The military is performing FREE cosmetic surgery???

[CatWoman]

:wtf:??????

100 liposuctions
50 breast implants

and soldiers with no bullets??

[spanone]

1. Watching....how freakin' bizarre is that?

What in the world is going on?

[lazarus]

2. ???

where are you seeing this?

[CatWoman]

3. It was just reported on the Countdown

just did a google. look at this:

Dr. Parfitt sought to obtain the best training program in otolaryngology for facial cosmetic surgery. Much to his surprise, he discovered that military training programs perform the most facial cosmetic surgery. The reasons for this are as follows: 1) Facial cosmetic surgery was free-of-charge to military personnel and their families, 2) facial cosmetic surgery, even cosmetic surgery, is necessary preparation for treating war-time skin and scalp wounds as well as facial fractures and tissue trauma. Every approach used to repair facial trauma and fractures has a counterpart in cosmetic facial surgery and vice versa. Therefore this training was considered necessary and essential for military wartime preparation . 3) Since the supervisory surgeons in military surgical training programs were on salary and were paid no extra for doing the surgery themselves, the training resident was allowed to perform almost ALL of the surgery themselves.

http://www.facialplastics.com/about/right_frame_about.html

[wickerwoman]

8. I don't see the problem.

The military has a genuine need to perform many cosmetic surgeries (on soldiers who are injured in battle.) The residents need all the training they can get before they are working on seriously injured soldiers.

I would never personally go under the knife with an army plastic surgeon (let alone a resident) but if soldiers and their familes accept the risk, it seems like one of those happy symbiotic relationships.

Why don't we focus on real wastes of money, like the army buying outdated equiptment to keep Congressman Pork's constituents happy?

[CatWoman]

9. boob jobs, tummy tucks and lipo?

gimme a break

[TrustingDog]

18. Halliburton must have a sudsidiary for this....

nip and tuck and fuck the taxpayer.
that's the only angle I can see.

[wickerwoman]

28. So women are never shot in the breasts?

That's considerate of the Iraqis as well as a considerable feat of marksmanship.

I'm not an expert on plastic surgery, but I would imagine that there are procedures that require surgeons to take fat or skin from one part of the body and move it to another in reconstruction.

Give me some statistics on how much this is costing taxpayers compared to all the other boondoggles in the army and my level of outrage may rise.

GI Barbie wants bigger tits. The residents need practice for later serious cosmetic surgery. A match made in heaven.

On edit: At least these soldiers volunteer for the experiments being performed on them.

[CatWoman]

31. you are missing the point

I am not against necessary, needed cosmetic surgery.

I am, however, against women getting UNNEEDED boob jobs, tummy tucks, and liposuction free on my dime.

Understand?

[wickerwoman]

34. I understand your point perfectly.

And I repeat:
The women are allowing the surgical residents to train for real situations where people do need cosmetic surgery. They aren't charging for being guinea pigs.
Someone else on this thread has pointed out that these women (and men) are probably paying for the surgery themselves.
And I still haven't seen any statistics about how much of your dime this is costing compared with all the other ways the army wastes your money.
I think you're allowing a tabloid footnote to distract you from the real fraud that is being perpetated (the military wasting billions on outdated equiptment and private contractors who don't really do their job.)
The soldier aren't bulletless because a few wives are getting boobjobs. They're bulletless and waterless because Halliburton can't be bothered to spend money fullfilling their contract.
Understand?

[DoNotRefill]

116. practice makes perfect...

think of it as a teaching hospital kind of situation.

[libertad]

140. The military doctors are paid less than civilian doctors and they

may as well hone their skills when there is time. They do not get paid per procedure like civilian doctors. In other words, they are making the same amount whether or not they are doing boob jobs or waiting for a soldier to require surgery.

[CatWoman]

4. and this:

http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=1898110

Incentives and rewards for our service men and women fighting overseas. It's a way to build morale and train heroes to be successful on the homefront. One of the perks you may not have heard about, Military Makeovers.

The Army has 20 plastic surgeons and during war time they focus is on reconstructive surgery to help injured soldiers. To stay updated on their training the Army offers free cosmetic surgery to soldiers and their families. It's a benefit soldiers are lining up to take advantage of.

[Joanne98]

5. I saw that

Veterans are getting they benefits cut and their up there having a plastic surgery party. It's an outrage. The Dems should jump on this.

[CatWoman]

10. it's also free to the family members as well

this IS an outrage.

A lot of soldiers don't even have adequate equipment.

Water, even!!

[Realityhack]

92. No its not an outrage.

Troops sent in to battle without proper equipment is an outrage. A perk that lets surgens stay credentialed isn't. It probobly woulden't be even if it did nothing for the surgens.

You would be just as upset if you saw a sob story about a guy who had terible re-constructive surgery because the surgen had never actuay operated before.

Even if it is a 100% perk are you seriously arguing that solders dont diserve every perk they get? Millitary employees do not make a lot. They get some perks in return. Who cares? its not like people are flocking to millitary service to have nose jobs on the public dime. If they were the practice would be cut back.

Whats your outrage really about?

RH

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

115. I wholeheartedly agree. This is a disgrace. Vets in VA hospitals, for

instance, are in need of better care and money is being spent for someone's boobs to get bigger? WTF?!

[LittleApple81]

6. But if it was one of the offered perks, sadly now THEY MIGHT REQUIRE

it because they have no face left.
Liposuction... I don't know if you need it if you don't have legs.

[wishlist]

11. Vets have been getting unnecessary cosmetic surgery for many years-

with the explanation that the VA docs perform the procedures to stay in practice or in training so they will be proficient in reconstructive surgery.

A Vietnam vet friend of mine told me years ago that they offered to pin his ears back (he is a handsome guy but has jug ears that kind of stick out and he gets kidded about his ears) but he declined saying that he had gotten along all his life with his ears and he felt uncomfortable that he could be a guinea pig for a surgeon in training.

[CatWoman]

13. I'm a vet

and I have to jump hoops just to see the freaking doctor.

Budget cuts have caused severe shortages.

[WillyT]

12. Oh... We Like Our Soldiers 'Perky' Alright !!! - Especially If They're...

gonna be starring in prison pornos from now on.

:bounce::bounce::nuke: oops!

[TreasonousBastard]

7. It does make sense in a strange way...

since they do have to keep up their skills.

I suppose there could be better ways to deal with it, but this seems at least as cost-effective as farming the work out to civilian plastic surgeons through the VA.

It also beats some other half-assed ideas they had-- like shooting dogs to get practice pulling bullets out. Sending military doctors to ERs in places like Camden was a better idea.

[spanone]

14. You're kidding , right?

What does breast enhancement have to do with anything the military does. I seriously doubt that there is a lot of plastic surgery going on in veterans hospitals that includes breasts, liposuction, face lifts and so on. To use this as a recruiting technique is absurd.

[nose pin]

17. Chest wounds?

With so many women serving in combat, breast work might be legit, but lipo? No way.

[CaTeacher]

29. I had a friend who was an officer in the military, she

lost both her breast to cancer, and they reconstructed her chest using implants. She was not sure if she should do this--I was one of the friends to encourage her to do it--it made her feel much better about her self (self-esteem)

(She was in the military during the first Gulf war--so that was a while ago. She is now a MD herself in the south.

[DoNotRefill]

118. anesthesia is universal...

and battlefield/military surgery has ALWAYS been the cutting edge of cosmetic surgery. In fact, that's how cosmetic surgery got started....fixing up disfigured servicemen in an effort to bring them back to some form of functionality. We're looking at issues like reduction of scar tissue, reconstructive surgery, et cetera.

Surgery is like anything learned through application. The more you practice it, the better you get. So, in "slack" times, I'd rather the military practice doing elective procedures than either not practice (and therefore, not be ready when needed) or practice through other methods (like shooting animals to fix them up).

I'd MUCH rather be treated by a surgeon who had a lot of experience doing cosmetic procedures than be treated by a doctor with no practical experience. Wouldn't you?

The other thing to keep in mind is that the military needs X amount of medical personnel on staff. They'll get paid the same regardless of if they're doing cosmetic procedures or not doing anything. So why not have them practicing, and getting better at their art? The payroll cost will be the same.

[CatWoman]

119. you need to stop refilling

[DoNotRefill]

121. Huh?

Clarification requested.

[opihimoimoi]

15. Its part of the Mental Slavery thingy...we are the pawns for the Pubs

Armed Forces... they keep us Happy, we do the dying...its simple as that...

[philosophie_en_rose]

16. It's true.

I know at least five military wives that have had breast lifts at military hospitals, because of "back aches." Also lasik eye surgery.

[Toot]

19. This has been going on for a while.

My sister is in the army, and back in '96 or '97 one of the Staff Sergeants in her unit got breast implants, it was done at the military hospital for free.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

20. Facts need to be carefully checked. When I was in a military training

hospital a few years ago, purely cosmetic procedures like liposuction and breast implants WERE done, but the patients were charged a surgical fee (not as expensive as in the community, but certainly not free either, I don't know how the fees were determined) as well as having to pay for any implant. I trained military physicians so I know something about this. I could be wrong but I seriously doubt this has changed substantially, especially as I'm sure all the services are feeling a serious budget pinch in their medical services these days.

Now some ENT cosmetic procedures such as eyelid lifts (blepharoplasty) might be done for free depending on the nature of the diagnosis listed.

Reconstructive plastic surgeries, such as breast implant or reconstruction after cancer surgery, are not charged to military members or dependents.

[CatWoman]

21. http://www.kpho.com/Global/story.asp?S=1898110

Rachelle Conaway, Texas Army Soldier, says, " They're not the ones going to war. I think we deserve it. " And these cosmetic surgeries aren't free for just soldiers, they're also free for their spouses and dependents. And there are no limits to the number of surgeries they can have.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

24. Right, but I am saying I don't necessarily trust these papers to get it

right. Just because a military member is having surgery at a military facility, where they generally get free care, does NOT mean that their care is free if it is cosmetic. What is defined as "purely cosmetic" varies though. Boob job, non cancer, definitely incurred a surgical and implant fee to the military member and I think dependents too. Some others might not.

I worked in the military medical system 15 years. Given how often the NYT, etc. gets it wrong I don't really trust any of these papers to get it right on an individual story.

[ElsewheresDaughter]

22. .this makes me ill...when my 23 yr old daughter can't go to dr about the

lump on her breast because she doesn't have health insurance and no fucking dr will see her without it...she is a vet tech and the animal hospital she works for doesn't provide it ...i am so ANGRY!

[DemBones DemBones]

23. I know a former Naval officer who had

a breast reduction while she was in the Navy. She had very large breasts that caused her back problems.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

26. Breast Reduction is a different story entirely.

If the person has back problems (or says they do), then it is an issue of improving readiness of the member, and "non cosmetic". This type of surgery was always free for this indication (although many of us were strongly opposed!) (/tongue in cheek)

[ElsewheresDaughter]

25. Face Off?

[CatWoman]

27. LOL

That was a good movie :D

[markses]

30. So what?

I heard the military doctor on the Today Show this morning, and I agree with him. We all, of course, know that cosmetic surgery as a field began primarily to do reconstructive surgery for wounded soldiers (really taking off after WWI). The military still does this. I don't see the big deal if the surgeons stay up to date by doing this kind of elective stuff. What's the BFD?

[CatWoman]

33. the big fucking deal is

when I was in the service, plastic/cosmetic surgery was mostly done on officer's wives.

and then the military called it frivilous, and did away with it.

and now, they are doing it for FREE for not just military, but for their spouses and dependents.

i don't have a problem with people using these services if they are necessary.

but i do have a problem using my tax dollars to enable someone's vanity trip.

[markses]

36. If it keeps the surgeons up to date

For when they have to fix somebody's face that's been blown off, then it is well worth it. I think it's fine. Curious how you're complaining about the way you were denied it. That seems irrelevant. If it's a new policy, it's a good policy.

[Solly Mack]

32. Oh yeah! They do indeed. After my wreck in 2000...majorly bad wreck

and my chest was severely damaged (among other things) , they offered to go in and "enhance" and "reconstruct" even before the healing began... .."in case" the damage was very bad, let's schedule it now kind of thing. My breast were so brusied and battered I just knew they would rot off...it was pretty bad actually..internally as well..massive tissue damage. Horrible wreck. But I didn't want my puppies touched unless absolutely needed.

I healed well and opted not to have cosmetic surgery...even though they again offered. :)

but I know of 2 who have...one was a "self-esteem" & health issue for a female soldier - breast reduction...one was cancer in a dependent.

They also perform bariatric surgery (gastric bypass)
on an "elective" basis (more or less)..one lady I know who is getting it done next month is actually overeating to maintian the proper percentage of body fat to stay qualified. She started losing weight right after they agreed to the surgery...

and speaking of bullets...hubby went to range the other day and they actually had 2 bullets a piece to qualify with...when he told me people got to shoot twice, I asked "you all had the bullets to do that with?" He laughed and said "amazing, I know"

but seriously, that's how short training equipment is..it's a big deal when they actually have the stuff to train with...much less take into combat.

[nose pin]

37. I think the bullet shortage

is a problem of production capacity, and not lack of funds. I have read several stories saying that the capacity of US ammo manufacturers is being outpaced by consumption by the military. That is why we are having Israel produce ammo for training and target practice. (They don't want the image problem of shooting Muslims with Israeli ammo.... I know, the things they worry about.)

I'm going to talk out of my tinfoil hat here, and suggest that this issue was planted in the media for the express purpose of distracting us from other, more important issues. I mean, look at the time and energy being expended (and the disagreement) just in this thread.

Something to think about anyway.

[Solly Mack]

39. Nah..it's a lack of funds within his company

a company gets so much money for training ammo..once it's used, that's pretty much it....until the next budget is released and money comes out again. My husband ran the supply room years ago and the things I learned. :)

[nose pin]

40. Ah, private sector

That's different. But there will be a shortage of even hunting ammo in the near future, because all the US ammo manufacturers are spun up to full capacity to meet military needs.

I read that during Vietnam, something like 100,000 (or was it a million?) shots were fired for every enemy killed.

[Solly Mack]

41. private sector? I'm talking military and military suppliers

[redqueen]

86. Do you know if cosmetic charges are paid by the patient?

Like renting the operating room, anaesthesia, etc.?

[Solly Mack]

90. All the ones I know about were paid in full by tri-care

or soldier coverage tri-care because they were considered health issues. Relating to cancer or to other health issues.

and they do perform bariatric surgery....all paid for


however, I don't know of anyone who has any "custodial" cosmetic surgery within the army. tri-care only covers certain cosmetic procedures and there has to be a health reason. tri-care states they do not cover custodial cosmetic surgery.


there are varying levels of coverage within the military. not everyone has the same coverage http://www.military.com/Resources/ResourcesContent/0,13964,30824,00.html

I have tri-care prime so I am fully covered within military medical facilities. I don't even pay for prescriptions as long as I get them from the on-post pharm. and I always do. There are charges in some cases for room, etc...but a very small charge. I know of a couple who gave birth...4 days in hospital...to include the circumcision..they paid 35 bucks total....and that includes 9 months of pre-natal care and the birth.

You'll get different answers because different people have different levels of coverage.

[merh]

35. The argument for cosmetic surgery being provided to the members

of the military is quite simple. The surgeons must maintain their skills. They must know their trade. Would you be appalled if a burned soldier was treated by a plastic surgeon who had no practical training? Would you be appalled if a ear, nose and throat doc was allowed to perform the plastic surgery on a mamed soldier because they had not trained any plastic surgeons?

Most military hospitals are training facilities. Rarely do doctors stay on staff over their contracted terms. The soldier (officer) is trained to be a doctor and then remains in the service for a period of time once he finishes he residency. They normally do not stay in as career soldiers because the money in the civilian world is so much better.

How do you suggest these surgeons train? If not trained, is that fair to the soldiers that are in need of their services?

I know of a lady who had received injuries to her nose and eye during her service (this was in the '80s) the surgeon that operated on her was not a plastic surgeon, but an ear, nose and throat surgeon. He made the incisions much too deep, cutting vital nerves and vessels. She has permanent scaring and nerve damage to her face and is permanently disfigured. The surgeon who operated on her had no training and had never performed the surgery. She couldn't sue the government, they would not give her permission.

Does it seem extravagent to receive cosmetic surgery as a member of the military? Well, I guess it does, unless you try to live on the salary they pay and raise a family.

[Amarant]

38. Don't see a problem with this

when someone joins the military they are risking their life for me. If cosmetic surgery helps make them feel better (when they might very well be living in hell come war time) then so be it. As a tax payer I don't mind paying for it. They are risking a hell of a lot, and I suppose I owe them at least some damn cosmetic surgery if that's what they want. Especially considering this country has a sick tendency to throw them out on the street after they serve. With all the shitty treatment our government will give them at least this is one thing they can have.

[Marvelous_Smarty]

42. I am all for it.

I was shot in the face in Somalia in 1993. I had reconstructive surgeries and all I have as far as a scar now is a thin scar from the tip of my nose to my between my eyes and a small lump of scar tissue right at the halfway mark of it.

The doctor who performed these kept his practice up by performing a nose job here and there. Another thing, Rangers and Paratroopers have quite a few nose jobs done since it is not rare for one to break his nose on a parachute jump. I tore one of my eyebrows all to hell on a landing, banged it off of my own knee.

[Heddi]

43. I think everyone here is missing the point

Of COURSE it's a good thing for Dr's to do reconstructive surgery for soldiers who were injured in battle. Or who suffered breast cancer. Or who were in an automobile accident.

But that's not what this story is about. It's about F-R-E-E, OPTIONAL, COSMETIC surgery not only for the enlisted, but for their DEPENDENTS AS WELL.

And of course Dr's need to keep their skills up to date. Every doctor does. But Doing F-R-E-E cosmetic surgery on elistees AND their dependents is just.....wrong.

Do it for a reduced fee---sliding scale--who gives a fuck. But the fact that my taxes, your taxes, EVERYONE'S taxes are being spent on this all encompassing WAR ON TERROR (patent pending), Don't you think those dollars would better be spent furnishing the soldiers with EQUIPMENT (which they sorely need), TRAINING (ditto), Pay Raises for the families that are left back home having to keep things straight (ditto)....Instead, MILLIONS of dollars are being spent on optional, Medically Unnecessary, elective surgeries.

There's something very wrong about that. Very wrong that *I* got tits the size of fucking tires, have had back pain since 5th fucking grade because of these bastards, and *I* can't get a breast reduction for free, or even for very inexpensive. Because it's *cosmetic* and I'm not 80 years old and hunched over from them yet, my insurance won't pay for it, so I"d have to cough up about $15,000 in surgery costs and another few grand for rehab services, loss of work, etc.

But Navy Wives who want perky boo-boo's can waltz in and get a tit job for FREE---on my fucking dime.

NO
FUCKING
WAY

[Marvelous_Smarty]

44. I would really like to know what your problem with this is?

The doctors are paid whether they perform these surgeries or not. So is the nursing staff. Soldiers make all sorts of sacrifices. Don't get paid shit.

They get it and you don't? Is that it?

I should give up my H2 Hummer because not everyone else can drive one?

[Heddi]

47. oh god your wisdom astounds me!

You pegged me so *accurately*. That is JUST what I'm saying :eyes:

[wickerwoman]

45. That's interesting.

Do have a link showing that millions are spent on unnecessary elective surgery? How many people get these procedures per year?
These are stats I would like to see.
And if they are paying for them on a sliding scale (as another poster suggest that they already are) then your tax dollars are still paying for other people's cosmetic surgery. So wouldn't you have a problem with reduced fee surgery as well?
Look, if I want my hair cut or my nails done or psychiatric help, I can go to the nearest training school or university and get it for free. OK, the haircut or manicure may suck and I may leave therapy with more problems than I started with, but I'm a guinea pig and I accepted that risk when I went in.
These women are being guinea pigs. They are accepting that the job may not turn out well. I say that's enough.
If you want breast reduction surgery, call up your local army doctor and maybe they can set you up.

[Amarant]

46. The original post

said something like 150 operations. (and some of those could easily have been needed due to combat wounds) 150 operations is not exactly "millions" - especially considering military doctors get paid regardless - and get paid FAR less than many doctors in the civilian field.

More hysteria.

Again - my take is, if you risk your life in the military and some cosmetic surgery is what you'd like - well then you should have it. Soldiers risk their life and well being (forever) for us. I'm not going to bitch about them getting free cosmetic surgery on my dime considering the generally shitty treatment they get in so many other respects - including being asked to fight pointless wars to make others rich for a few decades now, and then being tossed on the street like garbage once they get out many times suffering from mental or physical injury, and ultimately ending up with a miserable life. I know damn well they deserve whatever few perks they get.

As far as the family members getting it... It's not so much understandable as the actual soldier - BUT it is still understandable. Family members of those in uniform go through A LOT of mental hell - ESPECIALLY if that soldier(s) dies. If you want a good example of exactly what I am talking about go see Faren 9/11.

[CatWoman]

49. that was the count for the year

according to the Countdown.

[CatWoman]

48. thank you, Heddi

Jesus fucking christ.

Is there a bug that affects people's reasonable side of the brain on Mondays?

[Redhead488]

50. That's not what happens

You don't have scores of "Navy Wives who want perky boo-boo's can waltz in and get a tit job for FREE."

Totally blown out of proportion.

The military does have doctors who perform reconstructive surgery, so they MUST stay current in the procedures even when there are not surgeries that need to be performed for military reasons; therefore they perform them for military members and dependents (dependents ARE authorized care from military doctors in military facilities) on a case by case basis. What's the big fucking deal?

[CatWoman]

51. you figure it out

What's the big fucking deal?

[Gin]

52. new Army slogan...."Be the ..BREAST... that you can be!"

that was emailed to CNN by a viewer...thought it was appropriate.

[Redhead488]

53. After 25 years in the military

and seeing VERY few elective, cosmetic surgeries performed I can tell you this isn't a big fucking deal. I know MANY more military people who payed out of pocket to have these surgeries done. Bottom line, the surgeons are THERE anyway, they need the practice; they find WORTHY candidates and perform them. Grow up.

[CatWoman]

56. Let them practice all they want

however, unneccesary surgery and image enhancement should not be FREE.

[Redhead488]

57. Medical care IS free

to active duty and their dependents. Why charge them for something the doctors have to do to retain their board certifications?

This is not a big deal.

Your taxpayer dollars also support commissaries. You gonna bitch about that too?

Oh, and if you are a vet; you'd know that the money for this and the money for "bullets" come out of two separate pots. The doctors and nurses and hospital rooms are a fixed, SUNK cost. We pay them the same for doing 100 surgeries as we do for doing just one surgery. I'd prefer to get my money's worth. We have men and women who need/want cosmetic surgery, we have doctors who need to perform a number of those surgeries each year--we have a match.

[CatWoman]

58. Medical care is free, huh?

yet soldiers wounded in Iraq were charged for their meals while laid up in the hospital.

Two and Two does not equal four here :eyes:

[Redhead488]

61. The care is free

but since we receive a FOOD allowance to pay for food, the military recoups that allowance when they PROVIDE the food (such as in a hospital). That's why some enlisted receive a meal card (If one has a meal card, one is NOT charged for hospital food) and some (of a certain rank or higher) receive BAS. You sure you are a vet?

[CatWoman]

65. When I was in the service, my daughter had "issues"

and I had to have her hospitalized, followed up by phychiatrist visits.

Champus kicked in to pay some of the costs, but I had to pay as well.

[Redhead488]

67. Were you active duty?

Why didn't you use a military facility instead of CHAMPUS?

[CatWoman]

69. 1. Yes, I was active duty.

2. I don't think that's any of your business.

[Redhead488]

71. Well, sounds like you made a choice to pay

for something you could have received free.

CatWoman, I like you. I agree with about 98% of your posts. This is one area where we disagree. The few numbers of elective surgeries performed each year don't amount to a hill of beans. This is, IMHO, a non-issue.

[maggrwaggr]

88. I'm with you, Redhead

I grew up in the military, my Dad was an Army officer.

I had allergies, hernia operations, braces, dental work, all KINDS of stuff all done for "free" by the U.S. military doctors.

I think I knew one woman who got a nose job the whole time I was growing up.

Yes, it's no big deal. And the reason a LOT of doctors join the army is because they CAN'T PAY FOR MED SCHOOL so they join the military to help out.

We need military doctors for cryin' out loud, and yes, they get paid the same whether they do 100 surgeries or 1.

I'm a LITTLE more concerned that my tax dollars are going fto pay for this:

[Marvelous_Smarty]

111. From experience I can tell you how this happened.

The Army pays for all of your meals. You can opt out and not eat in the mess hall. If you do, you are paid a per diem (seperate rations) that covers your meals. But if you do eat in the barracks you have to pay, since the Army is already giving you cash for not eating there.

When I was deployed to Somalia I opted myself off of called seperate rations. The Army is notoriously slow with paper work and I was still on seperate rations when I was wounded. I was charged for every meal in the hospital. It is a paperwork SNAFU, not some budget cutting racket.

[Misinformed01]

74. Hi Heddi!

Some of us get it!

I can't believe the DUers that think this type of unneeded cosmetic surgery done on taxpayers money is A-OK. What Catwoman says makes perfect sense, yet there are those that will argue.

Amazing.

[Redhead488]

75. Cuz you are wrong

:-). It doesn't "cost" the taxpayers anything. It is a sunk, fixed cost.

[Misinformed01]

76. For the person who responded to my post

I am sorry, I am unable to "see" your post, and therefore, can't respond.

[CatWoman]

77. good idea, Stephanie

[Misinformed01]

79. This was a good post; I had not heard this before

Thanks for posting it! :)

(and good to see you)

[Redhead488]

82. Doesn't matter

your reponse would have been misinformed...so to speak.

[Realityhack]

98. Clearly you have some other problem with this.

If the millitary offered people say free tuition as a perk I don't think you would have a problem. But make it a boob job for a dependent and its all over. Both provide double duty as a perk/incentive and as the military posibly getting something out of the deal. Both are things that only a few take advantage of. But suddenly you fly off the handle simply because its an unusual perk.

This is not a big ticket item. Look at the numbers. If it was the practice would probobly be curtailed same as hazard pay and all the other big ticket perks.

RH

[TexasSissy]

54. I don't believe this, knowing how cheap the military is. Unless it's

connected with injury repair. It's possible that it's true....but I doubt it. The military is just too cheap. I predict more information will come to light that will better explain this, and the story will be very different.

[Redhead488]

55. I've seen it

Had a woman in my squadron given breast reduction surgery; had another who got a nose job. Had a third who got braces (dental)--the military doesn't always pay for orthodontics. In each case it was a good decision by the military to allow those particular surgeries and procedures.

[TexasSissy]

60. Breast reduction is not "cosmetic" in the truest sense. Ins. will pay for

it. It's medical. Breasts large enough to warrant a reduction surgery are large enough to interfere with daily functioning, and cause back trouble, posture trouble, dents in shoulders (from heavy breasts pulling on bra straps), and other medical problems.

Nose job will be covered by insurance occasionally, if it is primarily to correct breathing difficulty.

Braces - covered by insurance. This affects the bite of the mouth.

None of those things are always, truly cosmetic. Although there is a cosmetic component to them.

Things that are truly cosmetic, for which insurance never covers, as far as I know: breast augmentation, liposuction, tummy tuck. Things like that.

[Redhead488]

63. We are not talking insurance

we are talking the military health care system; big difference. Braces can be cosmetic - in this case they clearly were; so was the nose job.

[TexasSissy]

84. Insurance is relevant 'cause ins. does not cover "cosmetic surgery."

It covers surgery for medical reasons only...and they scrutinize the surgery reason, for sure. Though there may be a side benefit of cosmetic improvement, also, the primary reason for the surgery is medical benefit. So it would be medical for military purposes, as well.

[CatWoman]

64. I had a friend who had breast reduction

while in the military.

That was necessary surgery.

I defy anyone to justify breast augumentation.

[Redhead488]

68. Why does it need to be justified?

Doctor X needs to perform so many breast reconstructions/reductions each year (pro rated by month). He's done 2 and needs to do one more this month. Sally Airman is on the waiting list to have a breast augmentation. Hospital matches Sally to Dcotor X. Everyone wins.

Simple.

[maggrwaggr]

89. how 'bout after a mastectomy?

gotcha

[CatWoman]

91. you've got shit

a mastectomy is not "elective" surgery.

I don't support frivilous surgeries of any kind.

I'm not talking about braces, hernia operations, or anything in that category.

I'm referring to tummy tucks, lipo, nose jobs -- anything done on a vanity level.

Go back and read my responses before you start slinging arrows my way.

It's not my fault some of you PURPOSELY misunderstand my objections.

[pagerbear]

59. These are two separate issues.

First, soldiers on active duty are underequipped. Period.

Second, military surgeons of every sort, including cosmetic, need to practice. I don't know the particulars of volunteering/payment/incentives, but I don't really see a problem. Would you rather the cosmetic surgeons who rebuild Soldier Joe's or Jane's face or body after battle have no experience? Would you be more comfortable if volunteers were lining up for gall bladder surgery?

[CatWoman]

62. again, I am NOT against needed reconstructive surgery

key word here = NEEDED

[Redhead488]

66. And so how do they stay certified

if there aren't enough "needed" surgeries in any one year?

The military health care facilities set a quota each year of how many of each type of surgery their "cosmetic" surgeons need to perform (each service may have different standards). They will perform "elective" surgeries on a case by case basis to ensure they perform the requisite numbers of surgeries each year. What is wrong with this?

[CatWoman]

70. I tire of repeating myself to you

go back and read thru this thread.

I have work to do.

or better yet, post in the Bush Twins threads about how hot they are. maybe you will find a more amiable audience there.

[Redhead488]

73. You don't grasp the basic premise

This isn't "costing" the taxpayers.

[swineguy]

72. you have nailed it

The military needs plastic surgeons.

In order to maintain proficiency They must operate.

The surgeons in the military make a small fraction what they could in private practice.

Surgeons are giving of themselves for the betterment of the men and women serving us.

Don't forget that ALL of the support people also need to keep their skill sharp. And they also could earn multiples of their salary in private practice.

This is a made up controversy

[elehhhhna]

78. Medicaid pays for Viagra but not birth control pills. Proceed:

[swineguy]

80. The imagined controversy

is that Military plastic surgeons should not be doing surgery, gratis.

If you have a problem with Medicaid talk to the politicians

I did not see the inequity's of Medicaid mentioned

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

81. Darnall Army Hospital Plastic Surg Dept Web Page (Ft. Hood TX)

http://www.hood-meddac.army.mil/default.asp?page=surgery_plastic&vi=n&mnu=0

"Non-active duty patients must pay a fee for cosmetic surgery at Darnall.
All patients at Darnall, active duty and non-active duty, do not need to pay a fee for non-cosmetic, or therapeutic surgery that relieves symptoms or treats a health problem.
If you are an active duty patient, all surgery, cosmetic and non-cosmetic, done at DACH is without a fee, with the exception of having breast implants, in which case you must pay for the implants.
Any fees for cosmetic surgery on non active duty patients are required to be paid before the surgery."


So, dependents pay for cosmetic surg., and active duty pay for the implants only, still not free. I'm sure if the diagnosis was something like nondevelopment of one of the breasts (happens occasionally) then it would be considered a legit disfigurement and be free to the active duty member.

Having been part of a training program for military physicians, both as a trainee and trainer, I would agree with some of the other posters that military docs do have to do some number of such procedures to maintain proficiency. How much of this is arguable. Some of it (breast implant/reconstruction, facial surgery) is fairly relevant to non cosmetic indications, some less so.

[swineguy]

83. seems like a most reasonble respose

from someone that understands the situation

Bottum line. you cant have Doc's (and their support staff) sitting on their duffs waiting for an injury suffered on the fields of battle. I have relatives and close friends serving today, I much like the idea that plasic surgeons are in the O.R. doing their job, and at the same time, giving up vast amounts of money to serve our troops

[redqueen]

85. Should free cosmetic surgery be used as a way to entice people to sign up

if it's supposedly done only for practice, infrequently?

[Solly Mack]

93. NO

it should not

[CatWoman]

95. and this is all I'm saying in a nutshell

[Realityhack]

103. Why shouldent it?

Why shouldent that be an incentive? Its not like you are going to see people sign up for only that reason. Why not make it one of the list of benifits?
Do you have some 'moral' objection?

So what if someone did sign up just for that. They get the same deal as everyone else. Face the same assignments. How come this cant be on the list allong with tuition etc?

RH

[Solly Mack]

104. because the money is better spent on other things

veteran benefits & equipment to name just 2.

[Amarant]

110. This IS a veterans benefit

as the surgery will still be with them when they are vets.

[CatWoman]

112. I'm a disabled veteran

and I can't even get the medicine I need to treat my illnesses.

Thanks to Bush's budget cuts the VA hospital is so short staffed, it takes forever to see a doctor. And when I do get an appointment to see the doctor, I might as well pitch camp as there's always a very long line in front of me.

The medicine I take is second rate -- when I was seeing a professional and PAYING for it, I got much better medicine. But the VA doesn't carry any of it -- just the cheaper and lower end versions of it.

And even though I'm a disabled vet, I've seen my copayments go up and up and up.

I've had one surgery with them -- to remove a large tumor from under my right arm pit.

It wasn't "cosmetic" surgery -- it wasn't done to make me look "better".

It was done because it was growing at an alarming rate, and started to interfere with my quality of life.

[Solly Mack]

120. My husbands life is more important than SuzyQ's desire for big tits

And when a bullet penetrates SuzyQ's newly enhanced chest, while she is dying, she might then realise that her life was more important than her brand new inflatable body armor

If she hasn't learned to love her size b's by age 18 then she can save her money and have them inflated on her own dime.

The money is better spent on other essential and badly needed vet. services and equipment for active military

when the military can't even furnish sappy plates that do something useful like ..say....save life...then they for damn sure can't afford to realign the jiggle in SuzyQ's walk. Imagine that...saving life being more important than SuzyQ living out her dream to be Anna Nicole Smith.

[Redhead488]

125. Different pots of money

[redqueen]

126. So that's it then?

Does no one care to address the inequity of the situation, if one pot is overflowing (but hey it makes a great hook to get 'em enlisted!), and the other, *more critical one*, is starved?

[Redhead488]

127. O&M funds

are different than medical personnel funds.

The salaries of the doctors, nurses, and other military medical personnel are a fixed, sunk cost. We'd pay them if the doc did 1 surgery or 100. This is really a non-issue, drummed up by some who think that military personnel are getting an unfair break.

[Solly Mack]

132. But it's not a question the salary of the doctor, nurse or assorted PA's

which is what you are pointing out as being fixed and the same regardless....though it isn't since custodial surgery isn't covered under tri-care and not performed at military installations...I repeat...Tri-care DOES NOT cover custodial cosmetic surgery and they are NOT performed at military hospitals. So it's not a question of what military medical personel are paid. It never was...people desiring custodial care have to go outside the military and it must be out of their pockets...though they can apply for some compensation under tri-care standard (which happens to be almost the same thing as champus...but worse)

military hospitals do perform and tri-care does cover certain types of reconstructive surgery...which is not to be confused with custodial surgery. One's needed for health reasons..one is just vanity.

soldiers are covered under Tri-care Prime.

the equipment needed to perform custodial surgery..and a breast implant is custodial cosmetic surgery...isn't set. It isn't the same price regardless...the military would have to contract out for that under supplies....not medical "personel"...but medical supplies. And they would have to prepare for an increase in implants...which cost extra money and still do not count as salary for medical personnel...and you brought up medical personnel salaries...not the cost of supplies. And it's the added extra cost of supplies that could be better used in other areas. Because in order to perform elective breast enhancements for new recruits, money will have to be increased for supplies...not salaries. Because as you so helpfully pointed out...the salary remains the same regardless...so it's NOT a factor.

now, recruitment "bonus'" do not fall under salary for medical personnel...and your point was the salary of medical personnel.. a recruitment bonus is in a category all by it's little self....and the breast implants in question are being offered to entice women to enlist..no one is talking about reconstructive surgery...but an offer of bigger breast to encourage women to join the army. There is a difference. And none of it has anything to do with what military medical personnel are paid. Nada. Zilch. In fact, what the doctor is paid isn't the point at all. Never was. Never will be.


soldiers in need of reconstructive surgery better damn well get it. they've earned that and more...but handing out bigger breast just to get someone to join the military is money wasted. That money...and rememer, we aren't talking medical personnel salary but the cost of supplies...could be spent on things soldiers really need.

and just so you know, I live on an army post and I called my post hospital to verify how it works. Tri-Care rep. was very helpful in answering my questions. Medical personnel salaries are not the same as medical supplies - 2 diffferent budgets and in point of fact, budgets for individual army hospitals are different due to different need and size of installation...and breast implants do not fall under the budget for salaries...they are supplies.

[Redhead488]

136. Show me where this has happened.

"but handing out bigger breast just to get someone to join the military is money wasted."

[redqueen]

123. Um, because it's supposed to be infrequent

and for practice?

And with the increasing trend towards having this done, they may end up encouraging soldiers to place an unreasonable demand on the surgeons?

Or maybe just because it's a bad idea because it encourages people to indulge in shallow, narcissistic behavior... yeah... maybe that.

[Redhead488]

139. What increasing trend?

Can you provide ANY data to show that elective comestic surgery done by military surgeons for active duty members is increasing?

[maggrwaggr]

87. as a child I had two free hernia operations courtesy the US Army

that's just how it works.

A military base is the ultimate example of socialism. Everything is provided by the government.

Including dental work, braces, all types of health care.

Oh yes, I also had plenty of dental work and braces.

Thanks, taxpayers!

[noiretextatique]

94. given that so many ordinary citizens don't have insurance

for basic services, like annual exams and pap smears (not too mention mammograms, prostrate screenings, etc) it does seem ODD that taxpayers are footing the bill for lipsuctions and elective breast enhancements.
instead of squandering money like this, wouldn't it make more sense for these doctors to hone their skills on civilian patients, ones who actually need reconstructive surgery?

[Amarant]

96. So US citizens

are going to go all around the world to visit US military docs in - Iraq, Afghanistan, Germany, the Atlantic ocean, England, south korea, whatever other nation we have bases in - just for check ups, pap smears, etc? Wow, that's very nice of them.

I wish people would think things out logically before proposing ideas.

[CatWoman]

99. you should take a little of your own advice

I wish people would think things out logically before proposing ideas.

it's ludicrious to even imagine that's what she was proposing.

[noiretextatique]

100. actually...i was referring to right here

there are bases here in the USA, aren't there? i proposed that military doctors perform reconstructive surgery for civilians who can't afford it to hone their reconstructive surgery skills. that could also applt to civilians overseas.
i suggested that our government should be more concerned about the civilians who can't afford pap smears and annual checkups than enlisted people who want bigger breasts or smaller noses (no offense to those who need reconstructive surgery).
is that logical enough for you to grasp?

[Amarant]

109. That doesn't work out

OK there are bases here. The point is the doctors need to perform EVERYWHERE. What about those abroad? Or were you not looking at the big picture?

[noiretextatique]

122. aren't there civilians abroad?

please STOP mischaracterizing my posts, then claim i am the one who has a comprehension problem...thanks.

[CatWoman]

97. I can't believe all the "people" defending it

:shrug:

[Forkboy]

106. The thread highlighted some,uh,new DUers for me though

and highlighted some older idjit ones too :)

[CatWoman]

107. ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh

the wise ass speaks!!

:hi:

[Forkboy]

108. Yeah,but enough about you

:evilgrin:

:loveya:

[CatWoman]

113. checkmate!!

:loveya:

[redqueen]

124. We certainly do have a lot of them lately

New DUers with *refreshing* differences of opinion, that is.

:)

[Solly Mack]

101. That would be great actually...if practice is needed..there are children

and adults outside the military who need reconstructive surgery and can't afford it.

If they are going to offer custodial cosmetic surgery for enlisting then the money would be better used on those who actually need the surgery...or used for veterans.

If basic training can't reduce the fat in someones ass then it's failing at part of it's mission...to get people into shape.

[Redhead488]

129. And the military does that routinely.

For example, the doctors in Europe frequently participate in MEDFLAGS in Africa where the provide reconstructive surgery to children in need.

[Solly Mack]

133. reconstructive surgery is not custodial cosmetic surgery

they are different and I applaud reconstructive surgery...and in America...there is a need for that as well. In fact, there is a need for that all over the globe.

[Endangered Specie]

102. Trying to get women to sign up I guess...

theyll use anything to get (fool) people into signing up.

[VLC98]

105. Interesting thread, as I'm an Air Force spouse.

When you consider the vast numbers of dependents, 100 liposuctions is not a lot, but my concern is with the term "military" dependents, when this appears to be an Army benefit. Has anyone heard of Air Force dependents receiving elective plastic surgery? I certainly haven't and I might add, the Air Force doesn't do dental work on dependents unless you're overseas or it's an emergency. (My son had a tooth extracted last year when his shitty civilian provider wouldn't see him for 8 weeks).

The health care I've experienced as an Air Force spouse has been mediocre at best. It's a struggle to get an appointment and when you do, it's with an over-worked nurse practitioner. The base I'm at has no emergency room, but I gather not many do nowadays. I'm from England and prefer the crappy NHS.

[hellbound-liberal]

114. But female soldiers who are raped and impregnated

by their commanding officers can not get abortions! Disgusting!

[Redhead488]

128. Name me ONE

female solider raped and impregnated by her commanding officer. Just one.

[vetwife]

117. Catwoman..this is so outrageous ..first time for me beyond words !

But I can think of some really nasty things to say ! They just can't be repeated !

[SoCalDem]

130. "She died for a boob job".. I wonder if this has happened yet..

The other night on the news,they told of one young woman who was ready to get out of the military, but she was informed that she had moved up the list for the boob job she requested, so she re-enlisted..then the war started.. I wonder if any of the ones who re-upped because of this, are kicking themselves in their "un-lipo-ed" behind :(

[Redhead488]

131. That's sad.

[CatWoman]

134. self delete

[Redhead488]

135. Like you?

[redqueen]

137. Nice

Not alerting, because I think people should see this.

:kick:

[Redhead488]

138. Why point mine out and ignore Catwoman's?

A little biased perhaps?