civil discourse here.

[gully]

44. Me too!

With the exception of the 5 line rule... and perhaps a non-sense thread can be blocked from the main page?

[TheWatcher]

60. Disruptors to be sure.....

I'm relatively new to DU but I've been parrying on Usenet and n Internet Discussion Boards for the past seven years, and you get pretty good at noticing disruptors.....

There is one in particular that I cannot BELIEVE no one has called out, and I'm pretty sure most know who I am talking about.....All you have to do is look at the writing style and you can TELL that person is not here for the common good.....I'm sorry, it's been bugging me for two days....This guy is playing factions of supporters of certain candidates againsr each other, and I can't BELIEVE people didn't see how the Sack Davis thread was not a TOTAL Bait-Trap.....

Classic Divide and Conquer.....

Guys, the most dangerous thing that can happen to a forum like this is for disruptors to have everyone figting each other.....It's true that this is Primary Season, and emotions are running high....And in a community like this one, sure there are going to be dissagreements, even among close friends, but DO NOT let people here whose sole purpose is to play everyone against one another, cause divisivness and divisions that should not be there.....

Don't forget who the true adversary is....

While we never all agree on everything, we are living through perhaps the most critical moments in this country's history, a time that could decide the future of this country's current model of government.....Whether it lives or dies.....

Our very way of life is at stake....The players running the show are among the most ruthless, dangerous, morally bankrupt and power-drunk meglomaniacs that have ever walked this planet.....They have stolen your country, and now they want the rest.....

The LAST thing we need to do is tear each other apart and destroy ourselves from within.....

No matter WHAT our differences, we all need to be united in one goal....

To take our Country BACK....To take it back from the thieves that stole it.....To RESTORE our democracy, our freedoms, and our liberties that are in danger of DISSAPPEARING forever....To FIGHT for what is right and to RIGHT what has gone so horribly wrong.....

The hour is late, and time is running out.....This is not the time to lose focus and lose sight of our goals.....

No matter who we choose to take this fight to the little bastard who has squatted in OUR house, stole the election, started unjust wars in our name, stole our civil liberties, and destroyed our credibilty in the world community for a few pieces of silver, no matter where the path to next Novemeber leads us.....

WE MUST STAND TOGETHER....

Do not let a few troublemakers distract you from the task at hand.....

The have gotten more clever, and they can Divide.....

But you MUST not let them conquer....

Stick TOGETHER people....

It's time to Make WE THE PEOPLE mean something again....

It's OUR country....Not THEIRS to do with as they please.....

It starts HERE in our community.....If we can't keep it together here, we won't have a chance in Hell out there....

TOGETHER we can accomplish anything.....

DIVIDED we will lose EVERYTHING.....

And I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't like to lose.....

This time the price is too high if we fail....

I support DU, and I stand with all of you because I beleive we can win this fight, and because I know we HAVE to.....

And we will win TOGETHER.....

TheWatcher

[Castilleja]

72. TheWatcher, I think you have nailed it

I have seen the same things, sometimes from people I have never seen before, sometimes from longtime posters. I see much more of it going on just lately. I also think there may be people from various campaigns who come here to talk up their candidate, thereby starting alot of crap by bashing another candidate. Some people are just not being considerate, but I think it is mostly those whose sole intention is to disrupt.

[juajen]

73. Good post

I concur. We certainly need to keep our eye on the ball. Save one, I honestly like all our candidates, and I usually keep that opinion to myself. I think they represent some very good democratic constituents and I certainly can and will back any dem against *. What these sparring threads do is take us away from useful discourse. It is a little more time consuming these days to carefully choose threads. However, there are still some very good threads and writers, of which Mr. Pitt is certainly one. I, for one, would miss his writing dreadfully if he went away. So, please don't go anywhere, Will. You're needed now more than ever.

In the meantime, we all need to be thinking about what we can do to support democratic principles, democratic candidates, organize, organize, etc. We have some very great activists. I don't think DU is going to go anywhere. Perhaps we, who read more than post, should take up our "pen" and flood these disrupters out?

Edited for spelling.

[diamond14]

63. there are a HUGE number of reTHUGlicans who have hijacked

this board...their posts all follow the same little scam...and are very repetitive...the reTHUGlicans found a scam that works, in that people feel obliged to respond to the audacity of their post...then they fuel it and continue it...basically keeping the decent people at DU from carry-on normal conversations about politics and defeating shrub...it must be something they learned over at rush-ville....

[pfitz59]

46. Donald Segretti lives.......

and posts on DU! We are at war, and DU is but one battlefield! Why does Shrub need $150 million to run in an UNOPPOSED primary! Subterfuge, deception and misdirection........

[tom_paine]

85. n/a

n/a

[sandnsea]

47. Free-floating anxiety

We're all feeling pretty desperate. We all feel that the next election could seal a fate to despicable to dare think of. Not only that, we are being pushed closer and closer to making the most difficult decision, stay or go.

The election season is here and our own views of where the Democratic Party has gone wrong has been simmering and is now starting to boil over. We are all certain that particular issues and candidates could make or break the election, positively or negatively. Then there are those who want to dump the Democrats all together and wage an attack from the outside.

So we're biting and scratching at each other, trying to ensure the 'right' candidate with the 'right' message makes it to the top.

Perhaps we could post the Serenity Prayer where we'd remember it at least once a day:

(insert god of choice) grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
Wisdom to know the difference.

Peace to all.

[RMJ]

90. I agree.

We're all in "outrage overload." The * administration puts so much crap out there, hoping that we'll eventually get so tired of fighting, that we'll just give up.

Everytime I pick up a newspaper, or watch the news, or check DU, I get furious at some new horror being perpetrated on my country or my world. Being an American during the * admnistration is exhausting.

When our nerves are stretched that taut, it's no wonder we're fighting and sniping at each other.

[kentuck]

48. I think there is a place for "nonsense" threads...

People are stressed. The DU lounge has always been a place where people get a little crazy. I recall several months ago people complained because they talked too much about sex in the Lounge - I mean it got pretty graphic...but that too passed...and so will this.

[shance]

49. Distractors, Freepers and/or Anti- Deaners

the threads have been "dumbed down" by all of this ineffective, division creating, solution halting stuff.

There has been a pretty furious entourage of divisive, manipulative, ignorant and insulting threats that are bent on limiting the effectiveness of DU.(towards Democrats, we should reserve the right to criticize Repubs, after all we are Democratic Underground).

A possible solution:

DU'ers should hit the alert icon when there is an thread that pointlessly attacks a Dem, or distracting anti-Democratic threads like you mentioned above, and moderators will begin to see a pattern of the usual deceptive and divisive threads and should then toss the person out after say five or so threads.

Theres nothing wrong about criticizing a candidate for something valid or even a cautionary thread about a candidate, but overall, certain individuals that throw the most continuously critical threads at a chosen one or two eventually show their true colors. Im sure alot of these people are from Republicanville. I have nothing against Republicans coming around as long as they dont attempt to covhertly or overtly attack the quality of discussion on GD or anywhere else. And of course many will try.

Another thing is for a moderator who has a "feel" for a poster who has been posting continuous garbage can always lock or post an Ignore for the rest to see that it looks like another divisive thread, and can leave it up to the members if they want to post or not. And it gives a heads up to those who dont regularly see the poster.

[gully]

50. I like your idea...

I also wonder if they need more mods?

[On the Road]

52. Will, It's the Same Process Left Unchecked

Everyone complains when the mods clamp down, so maybe they backed off for awhile. Or maybe a lot of DUer's learned how to flame within the rules so as to almost get barred but not quite. Maybe another round of reprimands and deleted posts would help. A few people get mad and quit, but if they're the ones causing the problem the whole community gets reinforced. (And it has to do with style, not enforcing a certain platform.)

The sniping has been there all along. What I think is lost is a sense of the smaller close-knit community that existed in early 2001, when many of us felt alone in our sense of anger and betrayal. We need more socialization, although it's hard to do when we're spread out so thinly.

And this is one of the most contentious times. Democrats attack fellow Democrats during the primary season. Once a leader emerges and people adapt to that, the community will come together. A year from now it will be better.

Of course, a year after that, under a Dem President, who knows? We may be back to splitsville. But the success of the fundraising drive is a testament to people's commitment.

[Toby109]

54. Anger is a gift.

(sorry Will). We just need to channel it better. We do need these battles because the Bushites are gonna hit us with much worse in the coming year.

Be prepared. -Boy Scout motto

[twilight]

56. Will Pitt ...

I must agree with you. So much for being against the war and violence in the streets. I swore I wouldn't be posting anymore after an idiotic experience of the highest degree yesterday.

Seems the admin. is quick to delete messages that don't exactly "fit" the reality around here at times.

It bothers me tremendously and I've been around awhile now myself.

Violence breeds violence. When will people ever learn?

Maybe people are so horribly brainwashed and fearful that they that have learned to embrace the lynch law society in America. I frankly do not know any more and I am disgusted indeed.

Don't you love the gun threads as we lose more and more of our young people in a bogus war that has come to be via hated of self and worship of the BFEE? America really needs to clean up its act, otherwise it is doomed.

I think I'll be hiding out for a long long time myself. One thing is for sure - no more donations from me; enough is enough you are right.

:dem:

[Merlin]

57. I agree. Several things are happening simultaneously.

First, a lot of newbies, some with favorite axes to grind.

Second, some freepes trying to open old wounds, rehash old arguments and generally split us up and set us fighting among ourselves. (The freepes think this weakens us. They have not grown up in Irish Catholic families and do not realize it actually makes us stronger.)

Third, some legitimate issues that you are sensitive to, such as those Catholic threads. Catholics must learn to accept the fact that because the Papacy has become such a right wing player in US politics, it--not Catholic beliefs, not Jesus, not all Catholics--it, the Vatican, is a legitimate target of political discussion and criticism. Catholics must learn to separate themselves from their Vatican, and hopefully some day will learn to speak out against the right wing cabal that runs it and their Church.

We Democrats have always struggled with these multitudes of side issues in our politics. It is part of having a big tent, being tolerant of others' views, hearing all sides. It winds up being a source of strength, though it is messy.

Will, most of what you're seeing is just human nature--aggravated by a natural consequence of the recent doubling in size of the board and all the new voices are among us. Learn to ignore and generally let children be children when you don't like a thread. People need a chance to gain their own understandings of what to participate in.

As we get closer to the '04 election, then I think it's fair to reign many of these topics in via calls for party unity.

[twilight]

58. yeah, I think I'll puke if I see another Catholic bashing thread

What is the point of this? It angers me because I was born and raised a Catholic.

The Palenstine/Israel discussions were stopped and now find refuge elsewehre because they weren't "appropo" I guess. I think it has gotten out of hand.

Tha is perhaps because as another poster mentioned - lots of new people and probably and infiltration of right wingers looking for a beef is my only guess.

However, I agree, I really don't care if you are a virgin or whatever. That is not the point of this forum. If you are looking for a pick-up, try the local bar! :grr:

Peace ...

twilight

:dem:

[EV1Ltimm]

59. you made a similar post this time last year.

i remember it. the title was along the lines of "you all can go to hell" or something to that effect. i also remember one post from it stating "yet again, mr. pitt has conjured up another verbal fart."

here we have the man, the myth, "the" will pitt totally lambasting the participants of this board with sharp and critical dialog... only to be followed up by a smart ass that likened it to flatulence.

and it drew an interesting cross section of this board...

we have the serious posters and the not-so-serious posters. scholars and half-wits. theologians and atheists, communists and capitalists. black, white, short, tall on and on and on. we're a melting pot not only of race or religion, but of ideas, beliefs and opinions.

we're all drawn here to read other viewpoints from our fellow dems or greens respectively. but to think that all 30 some-odd thousand of us are going to constantly write highly charged, politically correct, life-altering epics that everyone will find non-offensive and agree with totally is not only naive, it's almost ridiculous.

respectfully,

- timm

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

61. Language really does shape culture doesn't it

[Ellen Forradalom]

62. That "something" is called entropy

and it's part of the life cycle of a newsgroup, BBS, or discussion board.

Participatory resources like DU have a life span. It is launched, attracts early adopters; some begin to stand out as regulars; more are attracted, traffic becomes busier and more confusing; the circle of users begins to spread as awareness of it grows. The group, due to its size, becomes more prone to schism; rules become more rigid; users chafe under the rules, and a few dysfunctional personalities persist in disrupting the life of the board. Eventually, total breakdown occurs. A group splinters off and starts a new resource. And so another entity is born.

[BigMcLargehuge]

64. Jeez Will, this thread makes me feel like I'm in "The Thing"

I am only addressing you because you started the thread, this is pretty much for everyone.

Everyone venting about someone else... someone else's thread... i'm offended.. you're offended... Is there a plant in the Mods... Who's a Freeper... Jeez, I feel like MacReady holding a flamethrower and a hot wire over a petrie dish of blood.

One of the greatest lessons I ever learned as a kid was If you want to stay out of trouble, stay away from where you know trouble happens. When I see a thread title that bugs me, or thread content that bugs me, I walk away. I was ambushed in one thread, but I got out of it with no hard feelings, then I went on to somewhere with less chance of trouble. It's hard to disrupt if no one is paying attention. Right now a few select people seem to have their reactionary radar on and literally leap into every questionable thread with two fists flying.

Um... doesn't this just inflame the situation? If someone throws a post about Dean, Kucinich, Jesus, Atomic Bombs, or expensive dates and it gets your dander up why not count to ten before typing a single character. It works wonders for me. And if you HAVE to say your piece, then don't prolong the battle. Say your piece then go read another thread. Why argue if you KNOW it's going to be uncivilized?

Stupidity is defined as repeating the exact same actions and expecting a different result. The solution is simple. Don't be stupid. Keep your attack radar turned off. Develop a sense of humor. Remember, we have a job to do and we can't do it if we're snapping at each others asses.

My two cents.

That and a buck will get you a small coffee at 7-11.

[OrdinaryTa]

65. Will Pitt Leads By Example

Will Pitt, originator of a thread entitled Kiss My Alabama Ass, is urging his fellow DU'ers to reflect an additional 10 seconds before pressing the "Post message" button.

Point taken, Will. I'll keep it in mind.

[Generic Other]

66. The atmosphere has changed dramatically

I would attribute some of the disruption to these factors:

1) Some of Bev's threads have attracted some vicious posters who clearly seem to be out to discredit her. Her cookie list alone makes my hair stand on end! Proof that THEY are watching.

2) I have read several links to posts at other military game oriented rightwing forums whose members have plotted to infiltrate and disrupt. They evidently think of it as a game.

3) The campaign season is heating up, and as candidates begin to engage each other, so will their supporters.

4) Since the Repubs have no primary candidates, they may focus on disrupting Dems. They will try to take advantage of our weaknesses to spread dissention and despair. They will try and manipulate us into making choices favorable to them.

5) The probability that paid operatives have been sent to disrupt liberal threads, spread misinformation, and discourage participants from expressing views is high. We must not let down our guard.

Clearly, DU is not the innocent, freewheeling friendly little community it once was. But that doesn't mean we can't watch out for each other, cover each other's backs. Everyone knows one or two DUers you trust. If you see others jumping them in dark alleys, whistle the alarm.

And remember, DU was always right, from Day One. And so were DUers. We weren't fooled then. We aren't going to be fooled now.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

70. DAMN FINE POINTS ALL OF THEM!

:thumbsup:

[dweller]

75. #5 : totally anonymously

they can be here. I saw threads asking the mods if one could contribute (does this gain privileges like search?) without giving any personal info, and so...
I don't mean this to point a finger at anyone. But i have to wonder why if no DU'er would ever know who, only the mods, why care? It's their board and rules tho, and i joined knowing them.
jeez, karl rove could gain membership, drop some $$, never give any personal info, and have polls up here in a minute.

okay, back to my :tinfoilhat: , spaceblanket, etc.
dp

[BurtWorm]

78. Do you have links?

2) I have read several links to posts at other military game oriented rightwing forums whose members have plotted to infiltrate and disrupt. They evidently think of it as a game.

Someone posted something about this a few weeks ago. I hate to sound paranoid but I have a suspicion about one particular poster whose name shall go unmentioned. Just want to see if these guys are strategizing the game online.

[WoodrowFan]

99. It's Me isn't it?

I KNEW it, Mother told me you were out to get me!! They said I was paranoid but I KNEW IT!! :silly:


Just teasing but pleas ebe careful, I was called a freeper after my very first post and I almost didn't return. I'm glad I did but Dems tend to fight other Dems, remember what Will Rodgers said, "I don't belong to an organized political party, I'm a Democrat."

Actually I think most freepers would eventually out themselves even if they try to hide it. And if they manage to mimic us so well that we never notice, then where's the harm??

[BurtWorm]

108. I hear ye.

Course it ain't yew, WoodrowFan.

I am trying to be careful. I wouldn't mind "the suspect" knowing he or she is suspected, though. (Did I already give away the suspect's suspected gender? Here's a hint: If you think I think it's a female, guess again!)

The point is, Will's point is well taken. DU has changed recently. A handful of posters are consistently using their posting privileges to stir things up. That's no way to have a useful environment for progressive dialogue.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. Strongly Disagree With 1

1) Some of Bev's threads have attracted some vicious posters who clearly seem to be out to discredit her. Her cookie list alone makes my hair stand on end! Proof that THEY are watching.

I see the reverse, actually, which is to say a sort of "how dare you" intolerance directed toward anyone who expresses skepticism toward Ms. Harris' claims.

I absolutely applaud her for the work she's done in getting this important information out there, but I also think that many here have asked legitimate questions and expressed reasonable doubts. As I've often said, that is IMO a good thing, as it helps hone the thesis and expose issues that the RW will certainly attack.

Obviously, YMMV. But regardless, I'm not particularly fond of the attitude I've seen here coming from some of Ms. Harris' supporters.

DTH

[argonne]

68. Next Sunday?..........

Your thread will be on page one hundred+ and never seen again after Tuesday morning...

As an experiment I looked at the threads started in GD just TODAY and it is NINE pages of new threads long.

I never read anything past page one....it's just too much.

DU needs better organization.

[Nevernose]

74. If we ALL agreed on everything ALL the time

We'd be REPUBLICANS!

The following paragraph was in my original post:
Although, to be fair, name-calling is alittle out-of-line, not to mention childish...but overall I find the level of discourse here at DU to be pretty good, and probably as good as it's always been (and I've been reading/posting here as long as Pitt has).

I'd like to take that back now. Haven't really read anything on the board in a few days. There is some seriously weird freeper-type shit going on around here.

God, I can't wait for school to start again so all the Hitler-youth-corps kids will have something better to do than screw around over at DU.

[w4rma]

77. A small minority of DUers need to learn how to treat folks with *respect*.

I see folks who post exagerated lies about candidates and when called on them they don't apologize or admit they are wrong, they go to another thread and post the same exact thing, where the same thing happens, again.

I see folks who seem to dwell on an irrational and obsessive personal vendetta against one or more Democratic candidates. These folks need to get a handle on their emotions and calm down.

I see threads full of little trite remarks against fellow DUers and Democratic candidates. This small minority of DUers need to learn how to treat others with *respect*.

Thank you for starting this much needed thread, WilliamPitt.

[Individualist]

111. Agree

There's a small minority on these boards whose only purpose seems to be creating anger. These disruptors include not only those who have a low number of posts. I've questioned one of these individuals who has posted opinion as fact (asked him for a source for his "fact"), and he/she didn't reply.

It's unfortunate that the behavior of the minority has driven off some long time DUers whose opinions I respected. Previously I've responded to some of the disruptive posts, but as of now I intend to ignore those flame bait topics and will start putting known habitual disruptors on my ignore list.

[9215]

79. I've about had it with your elitist claptrap!

Why don't you impart your wisdom as to the deficiencies of these posts and offer a specific criticism?????????

[Solly Mack]

80. I've been lurking and reading mostly..for several weeks now

and not posting too often..I still love DU..it's an incredible place filled with wonderful people...but you're right, I've noticed (and it's hard not to) a most acrimonious "air" lately.

No flames here, Mr Pitt...it's like coming home only to find the loving family you remembered so fondly has morphed into something you no longer recognise.

Enjoy your trip!!!!!

[knight_of_the_star]

81. I think what Mr. Pitt is trying to say is

That it is not the food that is being served that is the problem, it is how it is being cooked, so to speak. It doesn't sound like you have an issue with the issues being debated (or maybe you do. That is your right), it just sounds like you are having a problem with the WAY that they are being debated.

[WonderTwins]

82. ...

Some good points in this thread. I'm just a lurker and casual dropper-inner, but let me offer this:

1. It's okay for us to have disputes. New ideas never come about when everyone agrees all the time about everything.

2. It's okay for us to back different candidates. That's what democracy is all about, and our party needs this debate about its direction. I like a couple of the candidates a lot, but I'll support any of them against the Boy King. I'd be surprised and disappointed if everyone in their heart of hearts didn't feel the same.

3. It's okay for us to have different views about a wide variety of issues. We're Democrats (for the most part). We're never going to agree on everything. This is a big tent, always has been and likely always will be.

4. But there's no need to attack each other in a belligerent manner. It's like the inside voice/outside voice thing. We use our outside voice with the knuckledragging thugs. We should use our inside voice with our fellow Democrats. No yelling and screaming. No slamming doors. Just talking and discussing and commiserating. We really are, despite all our differences, in this thing together.

5. We need to recognize that we all fail to be polite and considerate at times, both ourselves and others. And then we need to recognize that we can choose to work at being more polite and considerate.

6. The paranoia about disruptors is kinda creepy. Likely there are some pukes who post here and who don't wish us well. Likely too that hypervigilance about disruptors has driven away some newbies who happen to be loyal Democrats.

7. Threads like these are a good way of checking our bearings. Maybe something like this (not more rules rules rules) should be posted at the top of the page. And people who insist on screaming at their fellow Democrats should be gently pointed in its direction.

Just my mostly-lurker two cents. This place is too much of a resource and a home for too many of us to let it get torn apart. I think we all deserve a hug.

[MSchreader]

83. Big tents always attract circuses

Such is life, Will. However, I will say that such rantings are why I don't post much here anymore.

Martin

[jafap]

84. I am not sure if you are talking about the threads

or just some of the posts. I looked at four of them, some of which I had already seen, and the only one that really annoyed me was the one about the guy who spent my yearly food budget on one dinner.

As far as flaming posts go, I would say that a comment like "We are just as savage and vicious as the cretins currently running the country ..." is quite the wholesale condemnation, name calling type of post that I could do without, but I am not into squelching opinions that I find ignorant or shallow. Nay, rather bring them into the light of day where they can be exposed, examined, and found wanting - perhaps even changed.

Also when it comes to flaming, I would quote Billy Jack - "Bernard, I want you to know that I try, I really try ... and when I think of the number of years that she is going to have to carry in her memory the savagery of this idiotic little moment of yours - I just go BERSERK."

[Rex]

86. I'm OUTRAGED!

$600 dinars for a plate of food! :wow:

[moondust]

87. It's called free speech.

Get used to it. Fix yourself.

[Democat]

102. You don't have a right to not be offended

If people can't handle a little infighting here, they will never be able to handle fighting with right wing fanatics.

[sybylla]

107. That is where DU has changed

This used to be the place to get away from all the fighting with the repugs and constant defense of liberal ideals that many of us take part in on a daily basis outside of DU. It was an oasis of commonality where you could, by and large, calmly talk about issues with people without having to spend hours in arguements defending something which DUers should instinctively understand. Arguements, which I might add, have no educational value

Now, it seems that posters are expected to endlessly define and defend every comment they make and explain their intentions over and over again instead of discuss the topic. There are many on this board who assume the worst and seem to feel that anything that offends them was actually intended as an attack on them or their particular group, however they define it, when in fact, after hours of haranguing the original poster, they decide that, "oops, I guess you didn't mean to insult me after all-sorry."

Someone who we perceive to be an enemy at first glance, my not be an enemy at all. When it comes to taking part in the forums at DU, perhaps we need to be better at knowing when to hold 'em, knowing when to fold 'em, knowing when to walk away and knowing when to run. (thank you Kenny Rogers)

I agree with you, Will Pitt. Things have changed greatly.

[Khephra]

91. Let's put it this way

I've never used the ignore function, because I didn't want to miss out on even the critical comments.

I'm about an inch away from using it now if one poster here doesn't STFU and chills soon.

The only things that's stoping me is that I feel like I'll be ducking out on other people. However, one or two posters here are just making my blood presure too high. It's not that they're critical, or even hold opposing opinions--it's that they're agressive assholes.

[jfxgillis]

92. But of course something has gone wrong

DU has gotten BIG.

That has costs and benefits. One of the benefits is, you probably wouldn't have gotten on C-Span last week if not for DU.

One of the costs is, communities get much more difficult to govern when they get big.

Although I don't post much, I've been registered here since just a couple of months after the board was founded (I think). There is a natural tendency for those who CREATE an institution or community (I'm speaking of you, not me; I'm pretty much a bystander) to want it to remain as it was created.

Wrong. The very fact that DU is dynamic, that it has grown BEYOND the founding vision, is, in fact, a great, nay, a monumental achievment.

[Spentastic]

93. And so it begins

Will Pitt initiates a new purge.

I've been here long enough to know what this means. The literati have decided to throw their toys out of the pram because they are getting some robust treatment at the hands of people that really care.

Any minute now some of the "disruptors" will be disappeared to make life easier for others.

It would just appear that some posters are more equal than others.

[pfitz59]

95. Darts, slings and arrows.......

Down boy!

[FlaGranny]

105. Yes, the non-assholes are more equal than the assholes.

The only threads that can be started without an asshole invasion are the ones that start "my best friend died today." Any other is fair game and I think that soon those threads will contain posts: "So? Get over it. Everyone loses best friends." The assholes are really stinking this place up.

You know the assholes. They are the ones who jump into a thread with nasty digs at another poster carrying over from another thread on an entirely different subject. Just have to get their digs in (stalking).

I've also come to the conlusion that there are some assholes who hate to see anyone happy about anything. If you are happy about something your candidate did or if you're happy about a great dinner date, some asshole just thinks you don't deserve it. This asshole always has his bucket of ice water on hand. Loves to rain on the parade.

There are a handful of nasty, mean, small-minded people around here lately. Republicans anyone?

[Spentastic]

109. Says a self proclaimed non asshole I presume?

I can't agree I'm afraid.

Since I joined this place I've noted no particular fall off in the level of civility. It's always been this bad. The fiasco before and immediately after the elections was particularly illuminating. Then, as now a certain number of people decided enough was enough and a set of fairly draconian rules were put in place. I hated it then and I can see it happening again.

Everyone has an accessible ignore button. Personally, I get more from angry people. They normally have something to say and they mean it.

You may be right of course. DU may be targeted for destruction by the right. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[pizzathehut]

96. The DU is actually very representative of the dems.

A friend was running for the democratic nominee for state rep here in Kansas. He told me about several of the forums he attended where the state democrats looked him over very carefully. Remember in the D party you have union people, non union, farmers, pro choice, pro life, etc... you name it. And guess what, as a nominee you have tolisten and be polite to every one of them. And they fight and bicker more among themselves than with the republicans.

So the DU is actually what you would have to deal with if you ran for any office. See why nobody good wants to run?

[arcos]

97. Add another URL to the list...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=197908

[rman]

98. to what extent is this DU's own doing, or

the work of trolling, disrupting freepers?

Don't let them get to you.

BTW how is "DU-er" defined? Is that anyone who posts on DU?

[Q]

101. I was more 'offended' by Pitt's 'Stupid Bastards' thread...

...than any outlined by Pitt.

- It's too bad when some DUers don't recognize that the smell they're complaining about comes from their own dirty diaper.

[bearfartinthewoods]

113. point

[buddhamama]

103. disagree

i've been here almost as long as you, Mr.Pitt, and i can assure you this 'bad' is nothing new.

different topics and focus maybe, but the anger and bad attitude towards others displayed at times hasn't changed from six months ago or a yr, even two.

[cap]

112. I think a certain amount is coming from frustration...

there are a lot of people who are feeling disenfranchised and are very angry about things. Outside agitators are taking advantage of it.

It's like when civil rights went bad in the 60's and we had the riots in the ghetto and people burned whole sections of their own community. That's what we are doing to ourselves.

We have to realize that just sounding off at DU is not enough. Each and everyone of us need to get more active in the things that we believe in. I believe if this happens we will get more constructive posts and positive reports to chat about.

[Skinner]

114. I'm locking this thread.

The first thread I clicked on above is the question "Should Truman have dropped the bomb" which seems like a perfectly legitimate topic of discussion, IMO. This is a discussion board after all.

If you don't like a particular topic, please be aware that nobody is forcing you to participate in that disscussion thread.

If you think a thread or a post breaks the rules, then hit the alert link.

Skinner
DU Admin