Bowling for Columbine

[Kbowe]

Watched it tonight. Everyone in America should be forced to watch it!

That's all I have to say.

[Fixated]

1. ...

If you like to swallow some lies with your Truth, sure.

[AP]

3. What lies? This was one of the tightest, most well-argued...

...documentaries I've ever seen.

Politicians use fear to convince Americans there are threats which don't exist. It gets them to vote for politicians and policies which aren't in their best interst.

Did you see the movie? Remember the Africanized bees segment?

[RummyTheDummy]

4. It's an excellent film.

In some ways its a documentary but in others it isn't. I think it's indisputable that in parts it portrays many Americans just the way they are. That in effect is documenting something. The part at with Littleton and the Lockheed plant is a broad generalization in my opinion,though.
I think people who don't like i, often don't really understand the genre or don't find non fiction movies interesting in general.
Anyhow, I was more than happy when my fiance' surprised me with a DVD copy tonight when I got home from work. Now if Mike would just release "Roger and Me" on DVD I'm set. Of the two, I think that one is the more profound movie.

[Alenne]

6. Roger and Me is on DVD

released yesterday.

[AP]

8. Whether a movie is a documentary or fiction, it's about an idea

Movies make arguments about something and support that argument with words and pictures. I think Moore did that, and did it really well, using real people, and important ideas and arguments about American culture.

[Fixated]

16. ...

He doctored Heston speeches, lied about the bank giving him the gun immediately, lied about the Lockheed Martin plant near Littleton...

There are plenty of sites on this. Obviously, it wasn't all bad, and I liked a lot of it. I LOVED Stupid White Men, but I read about some lies in there too.

[Randi_Listener]

19. Lockheed Martin plant....

...is within 70 miles of Littleton. I'd say many people that live in the area work at a major corporation like that.

Since you know so much about the lies, please expound for the class.

[Fixated]

20. ....

He said the plant made nukes; it made rockets for satellites. Expounded?

[Randi_Listener]

23. Not yet.

How do you know that none of the parts for a nuclear missile are manufactured or designed at that plant?

[Fixated]

24. ...

Because I read it. Moore never offered rebuttals to the many publications that pointed it out.

[Randi_Listener]

27. Do you really think....

...it's possible to make ICBMs without satellite technology? If you do, I have an iceberg to sell you.

[Fixated]

29. ....

It's building materials used on ACTUAL satellites, not ICBMS. I'm sure you could also melt the metal down and make bombs, but that doesn't mean they're being made there. Go look up the mistakes in Bowling. This is making me look like I think Moore is an idiot, which I don't.

[Randi_Listener]

32. Satellite technology is used HEAVILY.....

...in ICBMs. Actual satellite parts are used in ICBMs, the most deadly of nuclear class weapons. The targeting and flight control systems were developed at that plant.

[Fixated]

34. ...

Source? Please, watch the movie. He says "weapons of mass destruction" are being built there. They aren't. Period. The End. Just bite the bullet on this, dude. You're avoiding the fact the he lied about it.

[Randi_Listener]

37. Bite the bullet?

Nice play on words, "dude".

The ultimate weapon of mass destruction is the ICBM capable of spraying multiple reentry vehicles over a geographical area. The targeting mechanisms and fligh controls were developed at this plant. Source? Let's take a trip back in the time machine to my college classes and the Lockheed rep that addressed our Flight Dynamics II class.

[Fixated]

38. ...

Oh, you went to college! Nevermind then. Believe it or not, not every part of the ICBM system is a WMD. The guy that orders the launch, for example, is not a weapon of mass destruction. Nor is the targeting mechanism.

[Randi_Listener]

41. The targeting is not a WMD?

How do you think these warheads end up over their target of millions of nuclear blast susceptible humans? The very essence of the WMD is the weapon finding it's target. Without that it's a fireworks show.

[Fescue4u]

54. To assert that two kids went on a murder rampage

Because navigation equipment was built nearby is pretty assinine.

The truth is that Moore took the concept of missiles being built nearby and stretched it pretty thin in the first place.

Then when the original fact came to light, that it wasnt missiles, but navigation equipment, that stretched concept became quite ridiculous.

Now Im willing to give Moore the benefit of the doubtw that he simple didnt check his facts on this instance, but the result is essentially the same.

Now on other portions of the film (see my posts below), Moore went well beyond to not checking facts, to outright lies.

[AP]

102. Lockheed is a defense contractor which makes a lot of money...

...from irrational fear of the world. The point Moore was making was that we live in a society in which right wingers create hysteria about things ranging from Africanized bees to whatever (often using race) to convince people to vote for the kind of politicians who give money to Lockheed.

The argument wasn't that the construction of weapons in Littleton led to the Columbine shooting. It was that it was part of a big, obvious nexus.

I think Moore's argument was rock solid.

[Fescue4u]

113. Which is ironic because

school yard shootings are actually quite rare..

A child is 3 times more likely to be hit by lightening than be shot at school.

Its ironic because the logic is circular, irrational fears of things, including school yard shootings causes things like school yard shootings (as according to moore)

Im not sure I buy it, but Im not willing to dismiss it off hand either.

[AP]

115. Actually, the logic is more like this:

In a society in which politicians use fear to convince people to vote for policies that aren't good for them (but are good for defense contractors, the super wealthy, and big money) you get a society that is so scared they all think they need to arm themselves.

So, when you have the inevitable disturbed person go crazy, rather then run around stabbign one or two people and kicking someone, they're well armed (thanks to readily available weapons) and, with all that firing power, they can cause a disproportionate amount of danger.

[Fescue4u]

42. I have a WMD on my DASHBOARD then!!!!

lmao..

I cant believe we are now equating satellite technology with WMD's

Perhaps thats the justification that Bush used to invade Iraq?

Imagine that! Moore and Bush agreeing on something.

btw the WMD on my dash is a gps device.

Face it

Moore lied on this aspect.

[Fixated]

45. ...

Thank you, thank you, thank you. And as for the guy requesting sources, Google it, shouldn't take you long. The New Republic called him on it a while ago.

[U4ikLefty]

50. Oh well...New Republic!!! How could I have questioned?!?

Please forgive me!!! </sarcasm>

[Fixated]

52. ......

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were brighter than those at the New Republic. Well nail them on that! Expose there lies! No one else dared to touch that (perhaps for fear of the centrist machine that is TNR destroying them). Call them up and correct them!

[no_arbusto]

98. Expose "there" lies

There lies (name). Died of a gunshot wound.

[Randi_Listener]

46. Face it.

You have no clue what you are stammering about.

[Fixated]

49. .....

Maybe http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html will help you out. Until then, you're a lost cause, kiddo. If you think every aspect of the WMD process is actually a weapon of mass destruction (kind of like saying the trigger of a gun is a weapon), you're just wrong. Plain and friggin simple.

[Randi_Listener]

51. You haven't refuted one point...

...of mine. Then claim I am wrong. It's you that should hit the "EJECT" button. You're outclassed here.

A missile without flight control, guidance and targeting is ballistic and pretty much worthless for intercontinental, trans-ocean use.

[Fixated]

55. ...

Outclassed? You're only 60% of the word "class" from what I can see. I hate attacking fellow liberals, but everyone cries for sources, and then I give them, and everyone cries some more just for fun. Answer the allegation, don't spew rhetoric. Again, only the bomb itself is the "weapon."

[Randi_Listener]

57. The bomb itself....

....has many components. The flight control, guidance, and targeting is part of the weapon. Now scurry off to Google and find your facts about nuclear weapons, junior. Hold on, let me throw up a website too to link ya to. :rolleyes:

[Fixated]

59. ....

If you took a guidance system and dropped it out of a plane in New York, what would happen?

[Randi_Listener]

60. A FREEPER LINK?!?!

http://www.hardylaw.net/

You send me a link to a goddamn FREEPER then cite that as your source. Jesus H Christ.

I have a better website for you.

www . freerepublic . com

All the Freep links you want are there.

[Fescue4u]

62. Read it carefully

I've read it very carefully with a very skeptical eye.

I have not spotted any inaccuracies in the article.

If you spot some, please enlighten us. (Im quite serious)

[Randi_Listener]

63. You've been duped...

....hoodwinked, run amok, lead astry. I'm starting to feel sorry for you.

And you tell it so well.

[Fixated]

64. ...

Please debunk one point on that site. Try for two, but don't kill yourself over it.

[Randi_Listener]

67. You want to labor over a FREEPER.....

....site, have at it.

I have a better question for you, freepfan. Would John Ashcroft make a suitable President after Dubya in '08?

[Fescue4u]

61. I cant believe that you still hammering on that.

To call every component of a nuke a wmd is simple not true.

If it were, then our garages and homes are full of WMD's

My children have gyroscopes in the toy box. Gyrocopes are an integral part of a missile. Do my children play with WMDs?

My car has a gps, which communiticates with a network of 24 satellites. Is my car a WMD?

I used to play with model rockets. Those had solid fuel motors. Missiles are powered by same technology (but a hella lot bigger!)..I guess I played with WMD's as a child.

The missile is made if metal.....you get the idea.

[Randi_Listener]

65. Like I said....

...you're still stammering on. The guidance, targeting, and flight control are the integral components. What in that goddamn child's toy targets anything? What in your car's gps controls the car's route? What in that model rocket would qualify as feedback control? Your argument is a sieve.

[Fixated]

66. .....

They are integral to a missile, not a WMD.

[Randi_Listener]

69. The missile is the delivery...

...system for the warhead. Together, they form the weapon. A bullet doesn't do shit. An unloaded gun doesn't do shit. Together they form a weapon. Got it yet or ar you still frantically Googling?

[Fixated]

71. ....

Can a WMD be dropped rather than fired with a missile? I'm just curious.

[Randi_Listener]

73. Go setup your ambush....

...somewhere else, Tenderfoot. You tried to use a Freeper as a credible source for anything.

[Fixated]

74. ....

Can you offer a rebuttal or not? Yes or no.

[Randi_Listener]

77. Yes.

If there was a claim made. Is your childish question a claim?

[Fixated]

79. ...

I meant to the site, bucko.

[Randi_Listener]

80. Oh....

...the Freeper site. I don't read freeper sites and won't start now. Offer, with your skilled Googling fingers, a non-freep-slated analysis and I'll take a look at it.

[Fixated]

81. ....

Can't debunk a Freeper site? That's ok, maybe I'll get some easier ones. http://www.revoketheoscar.com/ http://www.sector404.org/archives/2003/04/21/moore_lies_please.php
http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20021119.html

[Randi_Listener]

82. There we go...

...that's a good little Google monkey.

How about a banana now, chimp?

[Fixated]

83. ...

Oh I don't know, how about you debunk those sites and pretend you're not a moron?

[Randi_Listener]

84. Do your own fucking homework....

.....douche. Once you understand missile systems, let me know. M'kay?

[Fixated]

85. ...

Awww, poor little thing. I'll say you're right on missile systems (you're not), so you can pretend I admitted that and go about rebuking everything else like the little investigater you are. Go get 'em tiger!

[Randi_Listener]

86. Mr Google Strikes Again!

You're the same type of person that spends half the night debating if a Terminator robot could really learn like that and why you never see them taking a shit on Star Trek. You get your ass handed to you in an arguement, kick your own ass by posting freeper links, then Google some more bullshit links. Nice work, skippy. Time for you to move out of momma's basement.

[Fixated]

87. ....

You can just say that you don't have a reply. No one will remember it by tomorrow. Those "bullshit" links aren't bullshit until you make it so. Which you can't, because you're not intelligent enough. So debunk something, genius.

[Randi_Listener]

88. All my replies have been....

....chronicled above. You can reread them at your leisure. In the meantime, go guard your orange juice in the 'fridge before your little sister drinks it all.

[Fixated]

89. ....

By "reply" I meant "response to the stuff you say is bullshit." Unless you can respond, this debate is useless, so tackle some facts or go shift your attention to paying off your student loans.

[Randi_Listener]

90. I've already debunked one...

...how many do you want? Or are you sticking to your freeper guns? You relied on Google for your info and I ran that shit up your ass. But keep kicking your own ass. Makes my work easier.

[Fixated]

91. ....

Oh, never more than one! You can sit back and bask in the glory of that sweet victory now. I'm gonna go to bed.

[Randi_Listener]

93. EJECT

Your Google shit has failed you. Better hit the books, cyber-sleuth.

[Fixated]

116. .....

Wow, you never gave up. Idiot.

[SideshowScott]

129. Um all those are right wing sites

Im not saying they are biased..well they are. But all they do is just try to spin its right wing junkie logic..Fact is the DVD will sell like hotcakes and there really is nothing any freeper loveing person can do about it

[Fescue4u]

68. Thats fine..you don't understand...

Very few people understand how complex systems work and the relationship between systems..


Hey, you go on believing the two kids went on a murder rampage because some navigation equipment was manufactured nearby.....

[Randi_Listener]

70. Good use of a strawman there....

....I like it. Can I borrow that sometime?

[Fescue4u]

72. Its not my strawman..

Its Michael Moores

Good job pointing it out though!

[Randi_Listener]

75. Nah....

..you jumped the logical Grand Canyon with that claim you made. Good work, it almost got over.

[U4ikLefty]

76. You mean with logic such as this?!?

"Hey, you go on believing the two kids went on a murder rampage because some navigation equipment was manufactured nearby"

Actually, I got a chuckle out of that one.

[Fescue4u]

78. I don't think so..

Moore's message is that the kids went on a murder rampage, in part because weapons of mass destruction were manufactured nearby.

Now we can both agree that those were the navigation devices for WMD's



Hence MMs argument is that these kids killed because navigation gear was manufactured nearby.


The only thing about this strawman, is that Moore didnt bother to knock it down.


Or, we can assume that MM made a blunder and that he really believed that nukes WERE being manufactured nearby.

Now I give MM credit, he's not stupid. I don't believe his argument was the nav aids make kids kill. I believe he implied that nukes encourages the kids to kill.

[Zuni]

92. What do you not understand?

satellite equitment is built there. not missles.
You lost the argument.

[wtmusic]

101. Good God Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Look at the size of this thread...and based on what!

Yeah Moore overstepped his bounds, lied, whatever...to make his point. End of fucking story. Pahleez.

[magnolia]

105. Yeah!

Why all the quibbling! I loved the movie, thought it was great. The Lockheed bit went right over my head. I don't think it matters what they build, etc...it doesn't take anything away from the point of the movie.

Why would anyone think that it was Lockheed that caused the two kids to go on a killing rampage! They did it because of BOWLING! Sheesh...pay attention.

[U4ikLefty]

40. Why don't you provide sources.

You made a lot of assertions about the movie. Could you please back them up with some links.

[Generic Other]

118. Check out Lockeheed Martin's own webpage

What the hell do you think a fucking strategic missile is for? A butt probe?


http://lmms.external.lmco.com/

on edit:

<snip>Lockheed Martin is a world leader in systems engineering, integration and the development of air and missile defense systems and technologies including the first operational hit-to-kill missile defense system. It also has considerable experience in launch vehicles; interceptor systems; kill vehicles; battle management command, control and communications; precision pointing and tracking optics; as well as radar and other sensors, which enable signal processing and data fusion. The company makes significant contributions to all major U.S. Missile Defense Systems and participates in several global missile defense partnerships.<snip>

They are murderers no matter what plant they work at.

[Fixated]

121. ...

It's for launching standard satellites. You know, the ones that can float up there and not explode into a mushroom cloud.

[Generic Other]

122. Tactical missiles, ballistic missiles, airborne lasers

These fucks are in the death business. They have undertaker's hands.

And when they aren't creating WMDs, they are siphoning off money from government contracts that could provide life to Americans rather than bring death to all.

I certainly can't find one example of a life enhancing product this company has ever provided Americans.

All people who work in or for the defense industry in any capacity: soldier, plant worker, general, taxpayer--all of us are war criminals. This is doubly true when there are among us those who go to bed hungry at night, or those who need medical care and are denied. Our inhumanity and arrogance is sickening.

I don't want to hear another word about how Michael Moore lies about the military industrial complex. He'd have to do it 24/7 for the rest of his life to approach the level of lies that I have been fed by warchanting, chestbeating, flesh charring, bone crunching, savage merchants of death.

I hate them. I cheer a man like Michael Moore for throwing blood on the death peddlers. I delight in the fact that he exposed the senile old Charlton Heston for what he was. A dangerous old man who has access to loaded guns when he should be under lock and key in a nursing home! A man who said the real enemy in America was ethnic minorities. Yeah, I'm sure it was all just Michael Moore moving the strings on Heston's mouth like a ventriliquist's dummy.

You people who constantly must prove the so-called "lies" in Moore's films sound like you've perfected the smear tactic once used on Gore by the GOP. But it's you who have no credibility with me. You wouldn't recognize a lie if George W. Bush came up to you and shat one out on the ground in front of you. Defend Lockheed, Heston and George if you like.

The rest of us will keep buying, reading and watching Moore.

[Fixated]

124. ....

I'm aware of the overall goals of Lockheed Martin, thank you for the speech, though. That wasn't an issue.

[Generic Other]

125. No you are just fixated on measuring yours against Moore's

Hint: His is bigger. Whether we are talking dicks or intellect.

He sells books and films. You bait people on DU.

[Fixated]

126. ....

Oh, he sells books! So does Ann Coulter, who I'm sure is always right. Just because she sells books. I'm not baiting anyone. If you want to argue like an idiot, I'll let you know it. If I'm up against someone who is intelligent and perhaps not a slave to weak thinking, I'll give them a great deal of respect.

[Generic Other]

128. Moore is to Coulter as Mother Theresa is to Charles Manson!

Moore presents an artistic expression of his political views in the documentary. He is using satire as a valid political tool. Artistic license means he can annoy, bullyrag, irritate, torment, nag, poke, prod, pummel, and kick the shit out of any rightwing windbag he wants to. And I will hoot and holler and beg for more! A whole lot of people find his work rather remarkable for its veracity.

Truth has a way of uncovering those who try to bury it. The more they shovel on, the more is revealed. Call Moore a liar as loud as you can. It draws attention. But he's not the one who is exposed.

Discrediting Moore, and Gore, and Hilary--it's become a cottage industry...anyone liberal must be discredited as "a slave to weak thinking."

That way the truths told by Bush, Rummy, Coulter and the rest of the gang will be palatable for those who have a taste for self-delusion.

I will rise to the defense of any leftwing artist who is attacked for speaking out against the current fascists in power.

[sujan]

127. read this...and shut up

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/8/12/171427/607

[ryharrin]

47. I don't remember the part where he mentioned nukes.

He did say weapons of mass destruction though. The lockheed guy didn't correct him on that.

[Capn Sunshine]

48. This is artistic license

it's one of those "tricks " moviemakers use to make their film more entertaining.

Imagine taking Hestons actual words and making something freaky with them. Oh, boy that's a real stretch!

And I suppose you would want him waiting for three days for the Post Office to deliver the gun the bank gave him.

Hey, THAT would be entertainment.

It's not advertised as news; its a filmmakers point of view.

Oh yeah, you're used to the absolute truth we see in news every day, that's it isn't it.

[Fescue4u]

58. Artistic license, tricks, special effects

Are wonderful additions to fiction.

But to add them to a "documentary" is not.

BFC is more accurately, IMO a parody of America, and the gun culture in particular. Not documentary.

[AP]

112. This isn't true at all.

Look at Thin Blue Line, the documentary about the guy in TX who was on death row for a crime he didn't commit. The documentary was true, and so persuasive that it got the guy's conviction reversed.

That DOCUMENTARY is loaded with tricks, music, special effects (the music by Phillip Glass is amazing and meant to create a certain emotion; scenes are recreated with actors; there are lighting effects and editing and cross cutting). All these effects are meant to help the filmmaker make his argument about what he thinks the truth is. It seems like some people here only want to call that a documentary if they agree with the filmmakers idea of what the truth is. I say it's a documentary either way, and I'm free to disagree with it either way.

There was a documentary movement which thought that these "tricks" were bad, so they'd make documentaries that didn't use music, lighting, actors or whatever. They soon discovered that just the decision to point the camera at something was an editorial choice, and the fact that you can't film everything forces you to make a certain argument about an idea.

What Michael Moore did is no different from any other documentary. If you don't agree with his argument, that's fine. But the argument against him isn't that the movie is fiction or that it isn't a documentary. It's definitely a documentary of how real people live life in a real America.

[gully]

100. It was a docu-drama...not a documentary.

No lies, 'drama'...

[Touchdown]

104. BZZZ! Wrong!

I live in Denver. LHM is within 6 miles from Columbine High School. It's in Jefferson County, which is next to Arapahoe Country, where Littleton is. It's off of C-470, just before you get to Red Rocks Amplitheater. They are ALL in the Denver Metro Area.:eyes:

[Sirius_on]

123. Its been debunked quite well

A good majority of BFC was spliced sound bites that made his opponent look bad. I saw a really good website about it and it was undeniable.

[Maple]

2. An excellent movie

Saw it tonight as well

From a Canadian perspective, it was absolutely stunning.

I was dumbfounded

[RummyTheDummy]

5. We're a little nuts here aren't we Maple?

I think if you can point to the big picture that Moore is trying to paint, that's it. And he nailed it.

[Maple]

7. Well the Canadian segment

was perfectly normal to me. I have guns. So does everybody I know.

They're for hunting, or target practice.

But the level of guns, and the fear in the US...it just dumbfounded me.

As the Brits say...I was 'gobsmacked' over the whole movie

[DoctorMyEyes]

9. we watched it tonight too

and I couldn't agree more - everyone should be required to watch it!

Did you watch all of the "extras" too? I cried twice during the segment of his visit to Denver six months after the release of the movie.

It's all true! I don't care about sniveling little details that the detractors focus on like that it actually took 2 or 3 days to receive the gun from the bank when he opened an account.

That wasn't the point. Was he supposed to film all those hours waiting for the background check?

[Meph]

56. it is true...

That in the movie Moore is guilty of exageration and some lies by ommission. The case of the gun being sold at the bank is one of them. He didn't get it instatnly but that still doesn't nullify the concept that it's nuts for a bank to be offering guns.

[wtmusic]

10. Saw it too

Broke down when they showed the murdered boy's picture while his father was speaking. You get sappy like that when you have one of your own.

The movie centers around the question of why Americans murder rate is so much higher than other nations. The expected simple answer is access to guns, but it's not a simple answer (Canadians have more guns per capita--there are some interesting interviews with Canadians on this subject). More blame is laid at the feet of television news and shows like "Cops" and the relentless emphasis on the coverage of violence.

Moore's biggest fault is to draw conclusions on not entirely conclusive evidence. FE, he HAMMERS K-Mart for selling ammo to the kids at Columbine, while ammo is available at many retail outlets.

Re the Heston interview: yeah, he has first-stage Alzheimer's, but I don't give a damn. He's a racist pig and tried to suggest "ethnicity" for the cause of handgun violence in this country. Fuck him.

The film shines a bright light at the paranoia and fear which grips the right, and has many great moments. A must-see.

[theboss]

106. Heston is no racist

The man marched with MLK for God's sake. He's extreme when it comes to gun rights, but he's hardly a racist.

[sujan]

130. really?

so what's up with him stating that "mixed ethnicity" was one of the reasons why the U.S. has so much violence...I dont care whom you walked with, even Judas was one of Jesus's best buddies.

[magnolia]

107. I thought the Kmart bit...

...was well done. Sure, lots of places sell ammo...but you can't hammer all of them. He chose Kmart because he could connect it with Columbine. It sets an example to other ammo outlets...it says, this time it was Kmart's ammo that killed kids, next time it might be yours.

[Fescue4u]

114. Heston is hardly a racist..

But Moore does a good job of implying that. I guess that helps Moore sell movies, since Heston is favorite target for the gun control zealots.

A quick snipet about Hestons "racism":

The remarks stem from Heston's answer (after Moore keeps pressing for why the US has more violence than other countries) that it might be due to the US "having a more mixed ethnicity" than other nations, and "We had enough problems with civil rights in the beginning." A viewer who accepts Moore's theme that gun ownership is driven by racial fears might conclude that Heston is blaming blacks and the civil rights movement.

But if you look at some history missing from Bowling, you get exactly the opposite picture. Heston is talking, not about race, but about racism. In the early 1960s, the civil rights movement was fighting for acceptance. Civil rights workers were being murdered. The Kennedy Administration, trying to hold together a Democratic coalition that ranged from liberals to fire-eater segregationists such as George Wallace and Lester Maddox, found the issue too hot to touch, and offered little support.

Heston got involved. He picketed discriminating restaurants. He worked with Martin Luther King, and helped King break Hollywood's color barrier (yes, there was one.). He led the actors' component of King's 1963 march in Washington, which set the stage for the key civil rights legislation in 1964.


Calling Heston a racist is ridiculous, unless of course you buy Moores crap verbatim.

[JasonBerry]

11. Waiting for mine from Netflix

Mine is on the way according to Netflix and I CAN'T WAIT! I've wanted to see BFC for sooo long. I also saw where Roger & Me is also out now on DVD. Netflix is great, by the way - unlimited DVDs a month for $19.95 - three out at a time, no due dates and they arrive within three days of your order complete with postage paid envelope back to Netflix. When they receive one back, they ship the next DVD in your "queue" which can hold up to 500 prioritized DVDs you want to see (out of their collection of over 15,000). At $19.95 a month - it's cheap entertainment; one night at the movies really.

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

12. been trying to rent it for months-no luck anywhere/not @ blockbuster

where can I rent it? where can I buy it?

[wtmusic]

14. Just came out today

you're in LA, right? Try Blockbuster, if you haven't already today. My copy was the last in the Burbank store. I guess that's one benefit of living in a conservative community...

[ConsAreLiars]

13. DVD version adds a lot

Moore has used the space on the DVD to go beyond commentary and extra clips to turn the thing into a resource, including a teacher's guide. See: http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php

And everyone Should see it, if you haven't, right-wing lies notwithstanding.

[Nomad559]

15. Kaaza

I downloaded a copy about 3 months ago on kaaza, I agree It's a GREAT movie.

I'm going to buy the DVD tomorrow.:7

[pstokely]

17. Roger and Me is also out on DVD

it shoulda had Pets or Meat on it

[monobrau]

18. One problem I had

Was the implied connection between the founding of the NRA and the KKK. Sure, I can believe that there was some over-lapping membership, but not a shred of evidence was offered that would connect those organizations. This is why Moore ends up with credibility problems.

The Heston segment was right on, and there is no reason to cut the president of the NRA any slack. Anyone in that position had damn well better be ready to answer some hard questions, and Heston's attitude didn't surprise me in the least.

Overall the message of the movie was an important one, and it's not anti-gun. It poses the most important question before this nation, and it doesn't pretend to have the answer.
Why are we so violent?

[Randi_Listener]

21. NRA and KKK...

....sounds like Moore hit a little to close to home for you.

[monobrau]

31. Would you care to elaborate?

Or are you just being a smart-ass?

[Fescue4u]

22. 3/4 of is was great

the last 1/4 was pretty patheticly horrid

Moore's ideas on public fear and media manipulation were spot on.

But then towards the end he whigs out and declares "with all this fear, people shouldnt have guns laying around" (rough quote),

then the rest is filled with amusing, but pointless stunts like "returning bullets to kmart".

Then he essentially outright lies by claim that Heston came to Detroit immediately after the little girl was killed by another child, when in fact such visit was a campaign stop 9 months later.

The attack at the on Heston at the end was pathetic and shameful.

On a scale of 1 to 10, I give the first 1/2 to 3/4 a "10", and the last 1/4 a "-1"

I would imagine though that if you are an anti-gun zealot, the last 1/4 which was filled with lies and stunts was proably quite exciting, but not for me.

[Randi_Listener]

25. Another Heston fan.

Jolly good show, mate.

[Fixated]

26. ......

Not buying the lies about Heston doesn't make you a Heston fan. If someone said "Bush eats babies!" and I said "No he doesn't," that doesn't mean I love Bush.

[Randi_Listener]

28. Lies?

Going to his house and requesting an interviews is lying? What dictionary are you working from?

[Fixated]

30. ...

Believe it or not, there were other segments involving Heston. I use Webster, did you watch the movie?

[Randi_Listener]

33. I own the movie.

He was referring to the "attack" on Heston at the end of the movie at his house.

[Fixated]

35. ....

Well I was referring to the lies about Heston (who I DON'T like) and the altering of his speeches through video editing. Since you were replying to me, perhaps you could give that a thought.

[Randi_Listener]

39. Let's throw the baby out....

....with the bathwater since you think the film is fraught with lies.

[Fescue4u]

44. Personally, I didnt do that.

As I said 3/4s of the film is fantastic and had me glued to my seat.

The last 1/4 had my mouth wide open as I gasped at their idiocy, smugness and outright lies.

[Fescue4u]

36. Me? Heston fan?

Well I did enjoy Planet of the apes.

Actually Im no longer a member of the NRA even, frankly I got sick of their constant begging for donations.

Anyway to address your point, the interview was quite dishonest and heavily edited (watch the clock).

The scene of Moore leaving behind a picture of the girl was pathetically shameful.

(not to mention journalistically unethical, see BFC fact sites where it points out that that scene was NOT serially filmed, but staged long after Heston was gone, while Mike called out as though he was there)

Heston had no hand in that horrible accident, nor did Heston show up in the area 48 hours after the accident occured (which Moore lied about).

Heston went to the area 9 MONTHS after the accident on a completly unrelated trip.

In the interview Moore asked Heston why he went there and Moore did a good job of manipulating Heston quite understandable confusion into a show of apparently dishonesty.

[OldEuropean]

43. Great fun

to watch the movie. When I saw it first in theatres here in Germany, the entire audience went ROFL when Heston said "America has a more violent history than Europe".

Yes, Michael Moore does exagerate some stuff but you should always be skeptical when watching documentaries, news etc..

Stupid White Men was great fun to read aswell, the first half of it. Then it degenerates into silly bashing somewhat.

[Kellanved]

97. the DVD cover looks a little different here...

[magnolia]

108. Let me test my German....

...the byline was something like:

You've never before seen America like this.

[Kellanved]

110. correct - the candidate has 100 points

:hi:
And it was published on July 3rd here .

[magnolia]

111. I'm so proud of myself!

I have cousins in Freiburg...they would be proud too.

[ryharrin]

53. I work at blockbuster, and I've been trying to hype it up for a week now.

People are turned off when they hear its a documentary, but when I explain how funny it is, they give it a try.

[ErasureAcer]

94. Watched my copy tonight...

saw it once in the theaters, then watched it illegally by downloading it(hey, the damn thing took forever to come out!), and then I bought my copy today.

I love this film, one of my top 10. I also bought Roger and Me today as well.

the extras on the disc are great...moore's very sincere monologue about his acceptance speech is very good, the camera never cuts away! His return to Denver is very good as well...he mentions how the democrats suck as a party...but also says that Bush must go in 2004.

Anyhow, the movie is simply great...my favorite part is the whole Louis Armstrong song with America's violence across the world in the past 50 years...culminating with the 2 towers exploding...

America gets what it deserves.

Anyhow, Moore is a genius...I hope he comes out and endorses Dennis J. Kucinich for president. Dennis holds many green party stances...and Moore in his Denver speech basically says "the green party is what america wants" or something to that extent.

Anyhow, can't wait for his next film and didn't someone say he has a new book coming out? I also thought he talked about it in one of the extras...how to bring the conservatives around on the right(or shall I say left) side of the fence on issues.

Can't wait for Farenheit 911: the temperature where democracy burns. Should be pretty damn good, and just in time for Kucinich vs Bush. Perfect to get show Bush as a liar and that Kucinich's vision of America(unlike the other dem candidates) of cutting pentagon spending and peace will show the people of America who doesn't lead by fear and war but by unity and peace.

Dennis Kucinich 04
www.kucinich.us

Vote your conscience.

[tjdee]

95. Actually, Moore has said he likes Clark and hope he runs.n/t

[ErasureAcer]

96. I read that in a forum and then someone said he said it sarcastically...

anyhow, I won't be supporting Clark...I'll be supporting Kucinich...even after whomever Moore decided to endorse(if anyone).

So I really don't give a rats ass who Moore supports...it would be good for Kucinich's profile if he got Moore's support though...which I think he could...but in the end, with or without it...Kucinich will be the Democratic Nominee for President.

[tjdee]

109. Nope--here's the exact quote:

"I would love to see this. There's a four-star general . . . he used to be the commander of NATO. His name is Wesley Clark. He was a Rhodes scholar. He's a Democrat. He would repeal the Bush tax cut for the rich. He submitted a brief in support of affirmative action to the Supreme Court. He's pro-choice. I could go down the list, and he's actually quite good on all the issues -- and he's a general. I would just love to see the debate between the general and the deserter. (Applause.) So if the Democrats really wanted to win, they should run somebody who could win -- and that would be an interesting race."

Listen to it yourself, here's the link (it's about 14:35):
http://www.radio4all.net/proginfo.php?id=7594

on edit, the link seems not to work, I got the link from here (it's other places too):
http://wesleyclark.blogspot.com/2003_08_01_wesleyclark_archive.html#106105197773853245

I know, it's weird--but I'm sure he thinks highly of Kucinich as well.
No doubt he is closer to Kucinich on most issues.

[Fla_Democrat]

99. Forced to watch it?

"Watched it tonight. Everyone in America should be forced to watch it!

That's all I have to say."






Force, isn't it grand? :-(

[Catherine Vincent]

103. My sis is having a special screening at her house this weekend!

She already told everyone to be at her house this saturday to watch it!

[Yentatelaventa]

117. Try forcing people to watch it

Just don't run on that platform please. The movie is a farce and over-edited. Makes most gun owners look like morons.

[Kazak]

119. At gunpoint?

[0rganism]

120. Forced to watch it? I don't think so

It's a decent documentary, objections raised by anti-Moore zealots notwithstanding. It's well worth the price of admission, IMHO. But FORCED? That's absurd.